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Post by Counting Crows on Jun 14, 2010 11:19:38 GMT
If/when Matjaz Kek leaves the Slovenia job i suggest we give him a whirl. Slovenia's population is smaller that Wales' yet he's got them to the World Cup (beating Russia in a play-off, hello!) and the Slovenian squad is noticeably devoid of 'stars'. The only downside is that on the evidence of the Algeria game Kek may use the same defensive tactics as Tosh...  Seriously though, our next manager should be one of these managers whose knows international management like the back their hand. Managers who've taken 'middle-of-the-road' national sides to world cups. There are plenty out there. I mean Hiddink has taken the Turkey job! |
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Post by Tim P on Jun 14, 2010 12:13:45 GMT
turkey are far bigger than us though - both in terms of success and population. but yes, i agree with your point in general terms.
in terms of the 'stars', riddle me this:
would Wales be better off with...
our current squad
OR
a 30 man player base, all born and raised in Wales, and playing at championship level.
of course, a lot depends on who the manager is, but i think its an interesting question all the same.
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Post by flynnfan on Jun 14, 2010 13:02:39 GMT
Well, obviously, I would like Brian Flynn to be the next manager. But I can certainly see the appeal of appointing someone who has done the business with a small nation( Trendy is right btw- Turkey are a huge nation- they'll be paying Hiddink a lot more than we can afford)
If Flynn takes the U21s to the Euro's for the first time in our history though, wouldn't that be huge success with a small nation?? ( see also taking Wrexham to FA cup QF, victories over Arsenal, West Ham, Birmingham, Middlesborough etc for further evidence of success with limited resources)
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Post by llannerch on Jun 14, 2010 20:39:06 GMT
Well, obviously, I would like Brian Flynn to be the next manager. But I can certainly see the appeal of appointing someone who has done the business with a small nation( Trendy is right btw- Turkey are a huge nation- they'll be paying Hiddink a lot more than we can afford) If Flynn takes the U21s to the Euro's for the first time in our history though, wouldn't that be huge success with a small nation?? ( see also taking Wrexham to FA cup QF, victories over Arsenal, West Ham, Birmingham, Middlesborough etc for further evidence of success with limited resources) But couldn't beat Chesterfield in that FA Cup QF; was sacked by Swansea amid rumours of player revolts; couldn't take Wrexham to the next step; didn't take the U21s to Sweden; has never managed at Championship level.... He's a nice guy and he's doing a brilliant job where he is...but that's where he should stay |
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Post by cilmeri on Jun 15, 2010 12:00:12 GMT
Couldn't beat Chesterfield, but beat West Ham & Ipswich that year, and Arsenal previously, so not sure what you're trying to say?
Took Wrexham further than a club that size has any rights to expect. Missed out on the play-offs on goals scored (1 goal I think). The problem as usual with these things is heightened expectations following over-achievement.
Sparky, for all his tactical faults at the time, had no experience and brought us closer than for many years, and the Real Madrid manager is taking us further away - Flynn has done a pretty amazing job so far, clearly has a passion for Wales and has tons of managing experience. If it's not Flynn it has to be an experienced, proven manager on the international scene, and here I'm talking about the likes of Hiddink (and that French guy who i can't remember)
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Post by flynnfan on Jun 15, 2010 13:59:05 GMT
Something that occurs to me is that Matjak Kez might have done such a good job with Slovenia because he is Slovenian. Not just in terms of the pride I guess he has in doing the job, it's also that he would have massive in depth knowledge of Slovenian football. Obviously, those things would not apply if he was Wales manager. I've got massive respect for what he's done there, but I don't think its a case of having a magic wand that he uses to get small nations to world cups. And does he even speak English? (or Welsh?!)
If you've watched the smaller European nations in the world cup so far (Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Denmark) its noticable to me that they've all been bit ..er .. boring. (and don't expect Switzerland to buck this trend - they've score 2 goals in their last 5 games) I don't want to be to disparaging- respect to them all for qualifying- but none of them play an expansive game, none of them score loads of goals. What seems to have got them there is oragnisation (especially in defence), the players are all decent athletes who can run all day, a willingness to work hard for each other and the team ,and all the players have decent technical ability (especially in midfield)
But non of them play breathtaking, exciting football- it's all very pragmatic stuff. And if we're going to go down this root with a 'foreign' manager I reckon Roy Hodgson should be the man we go for. Loads of success with limited resources playing with highly organised teams. He took Switzerland to 2 major chamionships- WC 94 and Euro 96, when they hadn't qualified for anything since the 60s. Would have an in depth knowledge of our players and actually might want to prove a point to the FA when he is (inevitably) overlooked for the England job for not being 'high profile' enough. Plus, he might actaully get a decent performance or two out of Simon Davies...
Flynnie should still be the man though.
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Post by Tim P on Jun 15, 2010 15:49:26 GMT
flynn - that is why i raised my point about the fantasy squad choice scenario. greece won the euros - WON THEM - and, although i'd be happy to be corrected, i dont think they had any players at 'big' european clubs, just hard working, committed pros.
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Post by flynnfan on Jun 15, 2010 16:33:12 GMT
Yeah, good point Trendy- its interesting when you look around at some of the big players from Europe who aren't at this WC. I'm talking about people who have won european trophies and major league titles. There's no Sweden (so no Ibramimovic), no Russia (Arshavin), no Bosnia (Dzeko), no Bulgaria (Berbatov), no Croatia (Olic). We do have European teams at this world cup with no star names though.
Have to say that I hope we'll actually shine if we do get to a major tournament though, so I think I'd rather keep the special players (the likes of Ramsey and Bale, who will be providing us with years of top entertainment following Wales) than swap them for a busload of Carl Fletchers...
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Post by llannerch on Jun 15, 2010 19:51:58 GMT
Couldn't beat Chesterfield, but beat West Ham & Ipswich that year, and Arsenal previously, so not sure what you're trying to say? Quite simple really...people think Flynn should get the top job because he is doing a good job with the U21s; and then selectively pick the odd cup victory here and there as further proof of his merits. Surely a more measured analysis of his record should be carried out. I was merely putting forward some facts to balance that analysis out. For me, the fact he's never coached higher than League 1 is his major fault. How about Paul Trollope for next coach. He ticks more or less the same boxes doesn't he? |
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Post by llannerch on Jun 15, 2010 19:56:04 GMT
the smaller European nations in the world cup so far (Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Denmark) All of these countries might be small but they all have decent world cup and Euro champs pedigree as part of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia (and its various permutations) |
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Post by flynnfan on Jun 15, 2010 22:03:44 GMT
The Republic of Ireland didn't have much of a football pedigree until their first tournamanet qualification, in 1988. They've been to 3 world cups since.
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Post by Counting Crows on Jun 16, 2010 11:18:13 GMT
I used Kek as an example primarily and i do understand that the Turkish national side has surpassed Wales in the past 25-odd years (i remember England thumping them in qualifying games).
I'm thinking of people such as:
Bora Milutinović - taken 5 countries to World Cup finals.
Philippe Troussier - won two tournaments and took Japan to the WC.
Anyway, unfortunately, all this WC stuff has got be excited for the qualifies - not sure why! Gonna get the Gold Membership too.
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Post by llannerch on Jun 16, 2010 12:03:46 GMT
Bora Milutinovic - taken 5 countries to World Cup finals. If by this you mean Milutinovic has qualified 5 times, think again Milutinovic only qualified once - with China. Mexico and USA didn't need to as they were hosts; and he took over Nigeria and Costa Rica on the eve of the tournament. Still, let not the facts get in the way of believing the hype |
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Post by Tim P on Jun 16, 2010 12:07:30 GMT
i have previously dismissed flynn's club management record - and i stand by that.
however - i dont think a club record is applicable to international footie. flynn has earnt a chance at the full job, and i think he'll get it.
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Post by llannerch on Jun 16, 2010 12:08:18 GMT
On the DS board, it would be unheard of for a 'next Wales manager' thread to reach 13 posts without any mention of Lawrie Sanchez.
This board still has some way to go to scale the heights of sheer silliness that the old board did
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Post by saints19 on Jun 16, 2010 14:40:36 GMT
Flynn should get it next. I think most people are agreed that the job he's done with our under-21s has been nothing short of excellent and we should encourage promotin from within if it is justified. But if it doesn't work out for him, we could try Brian Kerr. He's managing the Faroe Islands at the moment so would definitely regard us as a step up. And his record for the Republic of Ireland was pretty solid - he didn't qualify them for anything but couldn't have come much closer than he did. And he did a lot better than Staunton. Plus, he'd be cheap.
Sanchez wouldn't be that ridiculous an appointment. His relative failure at Fulham is hard to read too much into, because a) he didn't get enough time there and b) international football requires a different set of skills to club football. You'd have to say his record with Northern Ireland speaks for itself, and he might reasonably be able to apply the strategy he used there (well organised, high tempo football, success at home) to our side, especially with the CCS having the potential to mimic Windsor Park as a home venue where we can generate a decent atmosphere.
The guys CC mentions (Kek, Militunovic, Troussier) would all be worth considering because of their consistent track records, but might demand a higher salary than those guys mentioned above. Language and culture would also be an issue.
Roy Hodgson recently turned down Liverpool, according to reports. It'd be some coup if we could get him, but I think we have to set our eyes on more realistic targets.
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Post by Counting Crows on Jun 17, 2010 11:11:38 GMT
If by this you mean Milutinovic has qualified 5 times, think againI didn't mean qualified, so put your handbag away  I'm trying to illustrate that there are many managers out there who have a good track record of managing international teams. Tosh's record isn't great and i believe it's now time for a change. I'd prefer our manager to be Welsh, but there isn't anyone out there with a good track record. If we lose our opening 3 matches of qualifying (and thus put qualification out of reach once more) then i believe Flynn should be put in charge. He can't do any harm and he may prove to be the 'one'.
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Post by Tim P on Jun 17, 2010 11:58:57 GMT
saints - i would have to disagree with sanchez. i think he's just awful, and i would be stunned if he ever has any success again.
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Post by saints19 on Jun 17, 2010 14:07:52 GMT
Trendy, whilst I respect your right to disagree, I would ask what the basis is of your writing Sanchez off so devastatingly.
As far as I can see, his record with teams that aren't Fulham is perfectly decent.
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Post by llannerch on Jun 17, 2010 21:24:58 GMT
Wycombe fans think he's joke.
NI had about 4 good results at home under him....but couldn't win away (still can't for that matter) and they also plumbed some depths like being whalloped by Iceland twice. He also fell out with players.
Your selective memory of the Ebgland and Spain results is ins pite of the rest of his record. He has no tactical nous whatsoever. None.
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Post by llannerch on Jun 17, 2010 21:27:49 GMT
we could try Brian Kerr. He's managing the Faroe Islands at the moment so would definitely regard us as a step up. Indeed it would be....but ask yourself this: why has he stepped down so far in the first place? |
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Post by flynnfan on Jun 17, 2010 21:52:39 GMT
I tend to agree with your views on Sanchez and Kerr, but who would you like to be the next manager, llannerch?
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Post by saints19 on Jun 18, 2010 10:40:15 GMT
Wycombe fans think he's joke. NI had about 4 good results at home under him....but couldn't win away (still can't for that matter) and they also plumbed some depths like being whalloped by Iceland twice. He also fell out with players. Your selective memory of the England and Spain results is ins pite of the rest of his record. He has no tactical nous whatsoever. None. Well, from where I'm looking at it, that's an extremely harsh assessment of Sanchez's record, which overall reads pretty favourably in my view. He basically had two qualifying campaigns with Northern Ireland. In the 2006 World Cup qualifiers they managed 9 points from ten games, but this was a significant improvement on the previous campaign under Sammy McIlroy where they managed just 3 points from 8 games, with no goals scored, and finished bottom of their group. The England win gave their campaign a bit of a gloss to it, granted, but still a much improved effort. Then in the 2008 campaign they improved again, 20 points from 12 games, including wins over Sweden and Denmark at home, and draws away to those sides, which puts to bed your implied argument that Northern Ireland effectively were a team that only performed at home under Sanchez. Those results are more representative of their campaign than the results against Iceland, in my opinion, but either way, if you take the campaign as a whole, the performance was very good. I just don't see how you can argue against that. Sanchez left them in a far superior position to when he took over. His record for Wycombe wasn't that bad either, winning a third of your games is generally regarded as being pretty good. I'd give him a chance. As for Kerr, his record is pretty good too. He kept up with qualification pace in the Euro 2004 qualifiers having come into the job after McCarthy lost the first two games. His 2006 campaign was basically ruined by the draws with Israel, which by all accounts Ireland were unlucky in. as to those who ask why he's dropped so low - does it matter? Flynn has come from a very mediocre club career to his current post. I say, if they display ability, give them a chance. |
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Post by cilmeri on Jun 18, 2010 11:08:50 GMT
Sanchez "did a sparky" though didn't he, leaving NI half way through a group when the Fulham job was offered - he'd do that to Wales as well given half a chance. And in some respects I don't blame them as the money would be a whole lot better. I get the feeling though that Flynn would be in it for the long haul.
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Post by llannerch on Jun 18, 2010 12:06:45 GMT
I tend to agree with your views on Sanchez and Kerr, but who would you like to be the next manager, llannerch? Who would I like? Guardiola, O'Neill, Wenger, Lippi, Deschamps Who would I be happy with? A coach who has a track record of qualifying for major tournaments (so not a coach-for-hire like Milutinovic); with a long track record of coaching at a range of levels incl club, age grade and international; tactically sound. Perhaps: Tommy Söderberg Kek Mirko Joziæ Ottmar Hitzfeld Roy Hodgson Jacques Santini Moten Olsen Ronald Koeman I think it will be Speed though, with Flynn acting in a mentoring role of some description. |
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Post by saints19 on Jun 18, 2010 12:42:59 GMT
To be brutally honest, we would not get Hitzfeld in a million years. His reputation will be soaring now if it wasn't already after the Swiss win the other day. Added to that he's won the Champions' League twice. I think we could forget about getting him.
Hodgson as stated before also a bit unrealistic. He'll take a job with a top 6 Premiership team or stick with Fulham over managing us.
Some interesting candidates on your list though.
Söderberg - could maybe get him, but would he get the best out of a team like Wales? Hard to say, as the success he's had with Sweden has come with better teams than both ourselves and the current Swedish team.
Kek - interesting idea, had some success in his current job with a nation comparable to ourselves, language would be an issue though, for him and us.
Santini - All I know of him is his failure at Spurs. Doesn't bode too well for succeeding with British football. Plus, would probably not be interested.
Don't know anything about the others to be honest.
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Post by saints19 on Jun 18, 2010 12:44:25 GMT
Sanchez "did a sparky" though didn't he, leaving NI half way through a group when the Fulham job was offered - he'd do that to Wales as well given half a chance. And in some respects I don't blame them as the money would be a whole lot better. I get the feeling though that Flynn would be in it for the long haul. Oh, I'd agree, give Flynn the job first. But Sanchez would be a good bet if Flynn turns out to be out of his depth with the national team. (no reason why he should be, just in case he is) |
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Post by flynnfan on Jun 18, 2010 15:12:12 GMT
Funny how no-one on here seems to want media choice Ryan Giggs to get the job?! ..wonder if Abban-donut-o cares what the fans think? I can see there being a real western fail push to get him the job, and it wouldn't suprise me if marketing man Johnny Ford decides to go with the media darling.. I'd prefer Speed to get the job ahead of Giggs- at least he has SOME coaching experience, at least he actually turned up when picked for Wales...
Talk of Hitzfeld is interesting- not that I think he'd want the job, or that the FAW would even think to try and get him. Its just that maybe Roy Hodgson could be our Hitzfeld? Hitzfeld isn't Swiss, he's German, but has been overlooked for the Germany job. He had a long career of club success, but fancied international management as a sort of semi-retirement thing. Maybe if Hodgson is overlooked for the England job when Capello goes and isn't given a shot at a top premiership club, he might fancy managing us as a sort of semi-retirement thing? I don't know, but he's managed Switzerland and Finland in the past and we're not that much less attractive as a proposition than those two (in fact, with the Ramsey, Bale, Collison generation coming to the fore we might even be a MORE attractive proposition) Remember, Switzerland hadn't qualified for anything since the 60's before he took over.
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Post by squatter1 on Jun 18, 2010 16:21:06 GMT
Come on, stop this talk of foreign managers. A Welsh manager for the Welsh team. This should really be the starting point for any discussion about this. Especially at this point in time where we are relatively blessed with Welsh pro managers that could feasibly do the job.
Flynn. (my favourite)
Hughes. (would be happy to see back, but doubt would ever happen)
Coleman. (I'd be prepared to see him have a go, but still skeptical about his ability)
Pulis. (Done great at Stoke, we would have to consider ourselves lucky to get him, but I would fear for our style of play under him)
Saunders. (Lovely bloke, Welsh footie legend, but I fear Wrexham will be his last job in management)
Speed/Giggs/Hartson/Whoever. (should only be considered as assistants to someone with experience, ie Flynn)
Flynn/Speed is still my first shout.
And in any case, the caliber of foreign manager that the FAW could actually pay for would be shocking. Talk of people like Hodgson is frankly deluded, actually quite embarassing. Your English mate would rip you apart in the pub for seriously suggesting Hodgson would even consider the Welsh job given his current status.
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Post by Tim P on Jun 19, 2010 10:16:19 GMT
agreed re hodgson. he would only become an option if he leaves fulham in three years and doesnt get the saes job - he could probably still get a club job, but i think he does like international management. even then, it would still be a coup.
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