Wales Tactics. Tosh is Right. World cup Proves it!

[no1skewenjack]

After watching the world cup (which has been dire for the most part in all fairness) has got me thinking that Toshack idea of keeping hold of the ball and playing defensive is the way forward for us.

If the likes of Slovenia and Slovakia can qualify by using defensive tactics then so should we. They are very well organized especially at the back, Hard working but not much going forward.

If you take say Swansea who have not got very good forwards but a good midfield and play to their strengths. Yes they can be boring to watch but relatively successful. Cardiff on the other hand can play more attacking football as their strength is their for wards.

Wales you would have to say would have more of a playing squad similar to Swansea as in Midfield is our string. With Collins in the EPL and Ashley Williams seems close to joining him we would have an all Premiership Defense and Midfield but our Forwards except for Bellers are far from EPL standard at the moment and the Jury is still out on them (hopefully they can go on and prove that their U21 record can be proof that they are real quality).

Would you rather a stereotypical British team that plays fast attacking football which is good to watch but we never qualify or a success full team which ends out long wait to the international grand stage?

[flynnfan]

Not sure I'd go as far as saying Tosh is right. I haven't seen any teams at this world cup playing with 5 at the back, or with no-one up front like we did against Finland at home.

I think you've got a point about setting up more the way Swansea play though, especially with Rambo out for the first few qaulifiers. See plan B thread for further reading!

[squatter1]

I think there's some truth in this, but the way Slovakia/Slovenia et al succeed with their defensive strategies is in combination with holding possession for long periods. This is where it gets difficult for our boys, as at club level they're used to high tempo British direct football. You can see that Tosh has consistently tried to improve our possession keeping, all that knocking it round at the back. These qualifiers will be the acid test of whether he was right all along or not.

[raptor]

Agree with this, let's face it, British style football just does not cut the mustard. Wales have been a kick and rush team since year dot, it's never got to a tournament finals other than through the back door in '58.

Tosh is trying to create a revolution; the problem is the players don't lke him due to his no nonsense approach. If you haven't got the dressing room then there's big problems.

[cardibach]

Jun 30, 2010 8:49:55 GMT raptor said:

If you haven't got the dressing room then there's big problems.

Just ask Mr Cappello. ;D

[flynnfan]

This is a very interesting post now, following England's failure in the world cup, and all the soul searching thats been going on there. Doesn't seem to be so much Tosh bashing going on now. Lets be fair to him- he's said all along 4-4-2, straight lines, up and at 'em British football just doesn't cut the mustard at international level now. Maybe we have actually stolen a march on our neighbours after all?

[cilmeri]

Agreed that it's an interesting post, but as Flynnfan says Tosh's insistence on 5 at the back and then his abrassive attitude has negated any other tactical changes. The teams getting joy at the WC seem to be those with 2 defensive midfielders or an all out attack. As stated we can't do the all out attack bit with our players so a form of 4-2-3-1 would make most sense. One real defensive player (Williams maybe although I'm not convinced) and one defensive ish but also a passer - maybe Ledley? ie similar styles to Mascherano & Alonso. Maybe Simon Davies actually given his passing but lack of legs.

[llannerch]

Using the word 'defensive' is generally misleading though. Just because someone is deep-lying doesn't mean they are defensive.

In Britain the tendency is to think that all sides must have a deep-lying, defensive, holding midfielder waiting for wave upon wave of attack who snaps at people's heels winning the ball back.

At Euro 2008 Marcos Senna wasn't per se deep-lying, defensive or aggressive but his role was to mop up and get things going again when the ball is won back (or needs to be). The critical thing issue is one's positioning when we have the ball vs when the opponents have it in readiness for when it's won back. Scheider, Alonso, Schweinsteiger (even Lahm comes central sometimes to perform the role), Gilberto Silva, Fabregas, among otehrs all perform the role admirably

[llannerch]

Joe Cole...bang on:

"Almost every team I have played for – including England – always want to hit the front players as early as possible. You won't get away with that at international level. It's about technique, keeping control of the ball, passing and moving."

www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jul/04/joe-cole-england-world-cup

It always makes me wince and chuckle in equal measure when at our games, usually chasing the opposition, the fans go mental to get it forward

[Tim P]

this is very interesting. will this see a greater committment from the players to Tosh's Idea? logic says it should, but if some are to be believed, things have gone too far.

[no1skewenjack]

Jun 25, 2010 21:34:09 GMT flynnfan said:

Not sure I'd go as far as saying Tosh is right. I haven't seen any teams at this world cup playing with 5 at the back, or with no-one up front like we did against Finland at home.

I think you've got a point about setting up more the way Swansea play though, especially with Rambo out for the first few qualifiers. See plan B thread for further reading!

Agree I think 5 at the back is dated along with Tosh's man management skills. I agree with allot of what Tosh says but for some reason the players don't really seem fired up I know the top three inches in your body is just as important as anywhere else when playing International football but a little bit of heart wouldn't go a miss every so often On the other hand it shouldn't be up to Tosh to fire people up when playing international football it should be up to him to cool them down but that's another thing all together.

4-2-3-1 has got to be the way forward. I would love to see Stock play again I thought he played well against Russia. The best 5 in midfield for me would be Stock next to Collinson. Bale, Bellamy and Ramsey playing in the more advanced roles. I think well guess the team would feel more suited well more used to playing a 5 man midfield than 5 at the back.

[walrus]

www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/jul/14/the-question-what-next-for-442

Johnathan Wilson spot on again. I tip my hat to this fellow who deserves a good tromboning for his tactical history writings. I'm assuming that most posters on here have bothered reading "inverting the Pyramid" perhaps we should buy bananaman a copy.

[llannerch]

Jul 10, 2010 22:28:19 GMT no1skewenjack said:

Jun 25, 2010 21:34:09 GMT flynnfan said:

Not sure I'd go as far as saying Tosh is right. I haven't seen any teams at this world cup playing with 5 at the back, or with no-one up front like we did against Finland at home.

I think you've got a point about setting up more the way Swansea play though, especially with Rambo out for the first few qualifiers. See plan B thread for further reading!

Agree I think 5 at the back is dated along with Tosh's man management skills. I agree with allot of what Tosh says but for some reason the players don't really seem fired up I know the top three inches in your body is just as important as anywhere else when playing International football but a little bit of heart wouldn't go a miss every so often On the other hand it shouldn't be up to Tosh to fire people up when playing international football it should be up to him to cool them down but that's another thing all together.

4-2-3-1 has got to be the way forward. I would love to see Stock play again I thought he played well against Russia. The best 5 in midfield for me would be Stock next to Collinson. Bale, Bellamy and Ramsey playing in the more advanced roles. I think well guess the team would feel more suited well more used to playing a 5 man midfield than 5 at the back.

Bellamy would have to play with more discipline in that arrangement than he does when he's one-up on his own

[Tim P]

jonathon wilson is a bit of a one off - excellent analysis, as always.

compare his measured approach to alan hansen's drivel throughout the WC final and there is a shocking, but not unsurprising, difference.

[Deleted]

Is it any coincidence that our most successful spell (under Hughes) in the first half of the 2004 Euro qualifier campaign adopted the 4-2-3-1 system?

[cilmeri]

There would be if we had adopted 4-2-3-1. Really it was a system flicking between 4-5-1, 4-1-4-1 and 4-3-3, with pembridge as the only deep lying midfielder. Similar system to what Barca are using I'd have said, but with a focal point of attack (which didn't move that much). The point though is that it was a different and fluid system, which perfectly fitted the players at the time.

[flynnfan]

I thought it was more like 4-3-2-1?

Italy game was:
Jones
Delaney, Melville, Gabbidon, Speed
Davies, Savage, Pembridge
Bellamy, Giggs
Hartson.

I'd advocate something similar for our first few games in qualifying without Rambo and Collison. Something like:

Hennessey
Gunter, Collins, Williams, Ricketts
Edwards, Ledley, Davies
Bellamy, Bale
Vokes.

[walrus]

Oooh without those two it looks unbalanced. That system does not suit that 11. They'd be better off doing a 442 fulham style. Where are the ball players to keep hold of posession? The middle three would be overrun in midfield and would be chasing all night. Looking at that i can see why Tosh often goes 532 to try and paper over the cracks. The three up top would be isolated and wales would resort to knocking it long probably. Don't like it at all Flynnfan and i suspect neither do you. Just goes to show how difficult is Tosh's job.

With that 11 i would play 4411 with Bellamy behind vokes and a compact midfield four with Bale and Edwards supporting the long balls to the front two. Vokes would be crucial. Bellamy upsetting their playmaker when they have it. Vokes working his socks off for 60 then church or Evans coming on.

532 i'd go a back 3 of CG AW and JC with Edwards and Bale wide working hard. Allen Ledley and Davies and Vokes and Bellamy up front. A much better balance for the team with Bale to swap with Ledley if he is pressed back too much.

Tosh is not getting paid enough if you ask me.

[cilmeri]

Ok flynnfan, but the 4-3-2-1 isn't that far from the formations I mentioned...... Pembridge was deeper though, it was similar to what Chelsea did afterwards, whith Pembridge in the Makelele role, (or Makelele in the pembrudge role?), and Drogba in the Hartson role.

Systems seem to have evolved now though to favour 2 deeper midfielders, one to break up and one to create - mainly it seems because of a dearth of a really good Makelele or pembridge

[llannerch]

One of the flurry of post-world cup tactic critiques reckoned Makelele wasn't all that.

And that Deschamps was the mould for the deep lying, but ultimately offensive player such as Schweinsteiger, Alonso, etc. At Madrid and Chelsea Makelele wasn't required to do much more than break up opposing atatcks and give the ball to someone else. What he did, he did effectively but wasn't as dynamic, technical or revolutionary as his legend suggests

I'll try and find the link

[Deleted]

Jul 16, 2010 2:04:25 GMT walrus said:

Oooh without those two it looks unbalanced. That system does not suit that 11. They'd be better off doing a 442 fulham style. Where are the ball players to keep hold of posession? The middle three would be overrun in midfield and would be chasing all night. Looking at that i can see why Tosh often goes 532 to try and paper over the cracks. The three up top would be isolated and wales would resort to knocking it long probably. Don't like it at all Flynnfan and i suspect neither do you. Just goes to show how difficult is Tosh's job.

With that 11 i would play 4411 with Bellamy behind vokes and a compact midfield four with Bale and Edwards supporting the long balls to the front two. Vokes would be crucial. Bellamy upsetting their playmaker when they have it. Vokes working his socks off for 60 then church or Evans coming on.

532 i'd go a back 3 of CG AW and JC with Edwards and Bale wide working hard. Allen Ledley and Davies and Vokes and Bellamy up front. A much better balance for the team with Bale to swap with Ledley if he is pressed back too much.

Tosh is not getting paid enough if you ask me.

I would say if the figure of 250k quoted in another thread is true then hes being paid more than enough seeing as Im sure he still spends the vast majority of his time in Spain. We have slipped to 84th in the rankings for a reason and are likely to slip beyond 100 before his time is up unless we start putting more emphasis on winning games rather than merely using them to gain experience for our youngsters.

As for formations, because of WC2010 I have more appreciation for what Tosh has been trying to achieve over the past 6 years- it really seems to be all about packing the midfield and keeping possession so Tosh was ahead of the curve in this respect. The problem is that when Englands players cant seem to play possession football then it makes you wonder what hope we have with players with less quality. To be able to use these non-4-4-2 formations successfully requires an overhaul at junior level which wont bear fruit for another generation at the earliest. We have to change our whole approach to the game as British players do not have the nous to adapt from what they have coached into doing from a young age.

To really pull off his plan Tosh needed far more time with our players rather than a load of friendlies and competitive matches where we never had a settled squad due to injuries/commitment. Day in day out for their clubs most of our players are playing a totally different sort of game.

[cilmeri]

Aahh, RD, nice to have you back!

One comment I read recently was that it was daft England playing the way the did (roughly 4-4-2) when their clubs sides play 4-2-3-1 or a variation - now obviously this was in relation to England, and therefore the top 4 club sides as opposed to the lower sides. I'm not sure what our players tend to play with the clubs, but we can be fairly certain that they all play a flat back 4, so why the hell are we persisting with 5?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!

[tai33stashon]

Jul 16, 2010 12:31:47 GMT @storm said:

Jul 16, 2010 2:04:25 GMT walrus said:

I would say if the figure of 250k quoted in another thread is true .

for FFS when ppl lyke me are working for eight pound n hr and you say Tossack is on half a million an its okay well thats a disgrece. Load of bollox and dnt get me strted on the plyrs absolute disgrace the lot of thm

[walrus]

Ok there's a few debates here No 1. Toshacks wages are miniscule compared to what is on offer world wide for a person his pedigree. International football manager wages are quite high. In general Footballers are paid too much and that is a another debate. No 2 The system's Tosh has played have generally refelected the availability of what he can put on the park. When he plays 5 at the back he is aiming to soak up pressure with the added bonus of not conceding the midfield when the wing backs push up to create a 5 or a 41 or a 32 depending on the centre midfield 3 formation. In short he realises he is outmanned and is shoring it up. His best team is not a bad team and i'm sure he would like to play more progressive. What is lost in all this is that Tosh is the change agent. Fried bananas and all. British International sides have won nothing since 66 and before that....nothing. So obviously the helter skelter Pre and football league which is great entertainment is not conducive to international success. Period!
So as much as we are frustrated with Tosh i believe he has been heroic in putting his reputation and ideas on the line. He has willingly released any player who does not like it and there have been many. Now he is at base camp having established a young hungry squad with a few journeymen making up the numbers. The next 5 years is crucial in getting another 3 or 4 top quality players to play alongside Bale and Ramsey. It is obvious that most of the younger players are still not good enough but are willing whereas the Johnsons D Collins, savages Osters and young Cotterill's were not. These two injuries to Ramsey and Collison are cruel blows. The welsh football public which starts on this board need to be patient still and realistic too. We need to get to the point where we are a second seeded nation, at which point i will say can all consider this project a success. Sparky's method for all its thrills was a one off shot at glory and left the cupboard bare. We all know that.

[Deleted]

Jul 17, 2010 1:17:29 GMT walrus said:

Ok there's a few debates here No 1. Toshacks wages are miniscule compared to what is on offer world wide for a person his pedigree. International football manager wages are quite high. In general Footballers are paid too much and that is a another debate. No 2 The system's Tosh has played have generally refelected the availability of what he can put on the park. When he plays 5 at the back he is aiming to soak up pressure with the added bonus of not conceding the midfield when the wing backs push up to create a 5 or a 41 or a 32 depending on the centre midfield 3 formation. In short he realises he is outmanned and is shoring it up. His best team is not a bad team and i'm sure he would like to play more progressive. What is lost in all this is that Tosh is the change agent. Fried bananas and all. British International sides have won nothing since 66 and before that....nothing. So obviously the helter skelter Pre and football league which is great entertainment is not conducive to international success. Period!
So as much as we are frustrated with Tosh i believe he has been heroic in putting his reputation and ideas on the line. He has willingly released any player who does not like it and there have been many. Now he is at base camp having established a young hungry squad with a few journeymen making up the numbers. The next 5 years is crucial in getting another 3 or 4 top quality players to play alongside Bale and Ramsey. It is obvious that most of the younger players are still not good enough but are willing whereas the Johnsons D Collins, savages Osters and young Cotterill's were not. These two injuries to Ramsey and Collison are cruel blows. The welsh football public which starts on this board need to be patient still and realistic too. We need to get to the point where we are a second seeded nation, at which point i will say can all consider this project a success. Sparky's method for all its thrills was a one off shot at glory and left the cupboard bare. We all know that.

But by playing 3 centre backs he creates more problems than he solves due to player inability to know their roles. We have been playing this way for years and yet we still conceded an early goal in a recent qualifier to Finland because the 3 centre backs were caught out early on and were out of position. We do not have the consistent personnel, the quality, or the time to make this a viable long term strategy. I totally agree that the premier league and football league are not good for international football and that is exactly the reason why Tosh was fighting a losing battle from day one by implementing such a culture shock in our first XI- far better to make the real changes in welsh youth football and "tread water" whilst waiting for the kids to come through.

Mark Hughes did leave us in bad shape in terms of any legacy, however I also feel that whilst at the time people saw it as a good move to ditch some of the older players we can now see it has ultimately meant the youngsters fighting off the back foot. Like it or not the rankings determine seeding and giving up experienced players who could arguably have still done a job in keeping our seeing consistent in favour of untried kids who were always going to struggle for a few years was a move that has ultimately seen us fail to get results for a long time now resulting in our current placing of 84 with only an outside chance of improving on that in this campaign. Tosh imo should have been blending the kids in rather than an the all or nothing approach he took. He really didnt seem bothered that we still needed to get results during this time, and that is disappointing.

Its all very well having a team of quality players in time for WC2014 but when we are coming out of pot 6 in all honesty we may as well forget it.

[flynnfan]

There's only 5 teams in our next group anyway RD, so I would say the chances of us being in pot 6 for the WC2014 qualifiers are slim...

[walrus]

No one suggests this has been nothing less than a revolution and it has been painful. We do not know for sure but it seems to me that there was a poor culture in the welsh set up. The running battle with Savage Oster et al spoke volumes of the player power in the set up. To then see Cotterill and one or two other young players get hubristic about their welsh spot tells me that the attitude problems with the older players were deep. As a sports scientist myself, i could only gasp in horror at Savage's embarrassing comments about the fried bananas. Did Tosh have much choice?
I agree with your comments Storm re the youngsters struggling but Tosh had the choice of starting a new culture or letting the decay of the old one infect the new one. As such the revolution has taken longer than expected but i fully expect for tosh to get us back into pot 3 and hopefully the next manager will have the platform to aim for pot 2.

[Tim P]

walrus: as a sports scientist, are you saying that fried bananas are a good thing?

[alrhyl]

Jul 16, 2010 12:58:01 GMT tai33stashon said:

Jul 16, 2010 12:31:47 GMT @storm said:

Jul 16, 2010 2:04:25 GMT walrus said:

I would say if the figure of 250k quoted in another thread is true .

for FFS when ppl lyke me are working for eight pound n hr and you say Tossack is on half a million an its okay well thats a disgrece. Load of bollox and dnt get me strted on the plyrs absolute disgrace the lot of thm

£8 an hour??! You're getting paid too much Tai!!

[llannerch]

He's counting tips as well. Lay off