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Post by CrackityJones on Jan 6, 2019 13:41:41 GMT
Blimey. When posters talk about our players scoring and assisting on here, they aren’t trying to prove a point, just commenting on their performances as fans of the Welsh game.
That excitement is now being expressed when one of our best ever midfielders is deservedly getting the chance to prove himself at a true European giant. I can’t bloody wait.
Forza Calcio Cymro!
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Post by manulike on Jan 6, 2019 13:49:24 GMT
I’m going to try and elaborate on my criticism by asking the following question: “Aaron, what have you done for Wales lately?” By my reckoning his last good game for Wales was Serbia away which was a bloody long time ago. In the period since I have been promised by various posters that he was going to destroy ROI at home in the WC and Denmark at home in the nations league (SPOILER ALERT: he didn’t). Both key games and yet Ramsey was conspicuous only by his lack of any influence on the game whatsoever. Am I right, or am I wrong? If I am right, is that good enough? I know we over-hype players to buggery quite needlessly on here and for the most part I have learned to accept it, but with Ramsey I feel it more acutely than with any other player because the Ramsey I read about on here sounds like a world beater and yet the contrast with the reality could not be starker (imo). It feels like I'm being told that the sky is purple. Some assists against Blackpool and Fulham hold no value to me, especially for such a vaunted player. That should be the basics for a player with his suggested level of talent. So from him I want to see him turn up for Wales and stand out against the likes of Man City, yet he does neither of those things consistently. Just looking at key games this season he was subbed early doors vs United and City, came on vs Chelsea at 2-2 and Arsenal went on to lose, played the whole game in Spurs comfortable Carabao cup win when Arsenal weren’t at the races. The positives seem to be his sub appearance against Tottenham that resulted in a turnaround in scoreline and Arsenal equalising against Liverpool after coming on as sub- very much a mixed bag with more bad than good and yet this is supposed to be a good season for him, according to all concerned. If Eriksen is the yardstick (quality prem player, integral to Denmark) then, for me, Ramsey is so far off Eriksen's ability and consistency it is almost an insult to make a comparison. On the whole Ramsey has had a pretty under-whelming career imo that has, since Euro 2016, petered out resulting in him playing for a hum-drum team who compete for a Europa League spot. He needs a Champions League win to justify the reputation he has on here (and ‘on here’ is the key bit as he does not seem to be held in anywhere near the same esteem elsewhere). I’ll openly admit that I’m staggered that he looks like he is going to get that chance- Juventus have obviously not been looking at any of his Wales performances during their appraisal of him! So, whilst I expect to get roundly booed for this post I feel I have at least given a coherent explanation of why I struggle to rate him, so……tell me why am I wrong? Have I set the bar too high? If that is the case I would counter that perhaps the posters on here have set it too low by making too much of his performances against the poor to average sides. A sort of flat track bully, if you like. Would we rave about an English player who scored against the dregs yet never turned up for England or put in quality performances against the best in the league? I expect we would complain about how over-rated they are…and heaven forbid such a player keeps a Welsh player out of the side! Imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth if Ramsey’s English equivalent kept Ampadu out of the Chelsea team…. Your opinion and perspective is respected.
Still, I find no reason to apologise for thinking and genuinely believing deep down in my heart that Ryan Hedges and Lloyd Isgrove are TWICE the players that Eriksen is. One day, they will be there on the CL platform waving the cup, just like their mate Gareth ;-)
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Post by insertname on Jan 6, 2019 14:04:36 GMT
Blimey. When posters talk about our players scoring and assisting on here, they aren’t trying to prove a point, just commenting on their performances as fans of the Welsh game. That excitement is now being expressed when one of our best ever midfielders is deservedly getting the chance to prove himself at a true European giant. I can’t bloody wait. Forza Calcio Cymro! Fair point, I'm perhaps mis-interpreting hype as just a bit of a backslap for when he does well. I do ultimately stand by my assertion that he has hand an under whelming career on the whole though and from what I have seen, although I don't go along with some of the hype, I have a feeling it is justified in Ampadu and Brooks (maybe Wilson) and feel confident that they will go on to have careers that leave Ramsey's in the shade (both at club and international level)
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Post by CrackityJones on Jan 6, 2019 14:13:03 GMT
Blimey. When posters talk about our players scoring and assisting on here, they aren’t trying to prove a point, just commenting on their performances as fans of the Welsh game. That excitement is now being expressed when one of our best ever midfielders is deservedly getting the chance to prove himself at a true European giant. I can’t bloody wait. Forza Calcio Cymro! Fair point, I'm perhaps mis-interpreting hype as just a bit of a backslap for when he does well. I do ultimately stand by my assertion that he has hand an under whelming career on the whole though and from what I have seen, although I don't go along with some of the hype, I have a feeling it is justified in Ampadu and Brooks (maybe Wilson) and feel confident that they will go on to have careers that leave Ramsey's in the shade (both at club and international level) If they achieve what Ramsey has for club and especially country I will be absolutely delighted. If they manage to surpass him...well
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Post by derynglas on Jan 6, 2019 14:49:33 GMT
As Wales fans we know full well the value of Rambo (and Joey for that matter) to our team and how our levels drop when one or both are missing for us and beleive them undervalued in the English league/media. Rambo misses our semi-final,then misses the first three world cup games injured including probably the dicicive faiure to beat Georgia at home. His performances were fine for the rest of the campaign but with the absence of Bale against ROI Rambo was unable to carry us like Bale can but hes not that type of player. Anyway Juventus want to sign him quite rightly IMO so perhaps hell finally get the chance to prove the doubters wrong.
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Post by fiveattheback on Jan 6, 2019 15:44:00 GMT
Booed onto the pitch today apparently. Then scores. Needs to get away from Arsenal- feel he's gone a bit stale there, a fresh challenge will do him good. Arsenal fans are like spoilt children who don't deserve anything nice, but there's a lot of truth in what insertname has said regarding big clubs having no desire to bid for him. He'll be a benchwarmer at Juve, with Pjanic, Can and their young star Bentancur all ahead of him. It'll end up like when Mexicans celebrated Javier Hernandez's transfer to United, only to be Rooney & van Persie's bitch, and apostles will call Juve fans and coaches blind for not seeing what he brings to their club. Where he goes is anyone's guess, but my prediction is because he's a decent player with a few years CL experience, he'll have a handful of appearances at his club before being sold in a loan-to-transfer agreement for a straight up profit; he's essentially a free £20-30m investment for his next club. Yes, they're making a benchwarmer their second highest paid player
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Post by robin1864 on Jan 6, 2019 15:51:58 GMT
Arsenal fans are like spoilt children who don't deserve anything nice, but there's a lot of truth in what insertname has said regarding big clubs having no desire to bid for him. He'll be a benchwarmer at Juve, with Pjanic, Can and their young star Bentancur all ahead of him. It'll end up like when Mexicans celebrated Javier Hernandez's transfer to United, only to be Rooney & van Persie's bitch, and apostles will call Juve fans and coaches blind for not seeing what he brings to their club. Where he goes is anyone's guess, but my prediction is because he's a decent player with a few years CL experience, he'll have a handful of appearances at his club before being sold in a loan-to-transfer agreement for a straight up profit; he's essentially a free £20-30m investment for his next club. Yes, they're making a benchwarmer their second highest paid player You're right, they're just going to drop Khedeira, Pjanic, Matuidi or that totally overrated wannabe-Wilson, Dybala, to accommodate Mr Consistency. Pull your head out of your arse, every Juve fan I've seen discussing it use the phrase "adds more depth" when discussing him, not how excited they are to have such a world class player joining their club. He'll be coming on from the bench same as he is at Arsenal if he isn't a canny investment sold on in a year or two by Juve.
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Post by insertname on Jan 6, 2019 17:59:36 GMT
Yes, they're making a benchwarmer their second highest paid player You're right, they're just going to drop Khedeira, Pjanic, Matuidi or that totally overrated wannabe-Wilson, Dybala, to accommodate Mr Consistency. Pull your head out of your arse, every Juve fan I've seen discussing it use the phrase "adds more depth" when discussing him, not how excited they are to have such a world class player joining their club. He'll be coming on from the bench same as he is at Arsenal if he isn't a canny investment sold on in a year or two by Juve. It's an interesting point about them buying him to flip him on in a couple of years. His contract is rumoured to be worth 6.5 million, as much as I don't see the value in him at 40 million I can easily see someone like West Ham paying 10+ million for him in two years time when he is the wrong side of 30 so Juve would have made at least 3.5 million profit (minus signing on fee), most likely more. Decent enough investment.
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Post by insertname on Jan 6, 2019 18:07:53 GMT
As Wales fans we know full well the value of Rambo (and Joey for that matter) to our team and how our levels drop when one or both are missing for us and beleive them undervalued in the English league/media. Rambo misses our semi-final,then misses the first three world cup games injured including probably the dicicive faiure to beat Georgia at home. His performances were fine for the rest of the campaign but with the absence of Bale against ROI Rambo was unable to carry us like Bale can but hes not that type of player.Anyway Juventus want to sign him quite rightly IMO so perhaps hell finally get the chance to prove the doubters wrong. But that's the frustration, because if he is *that* good, he should at least have had more influence on ROI than he actually did? I'm not asking him to win the game single handedly because as you say that is Gareth Bale levels of ability, but what we got was way short of what should be acceptable. Big players put their hand up on occasions like that, we just didn't see it from Ramsey at all.
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Post by robin1864 on Jan 6, 2019 18:09:18 GMT
You're right, they're just going to drop Khedeira, Pjanic, Matuidi or that totally overrated wannabe-Wilson, Dybala, to accommodate Mr Consistency. Pull your head out of your arse, every Juve fan I've seen discussing it use the phrase "adds more depth" when discussing him, not how excited they are to have such a world class player joining their club. He'll be coming on from the bench same as he is at Arsenal if he isn't a canny investment sold on in a year or two by Juve. It's an interesting point about them buying him to flip him on in a couple of years. His contract is rumoured to be worth 6.5 million, as much as I don't see the value in him at 40 million I can easily see someone like West Ham paying 10+ million for him in two years time when he is the wrong side of 30 so Juve would have made at least 3.5 million profit (minus signing on fee), most likely more. Decent enough investment. It's what a lot of clubs are doing now to get around FFP etc. Players are no longer assets for the club to enjoy, they're investments for the club and agents. See players like Joao Cancelo & Andre Gomes. Right now Aaron Ramsey is the hottest property as a free agent because you're guaranteed to make a profit on him, as a player under contract though it's telling how highly rated he is/was when nobody tried to buy him from Arsenal after a sensational 2015/16 + Euros performances.
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Post by insertname on Jan 6, 2019 18:25:15 GMT
It's an interesting point about them buying him to flip him on in a couple of years. His contract is rumoured to be worth 6.5 million, as much as I don't see the value in him at 40 million I can easily see someone like West Ham paying 10+ million for him in two years time when he is the wrong side of 30 so Juve would have made at least 3.5 million profit (minus signing on fee), most likely more. Decent enough investment. It's what a lot of clubs are doing now to get around FFP etc. Players are no longer assets for the club to enjoy, they're investments for the club and agents. See players like Joao Cancelo & Andre Gomes. Right now Aaron Ramsey is the hottest property as a free agent because you're guaranteed to make a profit on him, as a player under contract though it's telling how highly rated he is/was when nobody tried to buy him from Arsenal after a sensational 2015/16 + Euros performances. Yeah as much as I don't see him as world class or Champions League last 16 quality I think he has got guaranteed re-sale value to a mid-table/Europa League Prem side once he would have run his course at Juve, that's obviously if he doesn't excel there and earn a longer contract or get sold to Barcelona (imo that outcome is extremely remote though). On the subject of players being seen like stocks to be invested in and traded I'm watching Leicester play Newport and I can't help but think that was the concept behind paying 12 million for Ward - it's a lot for a reserve keeper for the likes of Leicester but I'm sure they think they can make a profit on him in a couple of years. Chelsea's extensive list of players on loan also looks like a good wheeze for drumming up capital when they flog them all off for mad profit.
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Post by robin1864 on Jan 6, 2019 18:29:43 GMT
It's what a lot of clubs are doing now to get around FFP etc. Players are no longer assets for the club to enjoy, they're investments for the club and agents. See players like Joao Cancelo & Andre Gomes. Right now Aaron Ramsey is the hottest property as a free agent because you're guaranteed to make a profit on him, as a player under contract though it's telling how highly rated he is/was when nobody tried to buy him from Arsenal after a sensational 2015/16 + Euros performances. Yeah as much as I don't see him as world class or Champions League last 16 quality I think he has got guaranteed re-sale value to a mid-table/Europa League Prem side once he would have run his course at Juve, that's obviously if he doesn't excel there and earn a longer contract or get sold to Barcelona (imo that outcome is extremely remote though). On the subject of players being seen like stocks to be invested in and traded I'm watching Leicester play Newport and I can't help but think that was the concept behind paying 12 million for Ward - it's a lot for a reserve keeper for the likes of Leicester but I'm sure they think they can make a profit on him in a couple of years. Chelsea's extensive list of players on loan also looks like a good wheeze for drumming up capital when they flog them all off for mad profit. It could be paper talk but Bayern are after Chelsea's Callum Hudson-Odoi, for which they're asking £30m. 18 years old, fantastic investment from Chelsea's point of view.
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Post by fiveattheback on Jan 6, 2019 18:36:26 GMT
Yes, they're making a benchwarmer their second highest paid player You're right, they're just going to drop Khedeira, Pjanic, Matuidi or that totally overrated wannabe-Wilson, Dybala, to accommodate Mr Consistency. Pull your head out of your arse, every Juve fan I've seen discussing it use the phrase "adds more depth" when discussing him, not how excited they are to have such a world class player joining their club. He'll be coming on from the bench same as he is at Arsenal if he isn't a canny investment sold on in a year or two by Juve. The same Khedira who will be 32 next season, has only made 6 league appearances this season and is being suggested as a makeweight to sign Ramsey?
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Post by robin1864 on Jan 6, 2019 18:48:02 GMT
You're right, they're just going to drop Khedeira, Pjanic, Matuidi or that totally overrated wannabe-Wilson, Dybala, to accommodate Mr Consistency. Pull your head out of your arse, every Juve fan I've seen discussing it use the phrase "adds more depth" when discussing him, not how excited they are to have such a world class player joining their club. He'll be coming on from the bench same as he is at Arsenal if he isn't a canny investment sold on in a year or two by Juve. The same Khedira who will be 32 next season, has only made 6 league appearances this season and is being suggested as a makeweight to sign Ramsey? The same Khedira who has won a title in every competition he's ever appeared in playing an integral role in his team, yes. Even if he is on his way out, they've still got Bentancur who's highly rated and adored by their fans. Again, the phrase "He adds more depth" has been bandied about Juve circles, not "Brilliant signing, replaces Khedira perfectly!" I love to see Welsh players doing well, but this is just an artificial move and nothing to get excited about in quality terms. Rambo's opportunity to leave Arsenal was 3 years ago after an epic Euro performance, but he signed yet another contract for the gunners.
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Post by cadno on Jan 6, 2019 19:15:18 GMT
LMAO one of our top 5 midfielders ever and people are saying he hasn't done enough for Wales, bloody hell, come on... He's a perfect tournament player, as we saw in the Euros. What Rambo needs is the freedom to play, perhaps he felt too much responsibility in that Ireland game (I can't remember thinking he played poorly at the time?) Anyway, if Juventus, PSG, Madrid, Bayern, Inter etc have been looking at him, he must be doing something right!
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Post by fiveattheback on Jan 6, 2019 19:54:34 GMT
LMAO one of our top 5 midfielders ever and people are saying he hasn't done enough for Wales, bloody hell, come on... He's a perfect tournament player, as we saw in the Euros. What Rambo needs is the freedom to play, perhaps he felt too much responsibility in that Ireland game (I can't remember thinking he played poorly at the time?) Anyway, if Juventus, PSG, Madrid, Bayern, Inter etc have been looking at him, he must be doing something right! Nah he'll be on the bench at West Ham within the year remember?
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Post by insertname on Jan 6, 2019 19:56:35 GMT
LMAO one of our top 5 midfielders ever and people are saying he hasn't done enough for Wales, bloody hell, come on... He's a perfect tournament player, as we saw in the Euros. What Rambo needs is the freedom to play, perhaps he felt too much responsibility in that Ireland game (I can't remember thinking he played poorly at the time?) Anyway, if Juventus, PSG, Madrid, Bayern, Inter etc have been looking at him, he must be doing something right! But that's why I'm asking - what has he done for Wales, I was hoping you could tell me? I'm open to having my mind changed here, it's just then I'm struggling to come up with more in recent times than Serbia away and the games at the Euros. You are mocking my opinion, but crucially, you aren't actually challenging it. So tell me the games I'm missing where he stood out for Wales... "perhaps he felt too much responsibility" - the best players thrive on responsibility, don't they? Isn't that the mark of a top player-bringing their A game in the crunch games? Crikey, it's a good job for Denmark that Eriksen decided to score a hat trick against ROI instead of cry in the dressing room because a world cup play off was too big a stage for him
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Post by 1gwaunview on Jan 6, 2019 20:11:26 GMT
For Wales I think his high watermark to date was Euro 2016 when he was brilliant. I find he does tend to disappear in games sometimes, and can be caught in possession. Countering that he has a great engine and fine vision, good at freekicks and a strong shot.
When Joe Allen isn't there with him for Wales he's less effective, he's not the sort of player to take the game by the scruff of the neck like Bale can at times (as has been mentioned previously).
If/when he goes to Juventus, perhaps the Italian game will suit him, but he'll have to fight hard for his place in the first eleven, and perhaps he will be a bench-warmer a lot of the time (also previously mentioned).
At the moment Juve are a step up from Arsenal, but whether they'd have gone for him if not out of contract is debatable.
If he does end up there, best of luck to him (3rd Welshman to play in Turin), but he'll have to be consistently good to be a success at Juventus.
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Post by CrackityJones on Jan 6, 2019 20:37:08 GMT
Yeah hopefully he’s more John Charles than Ian Rush but I’m looking forward to finding out.
Exciting times to be a Wales fan.
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Post by welshiron on Jan 6, 2019 20:42:17 GMT
Ramsey is a class player, sometimes think he tries too much.
Hope he does well at Juve. I predict he will be a success
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Post by cadno on Jan 6, 2019 20:52:37 GMT
LMAO one of our top 5 midfielders ever and people are saying he hasn't done enough for Wales, bloody hell, come on... He's a perfect tournament player, as we saw in the Euros. What Rambo needs is the freedom to play, perhaps he felt too much responsibility in that Ireland game (I can't remember thinking he played poorly at the time?) Anyway, if Juventus, PSG, Madrid, Bayern, Inter etc have been looking at him, he must be doing something right! But that's why I'm asking - what has he done for Wales, I was hoping you could tell me? I'm open to having my mind changed here, it's just then I'm struggling to come up with more in recent times than Serbia away and the games at the Euros. You are mocking my opinion, but crucially, you aren't actually challenging it. So tell me the games I'm missing where he stood out for Wales... "perhaps he felt too much responsibility" - the best players thrive on responsibility, don't they? Isn't that the mark of a top player-bringing their A game in the crunch games? Crikey, it's a good job for Denmark that Eriksen decided to score a hat trick against ROI instead of cry in the dressing room because a world cup play off was too big a stage for him Fair and interesting points! He's got 14 goals for us, not bad for a midfielder that's just turned 28! Maybe you have a point that he hasn't been as influential as he should be over the last 2 years, I'm not sure though, because we've still been a better side when he's playing... as derynglas pointed out, we struggled to beat sides in the WCQ when Ramsey wasn't there. I'm in no doubt that he's good enough for the top teams in Europe, he'll get even better at Juve imo!
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Post by insertname on Jan 6, 2019 22:17:36 GMT
But that's why I'm asking - what has he done for Wales, I was hoping you could tell me? I'm open to having my mind changed here, it's just then I'm struggling to come up with more in recent times than Serbia away and the games at the Euros. You are mocking my opinion, but crucially, you aren't actually challenging it. So tell me the games I'm missing where he stood out for Wales... "perhaps he felt too much responsibility" - the best players thrive on responsibility, don't they? Isn't that the mark of a top player-bringing their A game in the crunch games? Crikey, it's a good job for Denmark that Eriksen decided to score a hat trick against ROI instead of cry in the dressing room because a world cup play off was too big a stage for him Fair and interesting points! He's got 14 goals for us, not bad for a midfielder that's just turned 28! Maybe you have a point that he hasn't been as influential as he should be over the last 2 years, I'm not sure though, because we've still been a better side when he's playing... as derynglas pointed out, we struggled to beat sides in the WCQ when Ramsey wasn't there. I'm in no doubt that he's good enough for the top teams in Europe, he'll get even better at Juve imo! Actually I will concede you made a good point there, I had forgotten that (IIRC) I did a bit of investigation a while back of our results in Euro 2016 qualifying and surprisingly we dropped the most points when Ramsey wasn't playing. So perhaps at that point it could be said that he had an influence on the side even if his performances themselves did not stand out. I'm not sure that was the case for the WC qualifiers though mind, he was part of that turgid trip to ROI (although I blame the tactics for that game more than the players) and also the home game vs ROI etc. It really feels like he was MIA at crucial points in that campaign and as that is most recent it sticks in my mind and offsets his contribution to the euro finals campaign when he upstaged Bale.
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Post by iot on Jan 6, 2019 22:40:42 GMT
Wow, you two are some double-act! It's hilarious.
Yep, having all of the best clubs in the world after him isn't a sign that he's actually rated quite highly in the game, it's just cold business investment thinking. In reality, he's a Bournemouth/Everton level player as you guys have previously suggested and clubs are just after him for the sell-on fee. It will be the same when the contracts of Bournemouth's Dan Gosling or Everton's Tom Davies runs down to 6 months, you'll have Madrid and Juventus after them too I bet.
The reality is, Ramsey's a top class midfielder and capable of the extraordinary. He has his off-days, The Ireland game's a good case in point, but when he hits form he goes through long periods of top level performances as he did in the euros, as he did for Arsenal at the second half of last season (he was voted arsenal's best player last season btw), as he was for us in the euro qualifiers and the back-end of 2014 WC campaign (I was out in Brussels when he ran the show), and as he's been for arsenal on countless other occasions.
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Post by insertname on Jan 7, 2019 0:42:03 GMT
Wow, you two are some double-act! It's hilarious. Yep, having all of the best clubs in the world after him isn't a sign that he's actually rated quite highly in the game, it's just cold business investment thinking. In reality, he's a Bournemouth/Everton level player as you guys have previously suggested and clubs are just after him for the sell-on fee. It will be the same when the contracts of Bournemouth's Dan Gosling or Everton's Tom Davies runs down to 6 months, you'll have Madrid and Juventus after them too I bet. The reality is, Ramsey's a top class midfielder and capable of the extraordinary. He has his off-days, The Ireland game's a good case in point, but when he hits form he goes through long periods of top level performances as he did in the euros, as he did for Arsenal at the second half of last season (he was voted arsenal's best player last season btw), as he was for us in the euro qualifiers and the back-end of 2014 WC campaign (I was out in Brussels when he ran the show), and as he's been for arsenal on countless other occasions. Understatement of the century! To be fair Robin makes a good point, if he was so highly rated how come no firm offers were made when his stock was at it's highest following the Euros? It's a lot easier getting involved when he is available on a free as a speculative punt -- where were the teams queueing up to pay 50 million plus for him? His career has stagnated at Arsenal but he can only be held responsible for that so much if no-one wants to buy him. And to be fair, being voted Arsenal's best player last season is like winning the classic 'tallest dwarf competition', especially with Wenger at the helm. Arsenal last season were an unspectacular Europa league outfit and they and Ramsey came up short against Atletico where Ramsey (IIRC) was good in one leg and not so good in another. I don't dispute that he gets goals and assists but as I have pointed out earlier he doesn't make much of an impact consistently against the top teams (slagged off for his attitude in fact against Man City by Gary Neville which was put down as some sort of conspiracy on here! ). So I think you might be setting your standards too low in your definition of top class because if a player who periodically has a good game against the best in the league can be defined as top class I would ask whether you think someone like....I dunno....Gylfi Sigurdsson is top class because he also occasionally does alright against top opposition! Personally I would describe Ramsey as an above average midfielder who occasionally turns up in big fixtures against quality sides (I've already provided supporting evidence for this opinion) and that seems to put him right where he currently is: 5th to 7th in the premier league and playing in the Europa League. I don't see it that he is playing below his true standard, he's just not consistent enough, sorry. When he consistently performs against your Man Citys and Liverpools then I'll be jumping on the hype train with everyone else! PS: There is also an additional argument to be had about the quality of Serie A at the moment. Is he even going to be playing better opposition week in week out? Napoli and Inter Milan were both knocked out of the Champions League by English sides while England has 4 sides still left in the competition....
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Post by iot on Jan 7, 2019 13:18:38 GMT
Wow, you two are some double-act! It's hilarious. Yep, having all of the best clubs in the world after him isn't a sign that he's actually rated quite highly in the game, it's just cold business investment thinking. In reality, he's a Bournemouth/Everton level player as you guys have previously suggested and clubs are just after him for the sell-on fee. It will be the same when the contracts of Bournemouth's Dan Gosling or Everton's Tom Davies runs down to 6 months, you'll have Madrid and Juventus after them too I bet. The reality is, Ramsey's a top class midfielder and capable of the extraordinary. He has his off-days, The Ireland game's a good case in point, but when he hits form he goes through long periods of top level performances as he did in the euros, as he did for Arsenal at the second half of last season (he was voted arsenal's best player last season btw), as he was for us in the euro qualifiers and the back-end of 2014 WC campaign (I was out in Brussels when he ran the show), and as he's been for arsenal on countless other occasions. Understatement of the century! To be fair Robin makes a good point, if he was so highly rated how come no firm offers were made when his stock was at it's highest following the Euros? It's a lot easier getting involved when he is available on a free as a speculative punt -- where were the teams queueing up to pay 50 million plus for him? His career has stagnated at Arsenal but he can only be held responsible for that so much if no-one wants to buy him. And to be fair, being voted Arsenal's best player last season is like winning the classic 'tallest dwarf competition', especially with Wenger at the helm. Arsenal last season were an unspectacular Europa league outfit and they and Ramsey came up short against Atletico where Ramsey (IIRC) was good in one leg and not so good in another. I don't dispute that he gets goals and assists but as I have pointed out earlier he doesn't make much of an impact consistently against the top teams (slagged off for his attitude in fact against Man City by Gary Neville which was put down as some sort of conspiracy on here! ). So I think you might be setting your standards too low in your definition of top class because if a player who periodically has a good game against the best in the league can be defined as top class I would ask whether you think someone like....I dunno....Gylfi Sigurdsson is top class because he also occasionally does alright against top opposition! Personally I would describe Ramsey as an above average midfielder who occasionally turns up in big fixtures against quality sides (I've already provided supporting evidence for this opinion) and that seems to put him right where he currently is: 5th to 7th in the premier league and playing in the Europa League. I don't see it that he is playing below his true standard, he's just not consistent enough, sorry. When he consistently performs against your Man Citys and Liverpools then I'll be jumping on the hype train with everyone else! PS: There is also an additional argument to be had about the quality of Serie A at the moment. Is he even going to be playing better opposition week in week out? Napoli and Inter Milan were both knocked out of the Champions League by English sides while England has 4 sides still left in the competition.... 'To be fair Robin makes a good point, if he was so highly rated how come no firm offers were made when his stock was at it's highest following the Euros? It's a lot easier getting involved when he is available on a free as a speculative punt -- where were the teams queueing up to pay 50 million plus for him?'
I can found you countless articles speculating the likes of Man City and Barcelona were after him in practically every transfer window since his breakthrough 2012/13 season. If you're after firm evidence of offers, then I can't provide that. But I also can't do the same for Messi or Harry Kane. Does that mean that no teams are interested in them? Of course not, it just means the teams don't believe they're available on the market - same with Ramsey up until now. "And to be fair, being voted Arsenal's best player last season is like winning the classic 'tallest dwarf competition', especially with Wenger at the helm."
Yes, being voted the best player in a team containing the likes of Ozil, Lacazette, Koscielny etc. is nothing to be proud. I despair... "I don't dispute that he gets goals and assists but as I have pointed out earlier he doesn't make much of an impact consistently against the top teams"
Nonsense. You won't find any player that has been brilliant everytime they've been up against good, well-organised sides. But that doesn't mean they're not great players. Ramsey performs against the big boys and in big occasions more often than most, as evidenced by his 2 FA Cup final winners, being one of the best players in the Euros (including against Belgium... again!), and his countless top class performances against the big boys in the english prem and abroad. There are several such games I could point you towards.
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Post by welshiron on Jan 7, 2019 14:44:13 GMT
Your forgetting Storm knows more about football than Wenger and all the manager's who want to sign him.
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Post by alarch on Jan 7, 2019 16:12:14 GMT
I'm more in accord with iot on this one. But there is one important element that isn't being considered in this discussion - Ramsey's poor injury record. Were it not for his poor injury history I think you would have seen a much more consistent high level of performance - because when he isn't injured he's often working his way back to full match fitness after his previous injury.
It is quite remarkable how many of our top midfielders have had their careers significantly impacted by injury. Bale was fortunate that in his breakthrough season with Spurs, where he scored wonder goal after wonder goal, he stayed injury-free. Without that, would Real Madrid have gambled on him? I doubt it - and if he does leave it will be far more down to his time on the treatment table than a lack of ability and impact when fully fit.
Ramsey's injury history must loom large in the considerations of any club considering buying him. Are you really going to fork out a huge transfer fee and huge wages on a player who's likely to be injured a good third of the time?
It's the same with Jonny Williams - only worse. He's never had the chance to prove himself at Premier League level, where his ability would place him (as a squad member of a club like Bournemouth as a minimum) - but thanks to his terrible injury history he's now only able to pick up a 6 months contract at League One level. I suspect the same fate awaits Emyr Huws once his Ipswich contract expires - unless there's a big turnaround in his fitness.
Returning to the question of Ramsey's ability. In my mind, he's world class - the litmus test for which in my view is whether you're good enough to start for the world's best club side (i.e. Barcelona or Real Madrid in recent years) or World Cup winners. Ramsey satisfies that criteria in my eyes (he's at least as good as Rakitic) - but when Ramsey finds himself on the injury table he's no use to anyone - which is an inescapable fact that colours the perception of his ability and impact.
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Post by insertname on Jan 7, 2019 16:53:00 GMT
Understatement of the century! To be fair Robin makes a good point, if he was so highly rated how come no firm offers were made when his stock was at it's highest following the Euros? It's a lot easier getting involved when he is available on a free as a speculative punt -- where were the teams queueing up to pay 50 million plus for him? His career has stagnated at Arsenal but he can only be held responsible for that so much if no-one wants to buy him. And to be fair, being voted Arsenal's best player last season is like winning the classic 'tallest dwarf competition', especially with Wenger at the helm. Arsenal last season were an unspectacular Europa league outfit and they and Ramsey came up short against Atletico where Ramsey (IIRC) was good in one leg and not so good in another. I don't dispute that he gets goals and assists but as I have pointed out earlier he doesn't make much of an impact consistently against the top teams (slagged off for his attitude in fact against Man City by Gary Neville which was put down as some sort of conspiracy on here! ). So I think you might be setting your standards too low in your definition of top class because if a player who periodically has a good game against the best in the league can be defined as top class I would ask whether you think someone like....I dunno....Gylfi Sigurdsson is top class because he also occasionally does alright against top opposition! Personally I would describe Ramsey as an above average midfielder who occasionally turns up in big fixtures against quality sides (I've already provided supporting evidence for this opinion) and that seems to put him right where he currently is: 5th to 7th in the premier league and playing in the Europa League. I don't see it that he is playing below his true standard, he's just not consistent enough, sorry. When he consistently performs against your Man Citys and Liverpools then I'll be jumping on the hype train with everyone else! PS: There is also an additional argument to be had about the quality of Serie A at the moment. Is he even going to be playing better opposition week in week out? Napoli and Inter Milan were both knocked out of the Champions League by English sides while England has 4 sides still left in the competition.... 'To be fair Robin makes a good point, if he was so highly rated how come no firm offers were made when his stock was at it's highest following the Euros? It's a lot easier getting involved when he is available on a free as a speculative punt -- where were the teams queueing up to pay 50 million plus for him?'
I can found you countless articles speculating the likes of Man City and Barcelona were after him in practically every transfer window since his breakthrough 2012/13 season. If you're after firm evidence of offers, then I can't provide that. But I also can't do the same for Messi or Harry Kane. Does that mean that no teams are interested in them? Of course not, it just means the teams don't believe they're available on the market - same with Ramsey up until now. "And to be fair, being voted Arsenal's best player last season is like winning the classic 'tallest dwarf competition', especially with Wenger at the helm."
Yes, being voted the best player in a team containing the likes of Ozil, Lacazette, Koscielny etc. is nothing to be proud. I despair... "I don't dispute that he gets goals and assists but as I have pointed out earlier he doesn't make much of an impact consistently against the top teams"
Nonsense. You won't find any player that has been brilliant everytime they've been up against good, well-organised sides. But that doesn't mean they're not great players. Ramsey performs against the big boys and in big occasions more often than most, as evidenced by his 2 FA Cup final winners, being one of the best players in the Euros (including against Belgium... again!), and his countless top class performances against the big boys in the english prem and abroad. There are several such games I could point you towards. Well however way you slice it he is still at Arsenal, no club has spent good money on him and it is telling that he is only leaving after running his contract down and the rumoured contract offer is way short of what he was hoping to get from Arsenal. All of that does not exactly paint a picture of a highly coveted player especially when you look at the likes of Bayern who are prepared to throw 30million on a teenager at Chelsea who has barely kicked a ball. On the subject of his countless top class performances against the big boys I can only produce my evidence to the contrary which are the games I have pointed out earlier on from this season which didn’t go too well for Arsenal and the 2 that did. I took a cursory look at some ratings to refresh my memory from the games that didn’t go so well and the absolute best that Ramsey was afforded was a 6.5 so I’m sorry this really does not paint the picture of a ‘top class’ player who usually does well in the big games (although there was the occasional caveat that Ramsey tried to improve things but to little avail). Still I’m sure someone will be along in a minute to claim that his less than stellar ratings are the work of a global conspiracy aimed at depriving Welsh players of the accolades they are due, or something….
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Post by insertname on Jan 7, 2019 16:58:48 GMT
I'm more in accord with iot on this one. But there is one important element that isn't being considered in this discussion - Ramsey's poor injury record. Were it not for his poor injury history I think you would have seen a much more consistent high level of performance - because when he isn't injured he's often working his way back to full match fitness after his previous injury. It is quite remarkable how many of our top midfielders have had their careers significantly impacted by injury. Bale was fortunate that in his breakthrough season with Spurs, where he scored wonder goal after wonder goal, he stayed injury-free. Without that, would Real Madrid have gambled on him? I doubt it - and if he does leave it will be far more down to his time on the treatment table than a lack of ability and impact when fully fit. Ramsey's injury history must loom large in the considerations of any club considering buying him. Are you really going to fork out a huge transfer fee and huge wages on a player who's likely to be injured a good third of the time? It's the same with Jonny Williams - only worse. He's never had the chance to prove himself at Premier League level, where his ability would place him (as a squad member of a club like Bournemouth as a minimum) - but thanks to his terrible injury history he's now only able to pick up a 6 months contract at League One level. I suspect the same fate awaits Emyr Huws once his Ipswich contract expires - unless there's a big turnaround in his fitness. Returning to the question of Ramsey's ability. In my mind, he's world class - the litmus test for which in my view is whether you're good enough to start for the world's best club side (i.e. Barcelona or Real Madrid in recent years) or World Cup winners. Ramsey satisfies that criteria in my eyes (he's at least as good as Rakitic) - but when Ramsey finds himself on the injury table he's no use to anyone - which is an inescapable fact that colours the perception of his ability and impact. I absolutely take the injury record into consideration and in my opinion it does make me wonder what might have been - would he have found a more consistent level to play at if it hadn't been for the leg break and the constant niggling injuries that caused him to miss months at a time mid-season? I think that has sadly become the hallmark of his career really, stop start due to injuries meaning he tends to operate in purple patches, such as the Euros and that first half of the season where he was world class but had his progress cut short by yet another injury. Perhaps being at Arsenal is holding him back full stop? That, to be fair, would not surprise me as like I say above although his ratings were generally poor against the better teams there was the caveat that he was the best of a bad bunch - perhaps Juventus will push his career to new level playing with a better standard of player? I can only hope so because at the moment, it does seem like he isn't living up to the career that was expected of him when he first emerged. He can't be blamed for injuries but he has to hold his hand up for his part in staying at Arsenal who had been in decline under Wenger for years.
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Post by pendragon on Jan 8, 2019 11:45:31 GMT
Interesting from Tosh: www.football-italia.net/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.football-italia.net%2F132896%2Ftoshack-my-advice-ramsey#article/footballitalia-132896“I don’t know if Aaron is disciplined enough to play in front of the defence. I am also not sure he scores enough to play close to the strikers. “He might do better in a three-man midfield, where he has the possibility to push forward, or perhaps in a three supporting the centre-forward. In modern football you do need to be versatile and he is a modern player.” “He has a unique opportunity to play with Cristiano Ronaldo, to grow, to improve, and that’s a lucky break for a lad who hasn’t had much luck,” “It’s crucial that Aaron doesn’t make the same mistake that Bale did at Madrid. He needs to learn the local language straight away. That might also be why it’s best he join Juve in the summer and not in January." Doesn't mince words, does he?!
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