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Post by welshiron on Nov 8, 2019 9:56:25 GMT
Because I could pretty much use that to argue anything, 'so and so is higher up and disagrees so you must be wrong', obviosuly managers are better qualified but it doesn't mean fans can't question wt they do. And anyway, Joe Allen isn't the first player to be unlucky not to make it at a top club, and he won't be the last, sometimes big clubs miss out, sometimes they don't. Most players find their level whether its epl or welsh league division 3. There are exceptions of course, is Joe one maybe. A few players got themselves out of Stoke but Joe stayed.
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Joe Allen
Nov 8, 2019 10:00:29 GMT
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Post by cadno on Nov 8, 2019 10:00:29 GMT
Because I could pretty much use that to argue anything, 'so and so is higher up and disagrees so you must be wrong', obviosuly managers are better qualified but it doesn't mean fans can't question wt they do. And anyway, Joe Allen isn't the first player to be unlucky not to make it at a top club, and he won't be the last, sometimes big clubs miss out, sometimes they don't. Most players find their level whether its epl or welsh league division 3. There are exceptions of course, is Joe one maybe. A few players got themselves out of Stoke but Joe stayed. I think it's obvious that Allen is far too good for the Championship. Pep Guardiola singled Joe Allen out as being a magnificent player, I think we can agree that he knows his stuff!
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Post by CrackityJones on Nov 8, 2019 10:09:32 GMT
I love Joe as much as the next Wales fan but its been far from obvious this season.
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Joe Allen
Nov 8, 2019 10:12:17 GMT
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Post by cadno on Nov 8, 2019 10:12:17 GMT
Playing for a poor team and rubbish club. He'd be performing better if he was with the Swans.
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Joe Allen
Nov 8, 2019 10:17:06 GMT
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Post by welshiron on Nov 8, 2019 10:17:06 GMT
Most players find their level whether its epl or welsh league division 3. There are exceptions of course, is Joe one maybe. A few players got themselves out of Stoke but Joe stayed. I think it's obvious that Allen is far too good for the Championship. Pep Guardiola singled Joe Allen out as being a magnificent player, I think we can agree that he knows his stuff! And pep signed him for how much?
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Joe Allen
Nov 8, 2019 10:22:23 GMT
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Post by cadno on Nov 8, 2019 10:22:23 GMT
I think it's obvious that Allen is far too good for the Championship. Pep Guardiola singled Joe Allen out as being a magnificent player, I think we can agree that he knows his stuff! And pep signed him for how much? Nice sidestep đź‘Ť
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 8, 2019 10:52:44 GMT
Most players find their level whether its epl or welsh league division 3. There are exceptions of course, is Joe one maybe. A few players got themselves out of Stoke but Joe stayed. I think it's obvious that Allen is far too good for the Championship. Pep Guardiola singled Joe Allen out as being a magnificent player, I think we can agree that he knows his stuff! Interesting, I’ve never read this. Do you have a link or anything?
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Post by cadno on Nov 8, 2019 13:33:48 GMT
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Post by alarch on Nov 8, 2019 16:34:39 GMT
That's why we miss him. I wasnt advocating a call up. Ledley was vital to that team and if you cant see that you no nothing about football, unless it's a possession game apparently. You've missed the point entirely. If you read my post on another thread you'd understand that I rate Ledley highly. His partnership with Allen played a massive part in our defensive solidity in qualifying for Euro2016. Although the possession game wasn't something he'd been brought up with, under Coleman he learned to win the ball and play the simple ball, typically to Allen or Ramsey. His pass completion rate was very high as a result, and his defensive solidity gave Allen more of a license to express himself offensively. Shame that Ledley's unlikely to perform that role for us again (although never say never) - but I've seen enough good things in Smith and Morrell to suggest they can provide decent cover for Ampadu to play alongside Allen and create the sort of synergies we saw against ROI at home, Slovakia at home and against Belarus.
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Post by robin1864 on Nov 8, 2019 17:15:34 GMT
Means very little though, doesn't it? Allen's stock has dropped considerably since Stoke, Shaqiri became a Champions League winner (again). If he were English I wouldn't give him a second thought and would consider him Jack Rodwell level.
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Joe Allen
Nov 8, 2019 17:31:30 GMT
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Post by cadno on Nov 8, 2019 17:31:30 GMT
Means very little though, doesn't it? Allen's stock has dropped considerably since Stoke, Shaqiri became a Champions League winner (again). If he were English I wouldn't give him a second thought and would consider him Jack Rodwell level. Sigh...oh come on.
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Joe Allen
Nov 8, 2019 17:37:54 GMT
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iot likes this
Post by sleepy on Nov 8, 2019 17:37:54 GMT
Means very little though, doesn't it? Allen's stock has dropped considerably since Stoke, Shaqiri became a Champions League winner (again). If he were English I wouldn't give him a second thought and would consider him Jack Rodwell level. Sigh...oh come on. It really does mean bugger all. It's very easy to praise without having to commit anything. Some serious Joe Allen blinkers going onhere. He's our best deep lying midfielder, but that's it. Please let's not compare with Xavi or Iniesta.
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Post by cadno on Nov 8, 2019 21:11:19 GMT
It really does mean bugger all. It's very easy to praise without having to commit anything. Some serious Joe Allen blinkers going onhere. He's our best deep lying midfielder, but that's it. Please let's not compare with Xavi or Iniesta. Sorry, I can't remember comparing Joe Allen to the same phenomenal level as Xavi or Iniesta. Please show me if I have, or did you make this up? Who's got blinkers on? All I've said is that Joe Allen is far too good for the Championship, which is true, and that Pep Guardiola said he was a very good player, which he did.
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Post by dai on Nov 8, 2019 21:38:35 GMT
Im divided over Joe these days.
He’s probably been our best consistent player over the past 5 years, world class in every game - I dont think you can say the same about any other Welsh player. Ramey is hit and miss, Bale has been on a steady decline since the Euro’s. Ben Davies only matches him for comsistency imo.
I do find it strange where he is at club level, especially when he can still pull out a world class display every game in international football. Thats my argument to those who say he’s not as good as we think, he proves it every time he pulls on the red shirt.
So there still is a very good player there, but no idea why he hasnt been more sought after.
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 8, 2019 22:11:10 GMT
Stoke seem like a toxic club at the moment. Can’t be easy going into that environment every day. Joe Allen is easily Premier League standard, just needs a transfer or a turn around at Stoke.
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Joe Allen
Nov 8, 2019 22:39:54 GMT
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Post by sleepy on Nov 8, 2019 22:39:54 GMT
It really does mean bugger all. It's very easy to praise without having to commit anything. Some serious Joe Allen blinkers going onhere. He's our best deep lying midfielder, but that's it. Please let's not compare with Xavi or Iniesta. Sorry, I can't remember comparing Joe Allen to the same phenomenal level as Xavi or Iniesta. Please show me if I have, or did you make this up? Who's got blinkers on? All I've said is that Joe Allen is far too good for the Championship, which is true, and that Pep Guardiola said he was a very good player, which he did. I didn't say you compared him to Xavi or Iniesta. Joe Allen is a solid performer, nothing more. I agree he's probably above championship standard, just. But I don't think he's streets ahead of, or would walk into, many premier league line up either. It doesn't really matter what you or I think though, fact is for the past 18 months he's been a championship player for a struggling club.
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Post by iot on Nov 8, 2019 22:52:09 GMT
Im divided over Joe these days. He’s probably been our best consistent player over the past 5 years, world class in every game - I dont think you can say the same about any other Welsh player. Ramey is hit and miss, Bale has been on a steady decline since the Euro’s. Ben Davies only matches him for comsistency imo. I do find it strange where he is at club level, especially when he can still pull out a world class display every game in international football. Thats my argument to those who say he’s not as good as we think, he proves it every time he pulls on the red shirt. So there still is a very good player there, but no idea why he hasnt been more sought after. "World class in every game" - come off it, that's a laughable comment. This campaign he's been very poor in one game, quite average in a couple, and good in a couple of others. Certainly no world class performance. In his position, world class for me would be really dominating a game - running the show like modric would do. He's nowhere near that
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Post by derynglas on Nov 9, 2019 10:20:45 GMT
Reports new manager Michael o'Neill may have to sell his big earners. Stoke's losses mean they are in danger of falling foul of EFL financial rules. Also being promised money dependant on player sales. Joey might get his chance to get out of there in January. Comparisons with Modric,Xavi,Iniesta(probably goat players in that position) are unhelpfull. Certainly not a mediocre championship player either though.Truth is somewhere in between as always.
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Joe Allen
Nov 9, 2019 10:20:57 GMT
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Post by cadno on Nov 9, 2019 10:20:57 GMT
Sorry, I can't remember comparing Joe Allen to the same phenomenal level as Xavi or Iniesta. Please show me if I have, or did you make this up? Who's got blinkers on? All I've said is that Joe Allen is far too good for the Championship, which is true, and that Pep Guardiola said he was a very good player, which he did. I didn't say you compared him to Xavi or Iniesta. Joe Allen is a solid performer, nothing more. I agree he's probably above championship standard, just. But I don't think he's streets ahead of, or would walk into, many premier league line up either. It doesn't really matter what you or I think though, fact is for the past 18 months he's been a championship player for a struggling club. "Please let's not compare with Xavi or Iniesta."
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Post by cadno on Nov 9, 2019 10:21:42 GMT
Reports new manager Michael o'Neill may have to sell his big earners. Stoke's losses mean they are in danger of falling foul of EFL financial rules. Also being promised money dependant on player sales. Joey might get his chance to get out of there in January. Comparisons with Modric,Xavi,Iniesta(probably goat players in that position) are unhelpfull. Certainly not a mediocre championship player either though.Truth is somewhere in between as always. There have been no comparisons to them!!! Fake news!!
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Joe Allen
Nov 9, 2019 10:59:25 GMT
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Post by iot on Nov 9, 2019 10:59:25 GMT
Reports new manager Michael o'Neill may have to sell his big earners. Stoke's losses mean they are in danger of falling foul of EFL financial rules. Also being promised money dependant on player sales. Joey might get his chance to get out of there in January. Comparisons with Modric,Xavi,Iniesta(probably goat players in that position) are unhelpfull. Certainly not a mediocre championship player either though.Truth is somewhere in between as always. There have been no comparisons to them!!! Fake news!! Well, apparently all his performances for Wales have been world class. Presumably that means the best in the world, does it not?
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Joe Allen
Nov 9, 2019 11:05:39 GMT
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Post by cadno on Nov 9, 2019 11:05:39 GMT
There have been no comparisons to them!!! Fake news!! Well, apparently all his performances for Wales have been world class. Presumably that means the best in the world, does it not? I haven't said that, but I watched our game vs Russia back last night, Ledley was brilliant, Allen was phenomenal!
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Joe Allen
Nov 9, 2019 12:36:06 GMT
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Post by iot on Nov 9, 2019 12:36:06 GMT
Well, apparently all his performances for Wales have been world class. Presumably that means the best in the world, does it not? I haven't said that, but I watched our game vs Russia back last night, Ledley was brilliant, Allen was phenomenal! Don't disagree at all with that - he was phenomenal, as he was throughout the tournament. To reiterate, I think he's in our top 5 (if not top 3) most important players and has been a crucial player for us over the years. However, I just get slightly annoyed when people so easily discount his form in the championship and the constant excuses. If he is as good as some think, he should thrive in that league and should be dominating games, dictating play, controlling the tempo of games and allowing stoke to boss games. That's what you'd expect from one of the best midfielders in the league to do from that position, but he's clearly not doing that. It's not a position where he's on the periphery of play, you could understand if a top level winger struggled in a poor, disjointed team. He's in a position where you generally have the most influence on games.
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Joe Allen
Nov 9, 2019 12:57:19 GMT
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Post by sleepy on Nov 9, 2019 12:57:19 GMT
I didn't say you compared him to Xavi or Iniesta. Joe Allen is a solid performer, nothing more. I agree he's probably above championship standard, just. But I don't think he's streets ahead of, or would walk into, many premier league line up either. It doesn't really matter what you or I think though, fact is for the past 18 months he's been a championship player for a struggling club. "Please let's not compare with Xavi or Iniesta." Not by you. But by others in this thread. If you were picking a championship best 11, I bet you'd pick Joe Allen. And Jonny Williams. Correct me if I'm wrong on that point.
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Post by cadno on Nov 9, 2019 13:20:48 GMT
"Please let's not compare with Xavi or Iniesta." Not by you. But by others in this thread. If you were picking a championship best 11, I bet you'd pick Joe Allen. And Jonny Williams. Correct me if I'm wrong on that point. Pretty sure Jonny Williams was near the top for assits and chances created before getting injured, so yeah it wouldn't he outrageous to include him :-) Allen would make it, as alarch has previously said, if Allen was playing for the Swans, or Leeds, then his performances would be better, he's at an unstable club and theres clearly no cohesion there, if he was at a better team with better players then it's bliwmin common sense that we'd see the best of him. Pogba doesn't perform as well for United as he doed for France (I'm not comparing joe allen to Paul Pogba before you lose it), my point is, he has much better players around him in the France squad, and United are also unstable atm, thus we see the best of Pogba when he's playing for Les Bleus. Zouma is another one ! he was pretty poor for Everton (unstable team atm), but he's been pretty good whenever I've watched Chelsea this season. We will see Allen thrive at club level if he finds a good team, fact. Time will tell !
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Post by cadno on Nov 9, 2019 13:27:40 GMT
Also, if the rest of the team are performing badly, Central Midfield is a difficult position to stand out, even if you're perfroming well it can be so frustrating when others arent on the same wavelength, and you find yourself having to do double the work. When you're in a good side, like our Euro 2016 team, you stand out more.
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Joe Allen
Nov 9, 2019 13:31:46 GMT
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Post by cadno on Nov 9, 2019 13:31:46 GMT
Stoke seem like a toxic club at the moment. Can’t be easy going into that environment every day. Joe Allen is easily Premier League standard, just needs a transfer or a turn around at Stoke. Yes....
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Post by alarch on Nov 9, 2019 13:38:08 GMT
"Please let's not compare with Xavi or Iniesta." Not by you. But by others in this thread. If you were picking a championship best 11, I bet you'd pick Joe Allen. And Jonny Williams. Correct me if I'm wrong on that point. I assume that it was a dig at me then. Being kind I assume you're just being disingenuous in interpreting my exposition of the possession game by talking about the synergies generated by playing Iniesta, Xavi and Messi as indicating that I thought that Allen was at their level. I could have given the Allen, Britton and Sigurdsson combination when Swansea first arrived in the Premier League (e.g when Swansea played Fulham to a standstill at their patch in March 2012: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/17323829) as an example of greater than the sum of the parts synergies of a midfield where all players in central areas are comfortable on the ball - but I guess not everyone would be au fait with the exploits of the Swanselona side of 2011/12. I find it disappointing how some, perhaps many, posters on this site seem obsessed with the current club status of our players - and attach a significance to it that ignores facts. We know what Allen is capable of, just as we know what Ramsey and Bale are capable of when fully fit. Yet, time and time again, players are written off prematurely (add Ashley Williams and Jonny Williams to that list). I can understand the frustration when players are unavailable repeatedly through injury, but lets have a bit of perspective here.
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Post by alarch on Nov 9, 2019 13:41:46 GMT
Also, if the rest of the team are performing badly, Central Midfield is a difficult position to stand out, even if you're perfroming well it can be so frustrating when others arent on the same wavelength, and you find yourself having to do double the work. When you're in a good side, like our Euro 2016 team, you stand out more. Very succinctly put. It's also worth noting that Allen has been used in a variety of roles by Stoke, often playing further forwards. I don't think they've played with a 4-2-3-1 much since Hughes left.
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Post by iot on Nov 9, 2019 14:54:03 GMT
Not by you. But by others in this thread. If you were picking a championship best 11, I bet you'd pick Joe Allen. And Jonny Williams. Correct me if I'm wrong on that point. I assume that it was a dig at me then. Being kind I assume you're just being disingenuous in interpreting my exposition of the possession game by talking about the synergies generated by playing Iniesta, Xavi and Messi as indicating that I thought that Allen was at their level. I could have given the Allen, Britton and Sigurdsson combination when Swansea first arrived in the Premier League (e.g when Swansea played Fulham to a standstill at their patch in March 2012: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/17323829) as an example of greater than the sum of the parts synergies of a midfield where all players in central areas are comfortable on the ball - but I guess not everyone would be au fait with the exploits of the Swanselona side of 2011/12. I find it disappointing how some, perhaps many, posters on this site seem obsessed with the current club status of our players - and attach a significance to it that ignores facts. We know what Allen is capable of, just as we know what Ramsey and Bale are capable of when fully fit. Yet, time and time again, players are written off prematurely (add Ashley Williams and Jonny Williams to that list). I can understand the frustration when players are unavailable repeatedly through injury, but lets have a bit of perspective here. Come off it - so we shouldn't attach any significance to club status and club form? On that basis, how dare anyone claim that david healy, kyle lafferty and kieffer moore aren't world class players. Players can be under/over rated in football, but club standing + the level of demand from other clubs are pretty good measures of a player's ability / standing in the game. They may be crude, but they're the best measures we've got. Also, I don't think anyone's writing Allen off (not sure where you get that from) - I haven't seen anyone say he's anything other than a key player for us. But let's face it, he's not as good as many of us once thought - not anymore anyway. I would argue he's not quite as good as he was a couple of seasons ago.
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