|
Post by georgetm1 on Oct 1, 2010 8:17:34 GMT
That was Toshacks fault that we lost to Montenegro, his tactics were totally wrong. The defence were bypassing the midfield by hoofing the ball to the strikers. No wonder our midfield were terrible during the game, they were rarely given the opportunity to be involved in any attacking play. I'm sure those were Tosh's instructions to the letter. He also told them not to tackle, pressure or complete passes. James Collins was also under strict orders to allow Vucinic to ghost past him. Tosh is so mean- I reckon he caused 9/11, or at least he didn't do enough to stop it due to the press conference in which he was overly critical of Islam. I also read on a forum that he fell out with several senior Muslim clerics behind closed doors, all of whom had been close to Mark Hughes. Mark Hughes, nearly over threw the west and had massive support from the arab world. Thing is this was'nt the first time that Wales played so ineptly under Toshack, so it was his fault. First game of the qualifying round against the supposedly worst team in the group and we got outplayed, showed no fight and were pretty lucky it was only 1-0.
|
|
|
Post by flynnfan on Oct 1, 2010 15:39:16 GMT
george- Your post reminds me of a conversation Steve Claridge had with John Hartson on radio five a couple of weeks back. Basically, Claridge was saying that nobody expects Wales to be world beaters, but that the manager should be the right person to get the absolute best out of the players he has available. Did Toshack? Unfortunately, not very often imo. (Or most Wales fans I imagine)
This is why I'm such a fan of Flynn (as the name implies!) He tends to get the best out of his players. The U21s are a great example- We've competed with and beaten the likes of Italy and France, with lots of players from lower league (even non league in Neil Taylors case) taking the game to opponents who play regularly in some of the best leagues in the world. There was a stat before we drew the England game at Villa park which I think said our starting line up had something like 4 premiership appearances between them (3 for Collison and 1 for Ramsey perhaps?) whereas the England starting line up had something like 600!! Flynn understands that he has to install a David and Goliath (Dai and Goliath?!) attitude. I'm not sure Tosh ever really understood that...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2010 20:36:38 GMT
george- Your post reminds me of a conversation Steve Claridge had with John Hartson on radio five a couple of weeks back. Basically, Claridge was saying that nobody expects Wales to be world beaters, but that the manager should be the right person to get the absolute best out of the players he has available. Did Toshack? Unfortunately, not very often imo. (Or most Wales fans I imagine) This is why I'm such a fan of Flynn (as the name implies!) He tends to get the best out of his players. The U21s are a great example- We've competed with and beaten the likes of Italy and France, with lots of players from lower league (even non league in Neil Taylors case) taking the game to opponents who play regularly in some of the best leagues in the world. There was a stat before we drew the England game at Villa park which I think said our starting line up had something like 4 premiership appearances between them (3 for Collison and 1 for Ramsey perhaps?) whereas the England starting line up had something like 600!! Flynn understands that he has to install a David and Goliath (Dai and Goliath?!) attitude. I'm not sure Tosh ever really understood that... It really has nothing to do with "attitude", it has to do with the relative qualities of the players available to the respective managers. Tosh believed that, fundamentally, Wales lacked the quality and depth to qualify and sort to cure this by giving enormous power and support to Bryan Flynn in charge of youth development to provide a large enough squad of technically proficient footballers that Wales wouldn't qualify for just one tournament but several. Flynn has done very well and is eternally optimistic, whereas- partially as a consequence of the grind of the job- Toshack was pessimistic. Ultimately, they are two sides of the same coin, and both have the potential to end in disaster. That said, I have a genuine hope that Tosh has made enough of the hard decisions that Flynn doesn't have to make that many. At the very least Flynn is ignoring Robbie Savage's answer messages. If that isn't a positive step I don't know what is.
|
|
|
Post by flynnfan on Oct 1, 2010 21:28:20 GMT
You really think international football has nothing to do with 'attitude'? Really? Because watching the world cup, that's what struck me as the most impresive thing about the USA.
And you don't think Toshacks constant negativity- talking down our young players, talking up the oppostion, setting teams up to defend against lower seeded teams at home etc had a negative effect on our players?!
And Flynn isn't ignoring Savage btw- he says on that BBC interview that he's left him a message. I hope he said something like 'I'll consider you only if your form makes an unassailable case for a recall'. Because 1- I don't think Savage ever will. And 2 - I doubt he knows what 'unassailable' means anyway...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2010 22:26:31 GMT
george- Your post reminds me of a conversation Steve Claridge had with John Hartson on radio five a couple of weeks back. Basically, Claridge was saying that nobody expects Wales to be world beaters, but that the manager should be the right person to get the absolute best out of the players he has available. Did Toshack? Unfortunately, not very often imo. (Or most Wales fans I imagine) This is why I'm such a fan of Flynn (as the name implies!) He tends to get the best out of his players. The U21s are a great example- We've competed with and beaten the likes of Italy and France, with lots of players from lower league (even non league in Neil Taylors case) taking the game to opponents who play regularly in some of the best leagues in the world. There was a stat before we drew the England game at Villa park which I think said our starting line up had something like 4 premiership appearances between them (3 for Collison and 1 for Ramsey perhaps?) whereas the England starting line up had something like 600!! Flynn understands that he has to install a David and Goliath (Dai and Goliath?!) attitude. I'm not sure Tosh ever really understood that... Well we all remember the pre-match interview against Holland where he spoke like we were just there to keep the score down. Im sure that attitude must have been inspirational to our players during his reign. I agree, at least Flynn will not worry so much about the opposition and make them worry about us. That sort of attitude is exactly what helps other minnows of comparable size such as NI get results.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2010 23:31:11 GMT
You really think international football has nothing to do with 'attitude'? Really? Because watching the world cup, that's what struck me as the most impresive thing about the USA. And you don't think Toshacks constant negativity- talking down our young players, talking up the oppostion, setting teams up to defend against lower seeded teams at home etc had a negative effect on our players?! And Flynn isn't ignoring Savage btw- he says on that BBC interview that he's left him a message. I hope he said something like 'I'll consider you only if your form makes an unassailable case for a recall'. Because 1- I don't think Savage ever will. And 2 - I doubt he knows what 'unassailable' means anyway... I did not say that international football had nothing to do with attitude- I stated that their respective successes had nothing, or little, to do with attitude. Tosh went into said Holland game with a deeply dimished side with the likes of Ricketts, Robinson, Williams (at centre half), Morgan, Ledley, etc. Flynn, though his players were young and inexperienced possessed flair and technique many times the excess of the senior players. Tosh realised our limits were extraordinairy. Now, this was never true of the under 21s. It's one thing to say a player that isn't getting a huge amount of game time at Arsenal may impose himself on a bench player at Milan. It's a whole different ball game to tell a Palace midfielder he needs to lok after Wesley Sneijder. That said, I like Flynn alot. What he has done with Wales youth is immense. But Tosh, quite rightly had to do alot of unpleasant things to instil a sense of standards and discipline. If Flynn undermines that by bringing back egotistical donkeys like Collins and Savage, he runs a very real risk of being caught short by the jolly boys holiday experience that broke 2 games without win records under Mark Hughes. Internationals are not a holiday. Except for Sav's wife.
|
|
|
Post by walrus on Oct 2, 2010 4:20:10 GMT
It always disappointed me that a large section of Wales supporters were not prepared to go the distance with Tosh. It was apparent that revolution was needed and that there would be blood. Tosh came looking for a fight and got one. He fell on his sword when the large part of his job was done: accelerating talented youth and saying goodbye to the half commited. If Flynn turns out to be a beggar then we are back to 442 roll the sleeves up and enjoy the occasional success like we always have and as NI currently do. Tosh's revolution was for longer term sustained success but the impatient have possibly scupperd that for short term gain. I sincerely hope that Flynn is the one. Only time will tell.
|
|
|
Post by georgetm1 on Oct 2, 2010 10:08:51 GMT
If anyone has any doubts of Flynn taking over Toshack, watch this. It shows something Toshack could never instill, team spirit and a never give up attitude. www.s4c.co.uk/sgorio/e_/cymrudan17
|
|
|
Post by idiot on Oct 2, 2010 10:37:28 GMT
tbh i dont care if celtic fans rate him,if i was reading comments from a premier league club that he was doing well then i'd be impressed/pleased
i cannot understand why a young player with potential would choose the scottish league over the premier league,a player coming to the end of his career fair enough but at that stage of his career....no
shows a lack of confidence in his own ability,no desire to better himself or to challenge himself against the better players
|
|
|
Post by georgetm1 on Oct 2, 2010 10:51:10 GMT
tbh i dont care if celtic fans rate him,if i was reading comments from a premier league club that he was doing well then i'd be impressed/pleased i cannot understand why a young player with potential would choose the scottish league over the premier league,a player coming to the end of his career fair enough but at that stage of his career....no shows a lack of confidence in his own ability,no desire to better himself or to challenge himself against the better players I think you are being a bit harsh on him and Celtic. I would class Celtic as the same level as a mid table premier league club with one of the largest fan bases in Britain. There is obviously something about Celtic that impressed him more than any of the EPL clubs. And if he is guaranteed European football every season, then why not. At least he is guaranteed to be playing week in week out. He may have had a bad game against Montenegro but so did the rest of the team, and a player cant just turn crap overnight.
|
|
|
Post by idiot on Oct 2, 2010 12:25:42 GMT
tbh i dont care if celtic fans rate him,if i was reading comments from a premier league club that he was doing well then i'd be impressed/pleased i cannot understand why a young player with potential would choose the scottish league over the premier league,a player coming to the end of his career fair enough but at that stage of his career....no shows a lack of confidence in his own ability,no desire to better himself or to challenge himself against the better players I think you are being a bit harsh on him and Celtic. I would class Celtic as the same level as a mid table premier league club with one of the largest fan bases in Britain. There is obviously something about Celtic that impressed him more than any of the EPL clubs. And if he is guaranteed European football every season, then why not. At least he is guaranteed to be playing week in week out. He may have had a bad game against Montenegro but so did the rest of the team, and a player cant just turn crap overnight. dont get me wrong,celtic are a decent club with a big fan base..but what is he going to get out of playing the likes of st.mirren etc week in week out,he will lose his sharpness and there's a danger he will become lazy,there's already sign's of that from his last few months at cardiff and the way he played against montenegro that he might be losing focus,he also appears to have gained weight,possibly another sign he's not quite 100% focused as for playing in europe on a regular basis well......for a couple of games a year maybe
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2010 18:37:36 GMT
...out of Tuesdays game. His Mrs is due to give birth.
|
|
|
Post by muaythai on Oct 9, 2010 18:56:57 GMT
hmm more dropouts
|
|
|
Post by idiot on Oct 9, 2010 19:03:07 GMT
understandable
|
|
|
Post by muaythai on Oct 9, 2010 19:03:46 GMT
yeh just gets worse though lol
|
|
|
Post by idiot on Oct 9, 2010 19:07:55 GMT
he's been struggling anyway,be good to see someone else given a chance
we are 2 matches into a qualifying group and we are already at a stage where its time to try new blood/new things in preparation for the next qualifiers ;D
|
|
|
Post by muaythai on Oct 9, 2010 19:09:47 GMT
seems to be the same scenario every qualifiers lol
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2010 21:42:42 GMT
seems to be the same scenario every qualifiers lol The only change is that we go out earlier! Two games in is pretty ****ing ridiculous mind. What next, out in one game for Brazil 2014? Maybe we will be in pre-qualifying with San Marino! ;D
|
|
|
Post by raptor on Oct 10, 2010 8:25:38 GMT
I feel Ledley is a victim of his injuries, uncertain future of CCFC and his own indecision as to where he wanted to play.
He's been poor for so long now. However he is generally decent enough, give him 6 months in a Celtic shirt to rediscover his form and direction but don't pick him for Wales.
|
|
|
Post by welshorp on Oct 10, 2010 10:54:53 GMT
this is great news. hes useless. When King came on he was attacking and we created some good play.
King will start Tuesday and hopefully flynn will go 2 upfront with either church morrison or church kanu
|
|
|
Post by cymroircarn on Oct 10, 2010 11:09:03 GMT
this is great news. hes useless. When King came on he was attacking and we created some good play. King will start Tuesday and hopefully flynn will go 2 upfront with either church morrison or church kanu Kanu is out as well
|
|
|
Post by welshorp on Oct 10, 2010 11:10:14 GMT
why??
|
|
|
Post by cymroircarn on Oct 10, 2010 11:15:51 GMT
|
|
|
Post by idiot on Oct 10, 2010 12:00:19 GMT
I feel Ledley is a victim of his injuries, uncertain future of CCFC and his own indecision as to where he wanted to play. He's been poor for so long now. However he is generally decent enough, give him 6 months in a Celtic shirt to rediscover his form and direction but don't pick him for Wales. i think it was when cardiff refused to sell him to stoke for 6million that he started to slide he needs to sort his head out anyway,maybe hiding at celtic might not be the worst thing for him at the moment
|
|
|
Post by youngdragon on Oct 10, 2010 15:23:16 GMT
sorry everyone but the answer to a player playing below average at international level is NOT a few more months at celtic, the only thing that will do is ruin his ability and his mental state when he finally realises that he could have done so much better
|
|
|
Post by bale-droed on Oct 10, 2010 16:11:19 GMT
yes ledley has been poor of late butt we all know how could he can be his confidence has just been low for a while. why don't we all get behind him next game instead of instantly thinking he's going to be shit before he's even kicked a ball.
|
|
|
Post by flynnfan on Jan 6, 2011 20:15:59 GMT
Just thought I'd post this link because it was a cracking piece of play from Joe to set up Celtic's first goal at the weekend. Good interception followed by a superb long pass to Samaras to break the deadlock. Reminds me a bit of Bodins ball for Rush vs Germany in 91! Ledley has been under the radar a bit since heading up to Celtic, but he seems to be doing well up there. Not all of our players play in 'the English leagues' george! Maybe he hasn't been at his best at international level over the past 18 months or so but I've got a feeling that he'll be a big player for Wales over the next few years - similar to Hartson after he moved up there. I lived in Scotland for a while- it made me feel more Welsh being up there. I think Joe might feel that way too... Cracking commentary on this btw: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRVPaA85kqo
|
|
|
Post by georgetm1 on Jan 8, 2011 21:05:19 GMT
When I was talking about players playing abroad I meant on the continent, not somewhere where you don't need a passport to get in.
|
|
|
Post by cymroircarn on Jan 8, 2011 23:11:54 GMT
Great pass, but what was the keeper doing?!?!
|
|
|
Post by flynnfan on Jan 8, 2011 23:44:31 GMT
But you didn't say that george. You said 'all our players play in the English leagues'. Go up to Scotland and ask people there what they think of Joe Ledleys recent performances in the 'English leagues' if you'd like to find out what a Glasgow kiss is.
|
|