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Giggs
May 15, 2012 15:02:12 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 15, 2012 15:02:12 GMT
It depends on what the criteria is. If you have to have played in every season, then yeah, clearly he wins. If they are talking about the best player to have played in the epl, then he wouldn't make the top 20. Don't you think that's a bit churlish Trendy? Do you remember his performances in his early 20s? Do you remember Utd v Juventus in 1997 in the CL? Utd won 3-2 with Giggs scoring a late screamer to make it 3-1 and Zidane getting a sumptuous injury time free kick to close it to 3-2. After the game Zidane was asked about the game. He said as far as he was concerned there were only two players on the pitch that day. One was him and the other, just a little better than even Zidane was Giggs. There are many other footballing legends (Del Piero said watching Giggs for the first time made him cry - ok he is Italian) who will testify the same.
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Giggs
May 15, 2012 16:43:23 GMT
Post by stu on May 15, 2012 16:43:23 GMT
So your response to a comment that Giggs is not the best player from the Premier League era is to pick out a performance in a non premier league game. If I'm ever on trial I wont be asking for you to be my lawyer
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Giggs
May 15, 2012 18:11:25 GMT
Post by welshwizard79 on May 15, 2012 18:11:25 GMT
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Giggs
May 15, 2012 19:15:43 GMT
Post by Tim P on May 15, 2012 19:15:43 GMT
Don't you think that's a bit churlish Trendy? Do you remember his performances in his early 20s? Do you remember Utd v Juventus in 1997 in the CL? Utd won 3-2 with Giggs scoring a late screamer to make it 3-1 and Zidane getting a sumptuous injury time free kick to close it to 3-2. After the game Zidane was asked about the game. He said as far as he was concerned there were only two players on the pitch that day. One was him and the other, just a little better than even Zidane was Giggs. There are many other footballing legends (Del Piero said watching Giggs for the first time made him cry - ok he is Italian) who will testify the same. I remember him getting booed in his mid twenties (and also in his mid thirties). You've highlighted one game. That's the problem. You could maybe highlight four or five other bits of magic. Ferguson built sides around certain players - never Giggs. Why was that? Giggs isn't fit to lace Ronaldo's boots. He tried to replace him - several times. Essentially, Giggs has been the perfect squad man. Loyal, docile, and easy to manipulate. A very, very good player, with superb longevity, but never, ever, in the league of Zidane (a quite ludicrous example to use, if you don;t mind me saying).
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Giggs
May 15, 2012 19:16:38 GMT
Post by Tim P on May 15, 2012 19:16:38 GMT
So your response to a comment that Giggs is not the best player from the Premier League era is to pick out a performance in a non premier league game. If I'm ever on trial I wont be asking for you to be my lawyer ;D
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 9:19:52 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 9:19:52 GMT
So your response to a comment that Giggs is not the best player from the Premier League era is to pick out a performance in a non premier league game. If I'm ever on trial I wont be asking for you to be my lawyer ;D Ha ha boys. I know you are Giggs haters and I agree he has treated Wales with disdain as a result of being a citizen of Mancunia first and foremost. I was only trying to highlight his qualities as a football player. The history books in 50 years would suggest that you guys are talking out of your arses though.
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 9:57:53 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 9:57:53 GMT
Giggs sh*tting on wales again,mind you he's done that for the last 20 years aswell!
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 10:31:32 GMT
Post by njdragon on May 16, 2012 10:31:32 GMT
what is it with all these giggs haters, it just comes across as bitter. He retired from Wales, lets get over it. In wales we seem to be always to keen to bash and play down our best assets.
We all know he has had recurring injury problems with his hamstrings throughout the years and made the decision to retire to prolong a lucrative career playing at the highest level. Ok he was heavily influenced by fergie but how long could he keep playing internationally and domestically.
A lot more players retired in worse circumstances - koumas, gabbidon, savage... at least giggs bowed out gracefully and announced his retirement and his last game rather than just pulling out of a squad last minute and retiring.
He has been a good representative for wales throughout the years and we have been recognised on the world stage because of him. I remember being out in Italy at the time we beat them and all the papers were full of diagrams of how to deal with giggsy.
He's constantly having to state he is proud to be welsh and to have played for wales to the media. He has never once said he would have chosen england or any other nationality if he had the chance to play in a major tournament.
To my knowledge he has never once referred to the english team as 'we' either
We'll all prob be calling bale a twat in 20 years time too
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 10:55:28 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 10:55:28 GMT
what is it with all these giggs haters, it just comes across as bitter. He retired from Wales, lets get over it. In wales we seem to be always to keen to bash and play down our best assets. We all know he has had recurring injury problems with his hamstrings throughout the years and made the decision to retire to prolong a lucrative career playing at the highest level. Ok he was heavily influenced by fergie but how long could he keep playing internationally and domestically. A lot more players retired in worse circumstances - koumas, gabbidon, savage... at least giggs bowed out gracefully and announced his retirement and his last game rather than just pulling out of a squad last minute and retiring. He has been a good representative for wales throughout the years and we have been recognised on the world stage because of him. I remember being out in Italy at the time we beat them and all the papers were full of diagrams of how to deal with giggsy. He's constantly having to state he is proud to be welsh and to have played for wales to the media. He has never once said he would have chosen england or any other nationality if he had the chance to play in a major tournament. To my knowledge he has never once referred to the english team as 'we' either We'll all prob be calling bale a twat in 20 years time too Fair shout.
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 11:20:11 GMT
Post by georgetm1 on May 16, 2012 11:20:11 GMT
what is it with all these giggs haters, it just comes across as bitter. He retired from Wales, lets get over it. In wales we seem to be always to keen to bash and play down our best assets. We all know he has had recurring injury problems with his hamstrings throughout the years and made the decision to retire to prolong a lucrative career playing at the highest level. Ok he was heavily influenced by fergie but how long could he keep playing internationally and domestically. A lot more players retired in worse circumstances - koumas, gabbidon, savage... at least giggs bowed out gracefully and announced his retirement and his last game rather than just pulling out of a squad last minute and retiring. He has been a good representative for wales throughout the years and we have been recognised on the world stage because of him. I remember being out in Italy at the time we beat them and all the papers were full of diagrams of how to deal with giggsy. He's constantly having to state he is proud to be welsh and to have played for wales to the media. He has never once said he would have chosen england or any other nationality if he had the chance to play in a major tournament. To my knowledge he has never once referred to the english team as 'we' either We'll all prob be calling bale a twat in 20 years time too Its the fact that he missed nearly as many games as he played. He went through a period of not playing a freindly for Wales for 9 years and then when he did it was only because it was the opening game in the Millenium Stadium. And all of a sudden he seems to be having nowhere near as many "injuries" as he was when Wales needed him. And the FAW still seem to be sniffing around his cornhole whenever we need a new manager. To me he always seemed a bit part player for Wales when ever he could be bothered, and because he played well for Man United, it brought the mentality of pass it to Giggs to the detriment of our play. His talent didn't actually do much for us, but Bale on the other hand is a different story.
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 11:23:00 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 11:23:00 GMT
Some fairpoints,were talking about giggs cause this is a giggs thread!lets be honest giggs hamstrings got alot worse as soon as the word wales was mentioned and then he'd be fine again the following weekend for utd!playing for your country is an honor something giggs never got,the likes of eric young not born in wales no welsh links other than a "uk" passport gave everything for wales never pulled out of a wales squad contrast that to mr.giggs and then you'll get why some of us have no time for mr.giggs.Giggs is a utd icon fair enough as for wales different story!
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 11:30:35 GMT
Post by njdragon on May 16, 2012 11:30:35 GMT
He was a bit part player because of injuries, this had to be managed and unfortunately wales suffered because of this. With him missing so many games. He could hardly have chosen wales over united. It doesn't work like that.
Perhaps he doesn't have these injuries anymore because he's not playing for Wales, i also think it's well documented how he has adapted to carry on playing at the highest level.
I don't think he can be blamed for the pass it to giggs mentality of players and fans either.
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 11:35:50 GMT
Post by njdragon on May 16, 2012 11:35:50 GMT
Some fairpoints,were talking about giggs cause this is a giggs thread!lets be honest giggs hamstrings got alot worse as soon as the word wales was mentioned and then he'd be fine again the following weekend for utd!playing for your country is an honor something giggs never got,the likes of eric young not born in wales no welsh links other than a "uk" passport gave everything for wales never pulled out of a wales squad contrast that to mr.giggs and then you'll get why some of us have no time for mr.giggs.Giggs is a utd icon fair enough as for wales different story! Yeh fair enough he was certainly no legend in a welsh shirt but i don't think he deserves the stick he now gets.
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 11:48:14 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 11:48:14 GMT
I'd give my right arm to have the talent to play for wales once,mr.giggs had that talent and kept letting wales down so i think he deserves all the stick he gets and more!
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 11:55:42 GMT
Post by njdragon on May 16, 2012 11:55:42 GMT
well no, as it was catch 22 for him. Play for wales and risk his hamstring and his united career which in turn could ruin his chances for wales. Carry on playing for wales which also in turn could ruin his whole career and then no good to wales again.
Its not as black and white as everyone makes out. He's not the villain and the reason why we haven't qualified for so long.
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 12:01:37 GMT
Post by llannerch on May 16, 2012 12:01:37 GMT
I'm not his biggest fan, but neither will I slate him as much as most do. His early Wales performances were very good and he elctrified crowds like very few players I have ever seen (Bale is the only Welsh player that comes close). Those who are too young to remember his early internationals are also unaware of the the zeitgeist he came to personify: moving games to the Arms Park, beating the likes of Brazil and Germany, narrowly qualifying, etc. It was a terrific time.
Had his formative international career continued under Yorath, rather than Smith and Gould, would he have a different regard among Welsh fans? The excitement of the early 90s dissipated very quickly. His continued absence from friendlies was appalling though and he has to accept his share of criticism for that (and Fergie; not that he'd care). But that his absences from friendlies was the root cause of our mid to late 90s struggles, as I have heard people claim a few times following Wales, is unfair and grossly reductionist. We were a shambles and many senior players were also disillusioned with things. He only played 11 times (give or take a couple of appearances) between 1994 and 1999. After that his record wasn't too bad.
Should he have played more often during the mid 90s? Definitely. Is it the defining feature of his international career? For many, but not for me
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 12:16:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 12:16:50 GMT
Agreed the early 90's was incredible i can still see that free kick against belguim in the arms park he took over the top of the wall and flew past prued homme the belgian keeper!what a night!That 90s team was the best welsh side ive seen!Thats the biggest disappointment for me he did'nt do it enough for wales!no it was'nt his fault we did'nt qualify but his continuing absense did'nt help!
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 12:25:46 GMT
Post by llannerch on May 16, 2012 12:25:46 GMT
he did'nt do it enough for wales I'm sorry but this is revisionist or selective thinking. How many times did he 'do it'? And how many times would have been enough? That 'he didn't do it enough' is just received wisdom. He regualrly bust a gut on the field being, as he usually was, our only attacking option. He was often excellent under Sparky and under Tosh when played up front with Bellamy (Austria away anyone?). Him and Speed, if legend is correct, were also the ringleaders of the coup that led to Gould's resignation. For that he deserves immense and eternal credit.
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 12:35:00 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 12:35:00 GMT
he did'nt do it enough for wales I'm sorry but this is revisionist or selective thinking. How many times did he 'do it'? And how many times would have been enough? That 'he didn't do it enough' is just received wisdom. He regualrly bust a gut on the field being, as he usually was, our only attacking option. He was often excellent under Sparky and under Tosh when played up front with Bellamy (Austria away anyone?). Him and Speed, if legend is correct, were also the ringleaders of the coup that led to Gould's resignation. For that he deserves immense and eternal credit. Good points Llanerch on this thread. I agree with all of them. I know John Charles was based in Italy but he freely admitted in his book he didn't play for Wales as much as he should have either. Sure Juventus had some influence on him but more often than not it was just fatigue from playing at the very highest level week in week out. And JC was in a much better Wales side than Giggs (especially as you point out the shambles of the mid to late 1990s). Giggs was almost always there for key qualifers. I think the disappointment for me is the recent years where his return was often mooted (I think Speed was very keen for Giggs influence to rub off on the younger squad today) but then immediately stamped out by his foster dad at OT. Maybe the loss to Man City will cause a reappraisal of the situation by both but I doubt it somehow. I was in deepest darkest kenya in 2000 and a local asked me where I was from. i replied 'wales' thinking he wouldn't have a clue where that was. He replied 'Ah the famous Man Utd and Wales footballer Gee Jiggs'.
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 13:02:50 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 13:02:50 GMT
Llanerch well he could of 'done it' a lot more times if he'd botherd turning up more!ok il rephrase it not to offend in my opinion and a forum is for peoples opinion's!Giggs lack of caps for wales is disgracefull for the time he was involved with wales!
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 15:11:57 GMT
Post by Tim P on May 16, 2012 15:11:57 GMT
Just to be clear:
My opinion of him as a player is not based on my reservations regarding his international career.
In all seriousness, can someone please tell me why Ferguson never built a side around him the way he did with, say, Ronaldo?
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 15:39:17 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 15:39:17 GMT
Good point!Think he's a shoe in to be the boss at united after fergie!
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 15:44:12 GMT
Post by flynnfan on May 16, 2012 15:44:12 GMT
I've been a Wales fan since 1985. Since that times the following players have had a bigger impact on Welsh international football than Giggs:
Ian Rush, Mark Hughes, Dean Saunders, Kevin Ratcliffe, Neville Southall, Craig Bellamy, John Hartson, Gary Speed and (already) Gareth Bale.
With the possible exception of Bale, none of them were as talented as Giggs.
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 16:05:54 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 16:05:54 GMT
Trendy, ferguson built 4 championship teams around giggs. Before giggs utd were like liverpool now.
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 16:40:30 GMT
Post by Tim P on May 16, 2012 16:40:30 GMT
Trendy, ferguson built 4 championship teams around giggs. Before giggs utd were like liverpool now. Which seasons are you referring to?
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 16:47:51 GMT
Post by stu on May 16, 2012 16:47:51 GMT
I'm sure plenty of Welsh managers wanted to build a team around Giggs but Fergie never built a team around him. He just so happened to be one of their players who stuck around.
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 17:37:08 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 17:37:08 GMT
He just stuck around and won 12 titles!
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 19:03:20 GMT
Post by stu on May 16, 2012 19:03:20 GMT
And they probably would have won those titles if he had buggered off and they replaced him.
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Giggs
May 16, 2012 22:32:59 GMT
Post by Tim P on May 16, 2012 22:32:59 GMT
He just stuck around and won 12 titles! Which seasons were you referring to when you said Ferguson built 4 championship winning sides around him? Honestly want to know.
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Giggs
May 17, 2012 8:44:08 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 8:44:08 GMT
He just stuck around and won 12 titles! Which seasons were you referring to when you said Ferguson built 4 championship winning sides around him? Honestly want to know. I am not going to write a dissertation on every utd season in the EPL. trendy, giggs was the difference between Utd being perennial losers, in the Liverpool shadow and finally eclipsing them. When he first broke through he was so good (remember, the new George Best) that the ceiling at Utd was suddenly raised to new possibilities. He was hugely influential in the first Utd title in 25 years in 1993/94, and has been so in every winning season since (in different ways). Why do you think every time he mentions taking a role with Wales Ferguson dismisses it even now? His influence at Utd has been central to their dominance.
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