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Post by pendragon on Jan 21, 2019 13:16:11 GMT
According to Channel 4, Brexit has made Scottish independence 69% more likely, a united Ireland 60% more likely and an independent Wales 36% more likely Thing is, imo it doesn't have to be like this. Wales is quite unique in many ways. We provide, I think, its something like 60% of energy , like electricity of 'UK' (and have a guess what lots of modes of transport will be running off soon), we provide huge amounts of water, We provide huge amounts of meat and veg (we are famous for the sheep jokes for a reason, not that reason lol). According to Terry Matthews, Pembrokeshire is potentially leading area for Internet and Tech possibilities, I think due to some cable that comes up from under sea. Countries with similar or smaller populations to us are proving that small countries can be and indeed are being very successful, so when you think of where we are placed on the map in Europe, we are very well placed indeed. We are close to all countries in 'UK' and Ireland and mainland Europe. This is with out fat that Milford Haven waterway is one of best natural ports anywhere. We have a lot to offer and a lot to gain imo. I appreciate that we need a lot of investment in infrastructure etc, but a lot of people overlook the fact that we have a very small population, which makes up less than 5% of the whole UK population. With sensible taxing policies, it calls into question the tired worn-out argument, that we "cannot survive" on our own.
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Post by superunknown on Jan 21, 2019 13:36:57 GMT
Thing is, imo it doesn't have to be like this. Wales is quite unique in many ways. We provide, I think, its something like 60% of energy , like electricity of 'UK' (and have a guess what lots of modes of transport will be running off soon), we provide huge amounts of water, We provide huge amounts of meat and veg (we are famous for the sheep jokes for a reason, not that reason lol). According to Terry Matthews, Pembrokeshire is potentially leading area for Internet and Tech possibilities, I think due to some cable that comes up from under sea. Countries with similar or smaller populations to us are proving that small countries can be and indeed are being very successful, so when you think of where we are placed on the map in Europe, we are very well placed indeed. We are close to all countries in 'UK' and Ireland and mainland Europe. This is with out fat that Milford Haven waterway is one of best natural ports anywhere. We have a lot to offer and a lot to gain imo. I appreciate that we need a lot of investment in infrastructure etc, but a lot of people overlook the fact that we have a very small population, which makes up less than 5% of the whole UK population. With sensible taxing policies, it calls into question the tired worn-out argument, that we "cannot survive" on our own. Agreed. Montenegro have a population of around 650,000 and gained their independence in 2006.
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Post by biwmares on Jan 21, 2019 20:25:57 GMT
Independence would be good certainly not against it. Its shocking that Plaid have not made any progress since the 1987 general election when the SNP also had the same number of MP's 3 in total. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_United_Kingdom_general_electionBut I have few reservations on independence. Am I the only one who has reservations on the quality of some of these so called AM's, from what I have seen some are only fit to serve on Parish Councils & that's being kind (Like our MP's). What criteria are these AM's selected on? The funding should be shared fairly for the whole of Wales, unlike what happens now. I know the South has more of the population. These funding issues still happen today in Wales. www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/blunder-made-st-davids-hospice-2849770
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Post by bracklablue72 on Jan 21, 2019 21:06:25 GMT
Independence would be good certainly not against it. Its shocking that Plaid have not made any progress since the 1987 general election when the SNP also had the same number of MP's 3 in total. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_United_Kingdom_general_electionBut I have few reservations on independence. Am I the only one who has reservations on the quality of some of these so called AM's, from what I have seen some are only fit to serve on Parish Councils & that's being kind (Like our MP's). What criteria are these AM's selected on? The funding should be shared fairly for the whole of Wales, unlike what happens now. I know the South has more of the population. [ Parliament has more power than the Assembly so most budding Welsh politicians still covet Westminster over Cardiff given that politicians by nature crave the greater public exposure that London offers...if we gained Indy then it may be fair to assume that the best quality politicians would serve in the assembly
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Post by robin1864 on May 12, 2019 21:56:10 GMT
Don’t know if anyone else gets this but when I say I support Welsh Independence people seem to automatically assume you want to go to war with England. The idea of a free trade union between 2 independent countries who value each other’s custom seems lost on them. Enter the mindset of the Anglo-Saxon male, one of the most destructive creatures Earth has ever known; violence is the lingua franca - from conquering the world to mindless brawling in the streets on a weekend. Anyways, this independence lark has picked up quite a bit of steam in the past few weeks. With the brain drain a genuine issue, I still think Plaid should throw everything into a UKIP-style campaign based on irrational hate and fear rather than hope and opportunity, it would appeal massively to those who voted for Brexit and they could be unwittingly duped into helping Wales re-join the EU as an independent nation.
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Post by CrackityJones on May 12, 2019 22:56:16 GMT
Anyone else think robin wotsit and chislenko are the same person?
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Post by robin1864 on May 12, 2019 23:07:24 GMT
Anyone else think robin wotsit and chislenko are the same person? I think a few people have alter-egos on this site. For all the registered posters, there's probably only about 5 of us in reality.
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Post by CrackityJones on May 13, 2019 7:24:50 GMT
Anyone else think robin wotsit and chislenko are the same person? I think a few people have alter-egos on this site. For all the registered posters, there's probably only about 5 of us in reality. The same five that went to Georgia in the 90s?
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Post by chislenko on May 13, 2019 12:05:23 GMT
Anyone else think robin wotsit and chislenko are the same person? I can assure you I am not Robin Wotsit. Only ever had two user names, Yashin on the old board which this board said was taken and wouldn't let me use (global board thing?) so I picked another member of the 66 USSR squad, the left winger Igor Chislenko. This should tell you that even as a small boy I was supporting an alternative team at said world cup than the rest of Britain!!
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Post by CrackityJones on May 13, 2019 12:36:47 GMT
I stand corrected!
Only messing about anyway but in all seriousness the inaugural independence march was a big success. It will be interesting to see how things develop from here.
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Post by welshiron on May 13, 2019 12:43:43 GMT
Was a massive success and really glad I went.
It was nice that it was all pro Welsh as opposed to anti English.
Moving forward they need to engage more non Welsh speakers like myself and even turn it into a positive.
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Post by cymroircarn on May 13, 2019 12:48:25 GMT
Was a massive success and really glad I went. It was nice that it was all pro Welsh as opposed to anti English. Moving forward they need to engage more non Welsh speakers like myself and even turn it into a positive. I was there too and agree with you, we won’t do this without pulling together. Welsh speaking or not, we are one people and need to stick together
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Post by iot on May 13, 2019 14:00:08 GMT
Was a massive success and really glad I went. It was nice that it was all pro Welsh as opposed to anti English. Moving forward they need to engage more non Welsh speakers like myself and even turn it into a positive. I was there too and agree with you, we won’t do this without pulling together. Welsh speaking or not, we are one people and need to stick together Yep, it was a big success. There were a couple of idiots who were heckling the labour for independence speaker and chanting Plaid, but they were quickly told to keep quiet. This is not supposed to be a party political movement, it's meant to engage all those who are supportive / open to the idea of supporting independence across the political divide.
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Post by chislenko on May 13, 2019 22:14:48 GMT
I stand corrected! Only messing about anyway but in all seriousness the inaugural independence march was a big success. It will be interesting to see how things develop from here. No offence taken mate, the one thing I will never apologise for is being passionate about being Welsh and the love for my country, hopefully a sentiment shared by many on here.
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Post by robin1864 on May 12, 2020 12:39:38 GMT
Blimey, almost a year since the last post here and what a time to revisit it.
As we all know, the Welsh Government told Boris to f**k off a few days ago and joined Scotland & Northern Ireland in maintaining the lockdown, and the Western Mail/WalesOnline are being accused of "whipping up anti-English rhetoric"
Is this further step on the road towards further devolution or independence? What's everyone's thoughts on Neil McEvoy and his new "Welsh National Party"?
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Post by cymruramdcfc on May 12, 2020 12:53:44 GMT
Blimey, almost a year since the last post here and what a time to revisit it. As we all know, the Welsh Government told Boris to f**k off a few days ago and joined Scotland & Northern Ireland in maintaining the lockdown, and the Western Mail/WalesOnline are being accused of "whipping up anti-English rhetoric" Is this further step on the road towards further devolution or independence? What's everyone's thoughts on Neil McEvoy and his new "Welsh National Party"? what i hear is WNP and PC are at loggerheads. the two parties that both want independence cant agree... not good start imo.
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Post by robin1864 on May 12, 2020 13:00:50 GMT
Blimey, almost a year since the last post here and what a time to revisit it. As we all know, the Welsh Government told Boris to f**k off a few days ago and joined Scotland & Northern Ireland in maintaining the lockdown, and the Western Mail/WalesOnline are being accused of "whipping up anti-English rhetoric" Is this further step on the road towards further devolution or independence? What's everyone's thoughts on Neil McEvoy and his new "Welsh National Party"? what i hear is WNP and PC are at loggerheads. the two parties that both want independence cant agree... not good start imo. It's not ideal, but it could accelerate the conversation. I've no real opinion McEvoy tbh, but he's got a string of controversies and my perception of him is he's a bit of a Welsh Farage, putting himself across as a man of the people with his "bloke at the footy" image.
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Post by fiveattheback on May 12, 2020 14:11:27 GMT
what i hear is WNP and PC are at loggerheads. the two parties that both want independence cant agree... not good start imo. It's not ideal, but it could accelerate the conversation. I've no real opinion McEvoy tbh, but he's got a string of controversies and my perception of him is he's a bit of a Welsh Farage, putting himself across as a man of the people with his "bloke at the footy" image. I've done some work for McEvoy, he's very marmite. His "man of the people" shtick is a lot more sincere than Farage's mind, I bumped into him at the Liberty for Cardiff v Swansea this season The work he did for Plaid in Cardiff was fantastic, he almost beat Drakeford in Cardiff West in 2016, and he's now thrown it all away in petty squabbles
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Post by vaulksthrowfanclub on May 12, 2020 14:55:52 GMT
I think having an English language named pro-independence party such as the WNP is good. Too many people still (wrongly) brand Plaid and therefore by extension independence itself as only for Welsh speakers, which is frustrating. Plaid and WNP need to come to an agreement at least to topple Drakeford in his Cardiff seat, that’d be a massive scalp.
How Welsh Labour can ignore the real need for at least further devolution to start with after the constantly getting ignored by Johnson and Westminster is beyond me.
Hopefully the shambolic coverage of the WG’s coronavirus policies will kick Welsh Labour up the arse to devolve media. I think that’ll be the key to annibyniaeth.
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Post by cymruramdcfc on May 12, 2020 17:10:08 GMT
what i hear is WNP and PC are at loggerheads. the two parties that both want independence cant agree... not good start imo. It's not ideal, but it could accelerate the conversation. I've no real opinion McEvoy tbh, but he's got a string of controversies and my perception of him is he's a bit of a Welsh Farage, putting himself across as a man of the people with his "bloke at the footy" image. i think McEvoy has not helped himself by being in the face of all in the senedd and from labour to PC they brush him off. i hope his support grows but i dont know where they will come from im hoping its the labour voters that turned they back on labour , walked past PC to the conservatives in the last election, which speaks volumes of the where PC stands at the moment.
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Post by vaulksthrowfanclub on May 12, 2020 17:29:21 GMT
It's not ideal, but it could accelerate the conversation. I've no real opinion McEvoy tbh, but he's got a string of controversies and my perception of him is he's a bit of a Welsh Farage, putting himself across as a man of the people with his "bloke at the footy" image. i think McEvoy has not helped himself by being in the face of all in the senedd and from labour to PC they brush him off. i hope his support grows but i dont know where they will come from im hoping its the labour voters that turned they back on labour , walked past PC to the conservatives in the last election, which speaks volumes of the where PC stands at the moment. Yeah, it’s maddening how anyone could think that the Tories speak for Cymry, but somehow they do which is a problem. Saw a poll that suggested 40% of Welsh respondents responded ‘didn’t know’ about Drakeford. Utterly embarrassing. A devolved media will help PC no end, as currently they get ~zero coverage, as quite simply, PC’s policies don’t effect England so the English press (rightfully) don’t give a stuff what they do.
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Post by robin1864 on May 12, 2020 19:18:34 GMT
I think having an English language named pro-independence party such as the WNP is good. Too many people still (wrongly) brand Plaid and therefore by extension independence itself as only for Welsh speakers, which is frustrating. Plaid and WNP need to come to an agreement at least to topple Drakeford in his Cardiff seat, that’d be a massive scalp. How Welsh Labour can ignore the real need for at least further devolution to start with after the constantly getting ignored by Johnson and Westminster is beyond me. Hopefully the shambolic coverage of the WG’s coronavirus policies will kick Welsh Labour up the arse to devolve media. I think that’ll be the key to annibyniaeth. I've often said PC have been never been loud enough in their beliefs & often come across as a wishy-washy Cymraeg cult/pressure group rather than a serious party, and there's a lot of old Labour voters out there who resent the fact they've had to turn Tory because they couldn't abide by the Magic Granddad, and people who feel disenfranchised by the Welsh language and Westminster. An English-language based indy Party could be a good thing, but it from what little I can gather it just seems like McEvoy got booted from Plaid for being a bit of a loose cannon and now he's started his own one-man band which appears to be more about upsetting Plaid, rather than pushing the indy agenda. There's definitely lessons the Welsh movement can learn from the Brexit & Trump campaigns though, the politics of politeness and expansive vocabulary don't hold sway anymore, sadly. The "defiance" of Johnson's lockdown lifting has been an eye-opener for many in and outside of Wales, showing that the WG do indeed have a degree of power, but devolution needs to go much further; for instance, devolving the Police - as the four Welsh forces come under the Home Office, Patel could tell Welsh police to stop hassling English folk who wish to enter Wales, and legally speaking they'd have to back down.
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Post by iot on May 12, 2020 21:18:31 GMT
Adam Price is the most impressive orator and all-round politician in Wales by some distance - I thought he was incredible in the leaders debate during the GE. The more Plaid can get him in front of people, the more likely they are to have success. But there's two major stumbling blocks preventing that from happening. The first is a complete lack of Welsh media and political sphere, meaning that Wales consumes what England consumes and Wales generally thinks what England thinks. The second is the lack of resource and professionalism within Plaid - they have no major backers, a fairly small membership base and therefore lack the expertise and resource to get their message out + undertake research (polling and focus groups etc.) to understand which messages plays well with the public. It's far from being a level playing field and I can't see how that situation is going to change to be honest.
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Post by cymruramdcfc on May 13, 2020 6:39:04 GMT
i think McEvoy has not helped himself by being in the face of all in the senedd and from labour to PC they brush him off. i hope his support grows but i dont know where they will come from im hoping its the labour voters that turned they back on labour , walked past PC to the conservatives in the last election, which speaks volumes of the where PC stands at the moment. Yeah, it’s maddening how anyone could think that the Tories speak for Cymry, but somehow they do which is a problem. Saw a poll that suggested 40% of Welsh respondents responded ‘didn’t know’ about Drakeford. Utterly embarrassing. A devolved media will help PC no end, as currently they get ~zero coverage, as quite simply, PC’s policies don’t effect England so the English press (rightfully) don’t give a stuff what they do. PC have a lot of work to come from just preaching to the converted, and having Mary Lou McDonald on PC party convention can turn alot of people away. WNP have a limited reach and only in cardiff as what i can see. independence is a long way off but have to reach out to all citizen in wales.
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Post by cymruramdcfc on May 13, 2020 6:41:43 GMT
Adam Price is the most impressive orator and all-round politician in Wales by some distance - I thought he was incredible in the leaders debate during the GE. The more Plaid can get him in front of people, the more likely they are to have success. But there's two major stumbling blocks preventing that from happening. The first is a complete lack of Welsh media and political sphere, meaning that Wales consumes what England consumes and Wales generally thinks what England thinks. The second is the lack of resource and professionalism within Plaid - they have no major backers, a fairly small membership base and therefore lack the expertise and resource to get their message out + undertake research (polling and focus groups etc.) to understand which messages plays well with the public. It's far from being a level playing field and I can't see how that situation is going to change to be honest. Adam price came out of the election with high respect from many and is a good leader. i jnow friends in many countries eg england NI usa and over here was impressed by his tv and radio apperances
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Post by derynglas on May 13, 2020 11:12:28 GMT
Dont think we can draw too many conclusions about Plaids standing from the 2019 GE. It was basically a brexit election with other issues marginalised.
Plaid actually stood down in 4 seats to support Unite to Remain candidates. Quite a few traditional Plaid voters voted tactically for Labour just for this one time. Still held on to their 4 seats with a slight decrease in vote share overall.
PC always gets more votes in Welsh Parliament election anyway and seen as being more relevant there. 16 and 17 year olds will be voting next year in this which will be interesting. Adam Price is a very good leader and under him the party has a road map to an indy ref so im happy with their policies.Not sure what the WNP can bring to the table not formed an opinion on that hope they dont have a negative and confusing impact.
45% of Welsh Labour support independance as well so its important what happens there as its unlikely Plaid will win an overall majority but hopefully hold the balance of power at least. A few labour brexit people and peole who didnt like Corbyn went over to the tories last time but they arent the type who would have supported Plaid anyway.
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Post by conwy10 on May 13, 2020 22:22:38 GMT
Dont think we can draw too many conclusions about Plaids standing from the 2019 GE. It was basically a brexit election with other issues marginalised. Plaid actually stood down in 4 seats to support Unite to Remain candidates. Quite a few traditional Plaid voters voted tactically for Labour just for this one time. Still held on to their 4 seats with a slight decrease in vote share overall. PC always gets more votes in Welsh Parliament election anyway and seen as being more relevant there. 16 and 17 year olds will be voting next year in this which will be interesting. Adam Price is a very good leader and under him the party has a road map to an indy ref so im happy with their policies.Not sure what the WNP can bring to the table not formed an opinion on that hope they dont have a negative and confusing impact. 45% of Welsh Labour support independance as well so its important what happens there as its unlikely Plaid will win an overall majority but hopefully hold the balance of power at least. A few labour brexit people and peole who didnt like Corbyn went over to the tories last time but they arent the type who would have supported Plaid anyway. Tactical voting has gone on a lot longer than Brexit. I’m a strong Plaid, and independence, supporter but I’ve been voting Labour for the last few elections. Somehow we’ve become a Tory hotbed so my main priority is trying to help Labour take it, used to be the 3 parties in with a chance but now only the big 2. If Labour takes it I’ll return to Plaid. I think Scotland holds the key to Welsh Independence. It’ll force our hand to either go for independence or become West England.
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Post by allezlesrouges on May 16, 2020 12:51:57 GMT
Dont think we can draw too many conclusions about Plaids standing from the 2019 GE. It was basically a brexit election with other issues marginalised. Plaid actually stood down in 4 seats to support Unite to Remain candidates. Quite a few traditional Plaid voters voted tactically for Labour just for this one time. Still held on to their 4 seats with a slight decrease in vote share overall. PC always gets more votes in Welsh Parliament election anyway and seen as being more relevant there. 16 and 17 year olds will be voting next year in this which will be interesting. Adam Price is a very good leader and under him the party has a road map to an indy ref so im happy with their policies.Not sure what the WNP can bring to the table not formed an opinion on that hope they dont have a negative and confusing impact. 45% of Welsh Labour support independance as well so its important what happens there as its unlikely Plaid will win an overall majority but hopefully hold the balance of power at least. A few labour brexit people and peole who didnt like Corbyn went over to the tories last time but they arent the type who would have supported Plaid anyway. Tactical voting has gone on a lot longer than Brexit. I’m a strong Plaid, and independence, supporter but I’ve been voting Labour for the last few elections. Somehow we’ve become a Tory hotbed so my main priority is trying to help Labour take it, used to be the 3 parties in with a chance but now only the big 2. If Labour takes it I’ll return to Plaid. I think Scotland holds the key to Welsh Independence. It’ll force our hand to either go for independence or become West England. I think tactical voting just doesn't work in a GE. What really changed my view on tactical voting is realising that even if Cymru, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Cornwall all voted for the same party in every constituency then the Conservatives would have still won the 2019 GE. England holds 80% of all the seats in Westminster - meaning the other nations in this "union" can't really change anything in a GE, what England wants England will get every single time. The only way to change this is to vote for a Welsh independence party - like Scotland have - as this has gained them a voice despite being a minority in the UK. Tactical voting just suggests that support for Plaid isn't growing and therefore others are discouraged from voting for Plaid as they think "Plaid will never win". If everyone who supported Plaid but tactically voted for Labour decided to vote for Plaid we'd see a swing in the % of votes and that would create momentum for Plaid. Which is why I always vote on principal of the party I believe in rather than trying to win the already rigged game tactically.
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Post by cymruramdcfc on May 17, 2020 5:45:30 GMT
Tactical voting has gone on a lot longer than Brexit. I’m a strong Plaid, and independence, supporter but I’ve been voting Labour for the last few elections. Somehow we’ve become a Tory hotbed so my main priority is trying to help Labour take it, used to be the 3 parties in with a chance but now only the big 2. If Labour takes it I’ll return to Plaid. I think Scotland holds the key to Welsh Independence. It’ll force our hand to either go for independence or become West England. I think tactical voting just doesn't work in a GE. What really changed my view on tactical voting is realising that even if Cymru, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Cornwall all voted for the same party in every constituency then the Conservatives would have still won the 2019 GE. England holds 80% of all the seats in Westminster - meaning the other nations in this "union" can't really change anything in a GE, what England wants England will get every single time. The only way to change this is to vote for a Welsh independence party - like Scotland have - as this has gained them a voice despite being a minority in the UK. Tactical voting just suggests that support for Plaid isn't growing and therefore others are discouraged from voting for Plaid as they think "Plaid will never win". If everyone who supported Plaid but tactically voted for Labour decided to vote for Plaid we'd see a swing in the % of votes and that would create momentum for Plaid. Which is why I always vote on principal of the party I believe in rather than trying to win the already rigged game tactically. a swing to independent parties may not bring quick independence but i would hope it would give wales a better demand on better home rule. Adam Price can win these votes but needs to be pushing hard at those labour voters who just vote labour cause they fathers have for decades. i know a relation who votes labour as he is working class and never worked regular as a choice.
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Post by caeboy on May 17, 2020 20:27:59 GMT
Adam Price is the most impressive orator and all-round politician in Wales by some distance - I thought he was incredible in the leaders debate during the GE. The more Plaid can get him in front of people, the more likely they are to have success. But there's two major stumbling blocks preventing that from happening. The first is a complete lack of Welsh media and political sphere, meaning that Wales consumes what England consumes and Wales generally thinks what England thinks. The second is the lack of resource and professionalism within Plaid - they have no major backers, a fairly small membership base and therefore lack the expertise and resource to get their message out + undertake research (polling and focus groups etc.) to understand which messages plays well with the public. It's far from being a level playing field and I can't see how that situation is going to change to be honest. On the whole I agree that Adam Price is a good leader and represents Plaid and Welsh politics well. The effort to engage a broader and more diverse demographic are to be applauded. However, the whole Sahar Al-Faifi affair does not bode well - from the lack of due diligence in appointing an Anti-Semitic, Islamist, who chairs the homophobic MEND organisation; to the clear message sent by accepting her hint of an apology which quickly pivoted to her own interest and victimhood; to the way in which the party flatly refused to answer any questions about her reinstatement. Al-Faifi has only one interest and it's not Wales, yet Adam Price is allowing the party to be hijacked and used as a platform to this. I hope Price will show that Plaid truly cares about minorities in Wales, and not just those minorities who have the largest number of potential voters. Completely agree with others here that media needs to be devolved, as emphasised by the way in which coverage of the WG’s coronavirus policies were hidden away on social media. If Wales had its own political parties, in the way that Northern Ireland does, then voters would need to take the time to explore policies, and not just vote for whoever their fathers voted for, or vote based on what they're fed from the English media.
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