The Manager Situation

[hooky]

Jun 15, 2024 9:39:19 GMT rushy said:

We , meaning the players, have drifted into a mentality of 'A bunch of mates' being together, with the manager instilling this thinking into the squad, this may be all well and good, but it's not enough if we are not performing to the best of our ability, which I truly believe we are not.
The players need a fresh outlook with someone with the experience, knowledge and ability to improve results, it's not something that can't be done.

That togetherness only works when you are doing alright. You feel less good if you are part of embarrassing performances and getting stress and criticism. Then you associate your team mates faces with the negative atmosphere surrounding the team and squad and you will lose that bunch of mates mentality and perhaps start pulling out of squads in the future. The reality is a squad of 22 is made up of very different personalities and they are not real long term mates and will probably never see each other when they quit football, but can be together when things are going well!

This is the unforgivable thing under Page. He should have been pushing to make us and himself better but chose stagnation and focussed too much on this mates and good vibe shit. Take Gunter and co instead of youngsters or others who would gain experience. Sorba Thomas - throw him out because he is upset at never getting a chance. If Sorba disrupted others then fine, but if he was just pissed at not getting picked - well guess what - that is what you want in an elite environment.

I and others called this mates mentality out ahead of the WC and that is why we are so against Page now - we saw it coming, but it was masked under Bale's magic, albeit less regular, moments. 

Look at Brennan - he is a disappointment for me but he looks far more effective for Spurs than us. Sure he plays with far better players there but he is typically playing against weaker teams when he plays for Wales. For us he looks like a spare part - he should not be 'that bad' and a good manager would get more out of him and others

[talyfan]

Jun 15, 2024 9:44:08 GMT surge said:

Jun 15, 2024 6:00:58 GMT talyfan said:

To be honest only ever listen to it because one of the few Welsh football podcasts. Coleman Has a Dream isn't bad either.

Feast of Football though I think they have to bite their tongue. Almost overly positive.

Podcast pel-droed is a good one.

I wonder if ex-players are aware that there is a chance Page stays, are aware that emotions are very raw at the moment, and realise our biggest strength is our home atmosphere and want to help protect it? Players tend to be a bit better at getting over difficult moments.

We failed against Armenia away which robbed us of a final against Turkey (in similar vein to Hungary a few years back under Giggs) and then lost against Poland due to mixture of offside calls, penalties and other.

Poland are above a handful of teams at the Euros according to latest FIFA stats. How much that was because they beat us, I don't know.

I always get the impression that our former players are close to the existing squad and Page still. It's a small world Welsh football. Only find the ones who are pretty frank are Gwennan Harries and Malcolm Allen mainly because they have no ties to the squad or staff I'd presume.

Don't think anyone likes speaking badly of their friends. I would do the same.

[iot]

Jun 15, 2024 10:00:06 GMT hooky said:

Jun 15, 2024 9:39:19 GMT rushy said:

We , meaning the players, have drifted into a mentality of 'A bunch of mates' being together, with the manager instilling this thinking into the squad, this may be all well and good, but it's not enough if we are not performing to the best of our ability, which I truly believe we are not.
The players need a fresh outlook with someone with the experience, knowledge and ability to improve results, it's not something that can't be done.

That togetherness only works when you are doing alright. You feel less good if you are part of embarrassing performances and getting stress and criticism. Then you associate your team mates faces with the negative atmosphere surrounding the team and squad and you will lose that bunch of mates mentality and perhaps start pulling out of squads in the future. The reality is a squad of 22 is made up of very different personalities and they are not real long term mates and will probably never see each other when they quit football, but can be together when things are going well!

This is the unforgivable thing under Page. He should have been pushing to make us and himself better but chose stagnation and focussed too much on this mates and good vibe shit. Take Gunter and co instead of youngsters or others who would gain experience. Sorba Thomas - throw him out because he is upset at never getting a chance. If Sorba disrupted others then fine, but if he was just pissed at not getting picked - well guess what - that is what you want in an elite environment.

I and others called this mates mentality out ahead of the WC and that is why we are so against Page now - we saw it coming, but it was masked under Bale's magic, albeit less regular, moments. 

Look at Brennan - he is a disappointment for me but he looks far more effective for Spurs than us. Sure he plays with far better players there but he is typically playing against weaker teams when he plays for Wales. For us he looks like a spare part - he should not be 'that bad' and a good manager would get more out of him and others

What a load of nonsense. Who is it that should have gone to the WC ahead of those that went? The biggest outcry was about Oli Cooper. What has he done since? Our lack of success has had nothing to do with an overly mates mentality, and having good squad chemistry off the pitch is vital, despite your attempt to play it down.

You’re also talking nonsense about Johnson. You don’t sound like you’ve watched him much for Spurs at all, where he’s received the exact same type of criticism.

[surge]

Pretty sure Brennan Johnson has gone from League One play-offs (reduced summer) to Championship play-offs (reduced summer) to transfer discussion/completion (reduced summer) to now.

This is really his first off-season where he's going to have a settled pre-season.

He's got plenty of development to do but some understanding needs to be shown.

[rushy]

Johnson for me moved from Forest a season too early, his game has not really progressed imo and he has work to do especially in front of goal.

[cadno]

Never rated Brennan in a welsh shirt, can’t see what all the hype is about, but he’s young enough to go on and do well.

Is our squad nowhere near good enough, or could a different manager / coaching staff get some good patterns of play, and game plans going?

Our depth in central midfield and goalkeeper is pretty bleak, and nobody really claiming the centre forward role. Let’s give Mullin, Evans, Harris and I Davies a chance now ffs.

If Rambo’s fit we’ve got to play him, it’s a big if but he’s still quality on his day.

[talyfan]

Jun 15, 2024 17:20:47 GMT cadno said:

Never rated Brennan in a welsh shirt, can’t see what all the hype is about, but he’s young enough to go on and do well.

Is our squad nowhere near good enough, or could a different manager / coaching staff get some good patterns of play, and game plans going?

Our depth in central midfield and goalkeeper is pretty bleak, and nobody really claiming the centre forward role. Let’s give Mullin, Evans, Harris and I Davies a chance now ffs.

If Rambo’s fit we’ve got to play him, it’s a big if but he’s still quality on his day.

Interesting you say it about centre forwards. Switzerland starting striker plays for Ludogrets in Bulgaria. Lot to consider in international football and sometimes level doesn't necessarily reflect their ability.

[aberbeeg]

Jun 15, 2024 17:20:47 GMT cadno said:

Never rated Brennan in a welsh shirt, can’t see what all the hype is about, but he’s young enough to go on and do well.

Is our squad nowhere near good enough, or could a different manager / coaching staff get some good patterns of play, and game plans going?

Our depth in central midfield and goalkeeper is pretty bleak, and nobody really claiming the centre forward role. Let’s give Mullin, Evans, Harris and I Davies a chance now ffs.

If Rambo’s fit we’ve got to play him, it’s a big if but he’s still quality on his day.

Let’s be honest BJ has done very little for us in a Welsh shirt. Looks very laid back/ lazy and his end product is very poor. 

The “mates” thing has probably gone too far and too deep with page and the squad. It has always felt like Page is too insecure to bring in someone with anything about him. Who actually challenges Page?  His Z list mates? 

Are the FAW even challenging him? Asking questions? 

[llyn]

Personally I don't doubt BJ's commitment. To me he should be out no 9. Pretty strange that we waste our £50 million forward on the wing so we can keep a Championship player up front. I know BJ doesn't play No.9 for Spurs

[winsumluzsum]

Johnson isn't a 9 and I doubt he ever will be. We just need to persevere with him wide right. I think it's just a matter of time before it clicks for him.

[cadno]

I agree with others, Johnson’s a winger, not a striker. Pisses me off how laid back he is and laughs when he misses a chance, might be his way of coping with disappointment but give me someone like Robson-Kanu over him any day of the week, not a 50m tag but will work his bollocks off and chase defenders/press/ make selfless runs. Thought Mark Harries did this in fairness to him, maybe if BJ showed a bit more fight and was more humble then we’d sympathise with him missing chances etc.

[Belle Vue]

Whatever happened to Michael Sheen and the sugar thing ?
Absolutely cringeworthy at best
Those days seem a long way off

[dai]

Jun 15, 2024 16:34:35 GMT rushy said:

Johnson for me moved from Forest a season too early, his game has not really progressed imo and he has work to do especially in front of goal.

I agree with this.

If I recall correctly, he wasn't even having the best of seasons at Forest before the move - got dropped to the bench towards the latter end. So maybe he needed another season to find his feet at the top level.

[iot]

Jun 15, 2024 18:10:31 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Johnson isn't a 9 and I doubt he ever will be. We just need to persevere with him wide right. I think it's just a matter of time before it clicks for him.

I thought he did well at 9 for us against Turkey, much better than his recent wide right performances. That's the route I'd go down now too

[iot]

Jun 15, 2024 19:41:07 GMT cadno said:

I agree with others, Johnson’s a winger, not a striker. Pisses me off how laid back he is and laughs when he misses a chance, might be his way of coping with disappointment but give me someone like Robson-Kanu over him any day of the week, not a 50m tag but will work his bollocks off and chase defenders/press/ make selfless runs. Thought Mark Harries did this in fairness to him, maybe if BJ showed a bit more fight and was more humble then we’d sympathise with him missing chances etc.

Trading in Johnson for HRK would be a ridiculous thing to do. HRK's industry was valuable when he had the world class quality of Bale and prime Rambo around him, but we don't have that anymore. Johnson has shown in glimpses that he does possess a lot of quality, we just need to find a way of getting it out of him more consistently

[dai]

Jun 15, 2024 21:15:04 GMT iot said:

Jun 15, 2024 19:41:07 GMT cadno said:

I agree with others, Johnson’s a winger, not a striker. Pisses me off how laid back he is and laughs when he misses a chance, might be his way of coping with disappointment but give me someone like Robson-Kanu over him any day of the week, not a 50m tag but will work his bollocks off and chase defenders/press/ make selfless runs. Thought Mark Harries did this in fairness to him, maybe if BJ showed a bit more fight and was more humble then we’d sympathise with him missing chances etc.

Trading in Johnson for HRK would be a ridiculous thing to do. HRK's industry was valuable when he had the world class quality of Bale and prime Rambo around him, but we don't have that anymore. Johnson has shown in glimpses that he does possess a lot of quality, we just need to find a way of getting it out of him more consistently

His work rate is sh1te though, you have to admit that.

[winsumluzsum]

Jun 15, 2024 21:12:17 GMT iot said:

Jun 15, 2024 18:10:31 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Johnson isn't a 9 and I doubt he ever will be. We just need to persevere with him wide right. I think it's just a matter of time before it clicks for him.

I thought he did well at 9 for us against Turkey, much better than his recent wide right performances. That's the route I'd go down now too

Has he ever played as a 9 in club football? If he hasn't that wouldn't necessarily preclude him from doing so for us but it's a big ask to get a player to perform to a high standard for the small number of international games.

[talyfan]

Jun 15, 2024 21:26:05 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Jun 15, 2024 21:12:17 GMT iot said:

I thought he did well at 9 for us against Turkey, much better than his recent wide right performances. That's the route I'd go down now too

Has he ever played as a 9 in club football? If he hasn't that wouldn't necessarily preclude him from doing so for us but it's a big ask to get a player to perform to a high standard for the small number of international games.

Played as a striker a fair bit for Forest in a front two usually alongside a striker with a similar profile to Moore.

[talyfan]

I'd love for us to be harder to beat. Looking at Greece and now they setup vs the Germans in a 442. Something I feel we could emulate with our personnel.


GK

Neco Rodon Mepham Davies

Wilson James Ampadu James

Brennan Kieffer

Soak up the pressure. Get Brennan in behind stretch the backline and Kieffer dropping off as a target.

[winsumluzsum]

Jun 15, 2024 22:37:39 GMT talyfan said:

I'd love for us to be harder to beat. Looking at Greece and now they setup vs the Germans in a 442. Something I feel we could emulate with our personnel.


GK

Neco Rodon Mepham Davies

Wilson James Ampadu James

Brennan Kieffer

Soak up the pressure. Get Brennan in behind stretch the backline and Kieffer dropping off as a target.

Sounds very 70s to me.

[rob]

Jun 15, 2024 14:47:07 GMT iot said:

Jun 15, 2024 10:00:06 GMT hooky said:

That togetherness only works when you are doing alright. You feel less good if you are part of embarrassing performances and getting stress and criticism. Then you associate your team mates faces with the negative atmosphere surrounding the team and squad and you will lose that bunch of mates mentality and perhaps start pulling out of squads in the future. The reality is a squad of 22 is made up of very different personalities and they are not real long term mates and will probably never see each other when they quit football, but can be together when things are going well!

This is the unforgivable thing under Page. He should have been pushing to make us and himself better but chose stagnation and focussed too much on this mates and good vibe shit. Take Gunter and co instead of youngsters or others who would gain experience. Sorba Thomas - throw him out because he is upset at never getting a chance. If Sorba disrupted others then fine, but if he was just pissed at not getting picked - well guess what - that is what you want in an elite environment.

I and others called this mates mentality out ahead of the WC and that is why we are so against Page now - we saw it coming, but it was masked under Bale's magic, albeit less regular, moments. 

Look at Brennan - he is a disappointment for me but he looks far more effective for Spurs than us. Sure he plays with far better players there but he is typically playing against weaker teams when he plays for Wales. For us he looks like a spare part - he should not be 'that bad' and a good manager would get more out of him and others

What a load of nonsense. Who is it that should have gone to the WC ahead of those that went? The biggest outcry was about Oli Cooper. What has he done since? Our lack of success has had nothing to do with an overly mates mentality, and having good squad chemistry off the pitch is vital, despite your attempt to play it down.

You’re also talking nonsense about Johnson. You don’t sound like you’ve watched him much for Spurs at all, where he’s received the exact same type of criticism.

Burns or Gethin Jones could have gone ahead of Gunter-the Nation league matches had shown he was not international level anymore.
In terms of Joniesta-Cooper,Matondo or Lawrence were better options in terms of quality or future development.
Joniesta went and then just retired from international football afterwards after his free holiday which made his selection even more of a joke.

[felinessex]

The debate about Johnson’s best position only serves to show that we have don’t have a manager with a vision as to what the team and tactics should look like.

One of our only Premier league strikers, he’s used as a peripheral winger, serving a hope and hit forward line.

We’ve just seen what happened to Scotland, playing known players in “preferred” positions. We need someone with a football brain that can make what we’ve got, into a team.

Please don’t say that’s Page, because it isn’t.

[reyrey]

Jun 15, 2024 14:47:07 GMT iot said:

Jun 15, 2024 10:00:06 GMT hooky said:

That togetherness only works when you are doing alright. You feel less good if you are part of embarrassing performances and getting stress and criticism. Then you associate your team mates faces with the negative atmosphere surrounding the team and squad and you will lose that bunch of mates mentality and perhaps start pulling out of squads in the future. The reality is a squad of 22 is made up of very different personalities and they are not real long term mates and will probably never see each other when they quit football, but can be together when things are going well!

This is the unforgivable thing under Page. He should have been pushing to make us and himself better but chose stagnation and focussed too much on this mates and good vibe shit. Take Gunter and co instead of youngsters or others who would gain experience. Sorba Thomas - throw him out because he is upset at never getting a chance. If Sorba disrupted others then fine, but if he was just pissed at not getting picked - well guess what - that is what you want in an elite environment.

I and others called this mates mentality out ahead of the WC and that is why we are so against Page now - we saw it coming, but it was masked under Bale's magic, albeit less regular, moments. 

Look at Brennan - he is a disappointment for me but he looks far more effective for Spurs than us. Sure he plays with far better players there but he is typically playing against weaker teams when he plays for Wales. For us he looks like a spare part - he should not be 'that bad' and a good manager would get more out of him and others

What a load of nonsense. Who is it that should have gone to the WC ahead of those that went? The biggest outcry was about Oli Cooper. What has he done since? Our lack of success has had nothing to do with an overly mates mentality, and having good squad chemistry off the pitch is vital, despite your attempt to play it down.

You’re also talking nonsense about Johnson. You don’t sound like you’ve watched him much for Spurs at all, where he’s received the exact same type of criticism.

Totally disagree 

[cadno]

Jun 15, 2024 21:15:04 GMT iot said:

Jun 15, 2024 19:41:07 GMT cadno said:

I agree with others, Johnson’s a winger, not a striker. Pisses me off how laid back he is and laughs when he misses a chance, might be his way of coping with disappointment but give me someone like Robson-Kanu over him any day of the week, not a 50m tag but will work his bollocks off and chase defenders/press/ make selfless runs. Thought Mark Harries did this in fairness to him, maybe if BJ showed a bit more fight and was more humble then we’d sympathise with him missing chances etc.

Trading in Johnson for HRK would be a ridiculous thing to do. HRK's industry was valuable when he had the world class quality of Bale and prime Rambo around him, but we don't have that anymore. Johnson has shown in glimpses that he does possess a lot of quality, we just need to find a way of getting it out of him more consistently

Give me a selfless player like Church or HrK over him any day of the week at the moment. He might have a bit of talent, but he hasn’t shown it yet. Gets away with murder because of the club he plays for

[iot]

Jun 16, 2024 0:14:15 GMT rob said:

Jun 15, 2024 14:47:07 GMT iot said:

What a load of nonsense. Who is it that should have gone to the WC ahead of those that went? The biggest outcry was about Oli Cooper. What has he done since? Our lack of success has had nothing to do with an overly mates mentality, and having good squad chemistry off the pitch is vital, despite your attempt to play it down.

You’re also talking nonsense about Johnson. You don’t sound like you’ve watched him much for Spurs at all, where he’s received the exact same type of criticism.

Burns or Gethin Jones could have gone ahead of Gunter-the Nation league matches had shown he was not international level anymore.
In terms of Joniesta-Cooper,Matondo or Lawrence were better options in terms of quality or future development.
Joniesta went and then just retired from international football afterwards after his free holiday which made his selection even more of a joke.

The original poster spoke about how we should have taken other players to give them experience and help with their development. I can’t see how that’s relevant for the profile of players you’ve suggested, all of whom apart from Jones had played before/since. Selecting those players would have made no difference to our achievement at the World Cup (where we used about 16 players in total) or our longer term success. It’s such a weak argument.

[iot]

Jun 16, 2024 5:42:01 GMT reyrey said:

Jun 15, 2024 14:47:07 GMT iot said:

What a load of nonsense. Who is it that should have gone to the WC ahead of those that went? The biggest outcry was about Oli Cooper. What has he done since? Our lack of success has had nothing to do with an overly mates mentality, and having good squad chemistry off the pitch is vital, despite your attempt to play it down.

You’re also talking nonsense about Johnson. You don’t sound like you’ve watched him much for Spurs at all, where he’s received the exact same type of criticism.

Totally disagree 

About what? Who are these players that should have been selected for the WC that would have improved our chances at the tournament or our progress since? It's just one of these lazy arguments that sound good at face value and are useful to have a pop at the manager - ah the clown just selected his mates in Gunter and Williams ha ha instead of giving the chance to those who deserved it - but then it completely falls down when you think about who the alternative options were at the time. As I say, all the noise was around Oli Cooper. 

[iot]

Jun 16, 2024 6:31:06 GMT cadno said:

Jun 15, 2024 21:15:04 GMT iot said:

Trading in Johnson for HRK would be a ridiculous thing to do. HRK's industry was valuable when he had the world class quality of Bale and prime Rambo around him, but we don't have that anymore. Johnson has shown in glimpses that he does possess a lot of quality, we just need to find a way of getting it out of him more consistently

Give me a selfless player like Church or HrK over him any day of the week at the moment. He might have a bit of talent, but he hasn’t shown it yet. Gets away with murder because of the club he plays for

You're completely missing the point. Those attributes - selflessness, workrate, industry - all only take you so far. Somewhere within the team you need enough quality to complement it so that there's a good overall dynamic for the team to be successful. The Euro 16 side had a perfect blend of industry and quality thanks to Bale and Ramsey's brilliance. There's a massive drop off in quality in this squad now. 

Mark Harris can basically offer us what HRK did, but we would no longer have world class players around him to make up for the lack of quality and goals he would offer. We can't discard players like Johnson - we'll only get success if they're successful with us, so we need to just continue working on it and find a way of getting more out of him.

[rob]

Jun 16, 2024 7:26:38 GMT iot said:

Jun 16, 2024 0:14:15 GMT rob said:

Burns or Gethin Jones could have gone ahead of Gunter-the Nation league matches had shown he was not international level anymore.
In terms of Joniesta-Cooper,Matondo or Lawrence were better options in terms of quality or future development.
Joniesta went and then just retired from international football afterwards after his free holiday which made his selection even more of a joke.

The original poster spoke about how we should have taken other players to give them experience and help with their development. I can’t see how that’s relevant for the profile of players you’ve suggested, all of whom apart from Jones had played before/since. Selecting those players would have made no difference to our achievement at the World Cup (where we used about 16 players in total) or our longer term success. It’s such a weak argument.

It would quite possibly have stopped Gethin Jones defecting to Australia if chosen and Burns would have been a reasonable sub option.Connir Roberts has been poor mostly last 2 years and has played regardless.Very negative player as with his little Wales comment.

[jackanapes]

The debate about Johnson is a classic case of fans taking their frustrations out on a player. The kid has pace and talent and we’re not seeing this in a Wales shirt. Both player and manager are responsible for this, but I blame the manager more. First, we hardly ever set up to get the best out of him, when he receives the ball it’s often too late and the space he needs has closed. This is almost entirely due to the poor game plan. We see more from Daniel James simply because of his demon work ethic. Under a good coach these two would destroy teams. The second aspect is Johnson’s faults. He certainly doesn’t work as hard as James despite having more ability. One part of this could arguably be down to a lack of belief in the system and the role he’s given. He’s not been given a platform to display his talents. Another element is arguably poor management - a player with his ability needs a manager who will demand he works hard. If he really wants to kick on he needs to take a leaf out of Dan James’ book. Even look at Bale pre2016.

Page has had his chance. He’s pulled off a few good performances and results, but we’ve also had several shockers and the same problems keep cropping up. This squad needs change, the fans need change and even Page needs change. This squad has reached the end of the road under this manager.

[jackanapes]

Jun 16, 2024 9:37:22 GMT rob said:

Jun 16, 2024 7:26:38 GMT iot said:

The original poster spoke about how we should have taken other players to give them experience and help with their development. I can’t see how that’s relevant for the profile of players you’ve suggested, all of whom apart from Jones had played before/since. Selecting those players would have made no difference to our achievement at the World Cup (where we used about 16 players in total) or our longer term success. It’s such a weak argument.

It would quite possibly have stopped Gethin Jones defecting to Australia if chosen and Burns would have been a reasonable sub option.Connir Roberts has been poor mostly last 2 years and has played regardless.Very negative player as with his little Wales comment.

Connor Roberts has been solid if not spectacular for the last two years. He doesn’t have too many problems at club level - he’s an excellent wing back, full of energy and able to pop up with the occasional goal and assist. Who’s better than him in his position? The little Wales thing is cheap - I’d say this comes directly from the manager and it’s a problem amongst pretty much all players of Page’s generation. Instilling a positive mentality is something that’s badly needed. You can’t imagine small countries like Croatia and Uruguay coming out with stuff like this. I’d almost go as far as saying that any coach hinting at this needs to be sacked. We all know our history and limitations, the job is to overcome them and write ourselves a new future.