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Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 16, 2024 10:49:19 GMT
I agree. It smacks of making excuses. It shows a lack of emotional intelligence, because it's the sort of thing that gets people's backs up. People aren't stupid, the loss of Bale, Allen and (prime) Ramsey is obviously going to impact our chances, but there's a way of framing this reality that isn't defeatist and negative.
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Post by rob on Jun 16, 2024 12:00:48 GMT
It would quite possibly have stopped Gethin Jones defecting to Australia if chosen and Burns would have been a reasonable sub option.Connir Roberts has been poor mostly last 2 years and has played regardless.Very negative player as with his little Wales comment. Connor Roberts has been solid if not spectacular for the last two years. He doesn’t have too many problems at club level - he’s an excellent wing back, full of energy and able to pop up with the occasional goal and assist. Who’s better than him in his position? The little Wales thing is cheap - I’d say this comes directly from the manager and it’s a problem amongst pretty much all players of Page’s generation. Instilling a positive mentality is something that’s badly needed. You can’t imagine small countries like Croatia and Uruguay coming out with stuff like this. I’d almost go as far as saying that any coach hinting at this needs to be sacked. We all know our history and limitations, the job is to overcome them and write ourselves a new future. Do feel Connor Roberts is on a downward spiral with more bad than good performances including Qatar.There is a reason he only started 2 games for Leeds despite signing in January.Hopefully Beck can kick on this season with Neco RWB or De Silva who looks competent. |
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Post by cadno on Jun 16, 2024 13:09:43 GMT
Give me a selfless player like Church or HrK over him any day of the week at the moment. He might have a bit of talent, but he hasn’t shown it yet. Gets away with murder because of the club he plays for You're completely missing the point. Those attributes - selflessness, workrate, industry - all only take you so far. Somewhere within the team you need enough quality to complement it so that there's a good overall dynamic for the team to be successful. The Euro 16 side had a perfect blend of industry and quality thanks to Bale and Ramsey's brilliance. There's a massive drop off in quality in this squad now. Mark Harris can basically offer us what HRK did, but we would no longer have world class players around him to make up for the lack of quality and goals he would offer. We can't discard players like Johnson - we'll only get success if they're successful with us, so we need to just continue working on it and find a way of getting more out of him. Fair enough, all a bit shite innit |
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Post by garynysmon on Jun 16, 2024 13:50:54 GMT
This ‘the new generation of Wales fans are too entitled’ stuff needs reframing. I think its a good thing that there’s an expectation that we qualify for tournaments.
After USA 94 I spent my childhood, teenage years and my 20’s fully believing I’d never see us qualify for anything. Wales away games were our ‘World Cups’ and that was that.
But those are days I never want to revisit. The Euro Championships are 24 team tournaments, despite our population we should always be looking to reach the finals. If we don’t then something’s gone wrong imo.
We often say that Euro 2016 changed everything, and it did. I don’t think fan culture will ever go back to being as bad as it was. The same old boring chants, and obsessing over England.
But the flipside of that is that expectations have also risen. No point playing the ‘little old Wales’ card after we’ve had a taste of the big time. Pandora’s box has been opened.
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Post by erasedcitizen on Jun 16, 2024 13:53:46 GMT
This ‘the new generation of Wales fans are too entitled’ stuff needs reframing. I think its a good thing that there’s an expectation that we qualify for tournaments. After USA 94 I spent my childhood, teenage years and my 20’s fully believing I’d never see us qualify for anything. Wales away games were our ‘World Cups’ and that was that. But those are days I never want to revisit. The Euro Championships are 24 team tournaments, despite our population we should always be looking to reach the finals. If we don’t then something’s gone wrong imo. We often say that Euro 2016 changed everything, and it did. I don’t think fan culture will ever go back to being as bad as it was. The same old boring chants, and obsessing over England. But the flipside of that is that expectations have also risen. No point playing the ‘little old Wales’ card after we’ve had a taste of the big time. Pandora’s box has been opened. Great post. |
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Post by rushy on Jun 16, 2024 16:55:04 GMT
There should be high expectation from fans, we should not have to tolerate the embarrassing Connor Roberts comments from post WC, there has to be greater belief within the FAW, manager and players in what is possible, namely qualification of tournaments, anything after that is a bonus.
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Post by iot on Jun 16, 2024 17:02:30 GMT
This ‘the new generation of Wales fans are too entitled’ stuff needs reframing. I think its a good thing that there’s an expectation that we qualify for tournaments. After USA 94 I spent my childhood, teenage years and my 20’s fully believing I’d never see us qualify for anything. Wales away games were our ‘World Cups’ and that was that. But those are days I never want to revisit. The Euro Championships are 24 team tournaments, despite our population we should always be looking to reach the finals. If we don’t then something’s gone wrong imo. We often say that Euro 2016 changed everything, and it did. I don’t think fan culture will ever go back to being as bad as it was. The same old boring chants, and obsessing over England. But the flipside of that is that expectations have also risen. No point playing the ‘little old Wales’ card after we’ve had a taste of the big time. Pandora’s box has been opened. It works both ways. Yes it’s a good thing that there are higher expectations because it raises standards. I also never expected us to qualify as a kid, and that sort of gave the FAW and the coaching set up a pass where they could get away with running a shitshow. I’ve heard stories from Gabbidon about the lack of seriousness under Toshack where they’d treat a Wales away fixture as a stag-do, and some of the things you hear the likes of Deans Saunders did in that era are 10 times worse. When you hear those stories, some of those horrorshows in the 90s make a lot more sense. Equally, I do think there has been some entitlement creeping into the fanbase where a lot of people think we’re better than we are. Things haven’t gone horribly wrong over the last campaign, we’ve just come up slightly short against Croatia, Turkey and Poland. We ran them close, but didn’t quite make it this time. A sense of disappointment is completely understandable- I’m devastated to miss out particularly because of where this particular tournament is held, but the level of vitriol that’s come out does, to me, show the ugly side of success. When you look at how we actually did over the course of the whole campaign and playoffs, that level of vitriol can never be rationally justified in my mind and does speak to some of the entitlement that has crept in, as well as a failure to evaluate the quality of our squad respective to those we came up against |
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Post by surge on Jun 16, 2024 17:07:39 GMT
What was is Osian Roberts spoke about? That we used to be a nation that competed to qualify once in a generation but the aim was to ensure that was being done for every tournament going forward. Think he spoke about how qualifying for two out of three or four tournaments was a success.
I don't know why Connor Roberts is getting picked on. We all want to qualify, we're all desperate to do well and can recognise that we are a smaller nation and it's not guaranteed on every occasion, especially if there are key injuries or absences at critical times.
The aim as we grow (and tournament qualification becomes a little easier) surely should be qualification play-offs or better each time. The next step on our journey is probably becoming like Switzerland or Croatia who can make it to the tournament even if not having a vintage generation based on experience and know-how.
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Post by cadno on Jun 16, 2024 17:12:00 GMT
We’re not consistent enough. Slovenia are giving Denmark a game here, and look like a well drilled side. Albania looked well drilled and disciplined vs Italy. You can’t say that about Wales. We have weaknesses, goalkeepers, CM and up top, but we could be a lot harder to beat and give ourselves a better chance of competing and beating opposition.
I have no idea where our performance vs Croatia came from and what’s happened since then!
A few Welsh boys stepping into the Championship with Pompey next season. I wouldn’t mind seeing more of Regan Poole, bring Morrell back into the side, and perhaps see what Tom Lowery can do.
A back 3 of Poole Rodon Davies could be good, with Neco and Silva as full backs maybe.
Goalkeeper is a problem, maybe bring Beach into the squads to raise his profile and help push a loan move.
Up top, give Mullin, Will Evans, Harries, Isaak Davies a chance.
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Post by garynysmon on Jun 16, 2024 17:40:01 GMT
Equally, I do think there has been some entitlement creeping into the fanbase where a lot of people think we’re better than we are. Oh, absolutely. You can be disappointed or even angry at failing to qualify when you were second seeds in qualifying and also the backup of two home fixtures in the playoffs while also accepting that we're dreadful at overhyping our players, the vast majority of whom are already well into their 20's. We talk of some like they're the second coming when they'd struggle to get into most nations' under 21's. When I see the squad now I don't see a hell of a lot coming through if I'm honest. Certainly, when we're really lacking top end Premier League or 'elite league' players, which is what we desperately need. Brennan Johnson is the only player who saw serious first team action in a top 6 PL side last season and I think we can all agree there's still a lot of work to be done there. Of the other PL players, Ben Davies is solid and dependable enough but won't again trouble a first choice Spurs starting XI at any time Romero/Van de Ven are fit, and I think we'd all be happy enough to see Harry Wilson and Neco Willams plodding along but playing regularly at their mid/lower league PL clubs. The jury's out on if Broadhead/Burns will kick on and see much action for Ipswich in the PL next season, although neither are spring chickens, and a Championship move is probably realistic for Kieffer (although will be 32 by the start of the season of course). Of the goalkeepers I think I'd snap your hand off if you offered any of them a full season of League One/SPL football. That department's a total disaster. Colwill was the big hope at Euro 2020 but is 22 now and needs to kick on very soon if he's to reach anywhere near those heights. Elsewhere its largely a squad of Championship or League One players isn't it? But...... with the squad being what it is, it means it's more important than ever to get the management/coaching right to squeeze every last drop out of a rather limited player pool. No Gareth Bale's around now to save our skins against Belarus away. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 16, 2024 18:08:06 GMT
This ‘the new generation of Wales fans are too entitled’ stuff needs reframing. I think its a good thing that there’s an expectation that we qualify for tournaments. After USA 94 I spent my childhood, teenage years and my 20’s fully believing I’d never see us qualify for anything. Wales away games were our ‘World Cups’ and that was that. But those are days I never want to revisit. The Euro Championships are 24 team tournaments, despite our population we should always be looking to reach the finals. If we don’t then something’s gone wrong imo. We often say that Euro 2016 changed everything, and it did. I don’t think fan culture will ever go back to being as bad as it was. The same old boring chants, and obsessing over England. But the flipside of that is that expectations have also risen. No point playing the ‘little old Wales’ card after we’ve had a taste of the big time. Pandora’s box has been opened. It works both ways. Yes it’s a good thing that there are higher expectations because it raises standards. I also never expected us to qualify as a kid, and that sort of gave the FAW and the coaching set up a pass where they could get away with running a shitshow. I’ve heard stories from Gabbidon about the lack of seriousness under Toshack where they’d treat a Wales away fixture as a stag-do, and some of the things you hear the likes of Deans Saunders did in that era are 10 times worse. When you hear those stories, some of those horrorshows in the 90s make a lot more sense. Equally, I do think there has been some entitlement creeping into the fanbase where a lot of people think we’re better than we are. Things haven’t gone horribly wrong over the last campaign, we’ve just come up slightly short against Croatia, Turkey and Poland. We ran them close, but didn’t quite make it this time. A sense of disappointment is completely understandable- I’m devastated to miss out particularly because of where this particular tournament is held, but the level of vitriol that’s come out does, to me, show the ugly side of success. When you look at how we actually did over the course of the whole campaign and playoffs, that level of vitriol can never be rationally justified in my mind and does speak to some of the entitlement that has crept in, as well as a failure to evaluate the quality of our squad respective to those we came up against I mostly agree with you about the vitriol and sense of entitlement. The Croatia win was probably on a par with the Italy win as our best ever qualifying performance/ win combo. We fully deserved the 3 points at home to Turkey too, and were only denied them by some dreadful officiating. But all that is completely ignored. But you fail to mention the Armenia games. They were a better team than we recognised beforehand, but we should have got at least 3 points against them and yet probably deserved none. You could argue that with our performances against Croatia and Turkey Page made a rod for his own back, but the performance levels in those games showed our capabilities, so to fall so far short of the standards in those games was rightly seen as unacceptable. Page was outsmarted by Armenia's Ukrainian coach, who I can't imagine is a top level coach, otherwise he wouldn't be managing Armenia. Truth is we should have at least run Croatia and Turkey closer than we did. The fact we didn't was ultimately on Page's shoulders. |
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Post by rushy on Jun 16, 2024 18:28:12 GMT
Players have to be made to realise the importance of playing regularly at club level and even though Wales are limited in squad depth, the manager should be considering this in the team selection.
Some players expect to start despite not playing for their clubs, even though the fitness levels are not what they should be , maybe that's something to look at for a different manager.
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Post by jackanapes on Jun 16, 2024 18:32:12 GMT
A few posters have made reasonable points in defence of Page’s record in the last qualifiers. The real issue for me is that I don’t see any prospect of improvement or development. If he has another campaign it’ll be exactly the same. A couple of good performances, a couple of poor performances when we get out of jail, and one or two when the wheels really come off. I’m really concerned about possible relegation from the next Nations League and a very poor WC campaign, leading to a slide in the rankings and seeding and making future qualification much more difficult than it should be.
Can anybody make a case for him being the right man to take us forward? We’ve seen what he can and can’t do and it’s never going to change. Keeping faith with him because he’s on a long contract is the ultimate example of the sunk cost fallacy.
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Post by surge on Jun 16, 2024 19:48:03 GMT
A few posters have made reasonable points in defence of Page’s record in the last qualifiers. The real issue for me is that I don’t see any prospect of improvement or development. If he has another campaign it’ll be exactly the same. A couple of good performances, a couple of poor performances when we get out of jail, and one or two when the wheels really come off. I’m really concerned about possible relegation from the next Nations League and a very poor WC campaign, leading to a slide in the rankings and seeding and making future qualification much more difficult than it should be. Can anybody make a case for him being the right man to take us forward? We’ve seen what he can and can’t do and it’s never going to change. Keeping faith with him because he’s on a long contract is the ultimate example of the sunk cost fallacy. Shall I take a crack? I think we need to consider that Kieffer Moore is in the autumn of his career and we don't seem to have either a player like him or a player like HRK coming through, indeed the closest we have is probably Mark Harris (a more clinical Simon Church?). I remember our play in the games when Vokes/HRK left the scene and before Moore was found. We struggled past Slovakia and Azerbaijan and lost to Hungary away. We found Moore and gave best performances we saw under Giggs to draw with Croatia and beat Hungary, qualifying automatically by one point. I think Page answered the question of how to play without Moore much, much better than Giggs ever did. Harry Wilson scored best Welsh team goal of recent memory in 3-1 loss in Belgium and Brennan arguably put in his best Welsh performance against Turkey. Before Neco Williams' red card in pre-world cup friendly against France he was a) having a stormer in midfield and b) we were matching the French. I think these are two examples of Page being inventive (through necessity?) and getting it right. I think Page has grown as a manager (too slowly, imo) and gone from someone who didn't make subs until injury time to someone who was willing to bring on Brooks and take him off against Poland in attempt to win the game. Page clearly wanted to try 4-2-3-1 (I don't like this formation for us) in friendlies recently which suggests he knows where he wants to take the team next, which is more than most at the moment. Page appears to have good relationship with the players as per Croatia game. He's got more out of Brooks than most of Brooks' managers, brought through Broadhead and James, and has given every chance to youth in Matondo and Colwill who have featured in several friendlies even when they're not setting world alight at club level. I can also present a good list of why I wouldn't be unhappy to see him go. Heck, even in this positive list I stumbled into things I don't like, but am a bit tired of people saying he's the worst thing since unsliced bread. It's not that simple. There's a chance he's still our manager over next two years. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 16, 2024 20:06:21 GMT
A few posters have made reasonable points in defence of Page’s record in the last qualifiers. The real issue for me is that I don’t see any prospect of improvement or development. If he has another campaign it’ll be exactly the same. A couple of good performances, a couple of poor performances when we get out of jail, and one or two when the wheels really come off. I’m really concerned about possible relegation from the next Nations League and a very poor WC campaign, leading to a slide in the rankings and seeding and making future qualification much more difficult than it should be. Can anybody make a case for him being the right man to take us forward? We’ve seen what he can and can’t do and it’s never going to change. Keeping faith with him because he’s on a long contract is the ultimate example of the sunk cost fallacy. Shall I take a crack? I think we need to consider that Kieffer Moore is in the autumn of his career and we don't seem to have either a player like him or a player like HRK coming through, indeed the closest we have is probably Mark Harris (a more clinical Simon Church?). I remember our play in the games when Vokes/HRK left the scene and before Moore was found. We struggled past Slovakia and Azerbaijan and lost to Hungary away. We found Moore and gave best performances we saw under Giggs to draw with Croatia and beat Hungary, qualifying automatically by one point. I think Page answered the question of how to play without Moore much, much better than Giggs ever did. Harry Wilson scored best Welsh team goal of recent memory in 3-1 loss in Belgium and Brennan arguably put in his best Welsh performance against Turkey. Before Neco Williams' red card in pre-world cup friendly against France he was a) having a stormer in midfield and b) we were matching the French. I think these are two examples of Page being inventive (through necessity?) and getting it right. I think Page has grown as a manager (too slowly, imo) and gone from someone who didn't make subs until injury time to someone who was willing to bring on Brooks and take him off against Poland in attempt to win the game. Page clearly wanted to try 4-2-3-1 (I don't like this formation for us) in friendlies recently which suggests he knows where he wants to take the team next, which is more than most at the moment. Page appears to have good relationship with the players as per Croatia game. He's got more out of Brooks than most of Brooks' managers, brought through Broadhead and James, and has given every chance to youth in Matondo and Colwill who have featured in several friendlies even when they're not setting world alight at club level. I can also present a good list of why I wouldn't be unhappy to see him go. Heck, even in this positive list I stumbled into things I don't like, but am a bit tired of people saying he's the worst thing since unsliced bread. It's not that simple. There's a chance he's still our manager over next two years. Well argued, you've almost convinced me... At the end of the day I'm with jackanapes.. I just don't see things getting better, there's enough history now with Page to know how things are likely to pan out. However we should only replace him if we have better to replace him. With all the legitimate caveats about Osian I still think he has done enough to justify his appointment. |
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Post by surge on Jun 16, 2024 20:24:12 GMT
I suppose the one advantage the FAW have is that they interviewed Osian (and Bellamy) not too long ago so have some idea of what they wanted to do next.
Next two years are important and not without challenges (e.g. Goalie, starting striker, longer term impact of not qualifying) so best possible manager and backroom team should have the job.
I have said my piece, and probably several times at that, so will leave this thread now. Cheers all.
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Post by iot on Jun 16, 2024 21:57:32 GMT
A few posters have made reasonable points in defence of Page’s record in the last qualifiers. The real issue for me is that I don’t see any prospect of improvement or development. If he has another campaign it’ll be exactly the same. A couple of good performances, a couple of poor performances when we get out of jail, and one or two when the wheels really come off. I’m really concerned about possible relegation from the next Nations League and a very poor WC campaign, leading to a slide in the rankings and seeding and making future qualification much more difficult than it should be. Can anybody make a case for him being the right man to take us forward? We’ve seen what he can and can’t do and it’s never going to change. Keeping faith with him because he’s on a long contract is the ultimate example of the sunk cost fallacy. I'm in a similar place to surge on this. I'm at a point where I think we do need to move on (because of the breakdown with the fans more than anything) and I've said for a while we should make a change if a better option becomes available. But just to respond to your challenge... Firstly, just to provide a counterargument to your assertion that 'I don’t see any prospect of improvement or development', if you look at the results and performances before these friendlies we were clearly on an upward trajectory. After losing out in Turkey, we won 4 and drew 4 with the draws coming against Turkey (would have won with a competent ref), South Korea, Poland, and Armenia. The Armenia game was the only bad result and performance, and you inevitably get at least one of those in a run of 8 games. Secondly, let's not forget that Page is the only manager who ever has qualified us for a world cup. Coleman failed with a much better side. And no, it wasn't all down to Bale. Thirdly, the players want him to stay. Fourthly, there have been some good tactical displays under him (people will scoff at that, but we were tactically brilliant against Czechia, Turkey at the Euros, Croatia at home, and very good tactically in several other games too). So that's the case for him, but the case against him is probably a fair bit stronger. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 16, 2024 23:46:04 GMT
Watching Serbia tonight has made me think about how we utilise our back 3 system. They play a 3-4-1-2 with two out and out strikers, rather than the 3-4-2-1 we've been using where we play 2 wing forwards
Yes, we have a plethora of wing forwards whereas Serbia have a plethora of strikers, so it makes sense based on the squad. However, it's interesting from a tactical perspective. I noticed having two strikers helped Serbia's press, better enabled the long ball (they always had 2 strikers close together to work off each other), and they seemed to pose more of a threat from crosses with 2 men hitting the box plus other midfielders joining in
One of the detriments to our formation is that despite improving wing play, we're often only aiming for Moore who is outnumbered, or we struggle to breakdown the packed box. Serbia's system was focused on the midfielder linking with the wing back to deliver crosses, and keeping 2 men in the box to aim for. If we played a system like Serbia did the lineup would be something like;
Mepham-Rodon-Davies
Neco-Ampadu-JJ-Dasilva
Wilson
Brennan-Moore
Might be interesting, and might bring more out of Brennan if he was the little man in a partnership, and might give Moore more to aim for an make him less isolated
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Post by felinessex on Jun 17, 2024 0:41:16 GMT
About what? Who are these players that should have been selected for the WC that would have improved our chances at the tournament or our progress since? It's just one of these lazy arguments that sound good at face value and are useful to have a pop at the manager - ah the clown just selected his mates in Gunter and Williams ha ha instead of giving the chance to those who deserved it - but then it completely falls down when you think about who the alternative options were at the time. As I say, all the noise was around Oli Cooper. We are supporters, we wish the best for our team. We are not very highly paid employees of the FAW, nor tactical geniuses, expected to scout players, watch and assess the opposition, nor pick squads or teams, no matter how much we think otherwise. A manager with vision would have gone, erm picking the same old squad for the World Cup isn’t going to work, I can see that. I’m going to have to change things, if we’re going to challenge the others in our group. Who knows, the outcome may have been different ? Did that happen ? Or did Page and the brass button gang just go with same old, milk the pre-tournament publicity and end up further back, heading into the Euros ? Oops we failed again, nobody’s fault, we were always rubbish back in the day. Utter joke management. Not just from Page, but from the invisible blazers. Any manager in any industry will have targets to achieve. For Page, it should have been A) get out of the group in the world cup. And, assuming A) is achieved B) Qualify for the 2024 Euros. Failure to achieve either, without mitigation such as, fantastic performances, but unlucky results, amazing development of incoming players, or unquestionable backing and support from the fan-base = immediate tin-tack. A no coffee or biscuits meeting, the morning after the Poland game. Immediately after the world cup, in the real world. Maybe we would have been partying in Germany now, if that had happened ! Failure should bring sanction, sport is all about wanting to win. Accepting failure is a loser’s mentality. Don’t compete if you are happy to come second (or last) The manager’s job should always be a tough, well paid gig, with agreed outcomes and timescales. Are the player development, support structures and processes appropriate to achieve future success ? Who assesses, measures and reports on them ? It’s not just the manager who should be held accountable, but everyone in authority at the FAW. |
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Post by Belle Vue on Jun 17, 2024 6:45:13 GMT
Excellent post
Accountable persons for this mess
Noel Mooney
Steve Williams
Robert Page
Dave Adams
Gus Williams
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Post by njdragon on Jun 17, 2024 8:36:30 GMT
About what? Who are these players that should have been selected for the WC that would have improved our chances at the tournament or our progress since? It's just one of these lazy arguments that sound good at face value and are useful to have a pop at the manager - ah the clown just selected his mates in Gunter and Williams ha ha instead of giving the chance to those who deserved it - but then it completely falls down when you think about who the alternative options were at the time. As I say, all the noise was around Oli Cooper. We are supporters, we wish the best for our team. We are not very highly paid employees of the FAW, nor tactical geniuses, expected to scout players, watch and assess the opposition, nor pick squads or teams, no matter how much we think otherwise. haven't been on here long have you? |
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Post by cadno on Jun 17, 2024 15:16:25 GMT
About what? Who are these players that should have been selected for the WC that would have improved our chances at the tournament or our progress since? It's just one of these lazy arguments that sound good at face value and are useful to have a pop at the manager - ah the clown just selected his mates in Gunter and Williams ha ha instead of giving the chance to those who deserved it - but then it completely falls down when you think about who the alternative options were at the time. As I say, all the noise was around Oli Cooper. We are supporters, we wish the best for our team. We are not very highly paid employees of the FAW, nor tactical geniuses, expected to scout players, watch and assess the opposition, nor pick squads or teams, no matter how much we think otherwise. A manager with vision would have gone, erm picking the same old squad for the World Cup isn’t going to work, I can see that. I’m going to have to change things, if we’re going to challenge the others in our group. Who knows, the outcome may have been different ? Did that happen ? Or did Page and the brass button gang just go with same old, milk the pre-tournament publicity and end up further back, heading into the Euros ? Oops we failed again, nobody’s fault, we were always rubbish back in the day. Utter joke management. Not just from Page, but from the invisible blazers. Any manager in any industry will have targets to achieve. For Page, it should have been A) get out of the group in the world cup. And, assuming A) is achieved B) Qualify for the 2024 Euros. Failure to achieve either, without mitigation such as, fantastic performances, but unlucky results, amazing development of incoming players, or unquestionable backing and support from the fan-base = immediate tin-tack. A no coffee or biscuits meeting, the morning after the Poland game. Immediately after the world cup, in the real world. Maybe we would have been partying in Germany now, if that had happened ! Failure should bring sanction, sport is all about wanting to win. Accepting failure is a loser’s mentality. Don’t compete if you are happy to come second (or last) The manager’s job should always be a tough, well paid gig, with agreed outcomes and timescales. Are the player development, support structures and processes appropriate to achieve future success ? Who assesses, measures and reports on them ? It’s not just the manager who should be held accountable, but everyone in authority at the FAW. Spot on |
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Post by iot on Jun 17, 2024 15:54:54 GMT
About what? Who are these players that should have been selected for the WC that would have improved our chances at the tournament or our progress since? It's just one of these lazy arguments that sound good at face value and are useful to have a pop at the manager - ah the clown just selected his mates in Gunter and Williams ha ha instead of giving the chance to those who deserved it - but then it completely falls down when you think about who the alternative options were at the time. As I say, all the noise was around Oli Cooper. We are supporters, we wish the best for our team. We are not very highly paid employees of the FAW, nor tactical geniuses, expected to scout players, watch and assess the opposition, nor pick squads or teams, no matter how much we think otherwise. A manager with vision would have gone, erm picking the same old squad for the World Cup isn’t going to work, I can see that. I’m going to have to change things, if we’re going to challenge the others in our group. Who knows, the outcome may have been different ? Did that happen ? Or did Page and the brass button gang just go with same old, milk the pre-tournament publicity and end up further back, heading into the Euros ? Oops we failed again, nobody’s fault, we were always rubbish back in the day. Utter joke management. Not just from Page, but from the invisible blazers. Any manager in any industry will have targets to achieve. For Page, it should have been A) get out of the group in the world cup. And, assuming A) is achieved B) Qualify for the 2024 Euros. Failure to achieve either, without mitigation such as, fantastic performances, but unlucky results, amazing development of incoming players, or unquestionable backing and support from the fan-base = immediate tin-tack. A no coffee or biscuits meeting, the morning after the Poland game. Immediately after the world cup, in the real world. Maybe we would have been partying in Germany now, if that had happened ! Failure should bring sanction, sport is all about wanting to win. Accepting failure is a loser’s mentality. Don’t compete if you are happy to come second (or last) The manager’s job should always be a tough, well paid gig, with agreed outcomes and timescales. Are the player development, support structures and processes appropriate to achieve future success ? Who assesses, measures and reports on them ? It’s not just the manager who should be held accountable, but everyone in authority at the FAW. 'A manager with vision would have gone, erm picking the same old squad for the World Cup isn’t going to work, I can see that.' That makes little sense. When we went to the world cup, we went there on the basis of a successful period where, you know, we qualified for the world cup. So I find it strange that you think Page should have thought at that point 'let's not pick the same old squad'. I know we're supporters, we're not highly paid professionals at the FAW, but Page is being criticised for being 'too matey' and his world cup selections is provided as the evidence for that. So it's entirely reasonable to ask - well who should he have selected instead? We all know who the eligible players are, so it's an entirely fair question for fans to respond to. And when you truthfully answer that question, it becomes apparent that it's a very weak criticism of Page. There's definitely a very valid criticism that can be made of Page's tactics at the world cup (and in several games since), but that wasn't the criticism being made. 'Any manager in any industry will have targets to achieve. For Page, it should have been A) get out of the group in the world cup. And, assuming A) is achieved B) Qualify for the 2024 Euros.' This is where the lopsided critique comes in, because you deliberately ignore any good and significant achievements. For Page, point A within his targets wouldn't have been to get out of a world cup group, it would have been to qualify for the world cup in the first place - which is what he achieved, something no other person has ever done. You can't just gloss over that because it doesn't suit your agenda. There will have been a performance target for the world cup itself, and Page will have failed that, but that will have been dwarfed by the achievement of making history in getting to the WC in the first place. |
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Post by aberbeeg on Jun 17, 2024 16:18:16 GMT
This ‘the new generation of Wales fans are too entitled’ stuff needs reframing. I think its a good thing that there’s an expectation that we qualify for tournaments. After USA 94 I spent my childhood, teenage years and my 20’s fully believing I’d never see us qualify for anything. Wales away games were our ‘World Cups’ and that was that. But those are days I never want to revisit. The Euro Championships are 24 team tournaments, despite our population we should always be looking to reach the finals. If we don’t then something’s gone wrong imo. We often say that Euro 2016 changed everything, and it did. I don’t think fan culture will ever go back to being as bad as it was. The same old boring chants, and obsessing over England. But the flipside of that is that expectations have also risen. No point playing the ‘little old Wales’ card after we’ve had a taste of the big time. Pandora’s box has been opened. Pity Page hasn’t taken this on board. Every chance he gets it’s always little ole Wales. Narrow minded 80s thinking manager unable to move with the times. |
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Post by aberbeeg on Jun 17, 2024 16:27:55 GMT
Failure should equal serious consequences.
Let’s not sleep walk back to pot 3 or pot 4 on regular basis.
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Post by hooky on Jun 17, 2024 18:22:31 GMT
This ‘the new generation of Wales fans are too entitled’ stuff needs reframing. I think its a good thing that there’s an expectation that we qualify for tournaments. After USA 94 I spent my childhood, teenage years and my 20’s fully believing I’d never see us qualify for anything. Wales away games were our ‘World Cups’ and that was that. But those are days I never want to revisit. The Euro Championships are 24 team tournaments, despite our population we should always be looking to reach the finals. If we don’t then something’s gone wrong imo. We often say that Euro 2016 changed everything, and it did. I don’t think fan culture will ever go back to being as bad as it was. The same old boring chants, and obsessing over England. But the flipside of that is that expectations have also risen. No point playing the ‘little old Wales’ card after we’ve had a taste of the big time. Pandora’s box has been opened. Pity Page hasn’t taken this on board. Every chance he gets it’s always little ole Wales. Narrow minded 80s thinking manager unable to move with the times. Well I'd rather be little old Slovakia (population of just over 5mn) or Croatia (population of just under 4mn) who manage to qualify for most tournaments (in case of Slovakia) or all tournaments (Croatia), no matter how poor or old their team, and usually do well in the case of Croatia You don't hear them saying we have lost Bale (Hamsik - their player of the year on 8 occasions) or are in transition as their excuse for failure I'd wager. They just get on with it. Transition has been the excuse throughout Page's reign. Giggs oversaw a massive transition and did well (albeit with Bale and Ramsey still available from time to time). Page has never overseen something that radical and I would be surprised if our current 'transition' is above the average you'd see across any European side. How different will his side be in the next Nations League or even WC match compared to what we saw at the tail end of our Euros campaign if he stays in charge. I think we all have the answer |
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Post by felinessex on Jun 17, 2024 18:25:14 GMT
We are supporters, we wish the best for our team. We are not very highly paid employees of the FAW, nor tactical geniuses, expected to scout players, watch and assess the opposition, nor pick squads or teams, no matter how much we think otherwise. A manager with vision would have gone, erm picking the same old squad for the World Cup isn’t going to work, I can see that. I’m going to have to change things, if we’re going to challenge the others in our group. Who knows, the outcome may have been different ? Did that happen ? Or did Page and the brass button gang just go with same old, milk the pre-tournament publicity and end up further back, heading into the Euros ? Oops we failed again, nobody’s fault, we were always rubbish back in the day. Utter joke management. Not just from Page, but from the invisible blazers. Any manager in any industry will have targets to achieve. For Page, it should have been A) get out of the group in the world cup. And, assuming A) is achieved B) Qualify for the 2024 Euros. Failure to achieve either, without mitigation such as, fantastic performances, but unlucky results, amazing development of incoming players, or unquestionable backing and support from the fan-base = immediate tin-tack. A no coffee or biscuits meeting, the morning after the Poland game. Immediately after the world cup, in the real world. Maybe we would have been partying in Germany now, if that had happened ! Failure should bring sanction, sport is all about wanting to win. Accepting failure is a loser’s mentality. Don’t compete if you are happy to come second (or last) The manager’s job should always be a tough, well paid gig, with agreed outcomes and timescales. Are the player development, support structures and processes appropriate to achieve future success ? Who assesses, measures and reports on them ? It’s not just the manager who should be held accountable, but everyone in authority at the FAW. 'A manager with vision would have gone, erm picking the same old squad for the World Cup isn’t going to work, I can see that.' That makes little sense. When we went to the world cup, we went there on the basis of a successful period where, you know, we qualified for the world cup. So I find it strange that you think Page should have thought at that point 'let's not pick the same old squad'. I know we're supporters, we're not highly paid professionals at the FAW, but Page is being criticised for being 'too matey' and his world cup selections is provided as the evidence for that. So it's entirely reasonable to ask - well who should he have selected instead? We all know who the eligible players are, so it's an entirely fair question for fans to respond to. And when you truthfully answer that question, it becomes apparent that it's a very weak criticism of Page. There's definitely a very valid criticism that can be made of Page's tactics at the world cup (and in several games since), but that wasn't the criticism being made. 'Any manager in any industry will have targets to achieve. For Page, it should have been A) get out of the group in the world cup. And, assuming A) is achieved B) Qualify for the 2024 Euros.' This is where the lopsided critique comes in, because you deliberately ignore any good and significant achievements. For Page, point A within his targets wouldn't have been to get out of a world cup group, it would have been to qualify for the world cup in the first place - which is what he achieved, something no other person has ever done. You can't just gloss over that because it doesn't suit your agenda. There will have been a performance target for the world cup itself, and Page will have failed that, but that will have been dwarfed by the achievement of making history in getting to the WC in the first place. It’s a forum, that’s my opinion. Feel free to criticise, as you have. Interestingly, whilst you challenge my opinion on Page’s world cup performance, you offer no comment on the Euro qualification outcome ? Do we therefore agree that this constitutes a failure to achieve what should have been the minimum objective for our manager ? 3 chances, win the group, 2nd in the group, or win 2 home play-off games ? |
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Post by iot on Jun 17, 2024 18:58:48 GMT
Pity Page hasn’t taken this on board. Every chance he gets it’s always little ole Wales. Narrow minded 80s thinking manager unable to move with the times. Well I'd rather be little old Slovakia (population of just over 5mn) or Croatia (population of just under 4mn) who manage to qualify for most tournaments (in case of Slovakia) or all tournaments (Croatia), no matter how poor or old their team, and usually do well in the case of Croatia You don't hear them saying we have lost Bale (Hamsik - their player of the year on 8 occasions) or are in transition as their excuse for failure I'd wager. They just get on with it. Transition has been the excuse throughout Page's reign. Giggs oversaw a massive transition and did well (albeit with Bale and Ramsey still available from time to time). Page has never overseen something that radical and I would be surprised if our current 'transition' is above the average you'd see across any European side. How different will his side be in the next Nations League or even WC match compared to what we saw at the tail end of our Euros campaign if he stays in charge. I think we all have the answer Since they were formed in the 90s, Slovakia have qualified for 4 tournaments, while we've qualified for 3. They've never gone as deep into a tournament as we have. They have a population that is 60% larger, so their record is similar, if not slightly worse than us, so your point doesn't really hold true. Anyone who say there's no causal relationship between population size and footballing success don't know what they're talking about. As with anything, there are exceptions to the rule - and Croatia and Uruguay are the best examples of that and definitely what we should be striving for, but they are the exceptions. |
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Post by iot on Jun 17, 2024 19:02:27 GMT
'A manager with vision would have gone, erm picking the same old squad for the World Cup isn’t going to work, I can see that.' That makes little sense. When we went to the world cup, we went there on the basis of a successful period where, you know, we qualified for the world cup. So I find it strange that you think Page should have thought at that point 'let's not pick the same old squad'. I know we're supporters, we're not highly paid professionals at the FAW, but Page is being criticised for being 'too matey' and his world cup selections is provided as the evidence for that. So it's entirely reasonable to ask - well who should he have selected instead? We all know who the eligible players are, so it's an entirely fair question for fans to respond to. And when you truthfully answer that question, it becomes apparent that it's a very weak criticism of Page. There's definitely a very valid criticism that can be made of Page's tactics at the world cup (and in several games since), but that wasn't the criticism being made. 'Any manager in any industry will have targets to achieve. For Page, it should have been A) get out of the group in the world cup. And, assuming A) is achieved B) Qualify for the 2024 Euros.' This is where the lopsided critique comes in, because you deliberately ignore any good and significant achievements. For Page, point A within his targets wouldn't have been to get out of a world cup group, it would have been to qualify for the world cup in the first place - which is what he achieved, something no other person has ever done. You can't just gloss over that because it doesn't suit your agenda. There will have been a performance target for the world cup itself, and Page will have failed that, but that will have been dwarfed by the achievement of making history in getting to the WC in the first place. It’s a forum, that’s my opinion. Feel free to criticise, as you have. Interestingly, whilst you challenge my opinion on Page’s world cup performance, you offer no comment on the Euro qualification outcome ? Do we therefore agree that this constitutes a failure to achieve what should have been the minimum objective for our manager ? 3 chances, win the group, 2nd in the group, or win 2 home play-off games ? I challenged you on the bits that I felt weren't a fair reflection, and didn't challenge you on the bits which I agree with - yeah, obviously failing to qualify for the Euros is a failure. Whether that should be the 'minimum objective' and thus a sacking offence in itself, I'm not sure. It 's higher than the standards Osian Roberts has suggested we should be aiming for (qualifying for 2 of every 3 tournaments), and his word seems to be gospel with most fans at the moment. |
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Post by aberbeeg on Jun 17, 2024 20:18:12 GMT
Page HAS failed so should be sacked. Or are we happy to sleep walk back to the bad old days ?
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