|
|
Post by jbt95 on Jun 17, 2024 21:09:58 GMT
If Page is still in a job by July he will be in charge in September.
|
|
|
|
Post by fireboy0610 on Jun 17, 2024 21:19:10 GMT
If Page is still in a job by July he will be in charge in September. This ^ unfortunately 🙄 |
|
|
|
Post by felinessex on Jun 17, 2024 21:47:40 GMT
It’s a forum, that’s my opinion. Feel free to criticise, as you have. Interestingly, whilst you challenge my opinion on Page’s world cup performance, you offer no comment on the Euro qualification outcome ? Do we therefore agree that this constitutes a failure to achieve what should have been the minimum objective for our manager ? 3 chances, win the group, 2nd in the group, or win 2 home play-off games ? I challenged you on the bits that I felt weren't a fair reflection, and didn't challenge you on the bits which I agree with - yeah, obviously failing to qualify for the Euros is a failure. Whether that should be the 'minimum objective' and thus a sacking offence in itself, I'm not sure. It 's higher than the standards Osian Roberts has suggested we should be aiming for (qualifying for 2 of every 3 tournaments), and his word seems to be gospel with most fans at the moment. I tend to form my own opinion, regardless of Osian’s thoughts, or the input of ex-players. The point on which we both disagree, Page’s achievements and future, should have been addressed by the FAW. He certainly shouldn’t personally be hung out to dry. If he’s fulfilled the objectives set for him by the association, they should come out and publicly back him. Explaining clearly what those objectives were. If they believe he hasn’t. Where and how do they believe we go from here ? I don’t have any agenda on a personal level against Page. He seems a very decent guy, committed to Wales, who inherited the job in difficult circumstances, due to his previous boss’ alleged indiscretions and has tried his very best. I just believe that there comes a time that a new direction is required. This should also include a wider review of structures, rather than just the manager. For that reason alone, rather than any individual favouritism, I’d back Osian, or anyone else with the same wide-ranging skillset. As I said in my original post, I don’t believe it’s just about the manager. |
|
|
|
Post by felinessex on Jun 17, 2024 22:39:35 GMT
We are supporters, we wish the best for our team. We are not very highly paid employees of the FAW, nor tactical geniuses, expected to scout players, watch and assess the opposition, nor pick squads or teams, no matter how much we think otherwise. haven't been on here long have you? Not really, only been following Wales since the days of Dave Bowen and Mike Smith. The days when failure was weirdly accepted, even though we had superb players. Plucky Wales. It was tougher to qualify, with smaller final competition groups back in those days, I still haven’t got over Anfield against Ally’s Army. That’s why I hate the reference to past failures as some sort of excuse for our current performance. It was way tougher to qualify for either the World Cup or Euros back in the day. It’s harder to fail to qualify nowadays, so making Page a hero for World Cup qualification doesn’t cut it for me. |
|
|
|
Post by njdragon on Jun 18, 2024 5:38:39 GMT
haven't been on here long have you? Not really, only been following Wales since the days of Dave Bowen and Mike Smith. The days when failure was weirdly accepted, even though we had superb players. Plucky Wales. It was tougher to qualify, with smaller final competition groups back in those days, I still haven’t got over Anfield against Ally’s Army. That’s why I hate the reference to past failures as some sort of excuse for our current performance. It was way tougher to qualify for either the World Cup or Euros back in the day. It’s harder to fail to qualify nowadays, so making Page a hero for World Cup qualification doesn’t cut it for me. Same goes for cookie then I take it |
|
|
|
Post by pclaude on Jun 18, 2024 16:55:07 GMT
haven't been on here long have you? Not really, only been following Wales since the days of Dave Bowen and Mike Smith. The days when failure was weirdly accepted, even though we had superb players. Plucky Wales. It was tougher to qualify, with smaller final competition groups back in those days, I still haven’t got over Anfield against Ally’s Army. That’s why I hate the reference to past failures as some sort of excuse for our current performance. It was way tougher to qualify for either the World Cup or Euros back in the day. It’s harder to fail to qualify nowadays, so making Page a hero for World Cup qualification doesn’t cut it for me. That’s untrue. UEFA teams in 2022 wc was 13. Last time it was lower was 1978. Where there were 10 teams from 32 nations. In 2022 it was 13 from 55. Arguably one of the hardest qualifications ever was 2022 WC. Euros is different but Page hasn’t got us to a Euros |
|
|
|
Post by iot on Jun 18, 2024 18:18:58 GMT
Not really, only been following Wales since the days of Dave Bowen and Mike Smith. The days when failure was weirdly accepted, even though we had superb players. Plucky Wales. It was tougher to qualify, with smaller final competition groups back in those days, I still haven’t got over Anfield against Ally’s Army. That’s why I hate the reference to past failures as some sort of excuse for our current performance. It was way tougher to qualify for either the World Cup or Euros back in the day. It’s harder to fail to qualify nowadays, so making Page a hero for World Cup qualification doesn’t cut it for me. That’s untrue. UEFA teams in 2022 wc was 13. Last time it was lower was 1978. Where there were 10 teams from 32 nations. In 2022 it was 13 from 55. Arguably one of the hardest qualifications ever was 2022 WC. Euros is different but Page hasn’t got us to a Euros When people aren't prepared to acknowledge Page's achievement in taking us to the World Cup, or seek to downplay it, I think it just shows they don't have a balanced view on this. |
|
|
|
Post by rushy on Jun 18, 2024 20:35:13 GMT
I think it was the motivation of the players and their desire to play in a WC that got us qualified, the shameful performances in the competition in those three games was down to bad management, nothing else.
|
|
|
|
Post by quetzal on Jun 19, 2024 1:10:16 GMT
Looking at the standard of our group, the irony is that if we had qualified Page would have been given the boot after the group stage. Because of the money we would have made at the Euros. Now we’re bloody trapped with him because we can’t afford to pay him off. It’s infuriating!
|
|
|
|
Post by eppingblue1 on Jun 19, 2024 5:02:14 GMT
Looking at the standard of our group, the irony is that if we had qualified Page would have been given the boot after the group stage. Because of the money we would have made at the Euros. Now we’re bloody trapped with him because we can’t afford to pay him off. It’s infuriating! So your saying that had the penalty kicks against Poland gone in our favour, Page would / should of been sacked if we'd gone onto loose to The Netherlands, Austria and France. Your deluded in your expectations. The Premier league first day fixtures were out yesterday. I looked through it and concluded we don't currently have a single nailed on starter in top flight football. In my years the cupboard containing quality footballers has never been so bare. While on here we're getting excited about a teenager joining Peterborough, our past and future rivals are cheering their Real Madrid based teenager scoring a worldie in Germany. We're in for a few lean years and would be whoever the manager is. |
|
|
|
Post by iot on Jun 19, 2024 6:50:17 GMT
Looking at the standard of our group, the irony is that if we had qualified Page would have been given the boot after the group stage. Because of the money we would have made at the Euros. Now we’re bloody trapped with him because we can’t afford to pay him off. It’s infuriating! So your saying that had the penalty kicks against Poland gone in our favour, Page would / should of been sacked if we'd gone onto loose to The Netherlands, Austria and France. Your deluded in your expectations. The Premier league first day fixtures were out yesterday. I looked through it and concluded we don't currently have a single nailed on starter in top flight football. In my years the cupboard containing quality footballers has never been so bare. While on here we're getting excited about a teenager joining Peterborough, our past and future rivals are cheering their Real Madrid based teenager scoring a worldie in Germany. We're in for a few lean years and would be whoever the manager is. Yeah, I think too many people aren’t willing to accept the level of quality in our squad currently and adjust their expectations accordingly. Whilst I accept what others have argued - that the second tier of English football has now kicked on so much that it’s probably the sixth or seventh best league in the world, making direct comparisons with previous generations more difficult - I still think this is the poorest individual quality we’ve had available to us in my lifetime. Whilst we still should expect to be competitive in the expanded Euros qualification format, I don’t think we have the quality for us to expect to qualify for every Euros (in this case ahead of one of Croatia, Turkey or Poland). Around 5 years ago when we had Bale/Rambo/Allen in their prime and the likes of Ampadu/Brooks/Woodburn breaking through, people would go on about how we’d go up another level again. But there was a complete failure to recognize that whilst these were good prospects you never know what level they will actually reach, and the players that we knew were world class would inevitably be in decline. Because we’ve been in an unprecedented period of success and are now starting to regress people will pin it all on Page and I don’t think he can stay on in that environment. I think the next manager coming in will struggle with the same issues, and only at that point will people take stock of the player quality available to us and revise their expectations. As I’ve said before, having certain expectations is a good thing because it demands high standards, however when the expectation are too high it becomes toxic when the team inevitably falls short. We need the right level of expectations - being realistic without being pessimistic. I think we’ll only get there after Page leaves, until then he’ll just be the scapegoat for everyone to pin their frustrations on - and that’s no good for anyone. |
|
|
|
Post by talyfan on Jun 19, 2024 7:41:58 GMT
It's interesting to compare 2016 to now. Almost 10 years ago and a lot can change. No doubting Bale, Davies, Ramsey and Allen's quality.
I'm just wondering the rest of the squad would be premier league mainstays like they were if they played today? The likes of Ashley Williams, James Chester, Neil Taylor.
You then start thinking about how much luck, fine margins and randomness comes into play. The likes of Wes Burns and Nathan Broadhead could suddenly become mainstays in the Prem and take to the level no problem after back to back promotions from League 1. But if Kieran McKenna hadn't taken charge of Ipswich would they still be there in League One? Or would they be in the Premier League still now?
Think that gets exacerbated for us given our small pool, we experience the volatility first hand. Whereas countries like England, Spain etc. have that constant churn. Not reliant on an individual coming good but the sheer volume they produce it's not something they need to worry about.
That should be the aim for us. Producing, identifying and increasing the player pool of Welshman playing professional football.
Identifying a manager that can squeeze every last drop out of the squad.
|
|
|
|
Post by aberbeeg on Jun 19, 2024 9:07:43 GMT
Looking at the standard of our group, the irony is that if we had qualified Page would have been given the boot after the group stage. Because of the money we would have made at the Euros. Now we’re bloody trapped with him because we can’t afford to pay him off. It’s infuriating! So your saying that had the penalty kicks against Poland gone in our favour, Page would / should have been sacked if we'd gone onto loose to The Netherlands, Austria and France. You’re deluded in your expectations. The Premier league first day fixtures were out yesterday. I looked through it and concluded we don't currently have a single nailed on starter in top flight football. In my years the cupboard containing quality footballers has never been so bare. While on here we're getting excited about a teenager joining Peterborough, our past and future rivals are cheering their Real Madrid based teenager scoring a worldie in Germany. We're in for a few lean years and would be whoever the manager is. Even more reason to get the BEST possible manager we can. A wily old fox would definitely get more from this group. How many times has Page been out thought tactics wise? |
|
|
|
Post by aberbeeg on Jun 19, 2024 9:09:28 GMT
So your saying that had the penalty kicks against Poland gone in our favour, Page would / should of been sacked if we'd gone onto loose to The Netherlands, Austria and France. Your deluded in your expectations. The Premier league first day fixtures were out yesterday. I looked through it and concluded we don't currently have a single nailed on starter in top flight football. In my years the cupboard containing quality footballers has never been so bare. While on here we're getting excited about a teenager joining Peterborough, our past and future rivals are cheering their Real Madrid based teenager scoring a worldie in Germany. We're in for a few lean years and would be whoever the manager is. Yeah, I think too many people aren’t willing to accept the level of quality in our squad currently and adjust their expectations accordingly. Whilst I accept what others have argued - that the second tier of English football has now kicked on so much that it’s probably the sixth or seventh best league in the world, making direct comparisons with previous generations more difficult - I still think this is the poorest individual quality we’ve had available to us in my lifetime. Whilst we still should expect to be competitive in the expanded Euros qualification format, I don’t think we have the quality for us to expect to qualify for every Euros (in this case ahead of one of Croatia, Turkey or Poland). Around 5 years ago when we had Bale/Rambo/Allen in their prime and the likes of Ampadu/Brooks/Woodburn breaking through, people would go on about how we’d go up another level again. But there was a complete failure to recognize that whilst these were good prospects you never know what level they will actually reach, and the players that we knew were world class would inevitably be in decline. Because we’ve been in an unprecedented period of success and are now starting to regress people will pin it all on Page and I don’t think he can stay on in that environment. I think the next manager coming in will struggle with the same issues, and only at that point will people take stock of the player quality available to us and revise their expectations. As I’ve said before, having certain expectations is a good thing because it demands high standards, however when the expectation are too high it becomes toxic when the team inevitably falls short. We need the right level of expectations - being realistic without being pessimistic. I think we’ll only get there after Page leaves, until then he’ll just be the scapegoat for everyone to pin their frustrations on - and that’s no good for anyone. Which is why most managers get sacked once the fans turn on them. Very few times can a manger turn it around. It generally only ever gets worse. |
|
|
|
Post by quetzal on Jun 19, 2024 10:26:49 GMT
Looking at the standard of our group, the irony is that if we had qualified Page would have been given the boot after the group stage. Because of the money we would have made at the Euros. Now we’re bloody trapped with him because we can’t afford to pay him off. It’s infuriating! So your saying that had the penalty kicks against Poland gone in our favour, Page would / should of been sacked if we'd gone onto loose to The Netherlands, Austria and France. Your deluded in your expectations. The Premier league first day fixtures were out yesterday. I looked through it and concluded we don't currently have a single nailed on starter in top flight football. In my years the cupboard containing quality footballers has never been so bare. While on here we're getting excited about a teenager joining Peterborough, our past and future rivals are cheering their Real Madrid based teenager scoring a worldie in Germany. We're in for a few lean years and would be whoever the manager is. Lets forget about 1 point from 6 against Armenia. We desperately need a new project. |
|
|
|
Post by Counting Crows on Jun 19, 2024 10:57:38 GMT
I haven't been in a position to want our manager to be replaced since the Bobby Gould days. I felt Tosh was doing the right thing and I felt Coleman needed time.
However, I feel now is the time to try something new. When I look at some of the nations at the Euros and their respective managers, I can't help thinking the FAW could compete (salary-wise) with the likes of the Romanian, Ukrainian, Albanian, Austrian, and Hungarian FAs... Jeez, even Georgia managed to attract top former French international Wily Sagnol.
It's a global game, and I don't think it would hurt going to the market with the aim of:
* staying in League B
* performing well in WC qualification
* being in a position with Euro 28 where we can reasonably expect to progress to the knock-out stages
Even if we can't quite compete salary-wise, many managers I'm sure would be attracted to us, even if it's with the ultimate step of managing in the English pyramid and earning the sort of money they could never earn managing in their own nation's pyramid.
Plus, ya know, we do actually have some talented players!
|
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 19, 2024 11:11:22 GMT
It's more that I don't want us to change after the NL because it will disadvantage whoever follows Page. They're straight into a WC qualification campaign while they're finding their feet then, which might undermine that campaign
The NL is actually very important. We need to continue preparing the wider squad for international football whilst ensuring we're not in the bottom 2
Need to give caps to the likes of Dasilva, Cabango, Stevens, JJ (plus another midfielder, Sheehan?), Koumas etc... Hard to do when we need wins/points against Montenegro/Iceland
In an ideal world a new manager would come in for the NL, but I can't see that happening. Best we can hope for is staying in League B imo. Then the WC will be Page's final campaign
|
|
|
|
Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 19, 2024 11:52:55 GMT
So your saying that had the penalty kicks against Poland gone in our favour, Page would / should of been sacked if we'd gone onto loose to The Netherlands, Austria and France. Your deluded in your expectations. The Premier league first day fixtures were out yesterday. I looked through it and concluded we don't currently have a single nailed on starter in top flight football. In my years the cupboard containing quality footballers has never been so bare. While on here we're getting excited about a teenager joining Peterborough, our past and future rivals are cheering their Real Madrid based teenager scoring a worldie in Germany. We're in for a few lean years and would be whoever the manager is. Yeah, I think too many people aren’t willing to accept the level of quality in our squad currently and adjust their expectations accordingly. Whilst I accept what others have argued - that the second tier of English football has now kicked on so much that it’s probably the sixth or seventh best league in the world, making direct comparisons with previous generations more difficult - I still think this is the poorest individual quality we’ve had available to us in my lifetime. Whilst we still should expect to be competitive in the expanded Euros qualification format, I don’t think we have the quality for us to expect to qualify for every Euros (in this case ahead of one of Croatia, Turkey or Poland). Around 5 years ago when we had Bale/Rambo/Allen in their prime and the likes of Ampadu/Brooks/Woodburn breaking through, people would go on about how we’d go up another level again. But there was a complete failure to recognize that whilst these were good prospects you never know what level they will actually reach, and the players that we knew were world class would inevitably be in decline. Because we’ve been in an unprecedented period of success and are now starting to regress people will pin it all on Page and I don’t think he can stay on in that environment. I think the next manager coming in will struggle with the same issues, and only at that point will people take stock of the player quality available to us and revise their expectations. As I’ve said before, having certain expectations is a good thing because it demands high standards, however when the expectation are too high it becomes toxic when the team inevitably falls short. We need the right level of expectations - being realistic without being pessimistic. I think we’ll only get there after Page leaves, until then he’ll just be the scapegoat for everyone to pin their frustrations on - and that’s no good for anyone. I'm surprised you're that downbeat on our individual quality. I assume you were alive in the 90s, when our squad was threadbare. Our record in that decade was W24 D10 L32. That was our worst decade since the 60s. The current decade to date is the only decade apart from the 30s where we've won more than we've lost W18 D17 L15. Given that we've played most of these internationals without Bale, Ramsey and Allen (or they've had limited fitness) that's not bad going. I would say that in terms of individual quality we obviously lack the top end quality of Bale, Ramsey and Allen we now have greater squad depth. Great servant that he was I don't think any of our first choice eleven are as limited as Gunter. Ledley and Taylor were also limited technically, albeit that we managed to use them very effectively in the Euro 2016 campaign. Neco Williams is a far better player than Taylor and Ampadu and JJ are better than Ledley. Roberts is better than Gunter. To my mind we are now at a point where qualifying is by no means a given, but there is enough quality in the side for us to come close to qualifying as a bare minimum. We were 4 points off qualifying remember. Long term things are less certain. It's very unlikely that we will be blessed with the good fortune of having 3 outstanding players coming through at the same time. We will need to tailor our expectations accordingly. But right now we're entitled to expect more consistent quality than we've been getting. |
|
|
|
Post by iot on Jun 19, 2024 13:58:44 GMT
Yeah, I think too many people aren’t willing to accept the level of quality in our squad currently and adjust their expectations accordingly. Whilst I accept what others have argued - that the second tier of English football has now kicked on so much that it’s probably the sixth or seventh best league in the world, making direct comparisons with previous generations more difficult - I still think this is the poorest individual quality we’ve had available to us in my lifetime. Whilst we still should expect to be competitive in the expanded Euros qualification format, I don’t think we have the quality for us to expect to qualify for every Euros (in this case ahead of one of Croatia, Turkey or Poland). Around 5 years ago when we had Bale/Rambo/Allen in their prime and the likes of Ampadu/Brooks/Woodburn breaking through, people would go on about how we’d go up another level again. But there was a complete failure to recognize that whilst these were good prospects you never know what level they will actually reach, and the players that we knew were world class would inevitably be in decline. Because we’ve been in an unprecedented period of success and are now starting to regress people will pin it all on Page and I don’t think he can stay on in that environment. I think the next manager coming in will struggle with the same issues, and only at that point will people take stock of the player quality available to us and revise their expectations. As I’ve said before, having certain expectations is a good thing because it demands high standards, however when the expectation are too high it becomes toxic when the team inevitably falls short. We need the right level of expectations - being realistic without being pessimistic. I think we’ll only get there after Page leaves, until then he’ll just be the scapegoat for everyone to pin their frustrations on - and that’s no good for anyone. I'm surprised you're that downbeat on our individual quality. I assume you were alive in the 90s, when our squad was threadbare. Our record in that decade was W24 D10 L32. That was our worst decade since the 60s. The current decade to date is the only decade apart from the 30s where we've won more than we've lost W18 D17 L15. Given that we've played most of these internationals without Bale, Ramsey and Allen (or they've had limited fitness) that's not bad going. I would say that in terms of individual quality we obviously lack the top end quality of Bale, Ramsey and Allen we now have greater squad depth. Great servant that he was I don't think any of our first choice eleven are as limited as Gunter. Ledley and Taylor were also limited technically, albeit that we managed to use them very effectively in the Euro 2016 campaign. Neco Williams is a far better player than Taylor and Ampadu and JJ are better than Ledley. Roberts is better than Gunter. To my mind we are now at a point where qualifying is by no means a given, but there is enough quality in the side for us to come close to qualifying as a bare minimum. We were 4 points off qualifying remember. Long term things are less certain. It's very unlikely that we will be blessed with the good fortune of having 3 outstanding players coming through at the same time. We will need to tailor our expectations accordingly. But right now we're entitled to expect more consistent quality than we've been getting. The Euro 04 campaign is the first one I remember. Can’t say I have an in-depth knowledge of our squad in the 90s, but I associate it with Southall, Ratcliffe, Hughes, Rush, Saunders and Giggs, which seems to me far exceeds the quality we now have (even if the results were poorer back then) Even if we have a few more capable members in our current squad, I just don’t think that comes close to making up for missing out on an axis of 5 to 6 very good to top class players that we’ve had in the past. I’m talking about Coleman’s Bale/Ramsey/Allen/Davies/Williams/Hennessey and Hughes’ Giggs/Bellamy/Hartson/Davies/Speed/Delaney/Jones. I don’t think our current squad are close to those levels. Yes you can compare some decent prem players in our current squad with marginally inferior players in the previous generations, but the fact that we lack the top prem (even world class) players that we’ve had in the past to sprinkle amongst those decent players makes a massive difference. |
|
|
|
Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 19, 2024 14:11:01 GMT
How many outstanding players do Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Scotland and Czechia have? A smattering and yet all have qualified. I'm not saying that qualification is a given with the current squad but we can reasonably expect to be closer than we were, and not to massively underperform twice against a weak country like Armenia.
|
|
|
|
Post by quetzal on Jun 19, 2024 14:21:15 GMT
I'm surprised you're that downbeat on our individual quality. I assume you were alive in the 90s, when our squad was threadbare. Our record in that decade was W24 D10 L32. That was our worst decade since the 60s. The current decade to date is the only decade apart from the 30s where we've won more than we've lost W18 D17 L15. Given that we've played most of these internationals without Bale, Ramsey and Allen (or they've had limited fitness) that's not bad going. I would say that in terms of individual quality we obviously lack the top end quality of Bale, Ramsey and Allen we now have greater squad depth. Great servant that he was I don't think any of our first choice eleven are as limited as Gunter. Ledley and Taylor were also limited technically, albeit that we managed to use them very effectively in the Euro 2016 campaign. Neco Williams is a far better player than Taylor and Ampadu and JJ are better than Ledley. Roberts is better than Gunter. To my mind we are now at a point where qualifying is by no means a given, but there is enough quality in the side for us to come close to qualifying as a bare minimum. We were 4 points off qualifying remember. Long term things are less certain. It's very unlikely that we will be blessed with the good fortune of having 3 outstanding players coming through at the same time. We will need to tailor our expectations accordingly. But right now we're entitled to expect more consistent quality than we've been getting. The Euro 04 campaign is the first one I remember. Can’t say I have an in-depth knowledge of our squad in the 90s, but I associate it with Southall, Ratcliffe, Hughes, Rush, Saunders and Giggs, which seems to me far exceeds the quality we now have (even if the results were poorer back then) Even if we have a few more capable members in our current squad, I just don’t think that comes close to making up for missing out on an axis of 5 to 6 very good to top class players that we’ve had in the past. I’m talking about Coleman’s Bale/Ramsey/Allen/Davies/Williams/Hennessey and Hughes’ Giggs/Bellamy/Hartson/Davies/Speed/Delaney/Jones. I don’t think our current squad are close to those levels. Yes you can compare some decent prem players in our current squad with marginally inferior players in the previous generations, but the fact that we lack the top prem (even world class) players that we’ve had in the past to sprinkle amongst those decent players makes a massive difference. [/quote/] Ian Rush, Southall, Ratcliffe and co had better results than our Euro 2016 team. There were only 8 teams in the finals then. So hard to qualify. |
|
|
|
Post by felinessex on Jun 19, 2024 15:20:49 GMT
Not really, only been following Wales since the days of Dave Bowen and Mike Smith. The days when failure was weirdly accepted, even though we had superb players. Plucky Wales. It was tougher to qualify, with smaller final competition groups back in those days, I still haven’t got over Anfield against Ally’s Army. That’s why I hate the reference to past failures as some sort of excuse for our current performance. It was way tougher to qualify for either the World Cup or Euros back in the day. It’s harder to fail to qualify nowadays, so making Page a hero for World Cup qualification doesn’t cut it for me. That’s untrue. UEFA teams in 2022 wc was 13. Last time it was lower was 1978. Where there were 10 teams from 32 nations. In 2022 it was 13 from 55. Arguably one of the hardest qualifications ever was 2022 WC. Euros is different but Page hasn’t got us to a Euros My primary reference was the Euros, seeing as that’s the current focus. The 1976 Euro finals for instance, when we lost the 2 legged play-off to Yugoslavia, had only 4 teams that contested the finals. West Germany, Netherlands, Czekoslovakia and Yugoslavia. Only the winners of each qualifying group progressed to the play-off stage, no second place, or third place play-off. The 1980 Euro finals were expanded to 8 teams, again only group winners qualified. We had a rather handy West Germany in our group. The 1984 finals again had 8 teams, only 7 able to qualify as group winners. The hosts France were granted automatic qualification. 1988 Euros, same, with 7 group winners qualifying and host Germany qualifying automatically. 1992, same, with expansion to a 16 team final format in 1996. This was the first with the top 2 in the group qualifying. We came 5th in a 6 team group won by West Germany. I think 2016 was the first time 24 teams qualified without 2nd placed group teams having to negotiate play-offs. I'm no statistician, but the expansion to the current 24 team final format, with multiple chances to qualify, must provide a significantly easier path to qualification than was the case in previous decades. Happy to be corrected if my assumption is flawed. |
|
|
|
Post by pclaude on Jun 19, 2024 18:39:50 GMT
That’s untrue. UEFA teams in 2022 wc was 13. Last time it was lower was 1978. Where there were 10 teams from 32 nations. In 2022 it was 13 from 55. Arguably one of the hardest qualifications ever was 2022 WC. Euros is different but Page hasn’t got us to a Euros My primary reference was the Euros, seeing as that’s the current focus. The 1976 Euro finals for instance, when we lost the 2 legged play-off to Yugoslavia, had only 4 teams that contested the finals. West Germany, Netherlands, Czekoslovakia and Yugoslavia. Only the winners of each qualifying group progressed to the play-off stage, no second place, or third place play-off. The 1980 Euro finals were expanded to 8 teams, again only group winners qualified. We had a rather handy West Germany in our group. The 1984 finals again had 8 teams, only 7 able to qualify as group winners. The hosts France were granted automatic qualification. 1988 Euros, same, with 7 group winners qualifying and host Germany qualifying automatically. 1992, same, with expansion to a 16 team final format in 1996. This was the first with the top 2 in the group qualifying. We came 5th in a 6 team group won by West Germany. I think 2016 was the first time 24 teams qualified without 2nd placed group teams having to negotiate play-offs. I'm no statistician, but the expansion to the current 24 team final format, with multiple chances to qualify, must provide a significantly easier path to qualification than was the case in previous decades. Happy to be corrected if my assumption is flawed. All correct, but you literally said Page making the WC isnt all that as it’s easier to qualify for it. Yes, the Euros is easier now. And we should be qualifying for it at least 50% of the times. Further, if Putin didn’t invade Ukraine we weren’t winning a game 5 days after Austria. So he had that piece of luck. He has got to go. The silence tells me something is afoot. |
|
|
|
Post by cadno on Jun 19, 2024 19:51:55 GMT
How many outstanding players do Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Scotland and Czechia have? A smattering and yet all have qualified. I'm not saying that qualification is a given with the current squad but we can reasonably expect to be closer than we were, and not to massively underperform twice against a weak country like Armenia. Yes and they look like they know what they’re doing. Looking at our group, it was really poor dropping points against Armenia and not picking more up. A better manager would be able to get more consistency out of this group. |
|
|
|
Post by iot on Jun 19, 2024 20:00:22 GMT
How many outstanding players do Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Scotland and Czechia have? A smattering and yet all have qualified. I'm not saying that qualification is a given with the current squad but we can reasonably expect to be closer than we were, and not to massively underperform twice against a weak country like Armenia. Yes completely agree. I do think that we probably got 2 points fewer than we deserved. I'd say we were lucky to get the point away in Croatia, but with a better ref would have beaten Turkey home (and more than deserved it), and also someone else mentioned we actually had a higher xg than Armenia when we lost 4-2, so on the balance of chances would usually have got at least a point. That would have put us on 14pts behind Croatia and Turkey on 16 which would have been respectable. And I would also argue that our performances in the playoffs were pretty good on the whole. That said, of course a better manager would have gotten us closer. So it's just a question of whether we can get a better manager in. I only see two realistic prospects - Osian Roberts, who I'd be happy to take a risk on but I'm not as confident as most that he'd be a success. And secondly, to go down the same route as other similar-standing nations and appoint an European Manager with decent international coaching pedigree. |
|
|
|
Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 19, 2024 20:06:08 GMT
Thinking further about the impact of the loss of Bale, Ramsey and Allen one of the reasons I'm not so concerned about their absence is that I'd prefer to have a team of consistent quality and balance than a team that has some stars and some duds. If you've followed Cymru for long enough you will know that we have far too often been let down by the weakest link. The classic example was in 1991 when we played the recently unified Germany in Nuremberg. We started with Southall, Radcliffe, Hughes, Saunders and Rush. Speed came on at half time and Giggs appeared late on for his debut. We'd had a terrific campaign up to that point but that match will be remembered by every Cymru fan for one player - Gavin Maguire. Poor lad, drafted in at the last minute from a Newcastle team near the foot of the second tier had the ultimate mare. Everything came down his side, but the moment that will be seared in my memory until my dying days is when Maguire crossed the ball into his own box for Rudi Voller to head home. The most inept thing I have ever seen in football. So give me a samey team over one with big strengths and big weaknesses any day.
|
|
|
|
Post by iot on Jun 19, 2024 20:18:45 GMT
Thinking further about the impact of the loss of Bale, Ramsey and Allen one of the reasons I'm not so concerned about their absence is that I'd prefer to have a team of consistent quality and balance than a team that has some stars and some duds. If you've followed Cymru for long enough you will know that we have far too often been let down by the weakest link. The classic example was in 1991 when we played the recently unified Germany in Nuremberg. We started with Southall, Radcliffe, Hughes, Saunders and Rush. Speed came on at half time and Giggs appeared late on for his debut. We'd had a terrific campaign up to that point but that match will be remembered by every Cymru fan for one player - Gavin Maguire. Poor lad, drafted in at the last minute from a Newcastle team near the foot of the second tier had the ultimate mare. Everything came down his side, but the moment that will be seared in my memory until my dying days is when Maguire crossed the ball into his own box for Rudi Voller to head home. The most inept thing I have ever seen in football. So give me a samey team over one with big strengths and big weaknesses any day. Yes but that's not what we're talking about. For most of my time watching Wales, we've had 2 to 3 top class players, another 3 to 4 who were very good, and then another 3 or 4 more limited players who had a specific role and did a decent job as the supporting cast. We now don't have any top class players at the same level that we've been accustomed to - it's just a mix of a handful of mid-to-lower tier prem players and then good Championship players. |
|
|
|
Post by winsumluzsum on Jun 19, 2024 21:35:09 GMT
I don't think we disagree fundamentally it's just that I'm less concerned about the standard of our current squad because of the historical context. That team of the Rush era would have qualified for the Euros had there been 24 places up for grabs (or 16 for that matter) but even that team suffered through having a mediocre midfield and defence of variable quality. In stark contrast the team that made the quarter finals of the European Championships in 76 was very much lacking in star quality but had decent quality in most departments, especially in midfield. Even so, the striker who got us to the quarters by beating Austria 1 nil was Wrexham's Arfon Griffiths.
Historically, before the arrival of Allen and Ramsey we've struggled with a lack of creative flair in midfield. With the retirement of Allen that was a big concern of mine (I'm less concerned about Ramsey's departure because of the multiple quality options we have), but JJs emergence has been reassuring. Yes we have some concerns about right back and goalkeeper but they're modest worries. Overall we have good quality, with decent options off the bench in attacking positions. That's still better than where we've been for much of our history. We should be knocking on the door of Euro qualification every time with this level of squad quality. I mean just think of the Northern Ireland squad in 2016: Jonny Evans, McCauley, Steve Davis and 8 others. Our current squad is far superior.
|
|
|
|
Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 20, 2024 12:15:00 GMT
In terms of depth;
GK - Non-existent
CB - Good starters, decent depth. Not a concern for me
WBs - Decent starters, decent depth. Just want to see Neco on the right & hopefully Dasilva/Stevens can offer a lot & Huggins/RND return. Not a concern for me
CM - Good starters but poor depth. Funny how Morrell used to get berated but without him it's looked threadbare. Hopefully the naysayers understand he has to be in the squad to be an option for when JJ/Ampadu need to come off
AM/WF - Our strongest area. No real concerns, but think we will rely on a pool of 5/6 players to get goals rather than having a main man
ST - Decent starting options but poor depth. Moore approaching his later years & doesn't look as athletic now to me. Behind him we're struggling and need to try someone that isn't Cullen
|
|
|
|
Post by rushy on Jun 20, 2024 13:44:55 GMT
We have a number of similar types who's main strength is running at pace with the ball, namely D James, Nico, Wilson, Johnson, Burns and Brooks maybe.
CM is the biggest weakness imo, someone who can find a pass that can make the most of those pacy players mentioned, looking at the way other teams play especially in the current Euros, the passing skills are superiot to ours , delivery from wide areas and dead ball situations, of course tactically we are not getting the best from this squad of players.
|
|
