Wales v Iceland/Montenegro Oct24

[conwy10]

Oct 11, 2024 21:00:42 GMT jono said:

Ward isn't good enough to be playing out from the back from his own goal line. He'll get caught out just now if he carries on.

Roberts nowhere near good enough for that 2nd goal. There were 7 red shirts in and around the 6 yard box and they still scored.

That 2nd half was Montenegro all over again. The only difference was we didn't get away with it this time.

Where's the golf club?

Could it be that we aren't conditioned enough to play Bellamys style? The high tempo draining the players as we do seem to drop off every match.

[winsumluzsum]

Oct 11, 2024 21:04:45 GMT iot said:

Oct 11, 2024 20:53:24 GMT surge said:

It's now three games into the new era (one game played in a full bath), so can we please express frustration without losing our heads?

Bellamy came in and talked about patterns rather than formations. Does anyone want to have a go at explaining why it went so wrong in second half with our patterns breaking down leaving us so exposed?

Is it as simple as Ampadu (one of our defensive leaders) being out and Cooper (typically a 10 for his club) asked to do more defensive role?

P.s. we probably should have lost that game. Players like Neco and Harry Wilson didn't let that happen and that's a positive to take. We have some young leaders in the side.

Wishful thinking I'm afraid, you're not going to get much level-headed thinking in a forum full of emotive, hot-headed nonsense.

For me, we have to acknowledge that we do lack quality - particularly when missing a few players. I mean, we ended the game with three Swansea players, and let's be honest they're a very average Championship club

To an extent I agree about our lack of quality, although that ignores the fact that some of our better players, such as Davies, were very poor second half. Cooper was probably our best player second half. If you look at a lot of the Iceland players, a lot play at a level that is below Championship level.

As tactically great that we were first half, second half we didn’t have any answers at all. I'm afraid that's on Bellamy.

[dai]

Oct 11, 2024 21:06:29 GMT iot said:

Oct 11, 2024 20:55:54 GMT dai said:

Bizarre post match interview. Bellamy very positive, said the match was ‘perfect’ and the second half was good for us (!)

I understand what he means by that but its a bemusing….

You've just completely contradicted yourself in that second sentence. If you understand what he means, then it's hardly bemusing is it...

Bemusing to hear him say it in a public setting. Not many fans will understand that a shit, tough half of football can be a good learning curve.

[surge]

Oct 11, 2024 21:16:06 GMT dai said:

Oct 11, 2024 21:06:29 GMT iot said:

You've just completely contradicted yourself in that second sentence. If you understand what he means, then it's hardly bemusing is it...

Bemusing to hear him say it in a public setting. Not many fans will understand that a shit, tough half of football can be a good learning curve.

Maybe that's part of our learning curve as a fan base too? Together stronger, don't be afraid to have dreams, but sometimes you win (and we are desperate to win) and sometimes you're learning things to help you win next time.

[winsumluzsum]

I didn't mind his comments post match that much but it would have been good if he had acknowledged a bit more clearly that he has much to learn from that second half as the players.

[welshowl]

I have to keep reminding myself I would have been happy beforehand to get a draw in Iceland.....

Quick look at the yellow cards in the Turkey 1-0 Montenegro game from tonight, shows that only 2 Montenegrans got yellow cards - and both of them were subs who came on. Probably no (new) suspensions for them ahead of the game in Cardiff on Monday. With another two key players out for us on Monday, it's going to be a far from relaxed game to watch.

[allezlesrouges]

There's been a pattern to all 3 games so far, great first half performance then the 2nd half we drop off a couple of levels. Maybe it's something to do with the intensity of the style and the lack of game time in our squad?

Bellamy reacted too late with the subs tonight, should have done them 5-10 mins before they get the first goal. Wrong subs to bring on as well imo. Burns has not shown anything to me in a Wales shirt, almost lost the game due to his sloppy back pass - Broadhead, Brooks or Koumas would have been better changes

Moore needed to come off as well, Harris was needed up front just to stretch them. With Moore & Burns up top we were inviting pressure, unable to get up the pitch and make it stick

Learning curve for Bellers in terms of game management tonight, but it's good this is happening now in the Nations League rather than in the qualifiers. Compare this to the beginning of Coleman or Giggs reign then there's a lot more positives and we're still unbeaten under Bellamy. I also think without Ampadu makes it a lot harder, we just don't have the quality of midfielders not to feel his absence

Also believe that a few players can come out of today with some credit. Ward had a decent game. Cooper much improved. Neco probably our best player and Wilson showing he's our most consistent forward in terms of quality

[ddirpytnop]

Oct 11, 2024 21:24:46 GMT winsumluzsum said:

I didn't mind his comments post match that much but it would have been good if he had acknowledged a bit more clearly that he has much to learn from that second half as the players.

Not sure what the manager or learnt from the second half but know what I learnt - or rather, already knew. 1) Moore is incapable of playing the high tempo, high pressing game that Bellamy suggests he wants us to play, so why pick him? 2) Cooper will never be capable of playing Ampadu's role. People seem to think he had a good game. I don't think he did - he didn't do the job he was there to do. Because he can't. He's not a defensive midfielder, he's at best an average attacking one. 3) Unless he was injured, and despite his first half booking, replacing Brennan with Burns was a catastrophically poor decision.4) Connor Roberts is liability and has been for a couple years and more. That Page, and now Bellamy keep picking him is ridiculous.5) Why bring on Cullen? I mean, seriously, why? What is he going to offer in a game like that?

[winsumluzsum]

Given the suspensions would this be a good opportunity to bring the likes of Evans into the squad? Or is he set against playing players at League one level or below? I imagine he'll just bring Beck, Allen and Colwill back in which is faie enough.

Allen won't be able to start so surely he's got to start Sheehan?

[winsumluzsum]

Oct 11, 2024 22:11:05 GMT ddirpytnop said:

Oct 11, 2024 21:24:46 GMT winsumluzsum said:

I didn't mind his comments post match that much but it would have been good if he had acknowledged a bit more clearly that he has much to learn from that second half as the players.

Not sure what the manager or learnt from the second half but know what I learnt - or rather, already knew. 1) Moore is incapable of playing the high tempo, high pressing game that Bellamy suggests he wants us to play, so why pick him? 2) Cooper will never be capable of playing Ampadu's role. People seem to think he had a good game. I don't think he did - he didn't do the job he was there to do. Because he can't. He's not a defensive midfielder, he's at best an average attacking one. 3) Unless he was injured, and despite his first half booking, replacing Brennan with Burns was a catastrophically poor decision.4) Connor Roberts is liability and has been for a couple years and more. That Page, and now Bellamy keep picking him is ridiculous.5) Why bring on Cullen? I mean, seriously, why? What is he going to offer in a game like that?

Agree with 1 (although to be fair Mooredid a decent job off the ball) and 3. Cooper isn't ideal as a defensive mid but I'm surprised you didn't think he did well defensively. He saved one certain goal with a perfectly timed challenge in the box. Going forwards his contribution was modest but generally looked after the ball quite well. As a makeshift DM he did Ok.

Roberts was good against Turkiye. Not so good tonight, but he is just back from injury, so that has to be factored in. Cullen is good at closing down which we needed ar that stage in the match. The odd thing is that Moore wasn't brought off.

Really surprised and disappointed that Brooks didn't get any game time.

[ddirpytnop]

Oct 11, 2024 22:11:17 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Given the suspensions would this be a good opportunity to bring the likes of Evans into the squad? Or is he set against playing players at League one level or below? I imagine he'll just bring Beck, Allen and Colwill back in which is faie enough.

Allen won't be able to start so surely he's got to start Sheehan?

You would have thought that he'll have to start Sheehan. I'd have played him against Iceland, or at least have brought him on. We completely lost control of the midfield tonight but Bellamy did nothing to try and rectify that.

[winsumluzsum]

I thought James played well first half but showed his inexperience second half. Bellamy needs to show more faith in Sheehan - he's an old head and has plenty of quality. The Icelandic player responsible for both goals plays for a Norwegian club - probably of League One quality.

[dragon64]

Oct 11, 2024 20:52:54 GMT melynwy said:

Oct 11, 2024 20:45:14 GMT dragon64 said:

wow Neco first half he was brilliant and our best player today

2-0 to 2-2 feels like a loss

second half we were dire

Iceland need credit they came our fighting and we couldnt cope

now JJ +Brennan out next game we are woefully short in cm

can see something like Neco playing DM but Roberts isnt fit though, but neither is RND match fit so FB becomes an issue

why did Brennan come off injury/to save a second yellow or did Bellamy pull him due to petulant booking?

Bellamy has a lot of work to do

Cullen coming on is baffling if koumas/broadhead not fit why are they on bench both surely come on before cullen

My guess is that Allen will play on monday.

All credit to Iceland for figuring it out and completely changing the game at half-time I say. But the first half still happened, and we were extremely good, so I'm confident we're on the right track. We failed to adapt 2nd half, but's that's something they can hopefully work on.

Under Bellamy now we've had 270 minutes of football. Most of those minutes has been good to outstanding. For 45 minutes today we couldn't figure it out, and unfortunately we paid for to, and the 90 against Montenegro in those conditions were no reflection of anything! He's also the first Wales manager to not lose in his first 3 games (Dylan Ebenezer just said so!) 

yes Joe will play some part on Monday for sure

I really like what Bellamy is trying to do and it will take time to get there, and some things will be tweaked but over the 3 games I am excited to see Wales play

He is trying IWBs for me I wanted Neco to be a WB/FB bombing up and down that flank, and overlapping Sorba giving him more options, but my God did he play some great passes in that game from a CM position so it certainly seems to work

I personally like Moore..[as a plan B now though] I dont see the point in starting him unless you have your wide players putting crosses in for him or going long to him
I would rather see especially the way we are set up to use a false 9 type of player there someone dynamic
I think we will see Broadhead being given a go there but not in this next game at the start anyway as again it is a squad with several players coming back from injury/not starting games at club level who are not match sharp.

I hope they all learn from today to me it looked like a team who came out second half thinking game was won and Iceland fully deserved the point
the stats are interesting I would have thought Iceland had more possession +more shots on target



 

[ddirpytnop]

Oct 11, 2024 22:19:40 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Oct 11, 2024 22:11:05 GMT ddirpytnop said:

Not sure what the manager or learnt from the second half but know what I learnt - or rather, already knew. 1) Moore is incapable of playing the high tempo, high pressing game that Bellamy suggests he wants us to play, so why pick him? 2) Cooper will never be capable of playing Ampadu's role. People seem to think he had a good game. I don't think he did - he didn't do the job he was there to do. Because he can't. He's not a defensive midfielder, he's at best an average attacking one. 3) Unless he was injured, and despite his first half booking, replacing Brennan with Burns was a catastrophically poor decision.4) Connor Roberts is liability and has been for a couple years and more. That Page, and now Bellamy keep picking him is ridiculous.5) Why bring on Cullen? I mean, seriously, why? What is he going to offer in a game like that?

Agree with 1 (although to be fair Mooredid a decent job off the ball) and 3. Cooper isn't ideal as a defensive mid but I'm surprised you didn't think he did well defensively. He saved one certain goal with a perfectly timed challenge in the box. Going forwards his contribution was modest but generally looked after the ball quite well. As a makeshift DM he did Ok.

Roberts was good against Turkiye. Not so good tonight, but he is just back from injury, so that has to be factored in. Cullen is good at closing down which we needed ar that stage in the match. The odd thing is that Moore wasn't brought off.

Really surprised and disappointed that Brooks didn't get any game time.

As a defensive midfielder, particularly where you are trying to play out from the back, you have to constantly show for the ball and be prepared and able to play neat, one touch passes whilst facing your own goal and under pressure. I can't see that Cooper did that (or that the goalie and defenders had enough confidence to give him the ball in those situations).The other thing you need is a physical presence, in and out of possession. I don't think Cooper has that.

[winsumluzsum]

Oct 11, 2024 22:31:08 GMT ddirpytnop said:

Oct 11, 2024 22:19:40 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Agree with 1 (although to be fair Mooredid a decent job off the ball) and 3. Cooper isn't ideal as a defensive mid but I'm surprised you didn't think he did well defensively. He saved one certain goal with a perfectly timed challenge in the box. Going forwards his contribution was modest but generally looked after the ball quite well. As a makeshift DM he did Ok.

Roberts was good against Turkiye. Not so good tonight, but he is just back from injury, so that has to be factored in. Cullen is good at closing down which we needed ar that stage in the match. The odd thing is that Moore wasn't brought off.

Really surprised and disappointed that Brooks didn't get any game time.

As a defensive midfielder, particularly where you are trying to play out from the back, you have to constantly show for the ball and be prepared and able to play neat, one touch passes whilst facing your own goal and under pressure. I can't see that Cooper did that (or that the goalie and defenders had enough confidence to give him the ball in those situations).The other thing you need is a physical presence, in and out of possession. I don't think Cooper has that.

You could say much the same about James mind. I thought he was pretty invisible second half. We seriously missed Ampadu.

[conwy10]

Oct 11, 2024 22:11:17 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Given the suspensions would this be a good opportunity to bring the likes of Evans into the squad? Or is he set against playing players at League one level or below? I imagine he'll just bring Beck, Allen and Colwill back in which is faie enough.

Allen won't be able to start so surely he's got to start Sheehan?

I don't really follow much football beyond Wales and Wrexham, why can't Allen start? I know he's getting on but have his legs completely gone now?

Being honest when James got suspended I though he has to start Allen. We are quite short in that area and if he's not capable why would he come back?

[dragon64]

Oct 11, 2024 22:37:07 GMT conwy10 said:

Oct 11, 2024 22:11:17 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Given the suspensions would this be a good opportunity to bring the likes of Evans into the squad? Or is he set against playing players at League one level or below? I imagine he'll just bring Beck, Allen and Colwill back in which is faie enough.

Allen won't be able to start so surely he's got to start Sheehan?

I don't really follow much football beyond Wales and Wrexham, why can't Allen start? I know he's getting on but have his legs completely gone now?

Being honest when James got suspended I though he has to start Allen. We are quite short in that area and if he's not capable why would he come back?

think Joe has played about 40 mins in total for Swans this season

he has come back because Bellamy wants him and we are really short in that position he can play a cameo role for sure and having 5 subs these days you can have a place for someone with his experience and skills, but he isnt match sharp so the players around him will need the legs, we have lost JJ now so it will be interesting 
IMO we should have brought in another CM to squad from the off and not picked Cullen

[hooky]

When reflecting on Kames' drop off in the second half its pretty obvious its down to fitness right as he has hardly playing 10 mins for his new French club. That is presumably the reason so many of our players were so poor second half I guess

[ddirpytnop]

Oct 11, 2024 22:36:01 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Oct 11, 2024 22:31:08 GMT ddirpytnop said:

As a defensive midfielder, particularly where you are trying to play out from the back, you have to constantly show for the ball and be prepared and able to play neat, one touch passes whilst facing your own goal and under pressure. I can't see that Cooper did that (or that the goalie and defenders had enough confidence to give him the ball in those situations).The other thing you need is a physical presence, in and out of possession. I don't think Cooper has that.

You could say much the same about James mind. I thought he was pretty invisible second half. We seriously missed Ampadu.

I don't think James was invisible second half - he just wasn't very good! Actually, James has the physical presence and the technical ability to play DM, but I'm not convinced that he currently has the composure and focus that is necessary. I also think he carries a potential attacking threat that we've yet to exploit - and he needs to be much further forward if we are ever to do so.

[dragon64]

Oct 11, 2024 22:45:33 GMT hooky said:

When reflecting on Kames' drop off in the second half its pretty obvious its down to fitness right as he has hardly playing 10 mins for his new French club. That is presumably the reason so many of our players were so poor second half I guess

This is an issue we have had for sometime now players not being match fit/sharp because they are not getting game time at club level

the only option is to drop lower down the leagues and pick players getting game time...but with lesser quality so its a bit of a catch 22

I grew up watching Wales pick some Division 3+4 players in the squad they did us proud, but I dont think some of the fans could handle that now, or could they?  

[ddirpytnop]

Oct 11, 2024 22:45:33 GMT hooky said:

When reflecting on Kames' drop off in the second half its pretty obvious its down to fitness right as he has hardly playing 10 mins for his new French club. That is presumably the reason so many of our players were so poor second half I guess

Whatever the reason was, he definitely looked tired in the second half - and wasn't the only one.

[ddirpytnop]

Oct 11, 2024 22:56:19 GMT dragon64 said:

Oct 11, 2024 22:45:33 GMT hooky said:

When reflecting on Kames' drop off in the second half its pretty obvious its down to fitness right as he has hardly playing 10 mins for his new French club. That is presumably the reason so many of our players were so poor second half I guess

This is an issue we have had for sometime now players not being match fit/sharp because they are not getting game time at club level

the only option is to drop lower down the leagues and pick players getting game time...but with lesser quality so its a bit of a catch 22

I grew up watching Wales pick some Division 3+4 players in the squad they did us proud, but I dont think some of the fans could handle that now, or could they?  

The game has moved on. I don't think most players at that level will have the attributes necessary to play the game Bellamy says he wants to play.

[dragon64]

Oct 11, 2024 23:01:07 GMT ddirpytnop said:

Oct 11, 2024 22:56:19 GMT dragon64 said:

This is an issue we have had for sometime now players not being match fit/sharp because they are not getting game time at club level

the only option is to drop lower down the leagues and pick players getting game time...but with lesser quality so its a bit of a catch 22

I grew up watching Wales pick some Division 3+4 players in the squad they did us proud, but I dont think some of the fans could handle that now, or could they?  

The game has moved on. I don't think most players at that level will have the attributes necessary to play the game Bellamy says he wants to play.

exactly...but the players who may do are not getting the game time and cannot sustain what Bellamy wants so there is the conundrum 

[dragon64]

Oct 11, 2024 22:57:59 GMT ddirpytnop said:

Oct 11, 2024 22:45:33 GMT hooky said:

When reflecting on Kames' drop off in the second half its pretty obvious its down to fitness right as he has hardly playing 10 mins for his new French club. That is presumably the reason so many of our players were so poor second half I guess

Whatever the reason was, he definitely looked tired in the second half - and wasn't the only one.

He is one of several palyers who is not playing at club level he isnt match fit/sharp

so we need to have options/rotation especially in CM so we need to have a squad that reflects that , we will get there I am happy with the progression 

[welrus]

Oct 11, 2024 22:00:26 GMT allezlesrouges said:

There's been a pattern to all 3 games so far, great first half performance then the 2nd half we drop off a couple of levels. Maybe it's something to do with the intensity of the style and the lack of game time in our squad?

Bellamy reacted too late with the subs tonight, should have done them 5-10 mins before they get the first goal. Wrong subs to bring on as well imo. Burns has not shown anything to me in a Wales shirt, almost lost the game due to his sloppy back pass - Broadhead, Brooks or Koumas would have been better changes

Moore needed to come off as well, Harris was needed up front just to stretch them. With Moore & Burns up top we were inviting pressure, unable to get up the pitch and make it stick

Learning curve for Bellers in terms of game management tonight, but it's good this is happening now in the Nations League rather than in the qualifiers. Compare this to the beginning of Coleman or Giggs reign then there's a lot more positives and we're still unbeaten under Bellamy. I also think without Ampadu makes it a lot harder, we just don't have the quality of midfielders not to feel his absence

Also believe that a few players can come out of today with some credit. Ward had a decent game. Cooper much improved. Neco probably our best player and Wilson showing he's our most consistent forward in terms of quality

100% agree Bellamy reacted too late. It wasn’t a situation where Iceland came out second half and we were getting back into the game. Iceland had clearly established complete control and were creating lots of chances.

Interesting comments by Bellamy that “the solutions (in the second half) were there”. Which too me is saying the players should have worked it out or didnt implement a plan to deal with this. Well maybe, but they hadnt, and with a lot of the players not getting much game time, they were bound to tire. Bellamy should have realised this. I suspect he does realise he acted too late.

I actually thought the substitutions worked quite well. We started to wrestle ourselves back into the game.

There does seem something of a pattern emerging. Good first halves. Clever set up. High energy. Opposing manager makes some changes tactics / people at HT. Poorer second half from us. We lose energy. We struggle to react to the changes made by the opposition.

[insertname]

Oct 11, 2024 21:07:08 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Bellamy didn't have any answers to the questions posed second half. At no stage did we have any control or sustained possession. Not entirely surprising as I thought we were lacking in our passing even in the first half apart from moments of exceptional quality.

If ever there was a case of compromising on principles and using Moore to relieve the pressure by going long then tonight was it. Is Bellamy willing to be pragmatic? Doesn't look like like it does it.

I didn’t see the first goal but the second was essentially a speculative long pass. I’ve heard the first was the same. We weren’t supposed to be scoring goals like that anymore, so I would say there is a pragmatism of sorts, unless Williams was playing off the cuff.

So far I’m sceptical Bellamy can do what he wants with the players available and that in time we may end up with more of an appreciation for what Page achieved than many gave him credit for at the time.

[zakbaby]

First half was very good, but as some have said, they changed tactics at half time and we didn't react. I thought Sorba was average at best throughout the game. Cooper the same. Never seen Ben Davies give the ball away so often to. I thought we were getting pressed really well by them second half but continued to either play short through them or chip little soft clearances to Moore which are hard to control at the best of times. I thought we should have kept Moore as far forward as possible and pump long clearances to him, then get out and start again. sloppy short passes and constantly giving the ball away kept us under pressure. Look at what Burns did when he came on, always looking to pass backwards and nearly cost us the game with a terrible back pass/through ball for them. Its seams that when we stop going forward and trying to score, we become sloppy and lose focus. Something to work on for sure. Lets not forget, Bellamy is an inexperienced manager in his own right, and we only need to be missing a key player, in this case Ampadu, and we will struggle. Both Bellamy and the players can use this campaign to fine tune and then get set for the world cup.
Next game, Id like to see Brooks in for Cooper and start Allen until his legs go.

[dragon64]

Would like to see the stats on how many times taking short goal kicks trying to play out from the back in the second half we actually managed to get out of our own half

I like the concept, but at times it looks a bit dodgy, and why have a target man play and not use him, I am not suggesting hoofball, but we should mix it up especially when Iceland uped the press we couldn't get out, so go over it sometimes if  you have an outlet on the pitch...use it

[kracken88]

If we play like that on Monday Montenegro will tear us apart,and we won't have the pitch as an excuse this time.

[iot]

Oct 12, 2024 0:06:42 GMT insertname said:

Oct 11, 2024 21:07:08 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Bellamy didn't have any answers to the questions posed second half. At no stage did we have any control or sustained possession. Not entirely surprising as I thought we were lacking in our passing even in the first half apart from moments of exceptional quality.

If ever there was a case of compromising on principles and using Moore to relieve the pressure by going long then tonight was it. Is Bellamy willing to be pragmatic? Doesn't look like like it does it.

I didn’t see the first goal but the second was essentially a speculative long pass. I’ve heard the first was the same. We weren’t supposed to be scoring goals like that anymore, so I would say there is a pragmatism of sorts, unless Williams was playing off the cuff.

So far I’m sceptical Bellamy can do what he wants with the players available and that in time we may end up with more of an appreciation for what Page achieved than many gave him credit for at the time.

You’re missing the point of what Bellamy is attempting to achieve. People have this impression that he’s obsessed with scoring goals with 20+ passes, but I’ve heard him say several times that if he can do it in 1, he will. In fact, that’s a very deliberate ploy. There were several times in the first half against Turkey where Ward played it short, short, short, but then when Turkey decided to press really high up, we had Sorba making a run behind and Ward went long, leading to really good opportunities. Bellamy’s all about drawing the opposition onto us and creating a situation where we have a player unmarked in a dangerous position, and then it’s just about finding him - whether that takes 20 passes or 1. The goals we scored through Wilson’s excellent runs and Neco’s pinpoint long balls weren’t us resorting to plan B after failing with Bellamy’s approach, it is a key part of his approach.