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Post by maelor on Oct 13, 2024 10:53:57 GMT
One of the most disappointing aspects of that second half performance was the very poor game management, especially from our senior pros: Davies, Wilson, Moore in particular. It's worth watching from the 60th minute onwards. We've been totally under the cosh for the first quarter, but very fortunately are still 2 goals to the good. In spite of a dumb long ball from Davies we win the second ball and finally work our way downfield, yielding the decent Cooper effort on goal - our solitary effort on goal. This is where Davies should have stepped in and made sure we took a short corner - after all only 3% of corners result in goals. What we desperately needed at that point in the game was to take the sting out of the game, through a period of sustained control. Instead we throw it in the mixer and Iceland clear. Neco has a second chance to regain possession but squanders the opportunity by looking forwards when a backwards pass would have kept possession. These are the sort of inflection points that I hope Bellamy will highlight to the players. By the way, poor as Roberts' and Rodon's efforts were for the second goal, the chief culprit was Sorba - he had the chance to cover Roberts, faced with a two on one, but slowed to a walk when a sprint could have enabled him to challenge for the ball. I think Roberts, Rodon, Ward and Sorba were all to blame for the second goal. If anyone of them had done what they should have the goal would have been prevented. It really was a shocking goal to concede. On Sorba, it wasn't the first time he got caught out not covering properly. Having said that we could pick out any number of players who didn't do what they were supposed to, particularly second half. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Oct 13, 2024 11:25:16 GMT
Reading between the lines here, it seems the consensus of opinion appears to be the unwavering style of play Bellamy is fixed on, and the understanding of it by the players, not surprising that certain parts of this is whether the players have the abilities to as an example, play out from the back. I think this is something that coaches now are refusing to take into account, it's my way or the highway attitude, but we'll see how things develop for us because it's still early days in Bellamy's tenure. The Turkiye game showed we most definitely can play out from the back under reasonably favourable circumstances. The game against Iceland showed we aren't there yet when there is a lot of pressure exerted on the man in possession. I'm pretty sure Bellamy will double down, perhaps with minor tweaks. The only alternative is to go full on POMO and lump it up to the big man. This will be anathema to Bellamy and feel like a complete betrayal of his principles. Instead he will try and focus on easy wins - such as getting players with their backs to goal knocking the ball back rather than turning into trouble. Wilson coughed up possession several times in this way. There is a danger of over-interpreting what was basically a dreadful 45 minutes where bad action was followed by bad action. There's no way that Wes Burns plays that badly for Ipswich otherwise he wouldn’t be featuring for them in the Premier League. |
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Post by jimexotic on Oct 13, 2024 11:27:24 GMT
I can't watch the second goal anymore, it's dumb and careless, really sloppy. A lot of goals we concede seem to happen from sloppiness and a lack of urgency which is why the way we often look suicidal passing it out at the back. We saw what happened in the World Cup when we tried it against England, you've got to pick when to do it and, more importantly, you've got to be good at it.
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Post by iot on Oct 13, 2024 12:01:25 GMT
Reading between the lines here, it seems the consensus of opinion appears to be the unwavering style of play Bellamy is fixed on, and the understanding of it by the players, not surprising that certain parts of this is whether the players have the abilities to as an example, play out from the back. I think this is something that coaches now are refusing to take into account, it's my way or the highway attitude, but we'll see how things develop for us because it's still early days in Bellamy's tenure. I think there is some consensus around that, but also think it’s a common misconception. Bellamy frequently refers to the importance of being adaptable and having several different ways of playing and the importance of changing shape and approach during games. He also wants to put the onus on the players to do that, that’s why he always refers to ‘building a library’ in the players’ heads, so that they know how they need to change in response to different situations (and that’s why, incidentally, he said the second half was really good - not because of the performance as has been misconstrued, but because it allows him to develop that ‘library’ by showing the type of things they should have done differently in the hope that they can react better in future). So my understanding of Bellamy’s approach is that there is a broad framework guided by key principles such as pressing with intensity, bravery on the ball, positionally fluid etc. - these are the ‘non-negotiables’ he refers to. But within that overarching framework there is this library of different shapes and approaches that the players can draw on. So, far from being rigid and wedded to a single system as most people seem to now think, Bellamy wants us to operate multiple different systems and formations. Some people questioned whether we have the players and time needed to coach this given the context of international football. I was also skeptical about this too, but have been encouraged by the first few games, even with the inevitable blips along the way. |
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Post by fiveattheback on Oct 13, 2024 13:03:31 GMT
One of the most disappointing aspects of that second half performance was the very poor game management, especially from our senior pros: Davies, Wilson, Moore in particular. It's worth watching from the 60th minute onwards. We've been totally under the cosh for the first quarter, but very fortunately are still 2 goals to the good. In spite of a dumb long ball from Davies we win the second ball and finally work our way downfield, yielding the decent Cooper effort on goal - our solitary effort on goal. This is where Davies should have stepped in and made sure we took a short corner - after all only 3% of corners result in goals. What we desperately needed at that point in the game was to take the sting out of the game, through a period of sustained control. Instead we throw it in the mixer and Iceland clear. Neco has a second chance to regain possession but squanders the opportunity by looking forwards when a backwards pass would have kept possession. These are the sort of inflection points that I hope Bellamy will highlight to the players. By the way, poor as Roberts' and Rodon's efforts were for the second goal, the chief culprit was Sorba - he had the chance to cover Roberts, faced with a two on one, but slowed to a walk when a sprint could have enabled him to challenge for the ball. Watch the last 2 mins against Montenegro back, Sorba again also guilty of not playing the simple ball into Harris that would have resulted in a shot on goal, which instead leads to another chance for the home side to attack. Maybe he’s not intelligent enough, but then he wouldn’t be the only one. We were spoilt with Bale, Rambo, Allen, Williams & Ledley all in the same side together, not only excellent at what they do, but also all with a ‘cute’ footballing brain to go with it. An often overlooked, but vital, part of that team |
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Post by underwood on Oct 13, 2024 13:06:57 GMT
Watch the last 2 mins against Montenegro back, Sorba again also guilty of not playing the simple ball into Harris that would have resulted in a shot on goal, which instead leads to another chance for the home side to attack. Maybe he’s not intelligent enough, but then he wouldn’t be the only one. We were spoilt with Bale, Rambo, Allen, Williams & Ledley all in the same side together, not only excellent at what they do, but also all with a ‘cute’ footballing brain to go with it. An often overlooked, but vital, part of that team He’s never been replaced. |
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Post by iot on Oct 13, 2024 13:31:39 GMT
Fair play, I haven't watched the clips back, but just seen this and didn't realise at the time how good the build up play to our first goal was. Can't believe it was described as a speculative long ball! x.com/Cymru/status/1845403325807706604 |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Oct 13, 2024 13:47:09 GMT
One other observation - the ref was reffing his first international, and you could tell. No major bad decisions but failed to award free kicks to our players for blatant shoves on numerous occasions, including one on Cooperon the edge of the box. Plus the yellow card for Ward at the end was ludicrous. He ran down the pitch and stopped for a few seconds to communicate with his defenders and gets a card for a delay of 3 or 4 seconds max. Ridiculous.
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Post by 1gwaunview on Oct 13, 2024 14:38:43 GMT
Watch the last 2 mins against Montenegro back, Sorba again also guilty of not playing the simple ball into Harris that would have resulted in a shot on goal, which instead leads to another chance for the home side to attack. Maybe he’s not intelligent enough, but then he wouldn’t be the only one. We were spoilt with Bale, Rambo, Allen, Williams & Ledley all in the same side together, not only excellent at what they do, but also all with a ‘cute’ footballing brain to go with it. An often overlooked, but vital, part of that team You could also mention James Chester, was Mr Reliable for us during the glory days. |
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Post by iot on Oct 13, 2024 15:45:31 GMT
Always worth listening to Bellamy speak - just heard him in his press conference now and two things stand out:
1. Analysis of what went wrong in the second half. According to Bellamy, Iceland didn't really change their shape or anything drastically in the second half. The main difference was increased intensity in how they pressed, how quickly they shut us down. He then said that our response should have been to increase our intensity in response in terms of how quickly we moved off the ball into positions to create angles for a pass. What we saw was all of our passing lanes being shut down because they were working harder to close down space than we were in opening space.
2. He shut down this talk of him being obsessed with tippy tappy football. He said that he'd much prefer going from back to front in 1 pass, but you have to create the conditions for us to have the numbers - creating 1v1 scenarios rather than lumping it up to a player who's outnumbered by 3 or 4 of theirs.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 13, 2024 16:33:55 GMT
Reading between the lines here, it seems the consensus of opinion appears to be the unwavering style of play Bellamy is fixed on, and the understanding of it by the players, not surprising that certain parts of this is whether the players have the abilities to as an example, play out from the back. I think this is something that coaches now are refusing to take into account, it's my way or the highway attitude, but we'll see how things develop for us because it's still early days in Bellamy's tenure. The Turkiye game showed we most definitely can play out from the back under reasonably favourable circumstances. The game against Iceland showed we aren't there yet when there is a lot of pressure exerted on the man in possession. I'm pretty sure Bellamy will double down, perhaps with minor tweaks. The only alternative is to go full on POMO and lump it up to the big man. This will be anathema to Bellamy and feel like a complete betrayal of his principles. Instead he will try and focus on easy wins - such as getting players with their backs to goal knocking the ball back rather than turning into trouble. Wilson coughed up possession several times in this way. There is a danger of over-interpreting what was basically a dreadful 45 minutes where bad action was followed by bad action. There's no way that Wes Burns plays that badly for Ipswich otherwise he wouldn’t be featuring for them in the Premier League. I agree I think at home we'll be much better at it, but conditions change a lot in away games and that needs to be factored into Bellamy's approach and his expectations of how we play. I fully expect a more fluid style of play at home against Montenegro as our nice pitch allows for it. Hopefully by the time the qualifiers roll around we have a clearer better plan for away games I agree Burns must be better for his club. However, some players are suited better to internationals than club games - e.g Joniesta thrived in internationals but never seemed to replicate it at club level. I think Burns may be the opposite to this. Can do well for a decent Championship club but doesn't have the skill set to distinguish himself in internationals. I think it can work both ways |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 13, 2024 16:41:18 GMT
Darlow
Neco
Mepham
Cabango
Davies
Allen
Wilson
Cooper
Brooks
Broadhead
Koumas
Would love to see a lineup like this, would freshen things up a bit. Can see Rodon, Sheehan and Harris potentially starting as well though
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Post by dragon64 on Oct 13, 2024 18:03:01 GMT
Darlow Neco Mepham Cabango Davies Allen Wilson Cooper Brooks Broadhead Koumas Would love to see a lineup like this, would freshen things up a bit. Can see Rodon, Sheehan and Harris potentially starting as well though we know there has to be at least 2 changes but I expect to see several, there are issues with players not being match fit once again so don't think someone like Connor will start CM is the big issue Joe isnt fit at all but looking like he will have to start and have to have legs around him can see wilson+cooper like you being the option[sheehan will get game time too] Broadhead I have said before can see him getting a go at false 9...but again he is coming back from injury so could be Harris but there will be a different set up with the front 3 Darlow Neco Mepham Rodon Davies Allen Wilson Cooper Brooks Broadhead Koumas |
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Post by manulike on Oct 13, 2024 19:09:18 GMT
Watch the last 2 mins against Montenegro back, Sorba again also guilty of not playing the simple ball into Harris that would have resulted in a shot on goal, which instead leads to another chance for the home side to attack. Maybe he’s not intelligent enough, but then he wouldn’t be the only one. We were spoilt with Bale, Rambo, Allen, Williams & Ledley all in the same side together, not only excellent at what they do, but also all with a ‘cute’ footballing brain to go with it. An often overlooked, but vital, part of that team Oh. The two Joes tomorrow. That will get the CCS bouncing again. I think Craig has until midnight to submit the squad ... Please remember to remove James and Johnson this time ;-) |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Oct 13, 2024 19:43:52 GMT
Darlow Neco Mepham Cabango Davies Allen Wilson Cooper Brooks Broadhead Koumas Would love to see a lineup like this, would freshen things up a bit. Can see Rodon, Sheehan and Harris potentially starting as well though we know there has to be at least 2 changes but I expect to see several, there are issues with players not being match fit once again so don't think someone like Connor will start CM is the big issue Joe isnt fit at all but looking like he will have to start and have to have legs around him can see wilson+cooper like you being the option[sheehan will get game time too] Broadhead I have said before can see him getting a go at false 9...but again he is coming back from injury so could be Harris but there will be a different set up with the front 3 Darlow Neco Mepham Rodon Davies Allen Wilson Cooper Brooks Broadhead Koumas I'd be amazed if Allen, Brooks or Broadhead start. In fact if any of this trio get more than half an hour I'd be surprised. I've got a hunch that Bellamy will be relectant to use Sheehan so something left field, like playing Neco or Davies as a DM is a possibility. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 13, 2024 19:53:20 GMT
I'd be amazed if Allen, Brooks or Broadhead start. In fact if any of this trio get more than half an hour I'd be surprised. I've got a hunch that Bellamy will be relectant to use Sheehan so something left field, like playing Neco or Davies as a DM is a possibility. No way he would play a player out of position as a midfielder rather than have Sheehan play. There's no point in Sheehan being in the squad if that's the case |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Oct 13, 2024 20:12:09 GMT
I'd be amazed if Allen, Brooks or Broadhead start. In fact if any of this trio get more than half an hour I'd be surprised. I've got a hunch that Bellamy will be relectant to use Sheehan so something left field, like playing Neco or Davies as a DM is a possibility. No way he would play a player out of position as a midfielder rather than have Sheehan play. There's no point in Sheehan being in the squad if that's the case I hope you're right but I'm not so sure. He's already played Cooper as a DM in preference to Sheehan after all. |
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Post by dragon64 on Oct 13, 2024 21:07:59 GMT
I'd be amazed if Allen, Brooks or Broadhead start. In fact if any of this trio get more than half an hour I'd be surprised. I've got a hunch that Bellamy will be relectant to use Sheehan so something left field, like playing Neco or Davies as a DM is a possibility. No way he would play a player out of position as a midfielder rather than have Sheehan play. There's no point in Sheehan being in the squad if that's the case what option would you go with as the cupboard is bare when the squad came came out several of us said CM was really short and someone like Cullen shouldn't be there a CM should be said earlier in the thread could see this happening[Neco] IF there are no other options, and we are getting there also have said this and see it as our biggest problem- the main issue for me and a challenge he will sadly have in every game is some of our players are not getting playing time for their clubs, so they wont be able to sustain what Bellamy wants to see for a full game
what would your starting XI be, genuine question mate like to see our ideas ? It seems to be we get our game plan working early on and score our goals so far, its when the players look sharp and fluid so it might be the same pattern again go out to get a good start and then we fall away in the second half due to the problems in bold if several player are not fit enough to complete at least 45 mins then they shouldn't be in the squad, you can carry 1 or 2 due to 5 subs rule but we have far more than that its frustrating because we seem to have someone wanting to let the team have a go |
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Post by iot on Oct 13, 2024 21:14:33 GMT
I’ve generally been impressed with Bellamy and his media outings, albeit unnecessarily tetchy at times. However, there’s a couple of different occasions today where he’s bemoaned our lack of 6s and said that he’d go out and buy in that position if he were at a club. Obviously we all know that, but it’s pretty poor messaging isn’t it? Not exactly something that gives confidence to those who are asked to perform the role. Also sounds like he’s starting to make excuses, which he said he’s really against. And he said we’re light in that area throughout the age groups, when in fact it’s probably our strongest area in several groups - Crew, King, Savage, and the last couple of u17s were strong in that position
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Post by zakbaby on Oct 13, 2024 21:56:18 GMT
We all wondered what would happen and who would play CM when Ampadu and James are missing, well we'll soon find out. At least its not a qualifier and potentially our easiest home game. So no excuses,plan B time!
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Post by neverever on Oct 13, 2024 21:58:51 GMT
Its certainly never boring with Craig in charge.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 13, 2024 23:38:10 GMT
No way he would play a player out of position as a midfielder rather than have Sheehan play. There's no point in Sheehan being in the squad if that's the case I hope you're right but I'm not so sure. He's already played Cooper as a DM in preference to Sheehan after all. Cooper wasn't playing as a DM. James was a DM and Cooper & Wilson were twin 8s |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 13, 2024 23:40:40 GMT
No way he would play a player out of position as a midfielder rather than have Sheehan play. There's no point in Sheehan being in the squad if that's the case what option would you go with as the cupboard is bare when the squad came came out several of us said CM was really short and someone like Cullen shouldn't be there a CM should be said earlier in the thread could see this happening[Neco] IF there are no other options, and we are getting there also have said this and see it as our biggest problem- the main issue for me and a challenge he will sadly have in every game is some of our players are not getting playing time for their clubs, so they wont be able to sustain what Bellamy wants to see for a full game
what would your starting XI be, genuine question mate like to see our ideas ? It seems to be we get our game plan working early on and score our goals so far, its when the players look sharp and fluid so it might be the same pattern again go out to get a good start and then we fall away in the second half due to the problems in bold if several player are not fit enough to complete at least 45 mins then they shouldn't be in the squad, you can carry 1 or 2 due to 5 subs rule but we have far more than that its frustrating because we seem to have someone wanting to let the team have a go Full backs aren't CMs, even the ones that invert. Inverting and actually playing CM are completely different things. Hence why when Trent actually played in midfield for England in the summer it was a bit of a disaster. Neco can't play CM |
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Post by dragon64 on Oct 14, 2024 0:37:38 GMT
what option would you go with as the cupboard is bare when the squad came came out several of us said CM was really short and someone like Cullen shouldn't be there a CM should be said earlier in the thread could see this happening[Neco] IF there are no other options, and we are getting there also have said this and see it as our biggest problem- the main issue for me and a challenge he will sadly have in every game is some of our players are not getting playing time for their clubs, so they wont be able to sustain what Bellamy wants to see for a full game
what would your starting XI be, genuine question mate like to see our ideas ? It seems to be we get our game plan working early on and score our goals so far, its when the players look sharp and fluid so it might be the same pattern again go out to get a good start and then we fall away in the second half due to the problems in bold if several player are not fit enough to complete at least 45 mins then they shouldn't be in the squad, you can carry 1 or 2 due to 5 subs rule but we have far more than that its frustrating because we seem to have someone wanting to let the team have a go Full backs aren't CMs, even the ones that invert. Inverting and actually playing CM are completely different things. Hence why when Trent actually played in midfield for England in the summer it was a bit of a disaster. Neco can't play CMyes I agree totally that's why I added the caveat IF there are no other options and we/ I am guessing what may happen its not what I want to see wanted to see your team and your ideas to see your solution we are basically down to the bare bones in CM the 2 CMs[fully match fit] are cooper and Sheehan and that with all due respect doesnt install confidence, or give the options to play as Bellamy wants you need an extra body in there IMO so Joe can do a job possibly for 45mins max, so perhaps its a 4-2-3-1 with the attacking options to include both wilson+brooks its going to be a challenge but I am looking forward to seeing how Bellamy addresses it |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Oct 14, 2024 7:33:00 GMT
I hope you're right but I'm not so sure. He's already played Cooper as a DM in preference to Sheehan after all. Cooper wasn't playing as a DM. James was a DM and Cooper & Wilson were twin 8s That's assuming you can specify a formation with the way Bellamy does things... In any event Cooper was dropping deep at times to do defensive work and will probably need to do the same tonight. If Sheehan isn't selected to start tonight that will be a clear indication of Bellamy's view on fielding Sheehan and possibly lower league players in general. |
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Post by fireboy0610 on Oct 14, 2024 8:16:05 GMT
Cooper wasn't playing as a DM. James was a DM and Cooper & Wilson were twin 8s That's assuming you can specify a formation with the way Bellamy does things... In any event Cooper was dropping deep at times to do defensive work and will probably need to do the same tonight. If Sheehan isn't selected to start tonight that will be a clear indication of Bellamy's view on fielding Sheehan and possibly lower league players in general. I'd be shocked if sheehan doesn't play tonight, he's the only defensive midfielder with a bit of experience we have. |
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Post by cogancoronation31 on Oct 14, 2024 9:26:49 GMT
I'm expecting to see Sheehan start tonight. Bolton fans love him, but he's yet to produce the goods for Wales - possibly because he's never been given an extended run. If he were to start this evening, he could be replaced in the second half - say on the hour - to give Joe Allen a reasonable 30 mins or so to play a part.
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Post by rushy on Oct 14, 2024 9:35:48 GMT
Watch the last 2 mins against Montenegro back, Sorba again also guilty of not playing the simple ball into Harris that would have resulted in a shot on goal, which instead leads to another chance for the home side to attack. Maybe he’s not intelligent enough, but then he wouldn’t be the only one. We were spoilt with Bale, Rambo, Allen, Williams & Ledley all in the same side together, not only excellent at what they do, but also all with a ‘cute’ footballing brain to go with it. An often overlooked, but vital, part of that team A role that Ampadu could and should do , but Bellamy's system probably won't allow. |
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Post by fireboy0610 on Oct 14, 2024 9:35:58 GMT
I'm expecting to see Sheehan start tonight. Bolton fans love him, but he's yet to produce the goods for Wales - possibly because he's never been given an extended run. If he were to start this evening, he could be replaced in the second half - say on the hour - to give Joe Allen a reasonable 30 mins or so to play a part. I think that's the plan. |
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Post by johnoster on Oct 14, 2024 9:46:48 GMT
First chance I've had to watch the game back this morning, and the defending for the two Iceland goals is really poor.
You're looking for intensity without the ball, Wilson is walking and gesturing rather than putting pressure on the player with the ball, and Moore is hesitant in coming out to close down.
The second goal is worse, Roberts beaten too easily, Thomas starts to follow his man then gives up, Rodon tries a kneeling block rather than cutting off the direct channel to goal.
If I was Bellamy I'd be furious after that.
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