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Post by cadno on Feb 19, 2023 14:45:21 GMT
If we don’t pick players when they’ve been performing great as a squad announcement is coming then there was no point in ever creating a larger pool of players to pick from. His seasons before this one are irrelevant. He’s scoring hat-tricks in the championship it’s a no brainer. One or two hat tricks in isolation is a pretty poor metric for a call up imo. Surely you'd want to see more consistency across a season and historically too otherwise you're basing his eligibility on one or two opponents simply having a bad day defensively. Come on haha |
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Post by cadno on Feb 19, 2023 14:45:49 GMT
If Bradshaw was playing in league 2 or non league he’d be banging goals in, obviously. He’s got a decent return of assists this season too. What the stats don’t really show is that he’s very good at linking up play and running the channels etc. As Rowett pointed out in an interview recently this month:
“Bradders is the same, what an invaluable member of the team,” Rowett added.
“He’s been brilliant. He plays for the team, runs, chases, presses, does everything with everything he’s got and has added those skilful finishes to it. The nomination is very much deserved.”
He’s more deserving of a call up than Mullin imo but I’m happy for both to be called up!
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Post by bale-droed on Feb 19, 2023 14:52:41 GMT
If we don’t pick players when they’ve been performing great as a squad announcement is coming then there was no point in ever creating a larger pool of players to pick from. His seasons before this one are irrelevant. He’s scoring hat-tricks in the championship it’s a no brainer. One or two hat tricks in isolation is a pretty poor metric for a call up imo. Surely you'd want to see more consistency across a season and historically too otherwise you're basing his eligibility on one or two opponents simply having a bad day defensively. In this instance I’m mean the whole season. A March squad announcement is announced when there’s pretty much 1/3rd of a European season left. How a player has performed over the first 2/3rds of the season should matter. We have to reward players who are performing at club level. Considering some players peak in late 20s or early 30s at the level we’re at it would be a bit destructive to say something like” Can’t call him up he had a bad season when he was 24 6 years ago in league 1” |
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Post by fiveattheback on Feb 19, 2023 15:13:29 GMT
If we're seriously considering a non-league player who we're not even sure qualifies for Wales for a call up then surely Bradshaw's a shoo-in? Playing consistently for a side who are 6th in the Championship, can't ignore that
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Post by insertname on Feb 19, 2023 15:56:22 GMT
One or two hat tricks in isolation is a pretty poor metric for a call up imo. Surely you'd want to see more consistency across a season and historically too otherwise you're basing his eligibility on one or two opponents simply having a bad day defensively. In this instance I’m mean the whole season. A March squad announcement is announced when there’s pretty much 1/3rd of a European season left. How a player has performed over the first 2/3rds of the season should matter. We have to reward players who are performing at club level. Considering some players peak in late 20s or early 30s at the level we’re at it would be a bit destructive to say something like” Can’t call him up he had a bad season when he was 24 6 years ago in league 1” Ah I misunderstood your original point |
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Post by insertname on Feb 19, 2023 16:02:30 GMT
If we're seriously considering a non-league player who we're not even sure qualifies for Wales for a call up then surely Bradshaw's a shoo-in? Playing consistently for a side who are 6th in the Championship, can't ignore that I agree Bradshaw should be looked at but you’re neglecting to take into account that Bradshaw has been called up before and for whatever reason not selected since the China cup which was a long time ago now. In the mean time Moore has come from the lower leagues to leap over Bradshaw’s head into being a key striker for Wales. Based on that it makes sense that Mullin could be considered of more interest than Bradshaw. He may play non-league now but it’s quite feasible he has a higher skill cap than Bradshaw and suits Wales better with his high energy attributes. |
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Post by cadno on Feb 19, 2023 16:22:46 GMT
Having watched Millwall a few times, Bradshaw certainly has high energy and is consistently playing due to his other attributes as pointed out by Rowett in the quotes I posted above, closing down, bringing others into play, running the channels etc. Bradshaw would score loads in non league, quite obviously! He took his chances brilliantly vs Sheff Utd. Tbh I don’t think he’s ever been given a fair opportunity for Wales, and with 80+goals in the championship and league 1 compared to Mullin’s 3, Bradshaw is more deserving of a call up. Both should be called up in March though, imo!
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Post by fiveattheback on Feb 19, 2023 16:48:46 GMT
If we're seriously considering a non-league player who we're not even sure qualifies for Wales for a call up then surely Bradshaw's a shoo-in? Playing consistently for a side who are 6th in the Championship, can't ignore that I agree Bradshaw should be looked at but you’re neglecting to take into account that Bradshaw has been called up before and for whatever reason not selected since the China cup which was a long time ago now. In the mean time Moore has come from the lower leagues to leap over Bradshaw’s head into being a key striker for Wales. Based on that it makes sense that Mullin could be considered of more interest than Bradshaw. He may play non-league now but it’s quite feasible he has a higher skill cap than Bradshaw and suits Wales better with his high energy attributes. Moore and Mullin's career trajectories aren't that similar, they're a poor comparison to each other if that's what you're trying to get at I think Bradshaw's been a tad unfortunate to only get 3 caps, he's never played in a proper competitive international and he's never even started a game for Wales Why is it feasible that Mullin has a higher "skill cap" than Bradshaw? Mullin's career best is 3 goals in League 1, Bradshaw scored 17 goals last time he played a season there. You've mentioned historic records in this thread, what about Mullin's previous seasons before 20/21? How do they compare to Bradshaw's? I think we should probably have a look at Mullin if he qualifies, but there's lots of stuff said about his talent level that isn't backed up by he majority of his career in the EFL |
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Post by insertname on Feb 19, 2023 18:07:31 GMT
With respect I recall you arguing the opposite on the subject of Bradshaw- here you say he’s been unlucky yet previously you said this when debating Harris v Bradshaw: “It's only two more caps, Harris isn't guaranteed a squad spot either he's been dropped previously. I could be just as harsh to Bradshaw and say why should we call up a striker who didn't manage a goal against Panama and China? Bradshaw was in most squads from after Euro 2016 until the 2020 qualifiers, they've had plenty of opportunities to see him and have obviously decided he's not good enough. I do wonder if his refusal to join up with the 21s hurt his senior prospects” apostlewelshfootie.proboards.com/thread/10677/paul-mullin?page=8So it seems there’s something of a contradiction there. FWIW I agree with your latter position- when you replied to me with that response I was under the impression that Bradshaw had one cap against Ukraine. You then pointed out to me he’s had more caps (as per your response copied in above). The fact he’s been given more caps and against China weakens his case for a call up over Mullin and Collins imo. |
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Post by fiveattheback on Feb 19, 2023 18:29:34 GMT
You've got me there to be fair
I've hit the point with Wales that I think, for the next couple of camps, we should be looking at practically everyone we can, including Bradshaw, Mullin etc up top but also Taylor, Lowery, Williams etc in midfield (once fit) and maybe even someone like Declan John as we're lacking a natural left wing back.
What I do find myself getting slightly annoyed by is that I think a lot of the debate around the Welsh squad and certain players has become over-exaggerated. For example Harris gets a fair bit of stick for "always" being in the squad and has been perceived to have had a host of chances, when in reality he isn't guaranteed a squad spot and has 5 caps, mostly in friendlies. Then on the other side you have the flavour of the month being the answer to all our problems and described as a far better player despite often playing at a lower level. The over-reactions every time there's a squad announcement are getting more and more ridiculous, our first World Cup squad for 64 years was overshadowed by people complaining about the 26th player!
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Post by insertname on Feb 19, 2023 18:47:43 GMT
I agree about exploring every option available, I’ve always been of that opinion and whatever people feel about Giggs if he was still around I think one of our problems would not be feeling that the squad had gone stale.
However with regards to our striking options as I said above I personally favour “clean skins” over players who have had a chance. Okay, we can debate whether 3 - 5 caps is a valid “chance” but I think most would agree we’ve probably not seen enough from Harris and Bradshaw in that time. Harris a decent cameo running channels against Belarus but we need to unearth a goalscorer and that he is not. Bradshaw, good movement Vs Ukraine, there was something there but obviously nothing since.
Then you have Mullin, an unknown quantity and possibly a dangerous one that may suck up valuable time on a wasted endeavour. What goes in his favour is he knows very very well where the net is…just at a lower level than we’d like. But based on his performances against Coventry and Sheffield United and the fact the others above have already had something of a chance means I’d like to see Mullin involved first and foremost.
But yeah, we should be calling up all 3 of Mullin, Bradshaw and Collins at the expense of Harris, Bale (already gone so no issue there) and A.N Other.
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Post by talyfan on Feb 19, 2023 20:17:45 GMT
To be fair Bradshaw hasn't been given much of a chance really in all fairness. Yes although hes has 3 caps he's not started a game or played more than 45 minutes in each instance when coming off the bench. Think it would a be a fair assessment after starting the game and playing 90 minutes or a good portion of the match.
I know seeing them training and the like is important too and might be a contributing factor as to why he didn't start more when called upon.
I think at this moment at time, I don't think it would be wrong of me to say that the young players we have emerging at the moment are good enough yet to start when needed and be relied upon or even for them to get minutes with an eye to the future.
The likes of Bradshaw and Mullin could well be useful stopgaps until younger lads find their feet a bit or until other players emerge from the fold.
If we're losing and Brennan Johnson or Moore pulled up in a game and we're turning to the bench with the likes of Mark Harris, Tyler Roberts or Rubin Colwill sitting there as options to lead the line to get us a goal we're knackered really plain and simple.
Don't know what you'd get out of Bradshaw and Mullin really but they've got higher odds of scoring than those guys at the moment and they can do the exact same as them if they were playing up top. It's a no brainer in my opinion.
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Post by cadno on Feb 19, 2023 20:20:19 GMT
A handful of opportunities from the bench has been extremely harsh on Bradshaw over the years, I think without Bale and now Allen we’ve dropped to Scotland, Ireland and Northern Ireland’s level, possibly below a couple now … like Scotland with Dykes or Northern Ireland with David Healy or Will Grigg, we need to look at the likes of Bradshaw and Mullin more than ever…. To make it out like Bradshaw doesn’t know where the back of the net is is silly, he’s an accomplished finisher in a side that doesn’t create loads for him… his overall game as number 9 is very good, works hard for the team. Put him in a side with a bit more quality and I think he’ll thrive on the intl stage with Rambo, Moore, Brennan etc creating the opportunities!
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Post by surge on Feb 19, 2023 21:12:37 GMT
We were largely ahead of the curve from 2012 onwards with now many pundits now highlighting importance of focal point and managers calling for these players to be developed again after what appeared to be recent obsession with false 9's, but think in longer run Page is being challenged with finding the next innovation/re-innovation due to smaller stature of Welsh footballers in general.
Moore and Bradshaw (quotes from Rowett in this thread really encouraging) probably enough to get us through the next campaign but another area of the pitch which sees real opportunity for younger players coming up behind them.
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Post by insertname on Feb 19, 2023 21:16:10 GMT
It’s not that he doesn’t know where the back of the net is, moreso asking the question of who is more confident in front of goal? The guy who has been hitting 30 odd goals consistently the last three seasons or the guy who scores sporadically but plays at a higher level? It’s easy to say Bradshaw would score bucketloads in the conference- the same was said about Harris until it was pointed out that he scored nowt on loan to Wrexham. However we do know Mullin can score against Championship opposition and give championship quality defences nightmares.
Me personally I’d say that if we had a one v one, out of the up and coming options, I’d probably want it to fall to Mullin right now because he’s clearly in the vibe at the moment, scoring at league level and against Championship defences. The bloke is in the form of his life. The form of Bradshaw’s life, statistically, was last Christmas. This season he’s got 10 goals but against only 5 opponents having played most of the season which suggests he’s probably missed a fair few chances in those other games
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Post by cadno on Feb 19, 2023 21:37:57 GMT
Yes Mullin's in good form, it's encouraging that he played well against Champ opposition, 2 goals from the spot (1 missed) and 1 from open play... he's worth a punt for sure.
How you can use Mark Harris as an example to suggest Tom Bradshaw wouldn't score in non league is beyond me, Bradshaw's clearly better than Harris in front of goal.
10 goals in a side that hasn't given him much in terms of good service, works his bollocks off, runs the channels, brings others into play... look at his goals vs Sheffield United, all good finishes in their own way.
Fair enough I take your point, Mullin is confident atm, I reckon Bradshaw's pretty confident as well after 2 hat tricks in the Champ this season... give both a call up, if we need a goal they're good options to have. I'd like to see them given a run of games too, not 90 minutes or a sub appearance and then nothing again after that.
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Post by insertname on Feb 19, 2023 23:31:14 GMT
I’m not saying Bradshaw wouldn’t because Harris didn’t but rather there are just no guarantees that just because the level is weaker that the player will find it easier to increase their frequency of goals.
And that’s where our arguments join up- there are disagreements over who is most deserving of a chance but it seems pretty much everyone agrees that the players mentioned should be involved.
As I said upthread we at least have one guaranteed space in the squad with Bale retiring so there is no excuse not to try at least one new player (well, Bradshaw isn’t “new” but is new to Page’s setup). Harris really should be dropping out too to give someone a chance in my view.
As I’ve always said though, despite the encouraging noise about Mullin and documentation for me the likelihood is more of the same or maybe a young unknown like Jack Vale getting a chance. I just don’t see Page shifting away from his seemingly established policy of only introducing players 25 and younger to the squad. We all see the need for someone, anyone, scoring goals but does Page see it that way?
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Post by cadno on Feb 19, 2023 23:48:59 GMT
I agree. His job is to get us to Germany, the FAW policy of youth needs to be forgotten now, pick players on merit and get us winning football games. We have 1 win in our last 11 or something rubbish like that, performances at the WC were terrible. It’s a big test for Page now that we’ve lost Bale and Allen.
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Post by underwood on Feb 21, 2023 20:02:45 GMT
Benched!
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Post by jimexotic on Feb 21, 2023 20:08:12 GMT
What the hell, he must have a knock or something, that's insane otherwise
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Post by insertname on Feb 21, 2023 20:38:07 GMT
That’s why I don’t really buy the comments from Rowett about how he’s in the team for his all round game- he’s historically been in and out of the Millwall team at the drop of a hat when the goals have dried up (albeit seems to have played a bit more consistently this season).
So naturally, he scores a hat trick and is benched…
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Post by insertname on Feb 21, 2023 20:58:46 GMT
Saying that I just noticed they are playing Burnley so perhaps he was dropped to provide more cover in midfield (injury notwithstanding…)
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Post by jimexotic on Feb 21, 2023 21:28:44 GMT
Not the first Welshman to be dropped by his club after scoring a hat-trick
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Post by jimexotic on Feb 21, 2023 21:30:29 GMT
Aaaaand he scores!!!
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Post by insertname on Feb 21, 2023 21:33:58 GMT
Not the first Welshman to be dropped by his club after scoring a hat-trick Are you referring to Bale? Otherwise something in my mind is saying it could be Earnshaw, dropped by Robson after scoring a Premiership hat trick for West Brom… |
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Post by jimexotic on Feb 21, 2023 21:37:07 GMT
Ian Rush at Juve, Earnie at West Brom, not sure if Bale did too?
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Post by insertname on Feb 21, 2023 22:02:57 GMT
Ah I was right 🙂 Didn’t know that poor old Rushy got the same treatment too!
Given how Bale was treated by Madrid it probably happened to him
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Post by cadno on Feb 21, 2023 23:52:21 GMT
On fire!
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Post by jimexotic on Feb 22, 2023 0:20:29 GMT
7 goals in 8 league games in 2023, if he keeps anything like this up he's got to be making the squad.
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Post by welwyn on Feb 22, 2023 8:01:42 GMT
Bradshaw, Mullin & Collins should all be joining Brennan and Moore as the forward players in the squad.
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