|
|
Post by bale-droed on Sept 22, 2010 14:18:47 GMT
players gained -- andy dorman
players we could've gained -- ryan shawcross (wanker)
player we could lose
ribeiro (lived in england since 4)
rhys taylor (lived in england since 1)
lee mcardle -- (lived in england since 1) who is a huge prospect i was once told on the ds board.
is that everyone covered? or is there any more we could lose?
also anyone else having second thoughts about this rule? despite the fact we didnt gain shawcross because he is an arse and we could lose mcardle if he is shit hot i am all still for this rule.
|
|
|
|
Post by cymroircarn on Sept 22, 2010 14:23:37 GMT
Ryan Giggs?
|
|
|
|
Post by saints19 on Sept 22, 2010 14:58:40 GMT
I'm not really in favour of it, but at least it has some logic behind it unlike the citizenship rule where you get players like Eduardo and Roger Guerreiro who have very tenuous connections with the countries they represent.
|
|
|
|
Post by georgetm1 on Sept 22, 2010 15:03:34 GMT
Michael Owen went to Hawarden High School, he could have played for us under the new rules. Also ex Tottenham Chris Armstrong always wanted to play for us as he grew up in North Wales.
|
|
|
|
Post by youngdragon on Sept 22, 2010 15:09:14 GMT
ribieiro i am told also qualifies for portugal through his father?
i dont know weather thats true but would incraese chance of him being snatched
|
|
|
|
Post by saints19 on Sept 22, 2010 15:19:34 GMT
With a name like Ribeiro he'd probably have some Portuguese in him. But he's not realistically going to be snatched by thm, in fact I'd be surprised if their FA even knows who he is.
|
|
|
|
Post by bale-droed on Sept 22, 2010 15:46:02 GMT
ribeiro born in wales to a welsh mother - portugese father - raised in england
|
|
|
|
Post by flynnfan on Sept 22, 2010 16:24:09 GMT
We won't lose Ribeiro- he's a real Flynn favourite too. I'd expect him to be in the next squad.
I don't know for certain, but Tom Bradshaws wiki entry says he was born Shrewsbury, raised Twywn. Maybe all his family are Welsh born but it could be that he only qualifies via the school rule.
I like the rule- It makes total sense to me- there will be other Chris Armstrong type situations in future years (wanted to play for Wales where he was raised, but couldn't, and had to settle for a place on Englands bench a couple of times instead) that we will benefit from.
|
|
|
|
Post by llannerch on Sept 22, 2010 17:45:29 GMT
It's a spurious rule that undermines our claims of footballing independence and in the longer run will see us lose more players to England than we gain.
Just because technically under the ruling Owen would have qualified for Wales, he would still have opted for England so in no way retrospectively justifies the rule
|
|
|
|
Post by youngdragon on Sept 22, 2010 17:53:18 GMT
true i doubt either england or portugal will poach ribeiro
stupid question but is he any relation to jorge ribeiro who plays for portugal and one of the portugeeze sides?
the only big name player who would have changed would have been shawcross
and even that would have been unpopular
|
|
|
|
Post by evsbech on Sept 22, 2010 19:46:38 GMT
Flynnfan is correct in saying Tom Bradshaw qualifies through the schooling rule. Mother and father are English and he was born in Shrewsbury but moved to Tywyn when he was very young and had all his shooling in Tywyn and I believe he can speak Welsh as he came up through Welsh stream.
|
|
|
|
Post by llannerch on Sept 22, 2010 19:57:05 GMT
Flynnfan is correct in saying Tom Bradshaw qualifies through the schooling rule. Mother and father are English and he was born in Shrewsbury but moved to Tywyn when he was very young and had all his shooling in Tywyn and I believe he can speak Welsh as he came up through Welsh stream. All well and good, but he should only be able to play for England |
|
|
|
Post by flynnfan on Sept 22, 2010 20:21:22 GMT
Even if he's a Welsh speaker he should only be able to play for England?! bollocks llannerch.
|
|
|
|
Post by georgetm1 on Sept 22, 2010 20:30:46 GMT
If someones lived in Wales long enough and see's themself as Welsh, why should'nt they play for us. I dont see any problem at all, it is'nt like we have a huge pool to choose from anyway. Why be elitist about it?
|
|
|
|
Post by llannerch on Sept 22, 2010 21:43:42 GMT
Even if he's a Welsh speaker he should only be able to play for England?! bollocks llannerch. And if I learn French that makes me French? |
|
|
|
Post by llannerch on Sept 22, 2010 21:53:08 GMT
If someones lived in Wales long enough and see's themself as Welsh, why should'nt they play for us. I dont see any problem at all, it is'nt like we have a huge pool to choose from anyway. Why be elitist about it? You make it sound like international football is more about convenience than birthright. It's the thin end of the wedge and will erode our footballing sovereignty. Or are you so desperate that a team made up of non-Welsh people in the shirt will do? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2010 22:18:56 GMT
In other news and slightly OT, Zinedine Zidanes son is on the verge of a call up to Spains under 21s. I guess he must have been born in Spain but does family heritage count for nothing these days? Am I the only person that cares more about where my family is from than where I was born?
|
|
|
|
Post by cardibach on Sept 22, 2010 22:38:38 GMT
Learning the language is not what it's about, but if you live in France for most of your life, why couldn't you be eligible for France?
Going with your analogy, if I learn Portugese, would I be eligible for Portugal, Brazil or even the Cape Verde Islands!
|
|
|
|
Post by bale-droed on Sept 22, 2010 23:53:16 GMT
tom bradshaw i knew there would be one i forgott, anymore lads?
and if someone lives in wales since 1,2,3,4 goes thru school as a welsh student and then considers himself welsh how the heck is that no acceptable then?
|
|
|
|
Post by saints19 on Sept 23, 2010 1:08:27 GMT
I think most people would accept that someone who has lived here from he time he was in nappies is qualified to play for us. The problem with this ruling is that it stipulates 5 years of compulsory education, which could be from 11 to 16.* That would be much more of a grey area in my opinion. Frankly, as I've said, the citizenship rule is too often flouted with very dubious examples like Eduardo. We should tighten that sort of thing up I think.
Edit note: At least I think it's 5 years. Too lazy to look it up now, if I'm wrong someone will correct me.
|
|
|
|
Post by georgetm1 on Sept 23, 2010 8:02:21 GMT
Ok then Llanerch why dont we kick out Earnshaw, Church, Vokes, Collison, Nyatanga, Rickets,Myhill, Williams etc because they were'nt born or educated here. I think having a Welsh grandparent is more of a dubious tie to Wales than someone who has lived and been brought up here most of their life no matter where they were born. I think we should take any chance of getting a decent player who wants to wear the red shirt. But i dont agree with fast-tracking citizenships like they do in Croatia and Poland. We wont lose our sovereignty as a footballing nation because we have been poaching English born players for years.
|
|
|
|
Post by matty on Sept 23, 2010 12:31:54 GMT
Even if he's a Welsh speaker he should only be able to play for England?! bollocks llannerch. And if I learn French that makes me French? What makes you Welsh? Where you were born? Where your parents were born? I wasn't around when my parents were born, I can't remember the day I was born, so it is possible that my mum could turn around today and say "matty, me and your father are English, and you were born in Bristol". That shouldn't make a difference because I've been brought up as Welsh, brought up in Wales, schooled in Wales and feel Welsh. There has to be rules though, and I think Dorman's situation is the best example....no Welsh blood but he feels Welsh. Having spent 90% of his life in the country I think that is more than acceptable. |
|
|
|
Post by flynnfan on Sept 23, 2010 12:45:24 GMT
I find it strange that people would have a problem with anyone raised and educated in Wales playing football for Wales, when someone like Sam Vokes plays for us without even knowing until he was around 17 that he had a Welsh born Grandfather!
French is different llanerch. Welsh is only really useful if you live in certain parts of Wales, hence you are only going to speak it if you have Welsh family OR if you are from those certain parts of Wales. I mean, anyone who isn't living in Wales and doesn't have Welsh family but learns to speak Welsh is proabably more likely to become a translator or a brain surgeon than a professional footballer anyway I'd have thought...
I have friends who have been Wales fans for years and consider themselves Welsh who only now qualify thanks to the school rule. One was born in England of Irish/English family, moved to N Wales as a toddler, went to Wales games at the racecourse growing up, goes to most away games now. Should he have been forced to play for England or Ireland?
Another was raised in Powys, but born in Shropshire as was his Dad and his Dads dad (nearest maternity hospital you see) Mum's Anglo-Irish. So despite living in Wales his whole life you don't think he should have been allowed to play for Wales either llanerch?
And these are lads that actually go to Wales games!!
|
|
|
|
Post by youngdragon on Sept 23, 2010 13:19:51 GMT
langauge has nothing to do with it
how many of our regular players actaully speak welsh as a first (or second language)
i dont think toshack or sparky were fluent, can anybody off hand tell me our last welsh speaking manager?
i dont know the answer myself but it would be nice to know
|
|
|
|
Post by saints19 on Sept 23, 2010 15:28:17 GMT
Thinking not just about Wales but about other countries, I don't really like the schooling rule because your family could be from Africa and go to a rich country like the USA when you're 10 and you end up playing for the USA without any real connection with them.
Parentage in my view is a legitamate qualification. Not sure about grandparents.
|
|
|
|
Post by flynnfan on Sept 23, 2010 17:11:33 GMT
The thing is, people like Guerrero and Olisadebe have had Polish citezenship rushed through. Neither have any real connection with the country - they just ent there to play football. For money, basically. And as for yr scenario re usa saints- I think thats similar to what happened with Freddy Adu (btw- what happened to him? wasn't he playing pro football at 14 or something? )
So it already happens. We are at a disadvantage because we can't make anyone a 'welsh citizen' , so rules like the school rule are really needed to try try and redress the balance in a way. Plus, it makes total sense.
|
|
|
|
Post by llannerch on Sept 23, 2010 18:05:30 GMT
And if I learn French that makes me French? What makes you Welsh? Where you were born? Where your parents were born? I wasn't around when my parents were born, I can't remember the day I was born, so it is possible that my mum could turn around today and say "matty, me and your father are English, and you were born in Bristol". That shouldn't make a difference because I've been brought up as Welsh, brought up in Wales, schooled in Wales and feel Welsh. There has to be rules though, and I think Dorman's situation is the best example....no Welsh blood but he feels Welsh. Having spent 90% of his life in the country I think that is more than acceptable. If someone feels Welsh, learns Welsh, wants to live in Wales, start a family in Wales, appreciates Welsh culture and so on, great. Brilliant. They are more than welcome to pin their colours to the mast...if we're talking about broader civil society in Wales....but we're not. We're talking international football. If soem one can play for Wales because they say they feel Welsh then what we are creating is a Wales Invitational XI rather than the Wales national XI |
|
|
|
Post by llannerch on Sept 23, 2010 18:19:47 GMT
Ok then Llanerch why dont we kick out Earnshaw, Church, Vokes, Collison, Nyatanga, Rickets,Myhill, Williams etc because they were'nt born or educated here. Nyatanga, Williams and Collison have all spoken of how aware they are of their Welsh roots and I have no problem in the offspring of Welsh migrants qualifying to play for the Wales national team. I might one day have children who are born and raised outside of Wales - say, England - but they will be damn well aware of their family heritage, the langauge and cultural roots. That they would qualify to play international football for England based on schooling would not make them English. |
|
|
|
Post by matty on Sept 23, 2010 19:14:03 GMT
What makes you Welsh? Where you were born? Where your parents were born? I wasn't around when my parents were born, I can't remember the day I was born, so it is possible that my mum could turn around today and say "matty, me and your father are English, and you were born in Bristol". That shouldn't make a difference because I've been brought up as Welsh, brought up in Wales, schooled in Wales and feel Welsh. There has to be rules though, and I think Dorman's situation is the best example....no Welsh blood but he feels Welsh. Having spent 90% of his life in the country I think that is more than acceptable. If someone feels Welsh, learns Welsh, wants to live in Wales, start a family in Wales, appreciates Welsh culture and so on, great. Brilliant. They are more than welcome to pin their colours to the mast...if we're talking about broader civil society in Wales....but we're not. We're talking international football. If soem one can play for Wales because they say they feel Welsh then what we are creating is a Wales Invitational XI rather than the Wales national XI So Dorman "welsh speaker, brought up as Welsh" can get lost, whereas Church "I have a Welsh grandparent? Tidy" can be welcomed aboad. That is not right. In the long run this schooling rule will probably lose us the next Giggs, and we'll be rueing the fact most of us were all for this rule, but in the meantime I think it seems fair. |
|
|
|
Post by saints19 on Sept 23, 2010 22:29:43 GMT
Dorman speaks Welsh? cool. I like him even more, now.
|
|
