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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 21:24:32 GMT
Did the Belgian FA lose sposorship deals when they picked Mboyo? (maybe they did- this is a genuine enquiry, and if any of the Belgians who were on here last year can tell us more, I'd be interested to know. Merci) Tried to find some stats on how many caps hes won- he can't be an integral part of their squad given he quality they have to pick from these days. Couldn't find a player profile but found this interesting article where West Ham canvassed the opinions off their fans about signing him- needless to say you can guess that it drew negative press! www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/05/ilombe-mboyo-west-ham_n_3706527.htmlTo be honest, given how sensationalist our media our I imagine that it could be a different case for Belgium than for us. We would be in the news big time if we did this. Also the report from the Daily Heil, which features a comment by a rep ffrom the Belgian FA. www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2384745/West-Ham-United-drop-bid-convicted-rapist-Ilombe-Mboyo-fans-backlash-Twitter.html |
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Sam Vokes
Aug 27, 2013 10:39:33 GMT
via mobile
Post by squatter1 on Aug 27, 2013 10:39:33 GMT
But you say it yourself - he should be free to continue his career. If anything, reintegrating a convicted criminal into a national squad shows intellectual maturity in a society. Yeah, but it's not a given that a released criminal should regain all the luxuries of their previous existence. For example, should a convicted paedophile be allowed to run a scout club or teach primary school upon release? |
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Post by flynnfan on Aug 27, 2013 11:34:39 GMT
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Post by Tim P on Aug 27, 2013 15:50:52 GMT
But you say it yourself - he should be free to continue his career. If anything, reintegrating a convicted criminal into a national squad shows intellectual maturity in a society. Yeah, but it's not a given that a released criminal should regain all the luxuries of their previous existence. For example, should a convicted paedophile be allowed to run a scout club or teach primary school upon release? Come on, that's an absurd comparison. |
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Post by squatter1 on Aug 27, 2013 16:05:46 GMT
It's not a comparison, it's an example to prove a point: the point being that it's not as simple as a criminal who has served their sentence should on release automatically be completely reintegrated to society without any limitations. My original point being: accepting Ched Evans back to the national squad IS an ethical dilemma.
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Post by Tim P on Aug 27, 2013 17:06:48 GMT
It's not a comparison, it's an example to prove a point: the point being that it's not as simple as a criminal who has served their sentence should on release automatically be completely reintegrated to society without any limitations. My original point being: accepting Ched Evans back to the national squad IS an ethical dilemma. Ok, fair enough. But what does being a convicted rapist have to do with being allowed to play international sport. If we was a plumber, he would be allowed to work as a plumber. What's the difference? I mean ethically rather than what the gutter media might say. |
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Post by flynnfan on Aug 27, 2013 21:20:25 GMT
If Ched Evans finds form, then he should be called up- it's as simple as that. When the shit starts to fly, the FAW and our manager should use exactly the same arguments the Belgians used when they called up Mboyo.
I don't care if the daily Mail don't like it. In fact, I'd like the daily Mail to not like us.
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Post by llannerch on Aug 28, 2013 11:40:27 GMT
He'd have to find a club first. Then get fit. Then start scoring at a decent enough level. Lots of ifs and buts before he is considered for us.
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Post by flynnfan on Aug 28, 2013 12:36:20 GMT
He'd have to find a club first. Then get fit. Then start scoring at a decent enough level. Lots of ifs and buts before he is considered for us. True. This debate is obvioulsy way ahead of itself, but I expect us to return to it within two years. It's entirely possibly that he will come out of prison a BETTER player, especially if he uses his anger as fuel for his football. And if our other strikers continue to underwhelm as they have been.... |
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Post by squatter1 on Aug 28, 2013 14:40:52 GMT
It's not a comparison, it's an example to prove a point: the point being that it's not as simple as a criminal who has served their sentence should on release automatically be completely reintegrated to society without any limitations. My original point being: accepting Ched Evans back to the national squad IS an ethical dilemma. Ok, fair enough. But what does being a convicted rapist have to do with being allowed to play international sport. If we was a plumber, he would be allowed to work as a plumber. What's the difference? I mean ethically rather than what the gutter media might say. A plumber doesn't represent his country around the world, an international footballer does. Belgium can do what they want, but the behaviour Evans has been convicted for means for me I'd rather he didn't represent us around the world. Whatever, the chances of him reaching a level where he'd benefit our squad after his release are slim at best. |
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Post by texan on Aug 28, 2013 15:50:07 GMT
A plumber doesn't represent his country around the world. Nor can they be found on posters in kids' bedrooms, their behaviour/styles scrutinized and get put on pedestals as icons and 'heroes' by millions of the world's youth who aspire to be just like them...apart from a couple of Italian ones from Brooklyn...apparently! |
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Post by Tim P on Aug 28, 2013 19:50:23 GMT
A plumber doesn't represent his country around the world. Nor can they be found on posters in kids' bedrooms, their behaviour/styles scrutinized and get put on pedestals as icons and 'heroes' by millions of the world's youth who aspire to be just like them...apart from a couple of Italian ones from Brooklyn...apparently! Come on. My footballing hero was Maradona but I don't recall ever wanting to ape his off field behaviour. Don't buy into the classist and racist anti-footballer narrative that the gutter, and increasingly also broadsheet, media want you to accept as truth. The crime that Evans has been convicted of is terrible; however a civilised society views prison as being about rehabilitation rather than permanent exclusion. |
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Post by texan on Aug 28, 2013 22:35:46 GMT
You are correct in what you're saying, and yes I agree, in the cold light of day once a sentence is complete that person should be allowed to re-enter society and get on with their lives. However as Squatter suggests, life is rarely that black and white, and in some instances (where an abuse of trust has taken place or a high-profile position makes it unethical/untenable) it can be nigh-on impossible for a former offender to simply slot back into their previous career and carry on regardless. Those found guilty of Evans' crime are rarely, if ever, accepted back into society in the same way as someone found guilty of other crimes such as robbery or theft. It carries with it a massive social stigma, which will only be multiplied a hundred-fold when you account for Evans' previous high-profile career.
If on release he finds a club willing to take him on and is able to once again make a living from football he'll be a very, very lucky lad. If by some miracle he was also able to find some form and be in with a shout for selection by Wales, the FAW would face a massive ethical dilemma, personally I don't think they'd ever dare take the risk...they're hardly raking in the fans as they are!
However with regards to kids being influenced, its not a case of buying into anything spewed out by the British press. Common sense dictates that a footballer is going to have a hell of a lot more influence over his legions of young followers than a tradesman. I just found that comparison nonsensical. Like it or not many young players do take their cues from the young professionals at the top of the game (on and off the pitch), their influence does filter down, not necessarily in like-for-like aping, but in attitude most definitely.
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Post by flynnfan on Aug 28, 2013 22:57:28 GMT
You are correct in what you're saying, and yes I agree, in the cold light of day once a sentence is complete that person should be allowed to re-enter society and get on with their lives. However as Squatter suggests, life is rarely that black and white, and in some instances (where an abuse of trust has taken place or a high-profile position makes it unethical/untenable) it can be nigh-on impossible for a former offender to simply slot back into their previous career and carry on regardless. Those found guilty of Evans' crime are rarely, if ever, accepted back into society in the same way as someone found guilty of other crimes such as robbery or theft. It carries with it a massive social stigma, which will only be multiplied a hundred-fold when you account for Evans' previous high-profile career. If on release he finds a club willing to take him on and is able to once again make a living from football he'll be a very, very lucky lad. If by some miracle he was also able to find some form and be in with a shout for selection by Wales, the FAW would face a massive ethical dilemma, personally I don't think they'd ever dare take the risk...they're hardly raking in the fans as they are! However with regards to kids being influenced, its not a case of buying into anything spewed out by the British press. Common sense dictates that a footballer is going to have a hell of a lot more influence over his legions of young followers than a tradesman. I just found that comparison nonsensical. Like it or not many young players do take their cues from the young professionals at the top of the game (on and off the pitch), their influence does filter down, not necessarily in like-for-like aping, but in attitude most definitely. Yes, fine, all very well. But still, no-one has been able to explain to me what is so different about Belgium? Is it just that they don't have the Daily Mail there? |
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Post by abwales on Aug 28, 2013 22:59:13 GMT
He won't have any problem finding a club and if he plays well enough we'll call him up.
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Post by texan on Aug 28, 2013 23:59:11 GMT
Yes, fine, all very well. But still, no-one has been able to explain to me what is so different about Belgium? Is it just that they don't have the Daily Mail there? I'd suggest the reason he was able to make his way back so far into the game after being released was that the crime was committed whilst a minor aged 16 and thus he wasn't a pro, so most people probably hadn't heard of him. Quite possibly his reappearance in the Belgian game went unnoticed apart from those who reintroduced him into it. However from what I've read the Belgian public hardly welcomed the news of his recent selection with open arms, rather their FA had to fight off some fierce criticism. He won't have any problem finding a club and if he plays well enough we'll call him up. I wouldn't be so sure of that. Taking the above player as an example, Mboyo's criminal history as a minor was still enough to have West Ham's fans up in arms and forced the club to back away from him. Clubs in this day and age take their image very seriously, it influences almost every decision they take and can have a drastic impact on their revenue if they get it wrong. If an English club thought a punt on a little-known Belgian convicted of rape 10 years earlier was too great a risk, I doubt any would be any more prepared to take that risk on Evans, who's past is only too fresh in the public's minds. I'm not saying I'm wholly against Evans playing for Wales again, but the reality is that he's not simply going to pick up where he left off, his road back into the game is going to be one hell of a lot harder than many people think...if in fact he's given a road at all. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2013 0:52:37 GMT
I'm not saying I'm wholly against Evans playing for Wales again, but the reality is that he's not simply going to pick up where he left off, his road back into the game is going to be one hell of a lot harder than many people think...if in fact he's given a road at all. Yep, I think you are all underestimating the strength of feeling about the crime of rape in this country. Imo Ched will struggle to get a club at any decent level, there is a certain stigma attached to rape that transcends even murder. It seems ridiculous to me, as if Lee Hughes can find a club then anyone else should be able to, but I for one am expecting some pretty vocal lobbying when Ched is released and the sort of press that will follow him round will preclude him from signing for anyone in the UK at least. Perhaps he should give Mboyo's club a call! |
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Post by flynnfan on Aug 29, 2013 10:30:22 GMT
Perhaps he should give Mboyo's club a call!
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Well, I can't see it happening because Evans doens't seems very worldly, but yeah, he should seriously consider going abroad to try and resume his career upon his release. He might have to.
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Post by Tim P on Aug 29, 2013 10:45:01 GMT
You are correct in what you're saying, and yes I agree, in the cold light of day once a sentence is complete that person should be allowed to re-enter society and get on with their lives. However as Squatter suggests, life is rarely that black and white, and in some instances (where an abuse of trust has taken place or a high-profile position makes it unethical/untenable) it can be nigh-on impossible for a former offender to simply slot back into their previous career and carry on regardless. Those found guilty of Evans' crime are rarely, if ever, accepted back into society in the same way as someone found guilty of other crimes such as robbery or theft. It carries with it a massive social stigma, which will only be multiplied a hundred-fold when you account for Evans' previous high-profile career. If on release he finds a club willing to take him on and is able to once again make a living from football he'll be a very, very lucky lad. If by some miracle he was also able to find some form and be in with a shout for selection by Wales, the FAW would face a massive ethical dilemma, personally I don't think they'd ever dare take the risk...they're hardly raking in the fans as they are! However with regards to kids being influenced, its not a case of buying into anything spewed out by the British press. Common sense dictates that a footballer is going to have a hell of a lot more influence over his legions of young followers than a tradesman. I just found that comparison nonsensical. Like it or not many young players do take their cues from the young professionals at the top of the game (on and off the pitch), their influence does filter down, not necessarily in like-for-like aping, but in attitude most definitely. Yep, fair enough - a lot of good points. I feel like it's up to parents to be role models and give guidance, rather than use footballers as a very convenient excuse for pretty much all of the world's ills. But I take your point that many kids will be influenced to a degree. I think it's up to the FAW to be big enough to handle the criticism; remember it's only Wales after all, the gutter press will have forgotten about it a week later should he be called up. They'll bring it up again when we qualify for the Euros, then it'll subside the next day. Personally, I don't see why anyone in Wales should be fussed with what english newspapers think - it's kind of irrelevant. |
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Post by saints19 on Aug 29, 2013 17:19:22 GMT
flynnfan, the problem isn't the Daily Mail, it's the Sun. The DM's readership is tiny compared to the Sun. Though of course they both have the same owner, Rupert Murdoch. Basically Murdoch just has to open his eighty year old mouth and half the world's press speaks with him.
I agree that to re-cap Ched would be a massive PR risk for the FAW, even though as far as I can see what he did was no different to what many very drunk men have done on a stupid night out. It's morally wrong, and legally rape, but not really worthy of such a harsh sentence in my view. In the unlikely event that Ched goes back into football, gets back up to a respectable level, and works his way back into contention for a place in the squad, the FAW had better do it in a busy news week. Murdoch is a sly b@st@rd, who is happy to go along with accepted political doctrine as long as it benefits him. By appearing nice and respectable it enables him to get his anti-worker crap more widely accepted, which I believe is basically Murdoch's true goal. He'd love nothing more than a chance to slaughter someone like Ched through his papers, because it makes him look good.
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Post by llannerch on Aug 30, 2013 11:42:59 GMT
I find it slightly insulting that the 'public opinion' about Ched Evans is being boiled down to 'News Corp readership's' opinion
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Post by flynnfan on Aug 30, 2013 15:13:25 GMT
I find it slightly insulting that the 'public opinion' about Ched Evans is being boiled down to 'News Corp readership's' opinion Care to expand on this llannerch? |
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Post by welshwizard79 on Aug 31, 2013 14:43:15 GMT
Vokes just scored again
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Post by flynnfan on Sept 21, 2013 20:43:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2013 21:10:30 GMT
Spot on Flynny. Shall be further Coleman headache who'll he put in when Macedonia comes around with Steve Morison fit again. Got his 1st of season Tuesday night against Blackpool. |
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Sam Vokes
Sept 22, 2013 10:44:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2013 10:44:00 GMT
Look how well Morison did at championship level before- never quite made it at international level. So I'm not convinced by Vokes scoring semi-regularly as he still looks like a poor option at international level.
I don't think we have a striker available that is fit for international football and it worries me because without one on the horizon we need to find one with some spurious Welsh connection and there seems to be nothing doing on that front. How long can we go on for without a world class forward? It's like life is paying us back for having Rush Hughes and Saunders all in the same era!
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Post by yanto on Sept 22, 2013 11:22:31 GMT
vokes looked well out his depth in recent games - a bit embarrassing IMO. lets just play a system that does not rely on 1 striker or let bale fill the role
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Post by squatter1 on Sept 22, 2013 15:11:52 GMT
vokes looked well out his depth in recent games - a bit embarrassing IMO. lets just play a system that does not rely on 1 striker or let bale fill the role Ridiculously harsh. Vokes was decent in the game against Serbia, performed as well as most. Vokes could yet prove premier class. He's had tons of injuries - this season is big for him. |
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Post by flynnfan on Sept 25, 2013 12:45:36 GMT
'Another 90 minutes of bullying an opposition defence for little personal reward, but immense use to the team'
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'Great hold up play and bullied them non-stop'
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There's a couple of comments about Vokes performance last night for Burnley on one of their message boards.. I don't think Vokes will ever be a prolific goalscorer, but there's more to his game than that. Another comment I heard this week is that Vokes and Ings for Burnley resemble Toshack and Keegan a wee bit... Toshack only got 12 goals for Wales (in 40 games) I reckon Vokes will score more.
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Post by flynnfan on Sept 25, 2013 13:15:05 GMT
Here'S another one, from the weekend:
'Vokes 10 - I dont give a 10 lightly, but that was the complete target man performance. Bullied the Leeds defence, ran down the keeper, held play up, showed a fantastic first touch throughout, and, what about that header? He got such power and direction behind it that it forced Kenny to parry, and there he was following up to slam it in - just like a proper centre forward should do. Need to get his contract extended pronto, he is the lynchpin of this team'
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