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Post by scoop76 on Jun 20, 2010 13:25:44 GMT
Glad not to be in South Africa? No way, I'd love to watch Wales in a World Cup, no matter where it's played.
What do people make of Trevor Brooking's comments, that England might struggle for 2014 because of a lack of decent players between the ages of 17 and 22? No surprise to those of us who saw our lads give England Under 21s the runaround at Villa Park. But maybe we're in a better position than we think. Ramsey, Bale, Collison, Ledley, King... a great group of players coming through with quite a few caps already. Maybe with the right tactics and attitude, the next six years can be a successful period for Wales.
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Post by Tim P on Jun 20, 2010 15:21:08 GMT
chris coleman has just demonstrated exactly why he will never have any success as a top level manager.
launching into a pious rant about 'hating' seeing 'fellow professionals' 'simulating' cards in order to get players sent off, he is effectively showing how he is a man of the broadest strokes, managing with crayons whilst genuine winners like mourinho, benitez, fergusson, wenger, lippi and so on manage with the sharpest ballpoint pens. clown.
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Post by welsho on Jun 20, 2010 16:56:35 GMT
Yes. Was pretty horrified by Cookie's inane ramblings - I always thought he was pretty astute! Long live Flynny
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Post by Tim P on Jun 20, 2010 19:42:12 GMT
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Post by llannerch on Jun 20, 2010 20:55:42 GMT
His interview with Ryan Nelson tonight is funny. Short of asking for Ryan's autograph he's chuffed as guff for the Kiwis. |
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Post by marsvolta on Jun 20, 2010 21:42:33 GMT
anybody else notice cookie saying 'us' or 'we' when talking about england?
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Post by saints19 on Jun 21, 2010 13:15:30 GMT
chris coleman has just demonstrated exactly why he will never have any success as a top level manager. launching into a pious rant about 'hating' seeing 'fellow professionals' 'simulating' cards in order to get players sent off, he is effectively showing how he is a man of the broadest strokes, managing with crayons whilst genuine winners like mourinho, benitez, fergusson, wenger, lippi and so on manage with the sharpest ballpoint pens. clown. Trendy, are you basically trying to say that in order to win one has to be a cheating c*nt? That may be true at the moment, but there are things that can be done about that - punish offenders retrospectively, for example. I don't really think we should just shrug our shoulders and say cheating's part of the game. We'll never be able to get rid of it completely - some players will be too crafty - but we should do what we can, at least. Hopefully that will be enough to stop diving and simulation playing such a major role in the outcome of football matches. |
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Post by Tim P on Jun 21, 2010 13:30:08 GMT
for 'may be true at the moment', read 'has always been true'.
only in england is this frowned upon. nowhere else. the 'crafty' is celebrated across the footballing world, and always has been. indeed, even in saesland, the crafty devil was celebrated througout the 70s - be it the defender pulling the armpit hair of a forward, or the constantly diving rodney marsh or franny lee. it is only since the event of SKY - with it's incessant drive towards the non-footballing, affluent, aspirational middle-class demographic, that such 'disgraceful' behaviour has been frowned upon.
in conclusion: disgraceful? nah, discrace-fun.
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Post by saints19 on Jun 21, 2010 15:56:59 GMT
Things may be true at the moment which have always been true. Doesn't mean they always will be true, or always need to be true.
It was much easier to get away with diving and simulation in the past, when close-up, slow-motion TV replays did not show the whole thing again in all its dishonest detail.
We have seen some things in this world cup which frankly can only be described as disgraceful. Kaka was sent off last night (double yellow) for something which should have been a yellow card for his opponent for cheating. (in case you didn't see, he completely innocuously brushed an opponent with his sleeve without probably being aware of his presence; his opponent then collapsed to the ground holding his face, which had not been in any way affected.) Can you seriously say, that if Wales were on the end of such a decision, you would hold your hands up and applaud the actions of the offending player in the same way that you would have if he had scored a brilliant goal, and beaten us by pure ability? The fact is most people would react to cheating against them with disgust, regardless of whether they might also be 'nice one son' if it was one of their own team (though said with some lack of conviction and moral certainty). Following the rule 'do unto others as you would have done unto you', which seems to me to work pretty well for most societies, we can but condemn this cheating as immoral and disgraceful.
PS. I am not a fan of Sky. I despise them as Rupert Murdoch's media child, along with the Sun and, increasingly, the Times.
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Post by Tim P on Jun 21, 2010 16:07:55 GMT
'It was much easier to get away with diving and simulation in the past, when close-up, slow-motion TV replays did not show the whole thing again in all its dishonest detail.'
True. but fans and sports writers were fully aware of it - and loved it!
If Wales suffered from this? I'd be upset - that Wales had lost, and yes - it would hurt that we fell foul of gamesmanship. but i consider gamesmanship to be as much part of the game as on the ball skill, so ultimately my hurt would be equal in either eventuality.
'...to work pretty well for most societies'
but football doesnt, and certainly never should, reflect the attitudes of society. football is unscripted theatre, it is shakespearian in it's plots, action and characters.
i wonder, if the people who talk about the 'disgrace' and 'immorality' of diving/cheating, actually got what they wanted - what would we be left with? what would the next moral crusade be? gary neville is an obnoxious ass-hat, but would i want to see no more characters like him? no, absolutely not.
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Post by saints19 on Jun 21, 2010 16:40:35 GMT
'It was much easier to get away with diving and simulation in the past, when close-up, slow-motion TV replays did not show the whole thing again in all its dishonest detail.' True. but fans and sports writers were fully aware of it - and loved it! Loved it when their teams took advantage of it, hated it and resented it bitterly when it affected them adversely. I am afraid I simply cannot agree here. I would feel much better about having lost to a team which beat us because of ball skill or even brute strength/athletic ability than gamesmanship. If you want to put this to the test, we can do a quick poll of apostle members. You're talking about social attitudes, which I would regard as a different thing to morality and doing things in the right spirit. If anything, morality should be even more prevalent in sport. Sport is an idealistic world; people kick balls around a pitch to win a metal cup fashined in a certain way. It's totally impractical, and completely worthless in a utilitarian sense, but very powerful nonetheless. It is also influential, and as I said before when we had this argument on the dragonsoccer board, I feel we should encourage moral behaviour, because inevitably kids learn from their heroes, and people look up to the Ronaldos and Rooneys of this world. In fairness, it should be said that not all cheating is equal. Taking your point about football being an unscripted drama, I think I could forgive someone who instinctively, in the heat of the moment, handled the ball, a la Maradona, in a split-second call (although that sort of thing should still be punished in my view, in the same way as a unintentional trip results in a free kick). However, at present, we have players who get contact in a game, realise they have been caught, are clearly perfectly OK, and then consciously start falling over clutching their face, when really all their opponent did was breathe on them. This kind of deliberate cheating is simply totally unpalatable to me, and I cannot fathom how it could be defended, without seriously undermining the whole concept of having rules. Gary Neville is an obnoxious ass-hat. No arguments there. I don't see how that relates to this particular argument though, which is about cheating in general. For the record, I find Neville to be an ass-hat because he is a slave to his club's viewpoint in various newspaper columns, because he openly and shamelessly stirs up shit between United and Liverpool (without stating that it is merely harmless banter) and is generally an arrogant toerag. I don't see how that has anything to do with this argument though. What would we be left with? What would the next moral crusade be? All teams must wear either red or blue uniforms at all games, with the words 'one world order' and 'praise the supreme leader' on them, at all times, obviously. |
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Post by Tim P on Jun 21, 2010 16:51:34 GMT
saints - i think we both understand what each other's Idea is, but we are coming from different points of view; i see football as a form of, to rip-off a footie term, total-art, an unscripted drama for the masses. drama needs 'villains', 'good guys', and those who blur the lines between the two (i'm thinking zidane here). i accept your take on it too though. so, fair enough?
regarding neville; i fear that this drive to sanitse behaviour will ultimately lead to it becomming very difficult for 'characters' to exist in the game. and neville certainly is a 'character' - for better or worse.
in a funny way, i do like your orwellian take on the impending future of football. it seems like one that tosh would be broadly in favour of!
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Post by saints19 on Jun 22, 2010 14:08:53 GMT
I'm not entirely sure how the link has been made between a desire to end simulation and the sanitisation of character. Personally, I love to see players show emotion and eccentricity, and would be dismayed if that side of the game disappeared. I am merely arguing against blatant, deliberate cheating being tolerated.
And yeah, respect to you for having your point of view - nothing wrong with that, as long as we are able to debate it openly.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2010 13:15:27 GMT
Come on Slovenia.
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Post by Tim P on Jun 23, 2010 19:07:03 GMT
right, that's it: just heard, first hand, chris coleman say 'we'. maybe he was talking about Wales? doubt it. he is dead to me.
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Post by Tim P on Jun 23, 2010 19:15:58 GMT
I'm not entirely sure how the link has been made between a desire to end simulation and the sanitisation of character. i see it like this: SKY wants to sanitise the game in order to make more money - a tactic employed by the people who run american football and basketball. SKY encourages moral crusades against diving, gamesmanship, and players speaking out of line. this is manifested via SKY themselves, and their cronies in the media. SKY eliminates diving - what's next? it'll be handshakes before every game, tougher regulations on goal celebrations, ridiculous fines for players swearing etc. SKY sanitises the game - what's next? the crowd. |
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Post by marsvolta on Jun 23, 2010 20:30:02 GMT
i know coleman is employed by the english tv station but it does seem an incredible slip. surely he knows that this would annoy the welsh fans of the country that he would be a candidate to manage one day.his own country.
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Post by flynnfan on Jun 24, 2010 12:02:44 GMT
I haven't heard it, but I've got no reason to doubt what people are saying on here. I had a lot of respect for the way Coleman fought his way back from that car crash and the job he did as such a young manager at Fulham. Since he bailed out on Sociedad after only a few months and the first sign of trouble, that respect has slowly been draining away... referring to England as 'we' is a new low though.
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Post by Tim P on Jun 24, 2010 12:25:21 GMT
yeah, for me, and i know i must have mentioned it about twenty times on the old board, all of my respect for coleman as a 'serious football man' went out of the window after his behaviour at sociedad.
to hear him talking about england as 'us' (even though in his defence he might argue he meant 'british people'), just confirms that he cant stomach being a proper manager and just wants to do media work.
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Post by flynnfan on Jun 24, 2010 13:15:43 GMT
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Post by saints19 on Jun 24, 2010 13:23:38 GMT
to hear him talking about england as 'us' (even though in his defence he might argue he meant 'british people'), just confirms that he cant stomach being a proper manager and just wants to do media work. Or he could have made a mistake? Probably best not to judge people on what they say in TV studios, when they have to concentrate on what the other guys in the studio are saying at the same time as watching the cameras and listening to whatever is being fed into their earpieces. If Coleman had said that in a press conference or interview, then perhaps we could say it was his real view, but it's impossible to say that in this case. His 20+ caps for Wales in my view are adequate to say that he considers himself Welsh. |
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Post by saints19 on Jun 24, 2010 13:29:43 GMT
It wasn't that bad. England did what they had to do, it was never going to be a classic given what was at stake. It was much, much better than the Algeria-England game, and compared to other games in the World Cup so far I'd say it was OK. Honest analysis? Have these pundits actually got a clue about football? Were they really expecting a flawless performance yesterday? |
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Post by flynnfan on Jun 24, 2010 17:46:42 GMT
you're right saints19 - Dunphy (23 caps for Ireland), Whelan (won everything at Liverpool) and Giles (played for the great Leeds team of the 70s at the same time as playing for and managing Ireland) haven't got a clue about football..
Maybe some of the critisism is a bit OTT (it probably pays better to criticise the English on Irish TV) but its a lot more entertaining than all the pro England guff spouted on British TV. I'm sure elsewhere in the world outside of the Ingurland bubble the pundits were critical too. They were absolutely right to point out that Rooney still doesn't look right, that Slovenia had a decent chance with about 10 mins left which needed some desperate last ditch defending, that Slovenia are a very small nation whose most high profile player has just been released by West Brom... I thought it was another poor England performance and I was glad to find out I wasn't alone in that.
In other world cup news, congratulations to Slovakia. Anyone else find it slightly galling that a team we beat 5-2 less than 3 years ago are now in the last 16 of the World cup though? Just goes to show what we might achieve if our players, management, media, fans etc actually start believing!!!
(oh and well done to New Zealand for drawing ALL their games at this world cup. Note to the Welsh media- perhaps our draw against the Kiwis a few years back wasn't the death of Welsh football after all, eh?)
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Post by saints19 on Jun 24, 2010 18:55:42 GMT
you're right saints19 - Dunphy (23 caps for Ireland), Whelan (won everything at Liverpool) and Giles (played for the great Leeds team of the 70s at the same time as playing for and managing Ireland) haven't got a clue about football.. Having a great playing career (and putting Giles aside here) doesn't give you great knowledge of the game. In any case, I was asking a rhetorical question, not making a statement of fact. If they do have a clue about football, they weren't, in my opinion, showing it with those comments. Seriously, compared to other games at this World Cup (and the spectacle does appear to have suffered a bit due to negative tactics/the weather/mismatches in team ability, I thought yesterday's game was pretty good and England, though they weren't exactly comfortable, always looked like they would hang on for the win. Perhaps the only serious moment of doubt was when Slovenia had three shots on goal in quick succession midway during the second half. Aside from that I thought they looked pretty comfortable against a solid team. Relative to the other games at this World Cup, which is how England should be judged, what other performances can you list that have been really that much better? Spain and Argentina's performances against Honduras and South Korea respectively, Germany's 4-0 win over the Aussies and Portugal's mammoth 7-0 over North Korea come to mind for me, and Mexico were impressive against France, but other than that..... Maybe some of the critisism is a bit OTT (it probably pays better to criticise the English on Irish TV) but its a lot more entertaining than all the pro England guff spouted on British TV. I'm sure elsewhere in the world outside of the Ingurland bubble the pundits were critical too. They were absolutely right to point out that Rooney still doesn't look right, that Slovenia had a decent chance with about 10 mins left which needed some desperate last ditch defending, that Slovenia are a very small nation whose most high profile player has just been released by West Brom... I thought it was another poor England performance and I was glad to find out I wasn't alone in that. I'd agree with some of what you say here. Definitely I thought the criticism by the Irish pundits was OTT. Some of the words used - shocking, poor, woeful - lacked any sense of proportion and were totally sensationalistic and ignorant. They had to remember the pressure England were under. Frankly, if you'd have offered the England fans 1-0 at the start of the day they'd have ripped your hands off for it. Under the circumstances a good win and much improved performance. Slovenia were a difficult team to beat and yet really for most of the game England kept them quiet. I think that for me is telling. Even during the last few minutes, when they might have been panicking and doing desperate, last-ditch defending, they instead just kept the ball very calmly in the corners with Cole for virtually all of added time. A good win. |
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Post by tai33stashon on Jun 24, 2010 20:38:52 GMT
so What if Colman said us it is us, wear all British together under one flag. Im as proud as the next about being from wales and i cheer them on, but come on get real wear British.
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Post by marsvolta on Jun 24, 2010 22:45:04 GMT
you're right. from now on i propose all people on this site should come together under one flag and support england.
by the way,thanks for cheering on wales as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2010 22:59:19 GMT
so What if Colman said us it is us, wear all British together under one flag. Im as proud as the next about being from wales and i cheer them on, but come on get real wear British. There's something reassuring about a village having found its idiot. |
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Post by cymruunedig on Jun 25, 2010 15:08:13 GMT
"but come on get real wear British"...I'd rather wear Welsh thank you, a nice lambswool cardigan from Cardigan perhaps.
Well done Slovakia, nice to see the Italians crash and burn! I was going to say that we should be thinking 'we beat this lot 5-2 away in September 2007', but then realised the Slovaks only had 2 players, Durica and Hamsik, in yesterday's team and the one back in 2007!
Some great teamwork, fantastic organisation and spot-on tactics have got them through, well done Slovakia, and along with Slovenia's efforts, a reminder to us that we should be aiming high and that competing in a World Cup should not be beyond us!
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Post by flynnfan on Jun 25, 2010 21:48:11 GMT
Yesterday after the Slovakia - Italy game I turned to my non-Welsh girlfriend and said 'They're in the last 16 of the world cup and we beat them 5-2 less than 3 years ago!' She said, why don't Wales ever qualify then? ..er.. I started to splutter something about small population..blah blah.. lack of strength in depth...blah blah blah... but I didn't really believe it, not when you look at Slovenia getting there. She said ' I think its because the Welsh are so pessimistic' Again I started to splutter some response, but I knew deep down she was right (as she usually is!) If only we had half the attitude that the Americans have. OK, we can sneer at all that 'yes we can' bollix but I reckon it gets them a long, long way. Lets face it, their players' ability isn't particularly special. But their attitude definitely is.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2010 22:14:59 GMT
Yesterday after the Slovakia - Italy game I turned to my non-Welsh girlfriend and said 'They're in the last 16 of the world cup and we beat them 5-2 less than 3 years ago!' She said, why don't Wales ever qualify then? ..er.. I started to splutter something about small population..blah blah.. lack of strength in depth...blah blah blah... but I didn't really believe it, not when you look at Slovenia getting there. She said ' I think its because the Welsh are so pessimistic' Again I started to splutter some response, but I knew deep down she was right (as she usually is!) If only we had half the attitude that the Americans have. OK, we can sneer at all that 'yes we can' bollix but I reckon it gets them a long, long way. Lets face it, their players' ability isn't particularly special. But their attitude definitely is. A quick backhander would have saved such blushes. -PS: This is DEFINITELY a joke. Even if said girlfriend were English. In truth, "pessimism" or otherwise is at best a glib, even disingenuous excuse. Several factors have gone into our recent failure to qualify- an unsettled squad; lack of a natural centre forward, appalling injury record; inexperience; no luck what-so-ever in qualifying draws- and, ultimately, tactical conservatism by the manager, broadly as a result of all of the above. The change at the beginning of the next campaign- even with Allen, Collison and Ramsey likely to be unavailable is very different. In fact my only concern is the pressure Toshack may feel to play inferior individuals in the Blackpool squad on the basis that they are "Premiership players." Toshack needs to be very clear- Eardley, Vaughan and even Edwards should only be considered when all other options have been exhausted. |
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