Cymru Women's Team

[quetzal]

You got to smash it into row Z at the end there.

[winsumluzsum]

Really poor from James, total lack of composure gifting the ball to Ukraine. Then Roberts very poor. Didn't deserve to win.

[underwood]

The whole of that injury time was just about the worst game management I’ve seen from any team with a lead, the equaliser was an inevitability & exactly what Ukraine deserved.

Pathetic.

[surge]

Think Ukraine did enough to deserve a draw tonight after good performance by our women in the second half.

Really disappointing that couldn't see out the game especially with 45 seconds to go. Not sure it's anything to do with player rotation, but the defence looked vulnerable.

[jbt95]

Very sickening, but still in a great position with Croatia having played Kosovo twice too.

[Belle Vue]

Noel will carry on ploughing millions into this squad

[iot]

Jun 4, 2024 19:00:40 GMT underwood said:

In the modern world where you’re not allowed to say anything remotely critical, I’m just going to be blunt, this performance is sh1t.

I’m in my 50s & never played anything other than Sunday League, but even now I know I can pass better & control the ball better than these women.

All those years when the Welsh men never received any coverage & this bunch get wall to wall live coverage on BBC Wales.

Women’s Football is the Emperor’s New Clothes.

Two very poor performances and the passing quality / overall quality was much lower than the previous window, but your second sentence is absolute bollocks and makes you sound like an absolute dinosaur. 

The rest of your post also resembles the type of idiotic comments you see on social media of old men bitching about women's football. It's also incredibly ignorant. Have you heard about this thing called 'TV rights' by any chance?

[winsumluzsum]

Women's football is still in its infancy, but is making big strides. In 20 years time the difference between the men's game and the Women's game will be small, the main difference being the physical output in the men's game, but technically and tactically the difference will be small.

In the meantime I expect to be frustrated at times, as it's hard not to judge poor actions by an unfair metric, based on watching the men's game. But we all need to remember where the women's game is at on its journey.

One thing does irk me somewhat is placing the admirable goalscoring achievements of Fishlock on a scale that includes the men's national side. This encourages disrespect as there is no way you can imply that Fishlock's achievements are better than Bale's given the disparity between the two games in terms of the level of professionalism.

One final point. Those criticising the women's game should pause and reflect on why the women's game is still far behind the men's game. The Soccernomics book makes the point that women's games were attracting huge crowds in the early part of the 20th century, before the FA decided to ban women from playing football. So before you slag the women's game off just remember that the only reason it's behind the men's game is down to misogyny and sexism, pure and simple.

[hooky]

Jun 4, 2024 20:01:56 GMT surge said:

Think Ukraine did enough to deserve a draw tonight after good performance by our women in the second half.

Really disappointing that couldn't see out the game especially with 45 seconds to go. Not sure it's anything to do with player rotation, but the defence looked vulnerable.

Its to do with Ladd and Evans being stuck on the bench for an average Man Utd all season and 4 experienced players either making mistakes (Ingle and James giving the ball away) or not defending properly (Roberts, Ladd and maybe Evans) in injury time. Ladd and Roberts have been especially poor in these 2 games

Toothless in attack and chaotic in defence - its not possible to qualify for the Euros is it? Would not be surprised if Croatia beat us and we end up 3rd. Too many players just pass the ball with little penetration and are stationary. Only Fishlock with her world class moments and the likes of Holland and Barton with their drive and 100% commitment are performing well. Why don't more of our players love attacking or love defending? Ukraine were shattered but worked harder that last 15 mins than us in the running they did.

Mega disappointing 

[hooky]

Jun 4, 2024 20:57:25 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Women's football is still in its infancy, but is making big strides. In 20 years time the difference between the men's game and the Women's game will be small, the main difference being the physical output in the men's game, but technically and tactically the difference will be small.

In the meantime I expect to be frustrated at times, as it's hard not to judge poor actions by an unfair metric, based on watching the men's game. But we all need to remember where the women's game is at on its journey.

One thing does irk me somewhat is placing the admirable goalscoring achievements of Fishlock on a scale that includes the men's national side. This encourages disrespect as there is no way you can imply that Fishlock's achievements are better than Bale's given the disparity between the two games in terms of the level of professionalism.

One final point. Those criticising the women's game should pause and reflect on why the women's game is still far behind the men's game. The Soccernomics book makes the point that women's games were attracting huge crowds in the early part of the 20th century, before the FA decided to ban women from playing football. So before you slag the women's game off just remember that the only reason it's behind the men's game is down to misogyny and sexism, pure and simple.

To me Fishlock is as impressive as Bale, if you take into account she received far less investment, care or rewards and still delivers world class moments for Wales despite her age (late 30s) and jetting in from the US for games. Her passion for Wales is definitely on a par with his. She is remarkable - and then her experienced team mates let her down by not executing the basics, with mistake after mistake until the goal inevitably comes. She, Green-Barton and Holland did not deserve that tonight, but the rest of the team did 

[winsumluzsum]

Fishlock is very impressive, but in the context of a women's game that is fast improving but still a fair distance behind the men's game. Putting the goalscoring records of women and men's football on the same scale invites disparaging comments that are unhelpful.

We are where we are, but let's not construct a fiction that the women's game is on a par with the men's game. Misogyny is responsible for that disparity, but we can't pretend we're at a point where the two games are directly comparable. We will get there in due course.

[welshrover]

Jun 4, 2024 20:58:31 GMT hooky said:

Jun 4, 2024 20:01:56 GMT surge said:

Think Ukraine did enough to deserve a draw tonight after good performance by our women in the second half.

Really disappointing that couldn't see out the game especially with 45 seconds to go. Not sure it's anything to do with player rotation, but the defence looked vulnerable.

Its to do with Ladd and Evans being stuck on the bench for an average Man Utd all season and 4 experienced players either making mistakes (Ingle and James giving the ball away) or not defending properly (Roberts, Ladd and maybe Evans) in injury time. Ladd and Roberts have been especially poor in these 2 games

Toothless in attack and chaotic in defence - its not possible to qualify for the Euros is it? Would not be surprised if Croatia beat us and we end up 3rd. Too many players just pass the ball with little penetration and are stationary. Only Fishlock with her world class moments and the likes of Holland and Barton with their drive and 100% commitment are performing well. Why don't more of our players love attacking or love defending? Ukraine were shattered but worked harder that last 15 mins than us in the running they did.

Mega disappointing 

Are you allowed to use the phrase "little penetration" in this day and age😊

[surge]

In my opinion, Women's football and specially Welsh women's football has grown to the point where I don't need to defend it every time a fool opens their mouth and instead will aim to speak about the fixture with the high levels of respect that's deserved.

Looks like Ingle has moved back to defence semi-permanently but who is picking up that role in midfield? Bit naive in managing that risk (where was our rest defence), but it's still so early on in this managerial chapter.

[wft]

[ddirpytnop]

Cymru have been poor in these two games but
have no doubt will still qualify top of the group. There are two things that irritate me about the TV commentary on the women's games. Firstly, the unwillingness to call out poor play. Dreadfully underhit or overhit passes (which is a near constant feature) are described as 'unlucky' or 'the right idea'. When Gwennan Harries is commenting on the men's games, she'll rightly lambast these but the women appear to be beyond criticism. Secondly, the warranted praise for Kayleigh Barton. Yes,she makes an effort (and both her recent penalties were well-taken), but her touch and ball-control are woeful, she constantly loses the ball, she's forever off-side, she's ill-disciplined more generally, she regularly misses sitters and to cap it all, she's a diver. And yet she'll still get player if the match. In terms of basic ability, she's amongst the worst we have.

[kracken88]

As a society we've all slowly been forced to pretend everything is rainbows and unicorns,when the reality is it's just shit with sugar on and we're all so many drunks with the radio on and the curtains drawn, we're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine,and the machine is bleeding to death,suns out though😁

[jimexotic]

I proudly support the women's team and I follow women's sports to a degree. I'm under no illusion that it's the same as men's, strap a pair of breasts and put some hips on Messi and see if he can still do what he does, but it's entertaining and progressing. Jess Fishlock is a national treasure and her passion and pride for her country warms the heart. I think the ladies are improving, it's work in progress but Rome wasn't built in a day.

[bringbackelmo]

Hell of a strike from Fishlock. Should have won but as others have said, poor game management.

For all the misogynist fools that seem to exist in Wales, everyone will jump on the bandwagon when we do (inevitably) qualify for a tournament.

[winsumluzsum]

Jun 5, 2024 6:37:51 GMT ddirpytnop said:

Cymru have been poor in these two games but
have no doubt will still qualify top of the group. There are two things that irritate me about the TV commentary on the women's games. Firstly, the unwillingness to call out poor play. Dreadfully underhit or overhit passes (which is a near constant feature) are described as 'unlucky' or 'the right idea'. When Gwennan Harries is commenting on the men's games, she'll rightly lambast these but the women appear to be beyond criticism. Secondly, the warranted praise for Kayleigh Barton. Yes,she makes an effort (and both her recent penalties were well-taken), but her touch and ball-control are woeful, she constantly loses the ball, she's forever off-side, she's ill-disciplined more generally, she regularly misses sitters and to cap it all, she's a diver. And yet she'll still get player if the match. In terms of basic ability, she's amongst the worst we have.

I don't disagree as such with your points but I don't think it's fair to be overly critical at this juncture in the women's game. It must be given a fair chance to evolve and catch up with the men's game before it can it can be critiqued in the same way as the men's game. In the meantime the criticism should be more measured, although players shouldn't be immune to criticism either.

The women's game is getting there, we just need to show a bit of patience.

[allezlesrouges]

Jun 4, 2024 19:00:40 GMT underwood said:

I’m in my 50s & never played anything other than Sunday League, but even now I know I can pass better & control the ball better than these women.

Pure delusion. They're professional athletes you fool

They pass the ball around faster & harder than anything you've ever experienced. You'd have far less time on the ball than you're used to, and their cardio is far superior to yours

After 5 minutes you may have done 1 or 2 half decent touches/passes, and then by the 10th minute you'd be knackered and resemble a splattered tomato. Then the following 80 minutes they would be running rings around you and making you look silly

People who have never played beyond parks don't understand how much of a higher level the professional game is for both men and women

[foxmulder]

Jun 5, 2024 11:32:43 GMT allezlesrouges said:

Jun 4, 2024 19:00:40 GMT underwood said:

I’m in my 50s & never played anything other than Sunday League, but even now I know I can pass better & control the ball better than these women.

Pure delusion. They're professional athletes you fool

They pass the ball around faster & harder than anything you've ever experienced. You'd have far less time on the ball than you're used to, and their cardio is far superior to yours

After 5 minutes you may have done 1 or 2 half decent touches/passes, and then by the 10th minute you'd be knackered and resemble a splattered tomato. Then the following 80 minutes they would be running rings around you and making you look silly

People who have never played beyond parks don't understand how much of a higher level the professional game is for both men and women

After around 15 years of being on this board, this is probably my favourite ever reply.

[foxmulder]

Jun 5, 2024 6:50:34 GMT kracken88 said:

As a society we've all slowly been forced to pretend everything is rainbows and unicorns,when the reality is it's just shit with sugar on and we're all so many drunks with the radio on and the curtains drawn, we're trapped in the belly of this horrible machine,and the machine is bleeding to death,suns out though😁

Eh?

[dai]

On the topic of the standard of the Womens' team, I had an interesting conversation with a colleague a few weeks ago as to where they are compared to the Mens pyramid in Wales. I remember reading about the USA Womens team losing badly to a high school boys team a few years ago, and it made me think of our team. However I think the Womens team were missing a lot of their usual players, so may not have been a fair match.

Mindful that some may get offended here, but I've honestly tried to be reasonable. If I was to hazard a guess, I'd say most teams in level 4 and some in level 5 of the pyramid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_football_league_system) would beat the Welsh Women in the majority of matches. I've played with some players in levels 4 and 5 of the pyramid, and watched some games at that level, and I know some players would run riot against defences like last night.

The big difference would probably be conditioning, with the ladies edging that.

Thoughts?

[evans1282]

Jun 5, 2024 17:38:18 GMT dai said:

On the topic of the standard of the Womens' team, I had an interesting conversation with a colleague a few weeks ago as to where they are compared to the Mens pyramid in Wales. I remember reading about the USA Womens team losing badly to a high school boys team a few years ago, and it made me think of our team. However I think the Womens team were missing a lot of their usual players, so may not have been a fair match.

Mindful that some may get offended here, but I've honestly tried to be reasonable. If I was to hazard a guess, I'd say most teams in level 4 and some in level 5 of the pyramid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_football_league_system) would beat the Welsh Women in the majority of matches. I've played with some players in levels 4 and 5 of the pyramid, and watched some games at that level, and I know some players would run riot against defences like last night.

The big difference would probably be conditioning, with the ladies edging that.

Thoughts?

Dinosaurs exist! DAIsorus cunticus!

[dai]

Jun 5, 2024 18:20:46 GMT evans1282 said:

Jun 5, 2024 17:38:18 GMT dai said:

On the topic of the standard of the Womens' team, I had an interesting conversation with a colleague a few weeks ago as to where they are compared to the Mens pyramid in Wales. I remember reading about the USA Womens team losing badly to a high school boys team a few years ago, and it made me think of our team. However I think the Womens team were missing a lot of their usual players, so may not have been a fair match.

Mindful that some may get offended here, but I've honestly tried to be reasonable. If I was to hazard a guess, I'd say most teams in level 4 and some in level 5 of the pyramid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_football_league_system) would beat the Welsh Women in the majority of matches. I've played with some players in levels 4 and 5 of the pyramid, and watched some games at that level, and I know some players would run riot against defences like last night.

The big difference would probably be conditioning, with the ladies edging that.

Thoughts?

Dinosaurs exist! DAIsorus cunticus!

Zzzzzz.

Read back through the thread, I have a lot of interest in Womens football and watch all our games. Looking for a sensible discussion.

[aberbeeg]

Jun 5, 2024 11:32:43 GMT allezlesrouges said:

Jun 4, 2024 19:00:40 GMT underwood said:

I’m in my 50s & never played anything other than Sunday League, but even now I know I can pass better & control the ball better than these women.

Pure delusion. They're professional athletes you fool

They pass the ball around faster & harder than anything you've ever experienced. You'd have far less time on the ball than you're used to, and their cardio is far superior to yours

After 5 minutes you may have done 1 or 2 half decent touches/passes, and then by the 10th minute you'd be knackered and resemble a splattered tomato. Then the following 80 minutes they would be running rings around you and making you look silly

People who have never played beyond parks don't understand how much of a higher level the professional game is for both men and women

Really? A semi professional men’s team would blow any woman’s teams away by half time. Physically most women would  never challenge most 50/50 balls even 60/40 balls against men because they know they couldn’t cope. I’d go further and say even a lot of mens youth teams would challenge any female team. Let’s not pretend the female game is anything other than Z list football at best.

[allezlesrouges]

Jun 5, 2024 19:24:51 GMT aberbeeg said:

Jun 5, 2024 11:32:43 GMT allezlesrouges said:

Pure delusion. They're professional athletes you fool

They pass the ball around faster & harder than anything you've ever experienced. You'd have far less time on the ball than you're used to, and their cardio is far superior to yours

After 5 minutes you may have done 1 or 2 half decent touches/passes, and then by the 10th minute you'd be knackered and resemble a splattered tomato. Then the following 80 minutes they would be running rings around you and making you look silly

People who have never played beyond parks don't understand how much of a higher level the professional game is for both men and women

Really? A semi professional men’s team would blow any woman’s teams away by half time. Physically most women would  never challenge most 50/50 balls even 60/40 balls against men because they know they couldn’t cope. I’d go further and say even a lot of mens youth teams would challenge any female team. Let’s not pretend the female game is anything other than Z list football at best.

I'm sorry, did my post say "Women's elite football is on the same level as men's elite football"? - because if it did I missed it!

You're arguing against a strawman there my friend and I know why you're doing it, because every point I *actually* made in my post is bullet proof facts

[allezlesrouges]

Jun 5, 2024 17:38:18 GMT dai said:

On the topic of the standard of the Womens' team, I had an interesting conversation with a colleague a few weeks ago as to where they are compared to the Mens pyramid in Wales. I remember reading about the USA Womens team losing badly to a high school boys team a few years ago, and it made me think of our team. However I think the Womens team were missing a lot of their usual players, so may not have been a fair match.

Mindful that some may get offended here, but I've honestly tried to be reasonable. If I was to hazard a guess, I'd say most teams in level 4 and some in level 5 of the pyramid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_football_league_system) would beat the Welsh Women in the majority of matches. I've played with some players in levels 4 and 5 of the pyramid, and watched some games at that level, and I know some players would run riot against defences like last night.

The big difference would probably be conditioning, with the ladies edging that.

Thoughts?

Testosterone is key in any sport, so when men go through puberty they will always have a physical advantage, there's no denying that. If you put all the women's teams on hormone therapy their performance levels would also improve. I don't think it's controversial to acknowledge that

However, it's also worth noting that social factors have severely inhibited the development of the women's game. They were banned from playing for....no real reason at all! Social expectations of women were placed on them by men who were in charge of society. This is why disparaging comments that others have made on here are ignorant and contribute to this same toxic culture of thinking

It's fine to say the women's game isn't on a par with men at the top levels and even just below the top men's levels, but when people take so much glee in mocking women after how much men have held them back I will always speak up against it

Also since being backed by money the women's game has come on loads. Anyone who has watched women's football over time knows this. It will continue to improve the more that it's backed, and I personally enjoy watching it more than ever now. By the time my kids are older the gap to men's football will be smaller, and that's a great thing

[dai]

Jun 5, 2024 20:12:39 GMT allezlesrouges said:

Jun 5, 2024 17:38:18 GMT dai said:

On the topic of the standard of the Womens' team, I had an interesting conversation with a colleague a few weeks ago as to where they are compared to the Mens pyramid in Wales. I remember reading about the USA Womens team losing badly to a high school boys team a few years ago, and it made me think of our team. However I think the Womens team were missing a lot of their usual players, so may not have been a fair match.

Mindful that some may get offended here, but I've honestly tried to be reasonable. If I was to hazard a guess, I'd say most teams in level 4 and some in level 5 of the pyramid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_football_league_system) would beat the Welsh Women in the majority of matches. I've played with some players in levels 4 and 5 of the pyramid, and watched some games at that level, and I know some players would run riot against defences like last night.

The big difference would probably be conditioning, with the ladies edging that.

Thoughts?

Testosterone is key in any sport, so when men go through puberty they will always have a physical advantage, there's no denying that. If you put all the women's teams on hormone therapy their performance levels would also improve. I don't think it's controversial to acknowledge that

However, it's also worth noting that social factors have severely inhibited the development of the women's game. They were banned from playing for....no real reason at all! Social expectations of women were placed on them by men who were in charge of society. This is why disparaging comments that others have made on here are ignorant and contribute to this same toxic culture of thinking

It's fine to say the women's game isn't on a par with men at the top levels and even just below the top men's levels, but when people take so much glee in mocking women after how much men have held them back I will always speak up against it

Also since being backed by money the women's game has come on loads. Anyone who has watched women's football over time knows this. It will continue to improve the more that it's backed, and I personally enjoy watching it more than ever now. By the time my kids are older the gap to men's football will be smaller, and that's a great thing

Tbh, Ive actually enjoyed the more recent Womens’ games more than the mens football. The game has probably evolved a hell of a lot in Wales over the last 10 years. I knew of a girl in school 20 years ago who played football for I think the county, and I know for a fact that the level of aupport and guidance was incredibly poor compared to today.

And this is not about saying that the Womens game isnt on a par with men at all, I was just interested to see how others viewed the level of standard compared to mens.

I am especially proud of Angharad James as I went to the same secondary school as her, myself a bit older. Being a rugby orientated school, which gave very little time to football, it’s incredible to think an international womens footballer came from the school.

[winsumluzsum]

Jun 5, 2024 20:12:39 GMT allezlesrouges said:

Jun 5, 2024 17:38:18 GMT dai said:

On the topic of the standard of the Womens' team, I had an interesting conversation with a colleague a few weeks ago as to where they are compared to the Mens pyramid in Wales. I remember reading about the USA Womens team losing badly to a high school boys team a few years ago, and it made me think of our team. However I think the Womens team were missing a lot of their usual players, so may not have been a fair match.

Mindful that some may get offended here, but I've honestly tried to be reasonable. If I was to hazard a guess, I'd say most teams in level 4 and some in level 5 of the pyramid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_football_league_system) would beat the Welsh Women in the majority of matches. I've played with some players in levels 4 and 5 of the pyramid, and watched some games at that level, and I know some players would run riot against defences like last night.

The big difference would probably be conditioning, with the ladies edging that.

Thoughts?

Testosterone is key in any sport, so when men go through puberty they will always have a physical advantage, there's no denying that. If you put all the women's teams on hormone therapy their performance levels would also improve. I don't think it's controversial to acknowledge that

However, it's also worth noting that social factors have severely inhibited the development of the women's game. They were banned from playing for....no real reason at all! Social expectations of women were placed on them by men who were in charge of society. This is why disparaging comments that others have made on here are ignorant and contribute to this same toxic culture of thinking

It's fine to say the women's game isn't on a par with men at the top levels and even just below the top men's levels, but when people take so much glee in mocking women after how much men have held them back I will always speak up against it

Also since being backed by money the women's game has come on loads. Anyone who has watched women's football over time knows this. It will continue to improve the more that it's backed, and I personally enjoy watching it more than ever now. By the time my kids are older the gap to men's football will be smaller, and that's a great thing

Excellent post, pretty much how I see it. You only have to look at tennis to see how proper financial support over a prolonged period of time has narrowed the gap between men and women tennis. The physical output is different, but the level of skill and attractiveness of the game is comparable.