Wales Tactics. Tosh is Right. World cup Proves it!

[walrus]

It was known for years that Fried Bananas were an ideal pre match energy source. That Savage came out and lambasted Tosh made him look like a complete twat. However i suspect that Joe Public thought Tosh was nuts.
I've lived overseas for a while now and the impression is that british football is great entertainment but backwards. Hence my pro Tosh views, as essentially Tosh has picked up a lot from his o'seas duty. Unfortunately as Storm rightly points out the playing staff were not ready for a sea change. A coach friend recently followed a big Prem club at training and was once again astonished at the same old training routines giving evidence that English clubs in general are not innovative are reactive and seem stuck in the past and masking problems with a huge chequebook and some half time team talks. So from my perspective Tosh is on the right track but his revolution will take time due to the player centric culture in English football. James Lawton wrote this week a seemingly explosive expose on the over rated english players due to their wage packets and celebrity status. Welcome to the rest of the world view James.

[llannerch]

Best post on this board.

[flynnfan]

Its a good post, but I read that James Lawton article I think you're referring to about English sportsmen being overhyped, and I couldn't believe the hypocrisy of an English sports journalist making this point. You only have to go back a few days for a Lawton article predicting an England win over Germany (!) because of Wayne Rooney. That was pretty much it- England will beat Germany because of Wayne Rooney! nothing comparing the two teams workrate, organisation, technique... it was all about England having the superstar from the nike advert, and Germanys players not being particularly famous in comparison. The media is largely to blame for the players Englands players toxic celebrtity status. Although I think we underhype the likes of Bale and Ramsey in Wales (certainly in comparison to rugby players who barely anyone from outside of Wales has heard of) I'm glad we don't go in for the ridiculous , sickening hype that surrounds the whole 'In-gur-land' thing.

Getting back to the title of the thread, it'll be interesting to see if the players are more receptive to Toshack over the coming campaign because of the world cup, and the way he's been trying to get us to play a more patient, technical game. Spain were very patient in the WC- winning all their knockout games 1-0, never looking panicked. Also, Toshack worked with Alonso and Casillas when they were kids, so having helped develop a couple of World cup winners might add a bit more weight to his words. I dunno, this is his last campaign anyway- even if the players don't like him they should at least realise he'll be gone soon and make themselves indispensible to the team in order to send a message to the next manager...

[no1skewenjack]

I'm glad a few of you have enjoyed my post . I tried posting the same same theme thread on BBC 606 but had one reply . At least this board is active with some interesting thoughts. I found dragon soccer quite good but some posts would be deleted too soon without giving people chance to reply.

[cyrilbeech]

The tactical mindset of Toshack is in my opinion extremely cribbed and lacks any coherence or inventiveness whatsoever. The number of matches I have witnessed under the tactical genius of Toshack have for the most part been extremely mind numbing affairs with very little width or creativity in the final third. Whilst Toshack does inevitably have a very distinguished CV, the facts remain that he has achieved nothing of note since his spell in Turkish football in the mid 1990's. True, he has coached in the Primera since then but those appointments were largely unproductive with regards to domestic honours. It's a sad fact but the game has moved on since the 1980's and to still be using formations which are restrictive to full individual potential of the Welsh squad themselves means that I feel we have very little hope of progressing in the immediate future.

I happen to think that there exist a good number of coaches within the UK (both past and present) who have sound footballing philosophies regardless of what level they coach at. Brendan Rogers for example plays excellent football and whilst at Watford totally transformed their hoofball style of play. Others such as Nigel Atkins at Scunthorpe also try and encourage free flowing attacking football so I think it is a bit unfair to be critical to the younger coaches/managers coming through. In looking at the proactive outlooks of these two managers alone, is it fair that we should be stiffling our senior team with such arcane and misguided tactical formations? I think not yet Toshack will continue to persist with such ideas which is sad in many respects as the enthusiasm and vigour of Brian Flynn is a joy to behold and only makes him look more stale and outdated in comparison.

[Deleted]

Jul 24, 2010 21:35:19 GMT cyrilbeech said:

The tactical mindset of Toshack is in my opinion extremely cribbed and lacks any coherence or inventiveness whatsoever. The number of matches I have witnessed under the tactical genius of Toshack have for the most part been extremely mind numbing affairs with very little width or creativity in the final third. Whilst Toshack does inevitably have a very distinguished CV, the facts remain that he has achieved nothing of note since his spell in Turkish football in the mid 1990's. True, he has coached in the Primera since then but those appointments were largely unproductive with regards to domestic honours. It's a sad fact but the game has moved on since the 1980's and to still be using formations which are restrictive to full individual potential of the Welsh squad themselves means that I feel we have very little hope of progressing in the immediate future.

I happen to think that there exist a good number of coaches within the UK (both past and present) who have sound footballing philosophies regardless of what level they coach at. Brendan Rogers for example plays excellent football and whilst at Watford totally transformed their hoofball style of play. Others such as Nigel Atkins at Scunthorpe also try and encourage free flowing attacking football so I think it is a bit unfair to be critical to the younger coaches/managers coming through. In looking at the proactive outlooks of these two managers alone, is it fair that we should be stiffling our senior team with such arcane and misguided tactical formations? I think not yet Toshack will continue to persist with such ideas which is sad in many respects as the enthusiasm and vigour of Brian Flynn is a joy to behold and only makes him look more stale and outdated in comparison.

I used to think the same, that Tosh was yesterdays man in the way he was setting us out, but to be fair to him (and those who knew me under my previous name on the DS board will know I hate to say anything positive about old fathead) he seems to have pre-empted the current international vogue of defensive, possession football.

Im not sure whether this was intentional or just coincidence but it has to be said we are not very good at it and it becomes a frustrating spectacle to watch as we inevitably cannot seem to create any chances. The Spanish are good enough to play that way as they know they can keep the ball for 20 or more passes before getting a shot away. We sadly cant, most of our moves break down between midfield and the opposition penalty area after 10 passes in the midfield waiting for an opening and we then finish the game with only 3 or 4 shots in 90 minutes. Very very frustrating.

I have noticed the fans of my club side (Bristol Rovers) talking of late about 1 up front with 2 supporting attackers and it makes me laugh. Does what happens in a world cup really apply at league one level? I think it is the same principle with Wales. Just because the likes of Spain do it do we need to try and beat them at their own game? By that I mean we are so far away in terms of ability from the top sides that emulating them is not a solution unless we have a team full of superstars rather than the 2 or 3 we have at the moment. There is something to be said, obviously, for ensuring that we are not outnumbered in the midfield- but I really do think that we need to first and foremost play in a way that our players are comfortable with and it seems obvious to me that Toshs way of setting us up has never got the best out of our players.

When you look at the likes of Spain, they had a root and branch re-arrangement of their coaching about 15 years ago and they are just now reaping the benefits with the current generation. The same has to happen in Britain. It is useless trying to instill a possession culture in the welsh set up as with the best will in the world as long as we are having to pick players from lower prem sides and below we are going to be hamstrung. And lets be fair, the England players from the big four looked very short in terms of technique when against Algeria so what should we really be expecting from the likes of Edwards and Ledley?

I agree that Flynn's under 21s are a credit and joy to watch. There is always the nagging doubt that were he to take the senior reins his approach would be too naive and we would be tanked. Having said that, Toshs approach means we never get slaughtered but practically turn up already beaten as you know that at some point we will concede at least one and we will struggle to even create chances in response. I think I would rather see us looking like we can score even if we are going to lose.

We would be better suited imo forgetting the possession football and looking to play like Germany, a style of play based on not having the ball but being very economical with it when we do get it. We could just about get away with that as Bale Bellamy and Ramsey are ideal for quick breaks involving a small number of passes ending with a shot on goal. We are competant at defending in numbers and providing we could find a quality defensive mid (King?) and that all-elusive prolific striker we would have the spine of a side that could counter attack very well.

[Tim P]

RD - i think the gist of what your saying is correct. tosh may well have developed/forseen the popularity of this formation - but did he pay any attention to the kind of players we have to choose from?

as it happens, i think the basics of the 4-2-3-1 do suit us; if we had someone like klose, then i'd be advocating it 100%.

currently, my optimism is veering wildly between extremes. we could come second in this group, we could come bottom. clearly, it's all about getting a good start. the minutae of formations and tactics is vital at elite level - but we are nowhere near that level. we're at the kind of level where player morale and team spirit is probably the first thing that needs to be established, along with work ethic. without specifying any formations/tactics, my inclination would be to set the team up in a way that allows our best players (bale, ramsey and bellamy) to perform to their fullest, and the other eight players to be organised and competetive.

[walrus]

"without specifying any formations/tactics, my inclination would be to set the team up in a way that allows our best players (bale, ramsey and bellamy) to perform to their fullest, and the other eight players to be organised and competetive. "

Which suggests counterattack, looking at the quality of the defenders available.

[Tim P]

yep, i think so.

[walrus]

I watched AEK Athens v Blackburn Rovers at the stadium last night. It was very instructive as AEK played a 4231 whilst Rovers played a 451. AEK passed it on the deck, Rovers lumped it foward to Roberts. AEK had spanish like fluidity in the middle of the park, Rovers had Dunn in the free role (lazy fatso). AEK controlled the tempo of the game , caressing the ball moving the opposition around and then striking with precision, Rovers presented the ball on a silver platter to AEK each time the ball came Rovers way. Possesion stats were 99.99% AEK 0.001 % blackburn 0.009 % ballboys. Blackburn were big muscular and ponderous. AEK were smaller agile dynamic. The contrast was stark indeed. Rovers represent the Robbie Savage way. AEK represent the hoped for TOSH way. Unfortunately and this is where the international criminal court should step in, Savage has got more cars and houses than the entire AEK team.
how could two 451 formations be so different?

In short I was astonished that my own dismissive thoughts on lower Prem football were indeed not dismissive enough. Incredible.

[Deleted]

Jul 29, 2010 1:59:01 GMT walrus said:

I watched AEK Athens v Blackburn Rovers at the stadium last night. It was very instructive as AEK played a 4231 whilst Rovers played a 451. AEK passed it on the deck, Rovers lumped it foward to Roberts. AEK had spanish like fluidity in the middle of the park, Rovers had Dunn in the free role (lazy fatso). AEK controlled the tempo of the game , caressing the ball moving the opposition around and then striking with precision, Rovers presented the ball on a silver platter to AEK each time the ball came Rovers way. Possesion stats were 99.99% AEK 0.001 % blackburn 0.009 % ballboys. Blackburn were big muscular and ponderous. AEK were smaller agile dynamic. The contrast was stark indeed. Rovers represent the Robbie Savage way. AEK represent the hoped for TOSH way. Unfortunately and this is where the international criminal court should step in, Savage has got more cars and houses than the entire AEK team.
how could two 451 formations be so different?

In short I was astonished that my own dismissive thoughts on lower Prem football were indeed not dismissive enough. Incredible.

True enough, but the sad reality is that nothing can be done about it. The premier league is a brand and its a brand built on its USP- big, muscular, fast paced football with an emphasis on athleticism over skill. The top dogs who run the prem undoubtedly see this USP as what makes them so 'popular' and sells the television rights both and abroad. So they will not be willing to embrace any attempt to move away from this paradigm. The fact that this approach is not likely to do England, let alone the rest of the home nations, any good on the international stage long term does not matter to these people.

When you take into account that kids who do not fulfill a certain height/weight criteria are being turned away from youth football clubs in the Bristol area it makes you realise how far down the system the premier leagues vision stretches. From a very young age these lads are being groomed for premier league football and if you are a Messi character, ie too much skill and too little brawn, then you are not wanted. These could be welsh lads being turned away and told they have no future in the game because they do not fit into the English football archetype.

Every time England crash out of a tournament, or fail to qualify, they threaten an upheaval of the English system. It never happens though, too many vested interests. Remember the root and branch inquiry after McClaren failed? Things are still the same at grassroots level now. Its frustrating but I think we are going to have to come to terms with the fact that we are going to have to work with very limited players for the forseeable future and I dont see efforts to emulate successful foreign sides as being the answer. As Tosh has proven its very difficult given the players we have at our disposal.

[walrus]

A way forward is to a) sign all welsh players to Swansea City b) encourage youngsters to go and play abroad in forward thinking countries.

[flynnfan]

This is the kind of thing I was talking about in the thread 'are England's problems also ours?' What I find encouraging is that the likes of Ramsey and Allen are small, skilful and imaginative (Spanish style midfileders, if you like) and both have come through with Welsh clubs and through the Welsh youth system. So maybe we do things a bit differently to our neighbours?

I saw the Spanish squad just recently and when you're up close to them, it really takes you aback just how small so many of them are - even a top centre back like Carlos Puyol. There's no way in youth football I would have been considered to play centre back (I'm 5'9".... although if gloria's reading this and still wants a fight in Podgorica then I'm actually 6'6" and just lying to make a point!) I remember when I played junior football, the first thing we'd do before a game was check how big our opponents looked, because we knew most games would come down to a physical contest. The more I think about it, the more I think it ridiculous that at 11 years old we were playing hour long games on full size bumpy, boggy, sloping pitches with full size goals.

Point b about more players going abroad is a good one walrus. Maybe if Higgins comes through from Almeria and makes a real impact, then that might hopefully encourage a few others to try their luck in sunnier climes...

[walrus]

Recall the Mike England years and how many Swansea players were in the squad?
Lots. It meant that there was a club focus much like the Spaniards now. Tosh had the swans playing good football. Mostly 532 in a world of 422. Now there is a succesion of progressive managers at the swans unlike Cardiff who have a typically british manager in Dave Jones who plays direct (chaaaaarge!) football with a bit of long ball thrown in.
I would have liked to see Joe Ledley go to Ajax or Feyenoord for example rather than Celtic. He would have learned so much more.

[flynnfan]

I only really reacall the last 3 Mike England years walrus, and there weren't too many Swansea players involved then. But by that point Tosh had left and they'd started sliding down the leagues. I guess at the start when were beating England 4-1, the Swans were flying high and there were a few of their players involved for Wales? Looking forward, it could happen again: Joe Allen, David Cotterill, Ashley Williams, Neil Taylor (all already full internationals), Shaun Mcdonald, Jazz Richards, David Cornell, Danile Alfei, Casey Thomas (involved with the U21s), hopefully the youth players are learning good habits too. Could the Swans be for us what Barcelona are to Spain?!

[Deleted]

Jul 29, 2010 10:11:34 GMT flynnfan said:

This is the kind of thing I was talking about in the thread 'are England's problems also ours?' What I find encouraging is that the likes of Ramsey and Allen are small, skilful and imaginative (Spanish style midfileders, if you like) and both have come through with Welsh clubs and through the Welsh youth system. So maybe we do things a bit differently to our neighbours?

I saw the Spanish squad just recently and when you're up close to them, it really takes you aback just how small so many of them are - even a top centre back like Carlos Puyol. There's no way in youth football I would have been considered to play centre back (I'm 5'9".... although if gloria's reading this and still wants a fight in Podgorica then I'm actually 6'6" and just lying to make a point!) I remember when I played junior football, the first thing we'd do before a game was check how big our opponents looked, because we knew most games would come down to a physical contest. The more I think about it, the more I think it ridiculous that at 11 years old we were playing hour long games on full size bumpy, boggy, sloping pitches with full size goals.

Point b about more players going abroad is a good one walrus. Maybe if Higgins comes through from Almeria and makes a real impact, then that might hopefully encourage a few others to try their luck in sunnier climes...

What I want to know is if Higgins would have made it in the UK, maybe the reason he was picked up by Almeria is precisely because of the fact he received his coaching in Spain and is used to their game. He is well worth promoting in the Wales squads as his development could be a major case study for the future in proving the importance of proper coaching that we just do not get in Britain. If he turns out to be an excellent player a lot will be made of the fact that he is a Spanish product and that is one thing we see even less than Brits going abroad to play- Brits being brought up from youth level through foreign coaching systems.

As well as young players moving abroad there should certainly be more effort to send youth clubs to train in places like Spain and see what they can learn. Thats a good point about Allen being given a chance by Swansea, although I dont think for one minute the Welsh clubs do things differently- exceptionally talented players will always get through. But ultimately the goal of every club is to reach the prem and when physical football can get you there clubs wont take a lot of chances when it comes to offering contracts.

I think its a shame when you hear people taking pride in telling everyone that Messi wouldnt last five minutes in the premier league, that sort of thinking is why we are in this situation.

[flynnfan]

Yeah, I hate it when people say stuff like 'Stoke or Blackburn would sort Messi out' What do you mean sort him out? break his legs? And who would you prefer to pay money to see play- Messi or Shawcross?! There's no way if I was Messi I'd ever even consider coming to the premier league. Doesn't matter how much money's on the table...

As for Higgins, I'd say its a bit unfair to turn him into a science experiment RD. The kid is a human being after all..