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Post by robin1864 on Oct 23, 2016 17:25:13 GMT
I'm against calling people up unless the threat of England poaching is very real. If Wilson is the U21 version of Bale, leave him be until he comes of age; he could provide a real lift to his teammates around him, and be the crucial factor in us winning our age-grade matches.
Our current senior squad came about through a mass-promotion, so it felt like little to no transition for the lads, and I'd imagine morale and squad familiarity would be in a very different place if Bale, Gunter, Rambo and Hennessey were promoted at different points in time.
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Post by cymroircarn on Oct 23, 2016 18:42:11 GMT
I'm against calling people up unless the threat of England poaching is very real. If Wilson is the U21 version of Bale, leave him be until he comes of age; he could provide a real lift to his teammates around him, and be the crucial factor in us winning our age-grade matches. Our current senior squad came about through a mass-promotion, so it felt like little to no transition for the lads, and I'd imagine morale and squad familiarity would be in a very different place if Bale, Gunter, Rambo and Hennessey were promoted at different points in time. He's already been called in a senior game (Belgium away qualifier) so can't be poached? |
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Post by robin1864 on Oct 23, 2016 22:57:47 GMT
I'm against calling people up unless the threat of England poaching is very real. If Wilson is the U21 version of Bale, leave him be until he comes of age; he could provide a real lift to his teammates around him, and be the crucial factor in us winning our age-grade matches. Our current senior squad came about through a mass-promotion, so it felt like little to no transition for the lads, and I'd imagine morale and squad familiarity would be in a very different place if Bale, Gunter, Rambo and Hennessey were promoted at different points in time. He's already been called in a senior game (Belgium away qualifier) so can't be poached? I'm aware of that, but I don't think we should be calling up players willy-nilly. We're not exactly short on wingers, so let him progress naturally. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2016 23:27:55 GMT
He's already been called in a senior game (Belgium away qualifier) so can't be poached? I'm aware of that, but I don't think we should be calling up players willy-nilly. We're not exactly short on wingers, so let him progress naturally. Er.....we brought on Cotterill against Georgia? |
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Post by ae15 on Oct 24, 2016 0:18:31 GMT
I'm aware of that, but I don't think we should be calling up players willy-nilly. We're not exactly short on wingers, so let him progress naturally. Er.....we brought on Cotterill against Georgia? Yep. Cotterill was absolutely pathetic for Birmingham on Friday night as well, just let Lloyd Dyer have a free run on the left, didn't even bother to track. |
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Post by jonnylitts on Oct 24, 2016 7:14:59 GMT
I'm against calling people up unless the threat of England poaching is very real. If Wilson is the U21 version of Bale, leave him be until he comes of age; he could provide a real lift to his teammates around him, and be the crucial factor in us winning our age-grade matches. Our current senior squad came about through a mass-promotion, so it felt like little to no transition for the lads, and I'd imagine morale and squad familiarity would be in a very different place if Bale, Gunter, Rambo and Hennessey were promoted at different points in time. I get what you're saying about being important for his age grade matches but surely the first team is the most important. If he's good enough (or much better than) our current first team players then I don't see what the issue is with bringing him into the first team. Let's face it, after Bale, Ramsey and Allen (plus Jonny Williams) are taken out of our squad there's a huge hole that can't be filled by our current squad. Also, don't forget that Bale became a regular in the team when he was 17... On the evidence I've seen of Wilson (scoring very regularly and creating lots of goals for the U23's side) Wilson > MacDonald, Cotterill, Lawrence Not exactly going to upset the dynamic by dropping any of those three for Wilson. Not wishing to muddy the waters in this thread but I'd suggest that Woodburn is also currently > King, Edwards and Ledley (as an attacking threat) |
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Post by iot on Oct 24, 2016 8:11:51 GMT
I'm against calling people up unless the threat of England poaching is very real. If Wilson is the U21 version of Bale, leave him be until he comes of age; he could provide a real lift to his teammates around him, and be the crucial factor in us winning our age-grade matches. Our current senior squad came about through a mass-promotion, so it felt like little to no transition for the lads, and I'd imagine morale and squad familiarity would be in a very different place if Bale, Gunter, Rambo and Hennessey were promoted at different points in time. I get what you're saying about being important for his age grade matches but surely the first team is the most important. If he's good enough (or much better than) our current first team players then I don't see what the issue is with bringing him into the first team. Let's face it, after Bale, Ramsey and Allen (plus Jonny Williams) are taken out of our squad there's a huge hole that can't be filled by our current squad. Also, don't forget that Bale became a regular in the team when he was 17... On the evidence I've seen of Wilson (scoring very regularly and creating lots of goals for the U23's side) Wilson > MacDonald, Cotterill, Lawrence Not exactly going to upset the dynamic by dropping any of those three for Wilson. Not wishing to muddy the waters in this thread but I'd suggest that Woodburn is also currently > King, Edwards and Ledley (as an attacking threat)Both Wilson and Woodburn look like great prospects, but you can't bring them into the senior squad when they have barely any experience of senior football. Wilson went on loan to Crewe last season but wasn't deemed ready for it and consequentially had his loan cancelled. We have to wait until they get a run of games at senior level before considering bringing them in. |
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Post by eppingblue on Oct 24, 2016 11:16:15 GMT
I'm against calling people up unless the threat of England poaching is very real. If Wilson is the U21 version of Bale, leave him be until he comes of age; he could provide a real lift to his teammates around him, and be the crucial factor in us winning our age-grade matches. Our current senior squad came about through a mass-promotion, so it felt like little to no transition for the lads, and I'd imagine morale and squad familiarity would be in a very different place if Bale, Gunter, Rambo and Hennessey were promoted at different points in time. I get what you're saying about being important for his age grade matches but surely the first team is the most important. If he's good enough (or much better than) our current first team players then I don't see what the issue is with bringing him into the first team. Let's face it, after Bale, Ramsey and Allen (plus Jonny Williams) are taken out of our squad there's a huge hole that can't be filled by our current squad. Also, don't forget that Bale became a regular in the team when he was 17... On the evidence I've seen of Wilson (scoring very regularly and creating lots of goals for the U23's side) Wilson > MacDonald, Cotterill, Lawrence Not exactly going to upset the dynamic by dropping any of those three for Wilson. Not wishing to muddy the waters in this thread but I'd suggest that Woodburn is also currently > King, Edwards and Ledley (as an attacking threat)I don't get your glorification of Jonny Williams. For me he's ineffective. As for Woodburn better than King, Edwards and Ledley at this stage is a bit of a wild punt. Regular performers this season at Prem and Championship level and all with 50 plus career goals from midfield by their late 20's. I don't see Jonny getting anywhere near 50 if he plays til he's 100. So far 3. How many games or perhaps minutes has he played this season ? |
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Post by jonnylitts on Oct 24, 2016 11:48:12 GMT
I get what you're saying about being important for his age grade matches but surely the first team is the most important. If he's good enough (or much better than) our current first team players then I don't see what the issue is with bringing him into the first team. Let's face it, after Bale, Ramsey and Allen (plus Jonny Williams) are taken out of our squad there's a huge hole that can't be filled by our current squad. Also, don't forget that Bale became a regular in the team when he was 17... On the evidence I've seen of Wilson (scoring very regularly and creating lots of goals for the U23's side) Wilson > MacDonald, Cotterill, Lawrence Not exactly going to upset the dynamic by dropping any of those three for Wilson. Not wishing to muddy the waters in this thread but I'd suggest that Woodburn is also currently > King, Edwards and Ledley (as an attacking threat)I don't get your glorification of Jonny Williams. For me he's ineffective. As for Woodburn better than King, Edwards and Ledley at this stage is a bit of a wild punt. Regular performers this season at Prem and Championship level and all with 50 plus career goals from midfield by their late 20's. I don't see Jonny getting anywhere near 50 if he plays til he's 100. So far 3. How many games or perhaps minutes has he played this season ? I wasn't glorifying Williams, just making the point that he's one of our more attack minded players. I do think that as an attacking threat Woodburn is better than King, Ledley and Edwards (and that's where we're weak without Ramsey and Allen in the side) King has scored 59 goals in 341 appearances Ledley has scored 66 goals in 496 appearances Edwards has scored 54 goals in 435 appearances Woodburn hasn't been given the opportunity at senior level yet but has scored 4 in 6 (and assisted 5) in the U23 premier league. I appreciate that he hasn't played senior level but he is producing it at u23 level and when we are missing our attacking minded players, he shouldn't be discounted by the fact that he's not played senior football. Plus, he's not just playing in the team, he's dominating matches, scoring goals and assisting. None of which can be said about any of the players outside of our top three... |
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Post by iot on Oct 24, 2016 12:45:21 GMT
I get what you're saying about being important for his age grade matches but surely the first team is the most important. If he's good enough (or much better than) our current first team players then I don't see what the issue is with bringing him into the first team. Let's face it, after Bale, Ramsey and Allen (plus Jonny Williams) are taken out of our squad there's a huge hole that can't be filled by our current squad. Also, don't forget that Bale became a regular in the team when he was 17... On the evidence I've seen of Wilson (scoring very regularly and creating lots of goals for the U23's side) Wilson > MacDonald, Cotterill, Lawrence Not exactly going to upset the dynamic by dropping any of those three for Wilson. Not wishing to muddy the waters in this thread but I'd suggest that Woodburn is also currently > King, Edwards and Ledley (as an attacking threat)I don't get your glorification of Jonny Williams. For me he's ineffective. As for Woodburn better than King, Edwards and Ledley at this stage is a bit of a wild punt. Regular performers this season at Prem and Championship level and all with 50 plus career goals from midfield by their late 20's. I don't see Jonny getting anywhere near 50 if he plays til he's 100. So far 3. How many games or perhaps minutes has he played this season ? Looking only at assists and goals is such a simplistic English/British way of assessing the quality of a midfielder. The main role is to set the tempo, dictate play and create space for others. All of which Joniesta is very good at. For example, in the 2014 campaign he was the motm against Croatia at home and changed the game for us against Scotland away, but didn't score or assist a goal. Jack Wilshere gets a lot of grief from some quarters for the same reason but I actually think he's a very good player when fit, despite the lack of goals and assists. Xabi and Iniesta are considered two of the greatest midfielders of all time but their goals/assists record isn't anything to shout about - especially Xabi's, who's probably on par with Andy King. Football is far more nuanced than some try to make out. |
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Post by llannerch on Oct 25, 2016 9:24:59 GMT
Under 23 level is not a barometer for international level. There's an argument that says it is poorly preparing players for the EPL first team so why do we think it should be a conveyor belt straight into our squad?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 11:40:49 GMT
Under 23 level is not a barometer for international level. There's an argument that says it is poorly preparing players for the EPL first team so why do we think it should be a conveyor belt straight into our squad? Because we are a small country with limited resources and the kid obviously has talent. |
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Post by jonnylitts on Oct 25, 2016 13:44:56 GMT
Under 23 level is not a barometer for international level. There's an argument that says it is poorly preparing players for the EPL first team so why do we think it should be a conveyor belt straight into our squad? There is also an argument that because of the money element involved in the EPL, teams are far less willing to take risks, opting for proven international players. With regards to Wilson and Woodburn, he has to 'fight' for a place in a midfield that consists of the current england vice captain, Coutinho, Firmino, Mane, Lallana and (to a much lesser extent Can). Even Joe Allen couldn't get into that side. Yes, Wilson went on loan to Crewe and didn't get in the side but they went down, bottom of the league and are only mid table in league 2. Not exactly ripe to play the type of football he has the skill to do so. I think it's a harsh way of judging either of them given the team that they are trying to get into. If they were both at championship sides and not playing then fair enough but you have to look at the context of where they are now and the team they have to get into. Look at Pogba at Utd, he had to go to Juventus and is now the most expensive player that's been sold... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 14:01:20 GMT
Interesting comments made by Sean Dyche and Danny Mills last night on 5 live that the view on under 23 football is that it doesn't prepare players because it lacks intensity, there are no crowds etc. Clubs prefer to send players to clubs in league one as a way of teaching them the realities of football as well as preparing them for senior premiership football.
I can't help but agree that under 23 football is not a good indicator of readiness for international football.
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Post by vandenhauwe on Oct 25, 2016 15:39:00 GMT
I would hope if ramsey,jonny williams are fit and back in the squad then there would be room for george williams by dropping cotterill who is awful!wilson needs first team football and sharpish!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 18:36:34 GMT
Liverpool are throwing youth players in against Tottenham and Wilson and Woodburn are nowhere to be seen.
Now I am not for one minute saying they aren't going to make it, but really this does suggest they are not ready yet to be involved at international level at this point in time.
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Post by ae15 on Oct 25, 2016 18:40:56 GMT
Liverpool are throwing youth players in against Tottenham and Wilson and Woodburn are nowhere to be seen. Now I am not for one minute saying they aren't going to make it, but really this does suggest they are not ready yet to be involved at international level at this point in time. Klopp loves the bigger players. Wilson and Woodburn are small, Ejaria and Alexander-Arnold are big. No surprise why they're playing. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 19:05:11 GMT
Liverpool are throwing youth players in against Tottenham and Wilson and Woodburn are nowhere to be seen. Now I am not for one minute saying they aren't going to make it, but really this does suggest they are not ready yet to be involved at international level at this point in time. Klopp loves the bigger players. Wilson and Woodburn are small, Ejaria and Alexander-Arnold are big. No surprise why they're playing. Fair comment, although Klopp was playing Woodburn in pre-season friendlies.... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 20:00:53 GMT
Liverpool are throwing youth players in against Tottenham and Wilson and Woodburn are nowhere to be seen. Now I am not for one minute saying they aren't going to make it, but really this does suggest they are not ready yet to be involved at international level at this point in time. Yeah but klopp is obviously a Welsh hating *unt. |
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Post by llannerch on Oct 25, 2016 20:08:38 GMT
Under 23 level is not a barometer for international level. There's an argument that says it is poorly preparing players for the EPL first team so why do we think it should be a conveyor belt straight into our squad? Because we are a small country with limited resources and the kid obviously has talent. "Obviously" at under 23 level, yes, I agree. It's not so obvious he has what it takes at international level though. Would, of course, love to be proved wrong |
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Post by biwmares on Oct 25, 2016 20:14:01 GMT
Liverpool are throwing youth players in against Tottenham and Wilson and Woodburn are nowhere to be seen. Now I am not for one minute saying they aren't going to make it, but really this does suggest they are not ready yet to be involved at international level at this point in time. They have two in the line-up, the rest of the squad tonight are all experienced & certainly not youths. |
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Post by llannerch on Oct 25, 2016 20:16:31 GMT
Interesting comments made by Sean Dyche and Danny Mills last night on 5 live that the view on under 23 football is that it doesn't prepare players because it lacks intensity, there are no crowds etc. Clubs prefer to send players to clubs in league one as a way of teaching them the realities of football as well as preparing them for senior premiership football. I can't help but agree that under 23 football is not a good indicator of readiness for international football. That's the argument I referred to in my earlier post. If there 22 and 23 year olds still playing under 23 football clearly they aren't going to make the grade so aren't going to pove to be effective competition for younger talent. Until Wilson is flying at a League One or Championship full back in his late 20s with 400 first team appearances and rinsing him it's all hypotheticals at the moment in relation to Wales. Which is not the same as saying it's not worth a gamble on chucking him or Woodburn in. But let's not kid ourselves that it's not a gamble |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2016 20:45:49 GMT
Interesting comments made by Sean Dyche and Danny Mills last night on 5 live that the view on under 23 football is that it doesn't prepare players because it lacks intensity, there are no crowds etc. Clubs prefer to send players to clubs in league one as a way of teaching them the realities of football as well as preparing them for senior premiership football. I can't help but agree that under 23 football is not a good indicator of readiness for international football. That's the argument I referred to in my earlier post. If there 22 and 23 year olds still playing under 23 football clearly they aren't going to make the grade so aren't going to pove to be effective competition for younger talent. Until Wilson is flying at a League One or Championship full back in his late 20s with 400 first team appearances and rinsing him it's all hypotheticals at the moment in relation to Wales. Which is not the same as saying it's not worth a gamble on chucking him or Woodburn in. But let's not kid ourselves that it's not a gamble Of course it's a gamble but winners take chances. At the end of the day they must have monitored these kids in training and if they stand out they will get picked..same as any level. |
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Post by llannerch on Oct 25, 2016 22:22:40 GMT
That's the argument I referred to in my earlier post. If there 22 and 23 year olds still playing under 23 football clearly they aren't going to make the grade so aren't going to pove to be effective competition for younger talent. Until Wilson is flying at a League One or Championship full back in his late 20s with 400 first team appearances and rinsing him it's all hypotheticals at the moment in relation to Wales. Which is not the same as saying it's not worth a gamble on chucking him or Woodburn in. But let's not kid ourselves that it's not a gamble Of course it's a gamble but winners take chances. At the end of the day they must have monitored these kids in training and if they stand out they will get picked..same as any level. But they're not getting picked, so not standing out....? |
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Post by jonnylitts on Oct 26, 2016 7:31:30 GMT
Of course it's a gamble but winners take chances. At the end of the day they must have monitored these kids in training and if they stand out they will get picked..same as any level. But they're not getting picked, so not standing out....? Yes, they weren't picked last night but (I think) that's been the only the 2nd opportunity for them to play. He's not going to pick either of them over Mane, Firmino, Coutinho or Lallana and he only picked 3 youngsters last night (a defender - who gerrard has raved about, a box to box midfielder and a midfielder who was klopp's first signing for 5m). Last night they also had competition from Wijnaldum. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 8:25:47 GMT
Of course it's a gamble but winners take chances. At the end of the day they must have monitored these kids in training and if they stand out they will get picked..same as any level. But they're not getting picked, so not standing out....? Woodburn especially seems to have something about him but you really only have to look at that Tammy Abraham on loan at Bristol City *spits*. They were talking on the radio last night about how good he is and sending him out on loan. He is that good that he is a nailed on starter and scoring goals for fun at 19 and had clubs clamouring to take him on loan. If you are an exceptional talent at that age you will get games. So again I should stress that it doesn't mean that these guys aren't going to make. it but by virtue of them not having played any serious senior football yet they are not exceptional enough to justify being fast tracked into an international football senior set up. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 8:30:11 GMT
But they're not getting picked, so not standing out....? Yes, they weren't picked last night but (I think) that's been the only the 2nd opportunity for them to play. He's not going to pick either of them over Mane, Firmino, Coutinho or Lallana and he only picked 3 youngsters last night (a defender - who gerrard has raved about, a box to box midfielder and a midfielder who was klopp's first signing for 5m). Last night they also had competition from Wijnaldum. Given Liverpool's main focus is the premier league I am sure that Klopp wouldn't have a problem picking more youngsters who he thought were ready for competitive football especially if it meant resting the likes of Mane. These two aren't exceptional enough *yet*. Hopefully they will at least make the bench in the next round, I doubt Liverpool have any appetite for winning the league cup. |
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Post by lochnessflowers on Oct 26, 2016 8:34:47 GMT
Interesting comments made by Sean Dyche and Danny Mills last night on 5 live that the view on under 23 football is that it doesn't prepare players because it lacks intensity, there are no crowds etc. Clubs prefer to send players to clubs in league one as a way of teaching them the realities of football as well as preparing them for senior premiership football. I can't help but agree that under 23 football is not a good indicator of readiness for international football. That's the argument I referred to in my earlier post. If there 22 and 23 year olds still playing under 23 football clearly they aren't going to make the grade so aren't going to pove to be effective competition for younger talent. Until Wilson is flying at a League One or Championship full back in his late 20s with 400 first team appearances and rinsing him it's all hypotheticals at the moment in relation to Wales. Which is not the same as saying it's not worth a gamble on chucking him or Woodburn in. But let's not kid ourselves that it's not a gamble This isn't strictly true. For example, Danny Ings (24 years old) has been playing regularly (and well) for the Liverpool U23s this season, and is still considered to have a bright future ahead of him. I know he has experience at Burnley and was playing for the Liverpool first team before his injury, but it does prove that there is some worth in U23 football. Oh, and he's been capped by England. Players develop at different stages of their careers, and we shouldn't completely dismiss the possibility that those in their early 20s playing U23 football could one day become successful at senior level. Having said all that, I do think that Wilson needs some meaningful (ie senior) game-time before we start considering him for Wales on a regular basis. The key is patience. Give it 4-5 years and we'll see where he is then. |
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Post by iot on Oct 26, 2016 8:57:51 GMT
Liverpool are throwing youth players in against Tottenham and Wilson and Woodburn are nowhere to be seen. Now I am not for one minute saying they aren't going to make it, but really this does suggest they are not ready yet to be involved at international level at this point in time. Klopp loves the bigger players. Wilson and Woodburn are small, Ejaria and Alexander-Arnold are big. No surprise why they're playing. This isn't strictly true. He definitely prefers bigger players in CM but has often picked and signed smaller players for the more attacking positions at both Liverpool and Dortmund e.g. Mane, Lallana, Kagawa, Gotze etc. |
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Post by biwmares on Nov 27, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
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