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Post by robin1864 on Sept 14, 2020 17:18:43 GMT
It's the way it should be, but we'd do well to avoid having a Barca situation where leadership is essentially a popularity contest. Having it resting with a private individual has just as many risks as it does perks. Yes - it sounds to me like the issue is with how the fan ownership model is implemented, rather than having a fan ownership model in and of itself. They clearly can develop successful clubs, just look at how they do it in Germany, and it clearly does make the clubs more resilient too. I just think it's a shame if Wrexham do give up on that ideal, however badly individuals will have cocked up in recent years. Pretty much this. It's a shame really, but I think our fans would never go back to fan ownership after the past couple of seasons. We've survived dozens of crooks trying to buy/wreck the club in the past 20 years, but a few precious morons get on the board, we make some poor footballing decisions & everyone wants the club sold up to literally anyone but the trust. Without wishing to sound cliche, we're not in Bury's state and Fylde blew away millions last season but got relegated, so it could be a lot worse than a disappointing season.
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Post by robin1864 on Sept 14, 2020 17:24:12 GMT
Yes - it sounds to me like the issue is with how the fan ownership model is implemented, rather than having a fan ownership model in and of itself. They clearly can develop successful clubs, just look at how they do it in Germany, and it clearly does make the clubs more resilient too. I just think it's a shame if Wrexham do give up on that ideal, however badly individuals will have cocked up in recent years. Nobody is willing to come in to help change things. We didn't even have a proper election for the trust board because we didn't have enough candidates. Tbf when you see the personal abuse board members take online & in person, it's not hard to see why people would be hesitant to put themselves forward for election. Some ex-board members actively avoided eating & drinking in town during their tenure because there's always someone out there who wants to add their two cents.
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Wrexham
Sept 14, 2020 18:12:10 GMT
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 14, 2020 18:12:10 GMT
Nobody is willing to come in to help change things. We didn't even have a proper election for the trust board because we didn't have enough candidates. Tbf when you see the personal abuse board members take online & in person, it's not hard to see why people would be hesitant to put themselves forward for election. Some ex-board members actively avoided eating & drinking in town during their tenure because there's always someone out there who wants to add their two cents. Yeah I completely understand where you're coming from. It perfectly explains why fan ownership is done for us if anything. Nobody will put themselves forward with the mind of changing the system.
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Post by robin1864 on Sept 14, 2020 18:39:24 GMT
Tbf when you see the personal abuse board members take online & in person, it's not hard to see why people would be hesitant to put themselves forward for election. Some ex-board members actively avoided eating & drinking in town during their tenure because there's always someone out there who wants to add their two cents. Yeah I completely understand where you're coming from. It perfectly explains why fan ownership is done for us if anything. Nobody will put themselves forward with the mind of changing the system. There's a myriad of issues, but let's not pretend it's just a board issue - I read redpassion occasionally and all I can take from it is that a section of our fans are incredibly ignorant. All this misunderstanding, lack of communication & ignorant social media drivel just creates a toxic atmosphere, the ending result is nobody competent stands for election and you just end up with retirees, people with very thick skin/no social skills or self-employed people who don't have any professional worries standing for election. Wrexham has turned into a town of malcontents in recent years, people don't precisely know what they want, but they wanted it yesterday. Nowhere can you see this more than our fans right now between the "Not a penny more" crowd & the "Happy clappers".
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Post by conwy10 on Sept 15, 2020 9:48:57 GMT
Is this good news though? If they are legit, yes it is. Fan ownership can only take you so far and so far it has taken us damn near relegation from the National League. We just don't have the personnel or funding to succeed much further than this division right now. It is time to sell up, to the right buyers. It almost took us to the football league a few times too. We’ve had to contend with poor decisions from the board and a shocking manager, but that’s no different to any club. We’ve made mistakes by electing people to the board with no quick and easy way of removing them but under private ownership we have no chance of removing them. If a billionaire wants to pump money in to feed his ego with little else in return I’d be happy as long as it’s successful. But there’s the same chance he’ll change the kit colour, bring a Kazakh student in as head of recruitment, want to change our name to Wrexham Dragons, move us to Manchester and call us Manchester Hams. I’m not happy with the trust or the board but at the end of the day it’s us. It’s people with the best interests of the club at heart. I’m excited at the thought of Wrexham being potentially invested in but also fearful who that person could be.
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Wrexham
Sept 15, 2020 12:12:17 GMT
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 15, 2020 12:12:17 GMT
If they are legit, yes it is. Fan ownership can only take you so far and so far it has taken us damn near relegation from the National League. We just don't have the personnel or funding to succeed much further than this division right now. It is time to sell up, to the right buyers. It almost took us to the football league a few times too. We’ve had to contend with poor decisions from the board and a shocking manager, but that’s no different to any club. We’ve made mistakes by electing people to the board with no quick and easy way of removing them but under private ownership we have no chance of removing them. If a billionaire wants to pump money in to feed his ego with little else in return I’d be happy as long as it’s successful. But there’s the same chance he’ll change the kit colour, bring a Kazakh student in as head of recruitment, want to change our name to Wrexham Dragons, move us to Manchester and call us Manchester Hams. I’m not happy with the trust or the board but at the end of the day it’s us. It’s people with the best interests of the club at heart. I’m excited at the thought of Wrexham being potentially invested in but also fearful who that person could be. You're wrong, the board members weren't elected. Only WST board members are elected. Fan ownership will limit our potential and fear will prevent us from reaching a level much higher than where we are now. Who are the most successful 100% fan owned club in the English system? Wimbledon? They happen to come from a very affluent part of the country and have a few wealthy individuals pumping in plenty of cash with no return. Besides that they all sit in League Two or lower. Is that where our ambitions lie? Balls to that.
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Post by fieldtownred on Sept 15, 2020 12:47:38 GMT
It almost took us to the football league a few times too. We’ve had to contend with poor decisions from the board and a shocking manager, but that’s no different to any club. We’ve made mistakes by electing people to the board with no quick and easy way of removing them but under private ownership we have no chance of removing them. If a billionaire wants to pump money in to feed his ego with little else in return I’d be happy as long as it’s successful. But there’s the same chance he’ll change the kit colour, bring a Kazakh student in as head of recruitment, want to change our name to Wrexham Dragons, move us to Manchester and call us Manchester Hams. I’m not happy with the trust or the board but at the end of the day it’s us. It’s people with the best interests of the club at heart. I’m excited at the thought of Wrexham being potentially invested in but also fearful who that person could be. You're wrong, the board members weren't elected. Only WST board members are elected. Fan ownership will limit our potential and fear will prevent us from reaching a level much higher than where we are now. Who are the most successful 100% fan owned club in the English system? Wimbledon? They happen to come from a very affluent part of the country and have a few wealthy individuals pumping in plenty of cash with no return. Besides that they all sit in League Two or lower. Is that where our ambitions lie? Balls to that. Agreed. Fan ownership has taken us as far as it can. We have 300K in our joint accounts and the trust board have budgeted for a 500K loss this season. It's either choose this investment or go bust. Simple choice really.
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Post by 1gwaunview on Sept 15, 2020 14:50:11 GMT
Perhaps if WST (best interests of the club) could retain a reasonable share in the club after an investor(s) take over, that might be the best of both worlds.
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Wrexham
Sept 15, 2020 15:05:56 GMT
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 15, 2020 15:05:56 GMT
Perhaps if WST (best interests of the club) could retain a reasonable share in the club after an investor(s) take over, that might be the best of both worlds. I'd be all for this personally. A 20% stake perhaps. I think if the board recommend the takeover we will vote it through, and going off their language so far they seem very keen.
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Wrexham
Sept 15, 2020 20:42:01 GMT
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Post by holmesdaleultra on Sept 15, 2020 20:42:01 GMT
Great news.
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Wrexham
Sept 16, 2020 22:59:30 GMT
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Post by conwy10 on Sept 16, 2020 22:59:30 GMT
It almost took us to the football league a few times too. We’ve had to contend with poor decisions from the board and a shocking manager, but that’s no different to any club. We’ve made mistakes by electing people to the board with no quick and easy way of removing them but under private ownership we have no chance of removing them. If a billionaire wants to pump money in to feed his ego with little else in return I’d be happy as long as it’s successful. But there’s the same chance he’ll change the kit colour, bring a Kazakh student in as head of recruitment, want to change our name to Wrexham Dragons, move us to Manchester and call us Manchester Hams. I’m not happy with the trust or the board but at the end of the day it’s us. It’s people with the best interests of the club at heart. I’m excited at the thought of Wrexham being potentially invested in but also fearful who that person could be. You're wrong, the board members weren't elected. Only WST board members are elected. Fan ownership will limit our potential and fear will prevent us from reaching a level much higher than where we are now. Who are the most successful 100% fan owned club in the English system? Wimbledon? They happen to come from a very affluent part of the country and have a few wealthy individuals pumping in plenty of cash with no return. Besides that they all sit in League Two or lower. Is that where our ambitions lie? Balls to that. But a private owner will pump in money why? What will they get or want in return? If a person on the street offers me money I’ll wonder what he’ll gain from it. Also will a private owner just give us endless amounts of money or will we just build up debts to the chairman again? I’m guessing they’ll pay for control and after an initial investment will then manage the finances so it’ll be our money either way. I’m not against selling the club, I see it more as a private club anyway with Harris and his gang in charge, but I also don’t think selling the club will lead to us skyrocketing up the league. This is Wrexham we’re talking about.
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 17, 2020 5:47:19 GMT
You're wrong, the board members weren't elected. Only WST board members are elected. Fan ownership will limit our potential and fear will prevent us from reaching a level much higher than where we are now. Who are the most successful 100% fan owned club in the English system? Wimbledon? They happen to come from a very affluent part of the country and have a few wealthy individuals pumping in plenty of cash with no return. Besides that they all sit in League Two or lower. Is that where our ambitions lie? Balls to that. But a private owner will pump in money why? What will they get or want in return? If a person on the street offers me money I’ll wonder what he’ll gain from it. Also will a private owner just give us endless amounts of money or will we just build up debts to the chairman again? I’m guessing they’ll pay for control and after an initial investment will then manage the finances so it’ll be our money either way. I’m not against selling the club, I see it more as a private club anyway with Harris and his gang in charge, but I also don’t think selling the club will lead to us skyrocketing up the league. This is Wrexham we’re talking about. Flip the question, what do they have to gain by sinking us? Absolutely nothing. We have no assets and are projecting a loss of £500k this season. We could go bust under fan ownership so this is a lifeline. Why does anybody buy a football club? Not every owner does so out of love for the club, in fact most don't. If I had hundreds of millions lying around I know I would absolutely want to get into the game of purchasing a football club, attempting to build it up and making supporters happy. It absolutely isn't a guarantee of us skyrocketing up the leagues but we have a much better chance of doing it when the prospect of big cash injections is on the cards. If the Peter Moore rumour turns out to have substance to it however, he will have us playing Championship football in no time. Surely getting him in is dreamland though.
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Wrexham
Sept 17, 2020 22:21:14 GMT
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Post by conwy10 on Sept 17, 2020 22:21:14 GMT
But a private owner will pump in money why? What will they get or want in return? If a person on the street offers me money I’ll wonder what he’ll gain from it. Also will a private owner just give us endless amounts of money or will we just build up debts to the chairman again? I’m guessing they’ll pay for control and after an initial investment will then manage the finances so it’ll be our money either way. I’m not against selling the club, I see it more as a private club anyway with Harris and his gang in charge, but I also don’t think selling the club will lead to us skyrocketing up the league. This is Wrexham we’re talking about. Flip the question, what do they have to gain by sinking us? Absolutely nothing. We have no assets and are projecting a loss of £500k this season. We could go bust under fan ownership so this is a lifeline. Why does anybody buy a football club? Not every owner does so out of love for the club, in fact most don't. If I had hundreds of millions lying around I know I would absolutely want to get into the game of purchasing a football club, attempting to build it up and making supporters happy. It absolutely isn't a guarantee of us skyrocketing up the leagues but we have a much better chance of doing it when the prospect of big cash injections is on the cards. If the Peter Moore rumour turns out to have substance to it however, he will have us playing Championship football in no time. Surely getting him in is dreamland though. What do the WST gain by relegating us? Things just sometimes don’t work out. How many have bought a football club because it’s fashion in billionaire circles these days. I won’t use worst case examples to prove my point but there’s lots of examples of bad owners, pie in the sky dreams that backfired. There’s also owners pumping in huge money and the reality that football is a competitive sport money doesn’t always mean success hits home and they cut their losses and try to claw back as much of their investment as possible. I hope it works out for us one way or the other. I can’t even imagine Wrexham in the Championship when we’re in the National League though. Step one is getting out of that league. It feels like a lifelong dream to play in League Two again.
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Wrexham
Sept 21, 2020 20:30:06 GMT
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Post by holmesdaleultra on Sept 21, 2020 20:30:06 GMT
Been reading and talk of Yanks getting involved at Wrexham?
Just be very wary of them we have a couple of them as co owners at Palace.
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Post by jimbo82 on Sept 21, 2020 21:40:06 GMT
Been reading and talk of Yanks getting involved at Wrexham? Just be very wary of them we have a couple of them as co owners at Palace. I recall an American took over at Newport and that didn't turn out particularly well..
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Post by barneycat1 on Sept 21, 2020 21:50:24 GMT
The Swansea owners are vultures, be careful.
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 22, 2020 8:08:17 GMT
Thank you for your words of caution, but the American rumours speculate it is people from the same group that same group that are involved with Liverpool. Their former CEO, Peter Moore, is being rather heavily linked with taking up the CEO position with us.
Today the Government have told us that fans will not be allowed into stadiums from the 1st October as originally planned, and the National League have supposedly told teams the season will not start without spectators. If we remain fan owned through this, it will put us in a very dangerous position where we could easily go to the wall like many clubs in this league will. We need this bid to be a genuine one and if so we need to vote it through as it is a lifeline. I feel anyone voting against hearing them out is voting for our demise at this point, so I would plead to any Wrexham fan to please ditch the paranoia and listen to what they have to say.
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Post by robin1864 on Sept 22, 2020 8:20:26 GMT
Thank you for your words of caution, but the American rumours speculate it is people from the same group that same group that are involved with Liverpool. Their former CEO, Peter Moore, is being rather heavily linked with taking up the CEO position with us. Today the Government have told us that fans will not be allowed into stadiums from the 1st October as originally planned, and the National League have supposedly told teams the season will not start without spectators. If we remain fan owned through this, it will put us in a very dangerous position where we could easily go to the wall like many clubs in this league will. We need this bid to be a genuine one and if so we need to vote it through as it is a lifeline. I feel anyone voting against hearing them out is voting for our demise at this point, so I would plead to any Wrexham fan to please ditch the paranoia and listen to what they have to say. Macclesfield weren't fan owned and they've hit the wall. From what I've read, it sounds like a shit deal is on the table. Buying our debt-free club for a quid? With the promise of a £2m cash injection? Eh? The club must be worth £2-3m in its current state. You'd never gift your car away to someone on the promise they'd whack £100 petrol in it and let you watch them drive it around, or your house or anything else for that matter.
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Post by gogdownsouth on Sept 22, 2020 8:23:05 GMT
Thank you for your words of caution, but the American rumours speculate it is people from the same group that same group that are involved with Liverpool. Their former CEO, Peter Moore, is being rather heavily linked with taking up the CEO position with us. Today the Government have told us that fans will not be allowed into stadiums from the 1st October as originally planned, and the National League have supposedly told teams the season will not start without spectators. If we remain fan owned through this, it will put us in a very dangerous position where we could easily go to the wall like many clubs in this league will. We need this bid to be a genuine one and if so we need to vote it through as it is a lifeline. I feel anyone voting against hearing them out is voting for our demise at this point, so I would plead to any Wrexham fan to please ditch the paranoia and listen to what they have to say. Macclesfield weren't fan owned and they've hit the wall. From what I've read, it sounds like a shit deal is on the table. Buying our debt-free club for a quid? With the promise of a £2m cash injection? Eh? The club must be worth £2-3m in its current state. You'd never gift your car away to someone on the promise they'd whack £100 petrol in it and let you watch them drive it around, or your house or anything else for that matter. I appreciate we have the lease on the ground but where do you get the idea the club is worth 2-3m or is that based on the lease? Aren't we just above breaking even for the last 2 seasons to?
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 22, 2020 8:29:53 GMT
Thank you for your words of caution, but the American rumours speculate it is people from the same group that same group that are involved with Liverpool. Their former CEO, Peter Moore, is being rather heavily linked with taking up the CEO position with us. Today the Government have told us that fans will not be allowed into stadiums from the 1st October as originally planned, and the National League have supposedly told teams the season will not start without spectators. If we remain fan owned through this, it will put us in a very dangerous position where we could easily go to the wall like many clubs in this league will. We need this bid to be a genuine one and if so we need to vote it through as it is a lifeline. I feel anyone voting against hearing them out is voting for our demise at this point, so I would plead to any Wrexham fan to please ditch the paranoia and listen to what they have to say. Macclesfield weren't fan owned and they've hit the wall. From what I've read, it sounds like a shit deal is on the table. Buying our debt-free club for a quid? With the promise of a £2m cash injection? Eh? The club must be worth £2-3m in its current state. You'd never gift your car away to someone on the promise they'd whack £100 petrol in it and let you watch them drive it around, or your house or anything else for that matter. Where does the money go though? Straight to the WST who will inevitably pay the money back into Wrexham AFC! What is the point in having a supporters trust worth a few million? This is a wholly different situation than what you are proposing. Our club is a car that is so run down it is worth nothing but a few tenners for scrap metal, and someone is offering to get the world's best engineers on the case to buy new parts and get it running to a speed where it could outdo a rally car and the previous owners still get to drive this car! We will go bust without a new owner. I'm not selling sell to anyone but we need to sell as our survival is at stake.
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Post by robin1864 on Sept 22, 2020 8:31:18 GMT
Macclesfield weren't fan owned and they've hit the wall. From what I've read, it sounds like a shit deal is on the table. Buying our debt-free club for a quid? With the promise of a £2m cash injection? Eh? The club must be worth £2-3m in its current state. You'd never gift your car away to someone on the promise they'd whack £100 petrol in it and let you watch them drive it around, or your house or anything else for that matter. I appreciate we have the lease on the ground but where do you get the idea the club is worth 2-3m or is that based on the lease? Aren't we just above breaking even for the last 2 seasons to? £2-3m from the fact we're debt free, have a lease on the ground, the Groves, a reasonable position within the football pyramid and our annual turnover. Above breaking even is still running at a profit, unless we've got creative accountants. Most football clubs are running at a loss so buying for a quid is far more attractive. A lot of things have been said about this board, but they're genuinely the biggest set of mugs if we hand the club over for nothing.
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 22, 2020 8:34:11 GMT
I appreciate we have the lease on the ground but where do you get the idea the club is worth 2-3m or is that based on the lease? Aren't we just above breaking even for the last 2 seasons to? £2-3m from the fact we're debt free, have a lease on the ground, the Groves, a reasonable position within the football pyramid and our annual turnover. Above breaking even is still running at a profit, unless we've got creative accountants. Most football clubs are running at a loss so buying for a quid is far more attractive. A lot of things have been said about this board, but they're genuinely the biggest set of mugs if we hand the club over for nothing. We don't own the Groves and nothing has been built there yet. This year we are projected a £500k loss and that did not take into account there being zero football played for months, which is a very real possibility.
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Post by gogdownsouth on Sept 22, 2020 8:35:20 GMT
I appreciate we have the lease on the ground but where do you get the idea the club is worth 2-3m or is that based on the lease? Aren't we just above breaking even for the last 2 seasons to? £2-3m from the fact we're debt free, have a lease on the ground, the Groves, a reasonable position within the football pyramid and our annual turnover. Above breaking even is still running at a profit, unless we've got creative accountants. Most football clubs are running at a loss so buying for a quid is far more attractive. A lot of things have been said about this board, but they're genuinely the biggest set of mugs if we hand the club over for nothing. But we are also projected to lose half a million this season with not enough in the bank to cover it and in light of recent announcements regarding fans I suspect it'll be a lot more. As much as we don't like it COVID has massively changed the finances of the club and I think to value us at 2-3 million seems far to high
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Post by robin1864 on Sept 22, 2020 8:37:18 GMT
Macclesfield weren't fan owned and they've hit the wall. From what I've read, it sounds like a shit deal is on the table. Buying our debt-free club for a quid? With the promise of a £2m cash injection? Eh? The club must be worth £2-3m in its current state. You'd never gift your car away to someone on the promise they'd whack £100 petrol in it and let you watch them drive it around, or your house or anything else for that matter. Where does the money go though? Straight to the WST who will inevitably pay the money back into Wrexham AFC! What is the point in having a supporters trust worth a few million? This is a wholly different situation than what you are proposing. Our club is a car that is so run down it is worth nothing but a few tenners for scrap metal, and someone is offering to get the world's best engineers on the case to buy new parts and get it running to a speed where it could outdo a rally car and the previous owners still get to drive this car! We will go bust without a new owner. I'm not selling sell to anyone but we need to sell as our survival is at stake. I'd rather the trust held onto or invested it and remained in the background continuing to run charity events etc as a safeguard for the club in the event that the club is bought back by the fans in the future - rather than going back 20 years after Mr Wrexham gets fed up and sells us off to less credible owners when he gets bored.
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 22, 2020 8:46:47 GMT
Where does the money go though? Straight to the WST who will inevitably pay the money back into Wrexham AFC! What is the point in having a supporters trust worth a few million? This is a wholly different situation than what you are proposing. Our club is a car that is so run down it is worth nothing but a few tenners for scrap metal, and someone is offering to get the world's best engineers on the case to buy new parts and get it running to a speed where it could outdo a rally car and the previous owners still get to drive this car! We will go bust without a new owner. I'm not selling sell to anyone but we need to sell as our survival is at stake. I'd rather the trust held onto or invested it and remained in the background continuing to run charity events etc as a safeguard for the club in the event that the club is bought back by the fans in the future - rather than going back 20 years after Mr Wrexham gets fed up and sells us off to less credible owners when he gets bored. No one in their right mind would stump up that cash for it to not be invested in the club, so it would mean we would remain as a fan-owned enterprise. In 20 years time we would be known as AFC Wrexham, playing in the Welsh 2nd tier.
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Post by robin1864 on Sept 22, 2020 8:57:20 GMT
I'd rather the trust held onto or invested it and remained in the background continuing to run charity events etc as a safeguard for the club in the event that the club is bought back by the fans in the future - rather than going back 20 years after Mr Wrexham gets fed up and sells us off to less credible owners when he gets bored. No one in their right mind would stump up that cash for it to not be invested in the club, so it would mean we would remain as a fan-owned enterprise. In 20 years time we would be known as AFC Wrexham, playing in the Welsh 2nd tier. So private investors can and should take liberties when it comes to dealing with co-operative societies? I get the club is projected significant losses and it could put us in a difficult spot, but we've invested 2 million ourselves as fans since taking on the club and we're meant to just hand it over without anything in return? Oh how grateful we peasants are for a knight in shining armour, let's do some more toadying around.
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 22, 2020 9:11:22 GMT
No one in their right mind would stump up that cash for it to not be invested in the club, so it would mean we would remain as a fan-owned enterprise. In 20 years time we would be known as AFC Wrexham, playing in the Welsh 2nd tier. So private investors can and should take liberties when it comes to dealing with co-operative societies? Don't twist my words.
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Post by robin1864 on Sept 22, 2020 9:19:38 GMT
So private investors can and should take liberties when it comes to dealing with co-operative societies? Don't twist my words. There's no word twisting involved. We're expected to bow down in deference because we're just fans and money means nothing to us, not some moneybags investor counting every penny is essentially the gist of what you've suggested.
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 22, 2020 9:27:59 GMT
There's no word twisting involved. We're expected to bow down in deference because we're just fans and money means nothing to us, not some moneybags investor counting every penny is essentially the gist of what you've suggested. You did and you know you did. I think we're done here.
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Post by robin1864 on Sept 22, 2020 9:44:43 GMT
There's no word twisting involved. We're expected to bow down in deference because we're just fans and money means nothing to us, not some moneybags investor counting every penny is essentially the gist of what you've suggested. You did and you know you did. I think we're done here. No need to cry off fella, just replying as I see it. You seem to be under the impression the trust should just hand everything over to the club and our new independently wealthy owners and expect nothing in return, rather than remain as a minority shareholder, a group that runs community initiatives for the club or as a future safeguard with money in the bank ready to step in. It's certainly not sexy, but it's a damn sight better than going back to a Pryce to Hamilton scenario where fans are disorganised and penniless again.
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