Toshack

[parklife]

Sad news, really hope he pulls through

[iantov]

Hope that the Big Man and Welsh legend pulls through

[welshrover]

Feb 28, 2022 18:16:02 GMT iantov said:

Hope that the Big Man and Welsh legend pulls through

The problem is when it gets reported on the EBC it will all be about when he played for Liverpool not Wales.

[njdragon]

has there been a better welsh, club manager? ever?

[insertname]

Every time I see this thread bounce to the top my heart skips a beat. We all have to go some time I guess but to me, with what’s going on elsewhere in the world having such a famous Welsh footballing name pass right now would be a real kick in the teeth. Im just hoping the lack of update is good news. Hang in there Tosh!

[manulike]

Get well soon, Tosh!

[jbt95]

His son Cameron has been appointed no2 at Leeds.

Hopefully this means John is out of the worst of it.

[dai]

Seems to be promising news today:

[insertname]

Good stuff 🙂

[texan]

Out of intensive care today, good news.

[insertname]

Good lad Tosh

[CrackityJones]

Great news

[quetzal]

I see the FAW and the players who played under Toshack for Wales and Speed just giving Gary Speed all the credit. I’m just not hearing any praise for Tosh and Flynn from within the camp. It’s obvious they planted the seeds. Gary a great guy of course. We love him. He brought professionalism and a vision.

Maybe Tosh just rubs people up the wrong way.

[mrpicton79]

Ah the Tosh debate again.

I'm pretty clear on this. I'm happy to give Tosh a little bit of credit, but he's emphatically lower down the list than all our subsequent managers for me.

I remember listening to a podcast with Owain Tudur Jones and Ashley Williams not so long ago, and of course stories about the Tosh era surfaced. Amusing as they were the whole setup back then sounded completely disorganised and utterly shambolic, exactly as I imagined it to be.

He just didn't have a good relationship with the players and that was never going to yield results for us. The Speed era was where the big changes happened that laid the foundations for our recent success imo.

All the Tosh-lovers gonna come out the woodwork to defend him now I suppose. Just my 2c.

[Dubai Reds]

I'd give him and Flynn some credit and foresight to bring through a lot of the youngsters and fast track at the time and have certainly benefitted by them all having 50+ caps. BUT did we have any better options?


The only "Key" senior players we had were Bellamy, Davies, Carl's, Ricketts, Gabbidon, James Collins and Koumas.
The rest of our established squad players (mid to late 20s) were Danny Collins, Steve Evans, Chris Llewellyn, Freddie Eastwood and Jermaine Easter!

Don't think any of the also-rans would be near the current squad apart who are the equivalent today to the likes of Bradshaw, Joe Jacobsen, Isgrove, Hedges, Doidge, Elis Harrison etc

[toshfan]

At the time, Toshack came under attack for not playing Robbie Savage.
More generally, the appointment of Flynn was a master stroke. Toshack was clear that Wales needed to change the way it played and create a pool of players. My goodness 2004 to 2010 delivered.

Jun 7, 2022 6:35:53 GMT Dubai Reds said:

I'd give him and Flynn some credit and foresight to bring through a lot of the youngsters and fast track at the time and have certainly benefitted by them all having 50+ caps. BUT did we have any better options?


The only "Key" senior players we had were Bellamy, Davies, Carl's, Ricketts, Gabbidon, James Collins and Koumas.
The rest of our established squad players (mid to late 20s) were Danny Collins, Steve Evans, Chris Llewellyn, Freddie Eastwood and Jermaine Easter!

Don't think any of the also-rans would be near the current squad apart who are the equivalent today to the likes of Bradshaw, Joe Jacobsen, Isgrove, Hedges, Doidge, Elis Harrison etc

[toshfan]

Jun 7, 2022 4:43:47 GMT quetzal said:

I see the FAW and the players who played under Toshack for Wales and Speed just giving Gary Speed all the credit. I’m just not hearing any praise for Tosh and Flynn from within the camp. It’s obvious they planted the seeds. Gary a great guy of course. We love him. He brought professionalism and a vision.

Maybe Tosh just rubs people up the wrong way.

Thank you for posting this. The airbrushing that took place during the past couple of days is at a level I have not seen before. The polarising nature of #TheToshackYears is well known. I am well aware that there are many that take the opposite view to me but even I have been taken aback by the latest airbrushing.

It does not have to be an either/or when discussing the Toshack and Speed tenures. The latter delivered belief and intensity. The players loved him. He had the dressing room in a way that Toshack clearly did not. But Toshack inherited a football nation heading for its knees, an aging squad and an unsustainable brand of football. Toshack left a European football nation and the most golden platform in my lifetime. Toshack had the crocodile skin to make the changes that none of his predecessors did. His contribution to our cause was the most selfless I have known in international football.

[morg]

I just remember Gould... In particular a game at the Arms Park v Turkey... 0-0 I believe. Remember the warm up. Vinnie Jones crossing balls into the box and 4 or 5 others trying to get on the end of them. Sunday morning dahn Hackney Marshes stuff.. the reign that brought our first XI defeat to Leyton Orient. That was rock bottom in my opinion. Road generally upwards after that inc Sparky and defo inc Tosh and Flynn.. Always compare the Orient result with a 1-0 away win against a very talented and motivated Basque XI as a marker as to how far we'd come.

[iot]

My opinion on Tosh has changed slightly. I used to think the players were at fault - particularly those that retired early, and assumed it was because they were sulking about his punditry and comments about Hughes + there were stories that he had strict rules on diet and that some of them were not on board with it. But I've heard so many anecdotes from a range of former players now, mostly ones that never fell out with him such as Gabiddon, that just makes it clear it was a completely amateurish setup with old school practices, no sports science, dated training exercises, drinking etc. which just did not breed confidence in the team.

He deserves praise for capping players so early, although we'll never be able to say whether we were just fortunate and happened to have had a really good crop coming through around the same time, and other managers would have selected them too.

[toshfan]

Jun 7, 2022 8:47:41 GMT iot said:

My opinion on Tosh has changed slightly. I used to think the players were at fault - particularly those that retired early, and assumed it was because they were sulking about his punditry and comments about Hughes + there were stories that he had strict rules on diet and that some of them were not on board with it. But I've heard so many anecdotes from a range of former players now, mostly ones that never fell out with him such as Gabiddon, that just makes it clear it was a completely amateurish setup with old school practices, no sports science, dated training exercises, drinking etc. which just did not breed confidence in the team.

My biggest surprise listening to Toshack is that he is a coaching sceptic. I was taken aback when I heard that. I objectively accept that some players would struggle with that. I objectively acknowledge the views of Gabbidon and Simon Davies. Your reference to "drinking" is a new one though. Who has made that claim? In the range of former players, what impression did Carl Robinson's comments have on you?

He deserves praise for capping players so early, although we'll never be able to say whether we were just fortunate and happened to have had a really good crop coming through around the same time, and other managers would have selected them too.

The appointment of Flynn was not a key variable then? Or the decision to give him overarching responsibility for youth development not a key variable? Hal Robson-Kanu would have come through anyway, right?

Without question Toshack prioritised 2 things in a way that none of his predecessors did. (1) Creating a much bigger pool of players and the youth revolution was a key part of that. (2) He changed us from being a British up & at em side to a European one that plays possession. Both 1 and 2 were delivered and they left a golden platform. I saw a performance from Wales in the 2-1 loss out in Russia in 2008 that I had never seen before. No, that would not have happened whoever the manager was.

[jimexotic]

Post Gould you can credit anyone involved in the set up to a certain degree, they've all been part of the journey. We thought 2016 was amazing but it felt like that was going to be all we had and normal service would be resumed. 6 years on and normal service is qualifying for tournaments and more young talent emerging.

[toshfan]

Jun 7, 2022 9:03:47 GMT jimexotic said:

Post Gould you can credit anyone involved in the set up to a certain degree, they've all been part of the journey. We thought 2016 was amazing but it felt like that was going to be all we had and normal service would be resumed. 6 years on and normal service is qualifying for tournaments and more young talent emerging.

Yes and No. What legacy do you believe that Sparky left as manager?

[Dubai Reds]

Jun 7, 2022 8:47:41 GMT iot said:

My opinion on Tosh has changed slightly. I used to think the players were at fault - particularly those that retired early, and assumed it was because they were sulking about his punditry and comments about Hughes + there were stories that he had strict rules on diet and that some of them were not on board with it. But I've heard so many anecdotes from a range of former players now, mostly ones that never fell out with him such as Gabiddon, that just makes it clear it was a completely amateurish setup with old school practices, no sports science, dated training exercises, drinking etc. which just did not breed confidence in the team.

He deserves praise for capping players so early, although we'll never be able to say whether we were just fortunate and happened to have had a really good crop coming through around the same time, and other managers would have selected them too.

That's was my point, did we have any choice but to bring that crop through at that point in time? I believe they would have been selected on merit, they just happened to be in their teens!

A lot was down to Brian Flynn and Osian Roberts at younger grades to scout all the eligible players and get them into the pathway early and capped quickly. This foresight allowed them to become experienced key / squad players 10+ years down the line which has been the core to our success.

We have been fortunate that the conveyor system has continued since 2018 with several of the squad in the early 20s, and all they have known is Euro2016, a missed opportunity for WC2018 (on the periphery/training camps), Euro 2020, Nations League A, and now WC 2022. Once Bale, Ramsey, Allen, Gunter and Hennessey move on, we have enough experience in the squad collectively. A lot of key members of our current squad will still be around for Euro 2032!

[morg]

Jun 7, 2022 9:06:09 GMT toshfan said:

Jun 7, 2022 9:03:47 GMT jimexotic said:

Post Gould you can credit anyone involved in the set up to a certain degree, they've all been part of the journey. We thought 2016 was amazing but it felt like that was going to be all we had and normal service would be resumed. 6 years on and normal service is qualifying for tournaments and more young talent emerging.

Yes and No. What legacy do you believe that Sparky left as manager?

I'd say he left us better than he found us. He made us competitive again. Made us hard to beat. He was starting from a really low point. Start of that Euro 2004 qualification campaign 12 points out of 12 inc beating Italy was a similar feeling to the last 10 years. Went on a bit too long, didn't bring through youth but was definitely an upward trajectory.

[toshfan]

Jun 7, 2022 9:21:57 GMT morg said:

Jun 7, 2022 9:06:09 GMT toshfan said:

Yes and No. What legacy do you believe that Sparky left as manager?

I'd say he left us better than he found us. He made us competitive again. Made us hard to beat. He was starting from a really low point. Start of that Euro 2004 qualification campaign 12 points out of 12 inc beating Italy was a similar feeling to the last 10 years. Went on a bit too long, didn't bring through youth but was definitely an upward trajectory.

I agree that Sparky made us harder to beat. His win record with the 1st 11 players he had was poor. Whether he left us in better shape than he inherited, I'd marginally disagree because the players were older and too little was done on player development. What happened after those 12 points in 4 games?

[quetzal]

Jun 7, 2022 9:21:57 GMT morg said:

Jun 7, 2022 9:06:09 GMT toshfan said:

Yes and No. What legacy do you believe that Sparky left as manager?

I'd say he left us better than he found us. He made us competitive again. Made us hard to beat. He was starting from a really low point. Start of that Euro 2004 qualification campaign 12 points out of 12 inc beating Italy was a similar feeling to the last 10 years. Went on a bit too long, didn't bring through youth but was definitely an upward trajectory.

Sparky was a nightmare for us. He had the players too. Delaney, Bellamy, Giggs, Speed, Hartson. Anyway Tosh and Flynn did get a lot of credit in 2016. Maybe it’s just a time thing in the media. Thinking of it I hadn’t heard Osian’s name mentioned much either.

[mrpicton79]

With regards the young players who were "brought through" at the time... The masterminds of Tosh/Flynn didn't create Bale, Ramsey, Gunter, Hennessey, Collison et al in a lab somewhere. They were fortunate that they were there as promising youngsters and with the privilege of being in charge of the national setup they had the honour of picking them.

There's the opposite view with Tosh that he actually had all the resources he wanted and a pretty good quality of player available to him, and he achieved nothing whatsoever with what he was given. I have a suspicion he could still be there now and we'd still be awaiting qualification for our first major tournament.

[morg]

Jun 7, 2022 10:09:39 GMT toshfan said:

Jun 7, 2022 9:21:57 GMT morg said:

I'd say he left us better than he found us. He made us competitive again. Made us hard to beat. He was starting from a really low point. Start of that Euro 2004 qualification campaign 12 points out of 12 inc beating Italy was a similar feeling to the last 10 years. Went on a bit too long, didn't bring through youth but was definitely an upward trajectory.

I agree that Sparky made us harder to beat. His win record with the 1st 11 players he had was poor. Whether he left us in better shape than he inherited, I'd marginally disagree because the players were older and too little was done on player development. What happened after those 12 points in 4 games?

Yep, our qualification fell away. Seem to remember that we were unlucky with the postponement of the Serbia game and by the time we got to Finland at home we were Sh@t scared of suspensions. Insipid performance against Russia at home in play off too. We had a bare 11 back then didn't we? Speed at left back most of the time because no alternative. Hughes era at the time definitely felt like improvement. Yes, it kicked on in earnest after that, but overall I'd say it was positive yes.

[mrpicton79]

Jun 7, 2022 10:09:39 GMT toshfan said:

Jun 7, 2022 9:21:57 GMT morg said:

I'd say he left us better than he found us. He made us competitive again. Made us hard to beat. He was starting from a really low point. Start of that Euro 2004 qualification campaign 12 points out of 12 inc beating Italy was a similar feeling to the last 10 years. Went on a bit too long, didn't bring through youth but was definitely an upward trajectory.

I agree that Sparky made us harder to beat. His win record with the 1st 11 players he had was poor. Whether he left us in better shape than he inherited, I'd marginally disagree because the players were older and too little was done on player development. What happened after those 12 points in 4 games?

After those 12 points we did indeed struggle abjectly, just as we did throughout Toshack's six-year tenure.

I haven't even mentioned the highly questionable appointment of Dean Saunders to the coaching staff. I love Deano to bits but I'd have huge reservations letting him near the local pub team just down the road from me.

[underwood]

The culture & spirit was started off by Speed & continued by Coleman. Giggs was wise not to derail it & in fact has arguably done more to introduce large swathes of the current squad to international football.
Everything has blossomed under Page though, who gets everything about Together Stronger & I see a squad now on a par with 2016 in terms of spirit & bond.