Toshack

[mrpicton79]

Jun 7, 2022 8:47:41 GMT iot said:

My opinion on Tosh has changed slightly. I used to think the players were at fault - particularly those that retired early, and assumed it was because they were sulking about his punditry and comments about Hughes + there were stories that he had strict rules on diet and that some of them were not on board with it. But I've heard so many anecdotes from a range of former players now, mostly ones that never fell out with him such as Gabiddon, that just makes it clear it was a completely amateurish setup with old school practices, no sports science, dated training exercises, drinking etc. which just did not breed confidence in the team.

He deserves praise for capping players so early, although we'll never be able to say whether we were just fortunate and happened to have had a really good crop coming through around the same time, and other managers would have selected them too.

That's it right there. Anyone else needing their epiphany like iot just listen to the players involved at the time, they paint the picture of how it was during the Tosh era.

[quetzal]

After Wales beat Belgium at Euro 2016 I heard Stan Collymore on the radio say that Wales U21 2-2 draw against in England in 2008 at Villa Park was the best style of play he’d ever witnessed from a British side in his lifetime and he knew something special was going on. Ramsey, Vokes, Church, Taylor, King, Allen and Macdonald were in that squad. Flynny and Tosh copied the Spanish and Portuguese method. Bring them through together. Worked out for Spain that’s for sure. But anyway like I said in my last post, 2016 they got a fair amount of credit. This time the ex players, FAW and media have gone for the Gary Speed narrative. Gary had the vision.

[iot]

Jun 7, 2022 8:58:25 GMT toshfan said:

Jun 7, 2022 8:47:41 GMT iot said:

My opinion on Tosh has changed slightly. I used to think the players were at fault - particularly those that retired early, and assumed it was because they were sulking about his punditry and comments about Hughes + there were stories that he had strict rules on diet and that some of them were not on board with it. But I've heard so many anecdotes from a range of former players now, mostly ones that never fell out with him such as Gabiddon, that just makes it clear it was a completely amateurish setup with old school practices, no sports science, dated training exercises, drinking etc. which just did not breed confidence in the team.

My biggest surprise listening to Toshack is that he is a coaching sceptic. I was taken aback when I heard that. I objectively accept that some players would struggle with that. I objectively acknowledge the views of Gabbidon and Simon Davies. Your reference to "drinking" is a new one though. Who has made that claim? In the range of former players, what impression did Carl Robinson's comments have on you?

He deserves praise for capping players so early, although we'll never be able to say whether we were just fortunate and happened to have had a really good crop coming through around the same time, and other managers would have selected them too.

The appointment of Flynn was not a key variable then? Or the decision to give him overarching responsibility for youth development not a key variable? Hal Robson-Kanu would have come through anyway, right?

Without question Toshack prioritised 2 things in a way that none of his predecessors did. (1) Creating a much bigger pool of players and the youth revolution was a key part of that. (2) He changed us from being a British up & at em side to a European one that plays possession. Both 1 and 2 were delivered and they left a golden platform. I saw a performance from Wales in the 2-1 loss out in Russia in 2008 that I had never seen before. No, that would not have happened whoever the manager was.

"Your reference to "drinking" is a new one though. Who has made that claim?"

I think it was Gabbidon who said that a few of the players would just be out in the sun drinking most of the time during the away against Cyprus and Toshack had a very care-free attitude towards it. Tosh himself would spend a lot of time on those away games drinking wine and sharing stories with journalists, so I understand. 

Re Carl Robinson, I took it as him being kind and appreciated that he won most of his caps under Tosh. 

[toshfan]

Jun 7, 2022 11:16:02 GMT iot said:

Re Carl Robinson, I took it as him being kind and appreciated that he won most of his caps under Tosh.

After listening to the following does the above remain your view?
youtu.be/o-z8eeU0nUA

[bale-droed]

Jun 7, 2022 4:43:47 GMT quetzal said:

I see the FAW and the players who played under Toshack for Wales and Speed just giving Gary Speed all the credit. I’m just not hearing any praise for Tosh and Flynn from within the camp. It’s obvious they planted the seeds. Gary a great guy of course. We love him. He brought professionalism and a vision.

Maybe Tosh just rubs people up the wrong way.

It’s because as we all know Tosh deserves 0 credit

As time moves on he gets more because of the “ He played youngsters blah blah blah “ the truth is when he was playing Bale, Ramsey, Wayne and evening Gunter they were the best available options at the time it’s that simple. Wayne had broken the efl record for longest time without conceding , Bale was the most expensive transfer in the Welsh team followed by Ramsey. Everyone forgets Tosh’s I’ll throw shit cluelessly and see what happens. Mark Bradley? Steve Evans ? List goes on and on and on he was the worst manager in Welsh history after Gould. Look at where he went after Wales the football world outside Wales certainly didn’t think he did a good job

[conwy10]

Not sure how this will come across and its not meant in any dark way, could it be because Speed passed away?

All the former managers made their own contribution to this... Toshack shifted away the ones who couldn't help bring through the next generation and gave them their debuts and apprenticeship in many ways, Speed added the professionalism and the direction, Coleman bought it all together and got us over the line, Giggs made us more offensive and bought in some players. Behind the scenes Osian Roberts and Brian Flynn had massive influence too.

I'd say Speed had the biggest influence but many contributed. In terms of Toshack imagine 16 year old Bale, Gunter, Hennessey and Ramsey sharing a changing room with Robbie Savage.

[mrpicton79]

Jun 7, 2022 12:26:21 GMT conwy10 said:

Not sure how this will come across and its not meant in any dark way, could it be because Speed passed away?

All the former managers made their own contribution to this... Toshack shifted away the ones who couldn't help bring through the next generation and gave them their debuts and apprenticeship in many ways, Speed added the professionalism and the direction, Coleman bought it all together and got us over the line, Giggs made us more offensive and bought in some players. Behind the scenes Osian Roberts and Brian Flynn had massive influence too.

I'd say Speed had the biggest influence but many contributed. In terms of Toshack imagine 16 year old Bale, Gunter, Hennessey and Ramsey sharing a changing room with Robbie Savage.

Yup. You could argue it was an opportunity missed. All the knowledge and experience those senior players could have passed on to the developing youngsters. We could have actually achieved something back then. Under Toshack. Madness.

[njdragon]

The difference between the tosh years vs the speed ones just listen to
Ash and Owain talk about Tosh
play.acast.com/s/thelongmansfootballworld/14c9911b-2fe0-4ec5-abd9-9a041a586127

without a doubt there was a massive shift to professionalism under Speed. There is a lecture somewhere with him and performance coach Damian Roden where they explain what they did when he took over. I wish i could find it, its fascinating how much they modernised the set up.

Tosh is no man manager either, like speed, coleman and now page. The players played in spite of him not for him.

[dai]

The players are the ones that have played under all the managers, and if they feel Speed 'started' all this, then we should probably believe and agree with them. Some of the football we played under Speed in his short term was brilliant.

Personally, I find that all the Speed talk does a bit of disservice to Chris Coleman. HE is the one who actually got us over the qualifying line, and gave the nation belief that we can do this. I know Speed never gave himself that chance, but that's the way I see it.

[insertname]

Jun 7, 2022 12:12:05 GMT bale-droed said:

Jun 7, 2022 4:43:47 GMT quetzal said:

I see the FAW and the players who played under Toshack for Wales and Speed just giving Gary Speed all the credit. I’m just not hearing any praise for Tosh and Flynn from within the camp. It’s obvious they planted the seeds. Gary a great guy of course. We love him. He brought professionalism and a vision.

Maybe Tosh just rubs people up the wrong way.

It’s because as we all know Tosh deserves 0 credit

As time moves on he gets more because of the “ He played youngsters blah blah blah “ the truth is when he was playing Bale, Ramsey, Wayne and evening Gunter they were the best available options at the time it’s that simple. Wayne had broken the efl record for longest time without conceding , Bale was the most expensive transfer in the Welsh team followed by Ramsey. Everyone forgets Tosh’s I’ll throw shit cluelessly and see what happens. Mark Bradley? Steve Evans ? List goes on and on and on he was the worst manager in Welsh history after Gould. Look at where he went after Wales the football world outside Wales certainly didn’t think he did a good job

We did have a period of success in that era- Bryan Flynn getting on the cusp of qualification with the under 21s. That, arguably, was the catalyst that started everything off as it launched the careers of the young players coming through.

The generation before that was the likes of Kevin Gall, losing in Azerbaijan or wherever it was under Jimmy Shoulder. Then all of a sudden I recall reading in the paper that our chronically shit under 21 team had beaten Sweden 4-0. We beat France shortly after (Ched was a key player for the team) and then it snowballed from there culminating in drawing with England 2-2 and narrowly going out having given them a damn good hiding in everything bar the scoreline. The best were then fast tracked to the senior side and the rest is history.

The debate, of course, is whether it was genius, or patently obvious that we should be capping those players enjoying under 21 success.

Whatever the actual intention the results speak for themselves. The Toshack era was dog rough but the fast tracked players really came to the fore under Speed and then Coleman and so on.

It’s very much been a long term process, some 17 years in the making all told and as such it’s fair to say that all the managers involved played an important part albeit some more by luck than judgement!

[toshfan]

Jun 7, 2022 13:05:10 GMT dai said:

The players are the ones that have played under all the managers, and if they feel Speed 'started' all this, then we should probably believe and agree with them. Some of the football we played under Speed in his short term was brilliant.

Personally, I find that all the Speed talk does a bit of disservice to Chris Coleman. HE is the one who actually got us over the qualifying line, and gave the nation belief that we can do this. I know Speed never gave himself that chance, but that's the way I see it.

You make a very good point about Coleman and the impact of “who started it” discussions on those who actually got us over the line. Of course I am indulging in the discussion but you do make a good point.

Even players like Bellamy have acknowledged the role of Toshack. Players like Carl Robinson have spoken of Toshack in glowing terms.

[toshfan]

Jun 7, 2022 12:12:05 GMT bale-droed said:

It’s because as we all know Tosh deserves 0 credit

“we all know” - oh really? It is all about opinions but totally ridiculous to claim you speak on behalf of Welsh Football when at least 2 on this thread take a different view.

As time moves on he gets more because of the “ He played youngsters blah blah blah “ the truth is when he was playing Bale, Ramsey, Wayne and evening Gunter they were the best available options at the time it’s that simple. Wayne had broken the efl record for longest time without conceding , Bale was the most expensive transfer in the Welsh team followed by Ramsey. Everyone forgets Tosh’s I’ll throw shit cluelessly and see what happens. Mark Bradley? Steve Evans ? List goes on and on and on he was the worst manager in Welsh history after Gould.

Oh so you agreed with him not playing Savage? Or Thatcher? He did have choices and he largely went against public opinion on the 2 names I have given. Well done to him for that.

Look at where he went after Wales the football world outside Wales certainly didn’t think he did a good job

Oh yes, winning titles in Morocco.

[mrpicton79]

Jun 7, 2022 13:56:44 GMT toshfan said:

Jun 7, 2022 12:12:05 GMT bale-droed said:

It’s because as we all know Tosh deserves 0 credit

“we all know” - oh really? It is all about opinions but totally ridiculous to claim you speak on behalf of Welsh Football when at least 2 on this thread take a different view.

As time moves on he gets more because of the “ He played youngsters blah blah blah “ the truth is when he was playing Bale, Ramsey, Wayne and evening Gunter they were the best available options at the time it’s that simple. Wayne had broken the efl record for longest time without conceding , Bale was the most expensive transfer in the Welsh team followed by Ramsey. Everyone forgets Tosh’s I’ll throw shit cluelessly and see what happens. Mark Bradley? Steve Evans ? List goes on and on and on he was the worst manager in Welsh history after Gould.

Oh so you agreed with him not playing Savage? Or Thatcher? He did have choices and he largely went against public opinion on the 2 names I have given. Well done to him for that.

Look at where he went after Wales the football world outside Wales certainly didn’t think he did a good job

Oh yes, winning titles in Morocco.

You are borderline trolling at this point.

Two people on a thread agreeing with an unpopular opinion, one of them called "toshfan", probably isn't the strongest case for your argument.

You think the fact that you idolize the man no matter what may be clouding your judgement a little on this topic?

[iot]

I respect your view on this toshfan. As I said, my opinion on him has changed, but I still think his impact on bringing the next generation through is up for debate. I'm just not sure how much of that we can attribute to him - I genuinely don't know. Obviously the likes of Bale and ramsey would have been selected by everyone, but potentially not as early or as early as a group, thus creating the sense of togetherness we've fed off for years. That 1-0 win out in Azerbaijan comes to mind where the average age was about 22 and it was a real team and character building exercise.

Would other managers have capped the likes of Hennessey and Gunter so young? For some of these players, it was their international appearances that drove them on to bigger things at club level such as Gunter's move to spurs. They may not have had the same careers without that intervention.

So maybe he has had an important role, or maybe it's just a reflection of the lack of alternative options we had at the time. As I say, I genuinely don't know, no one does.

[bale-droed]

Jun 7, 2022 13:56:44 GMT toshfan said:

Jun 7, 2022 12:12:05 GMT bale-droed said:

It’s because as we all know Tosh deserves 0 credit

“we all know” - oh really? It is all about opinions but totally ridiculous to claim you speak on behalf of Welsh Football when at least 2 on this thread take a different view.

As time moves on he gets more because of the “ He played youngsters blah blah blah “ the truth is when he was playing Bale, Ramsey, Wayne and evening Gunter they were the best available options at the time it’s that simple. Wayne had broken the efl record for longest time without conceding , Bale was the most expensive transfer in the Welsh team followed by Ramsey. Everyone forgets Tosh’s I’ll throw shit cluelessly and see what happens. Mark Bradley? Steve Evans ? List goes on and on and on he was the worst manager in Welsh history after Gould.

Oh so you agreed with him not playing Savage? Or Thatcher? He did have choices and he largely went against public opinion on the 2 names I have given. Well done to him for that.

Look at where he went after Wales the football world outside Wales certainly didn’t think he did a good job

Oh yes, winning titles in Morocco.

So predictable. Toshfan.... He didn’t have a phone. He was an international manager like cmon surely at this point you only stick up for him because it’s the name you chose? Winning titles in Morocco that absolutely blew me away! What happened after that? Remind me did he end up managing in one of Europe’s top leagues?

You bring up Savage as if he was a genius for not picking him. Knowing Tosh he probably just forgot about him. Look at all the useless players he gave caps to, players who should’ve been nowhere near the squad how can you defend that? The youngsters thing isn’t genius we know this by the amount he gave caps to that amounted to nothing. He made getting a Welsh cap worthless and ultimately him as manager was worthless and a waste of time if he wasn’t there this generation could’ve qualified for something a lot sooner. 33 caps in 3 years About 70 in total by the end of his time. He had no insight or instinct he was guessing. www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/toshacks-33-cap-wonders-2158782.amp

David Partridge
Glyn Garner
Steve Evans
How did this guy get a cap en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Roberts_(footballer,_born_1980) Tosh never watched any of these play at club level
Tudur-Jones
14 caps to Richard Duffy! Doesn’t that either show A.how stupid Toshsck is? or B. there was no strength in depth and he had no choice and this deserves no credit he was forced to play them?
Davies who made his debut in the same game as Bale look at what one achieved compared to the other Tosh was just taking punts he wasn’t a genius he just saw two youngsters.
Mark Bradley got a cap v Netherlands he was a tier 7 player most of his career

Dropping Thatcher but picking Eastwood. Brilliant

We could do this all day.

[bale-droed]

Also here’s a bonus
Look at the age of debuts here www.transfermarkt.co.uk/john-toshack/debuetanten/trainer/1825/liga/WMQ6/plus/1/sort/zeitraum/page/2

Giving Easter a debut at 27. Could’ve been playing vokes or ched Evans if he was that much of a visionary

Never played Bale forward

Ramsey got his debut after his move to Arsenal 😂

Like WTF do people think Toshack actually achieved

He gave Ash Williams his debut at 24 and Partridge at 26 Tosh looked at them both who were playing at a similar standard club wise and he couldn’t judge character or ability and gave them both caps because he had 0 management skill. He gave Partridge 7 caps. Was the future was he?

[toshfan]

Jun 7, 2022 16:26:23 GMT bale-droed said:

He was an international manager like cmon surely at this point you only stick up for him because it’s the name you chose?

Yeah before he was appointed my log on name on every internet forum was Toshfan and that is the only reason I supported his appointment and believed in his vision from the start and have defended his general tenure since. Well spotted.

Winning titles in Morocco that absolutely blew me away! What happened after that? Remind me did he end up managing in one of Europe’s top leagues?

When he left Morocco, he was 67. At 69 he has a short spell in Azerbaijan. I am not sure what you are expecting at that age?

You bring up Savage as if he was a genius for not picking him.

Genius for that is OTT but he went against public opinion. It is still called out as a mistake. I thought it was the right thing to do and consistent with his own vision of wanting to make us play possession based football.

Look at all the useless players he gave caps to, players who should’ve been nowhere near the squad how can you defend that?

I most certainly do defend casting the net out wide and far and utilising friendlies for their intended purpose. What I did not - and do not - defend was the decision not to reach out to some players like Speedo to come out of retirement as that would have made a difference to Toshack's own vision.

The youngsters thing isn’t genius we know this by the amount he gave caps to that amounted to nothing. He made getting a Welsh cap worthless and ultimately him as manager was worthless and a waste of time if he wasn’t there this generation could’ve qualified for something a lot sooner.

33 caps in 3 years About 70 in total by the end of his time. He had no insight or instinct he was guessing. www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/toshacks-33-cap-wonders-2158782.amp

Genuine thanks for sharing that article. It is really interesting in the context of this debate. Abbo makes no secret of which side of the argument he is on but was never afraid to be critical of Toshack.

You mention players such David Partridge, Glyn Garner, Steve Evans, Stephen Roberts, Owain Tudur-Jones and Richard Duffy. With regards to the last 2, I actually thought that both had a good international future. The former still playing in the Coleman years and, as Abbo himself said, there was something Mark Delaney about Duffy in his early career.

Dropping Thatcher but picking Eastwood. Brilliant

I agreed with the former and the latter made a decent early impression but faded away. Brilliant overplays it.

We could do this all day.

Why not?

[toshfan]

Jun 7, 2022 16:43:51 GMT bale-droed said:

Also here’s a bonus
Look at the age of debuts here www.transfermarkt.co.uk/john-toshack/debuetanten/trainer/1825/liga/WMQ6/plus/1/sort/zeitraum/page/2

Another interesting link. Thank you and very relevant in the context of the thread.

Giving Easter a debut at 27. Could’ve been playing vokes or ched Evans if he was that much of a visionary

Wes Burns had an excellent debut at the age of 27 last week in Poland. What point are you trying to make? The 1st of the 2 pages shows just how many young players he capped. What is your argument here? Too soon or too late?

Never played Bale forward

He was played from an attacking position on the right in 2008 in Russia. Bale went onto have his best games for Speedo and Coleman in that position.

Ramsey got his debut after his move to Arsenal 😂

Why is that funny?

Like WTF do people think Toshack actually achieved

If you have to ask you have not listened to anything those who take a different view to you have said. You have never read Abbo's thoughts. You have never listened to Rob Phillips or to Brian Flynn or to Dean Saunders or to Carl Robinson.

He gave Ash Williams his debut at 24 and Partridge at 26 Tosh looked at them both who were playing at a similar standard club wise and he couldn’t judge character or ability and gave them both caps because he had 0 management skill. He gave Partridge 7 caps. Was the future was he?

Ash joined the Swans at a relatively late stage. It was Brian Flynn who first became aware of his Welsh credentials. What are you trying to say? That they were negligent in not giving him more game time when he was Hednesford or Stockport?

[insertname]

How many caps did Lewin Nyatanga win?! I don’t think he helped himself at times by persisting with some pretty dire players.

I think it’s definitely a fair criticism that he was less surgical and more scatter gun. Also say what you like about Savage but he had many years at the top level after being ostracised, a more illustrious career than the two Carl’s who replaced him. Of course there are two sides to every story but hearing Savage criticise the culture of a Tosh training camp it seems that this has been corroborated by others and after criticising the food and professionalism (which was quite a step down from the Hughes era apparently) he wasn’t invited back. Cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face I feel. However I guess, looking back in the year 2022, we can say that whatever the rights and wrongs of allowing certain players to retire whilst cultivating less talented ones, possibly at the expense of our competitiveness, it all worked out fine in the long run.

[iot]

Jun 7, 2022 16:26:23 GMT bale-droed said:

Jun 7, 2022 13:56:44 GMT toshfan said:

“we all know” - oh really? It is all about opinions but totally ridiculous to claim you speak on behalf of Welsh Football when at least 2 on this thread take a different view.

Oh so you agreed with him not playing Savage? Or Thatcher? He did have choices and he largely went against public opinion on the 2 names I have given. Well done to him for that.

Oh yes, winning titles in Morocco.

So predictable. Toshfan.... He didn’t have a phone. He was an international manager like cmon surely at this point you only stick up for him because it’s the name you chose? Winning titles in Morocco that absolutely blew me away! What happened after that? Remind me did he end up managing in one of Europe’s top leagues?

You bring up Savage as if he was a genius for not picking him. Knowing Tosh he probably just forgot about him. Look at all the useless players he gave caps to, players who should’ve been nowhere near the squad how can you defend that? The youngsters thing isn’t genius we know this by the amount he gave caps to that amounted to nothing. He made getting a Welsh cap worthless and ultimately him as manager was worthless and a waste of time if he wasn’t there this generation could’ve qualified for something a lot sooner. 33 caps in 3 years About 70 in total by the end of his time. He had no insight or instinct he was guessing. www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/toshacks-33-cap-wonders-2158782.amp

David Partridge
Glyn Garner
Steve Evans
How did this guy get a cap en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Roberts_(footballer,_born_1980) Tosh never watched any of these play at club level
Tudur-Jones
14 caps to Richard Duffy! Doesn’t that either show A.how stupid Toshsck is? or B. there was no strength in depth and he had no choice and this deserves no credit he was forced to play them?
Davies who made his debut in the same game as Bale look at what one achieved compared to the other Tosh was just taking punts he wasn’t a genius he just saw two youngsters.
Mark Bradley got a cap v Netherlands he was a tier 7 player most of his career

Dropping Thatcher but picking Eastwood. Brilliant

We could do this all day.

Interesting that you see the 'taking punts' as a criticism, when that's the main thing he can be praised for. It was a period where we didn't have the personnel to compete for qualification after all those retirements, so he cast the net as wide as possible to see who would help us in future, knowing that the vast majority wouldn't be good enough, but giving early experience to the likes of Gunter, Hennessey, HRK, Ash Williams. I hadn't realised he capped that many. Those stats make me think Toshack did do more than just make selection decisions he was forced into, it makes me think there was a more deliberate strategy behind it. 

[mrpicton79]

Jun 7, 2022 17:28:48 GMT iot said:

Jun 7, 2022 16:26:23 GMT bale-droed said:

So predictable. Toshfan.... He didn’t have a phone. He was an international manager like cmon surely at this point you only stick up for him because it’s the name you chose? Winning titles in Morocco that absolutely blew me away! What happened after that? Remind me did he end up managing in one of Europe’s top leagues?

You bring up Savage as if he was a genius for not picking him. Knowing Tosh he probably just forgot about him. Look at all the useless players he gave caps to, players who should’ve been nowhere near the squad how can you defend that? The youngsters thing isn’t genius we know this by the amount he gave caps to that amounted to nothing. He made getting a Welsh cap worthless and ultimately him as manager was worthless and a waste of time if he wasn’t there this generation could’ve qualified for something a lot sooner. 33 caps in 3 years About 70 in total by the end of his time. He had no insight or instinct he was guessing. www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/toshacks-33-cap-wonders-2158782.amp

David Partridge
Glyn Garner
Steve Evans
How did this guy get a cap en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Roberts_(footballer,_born_1980) Tosh never watched any of these play at club level
Tudur-Jones
14 caps to Richard Duffy! Doesn’t that either show A.how stupid Toshsck is? or B. there was no strength in depth and he had no choice and this deserves no credit he was forced to play them?
Davies who made his debut in the same game as Bale look at what one achieved compared to the other Tosh was just taking punts he wasn’t a genius he just saw two youngsters.
Mark Bradley got a cap v Netherlands he was a tier 7 player most of his career

Dropping Thatcher but picking Eastwood. Brilliant

We could do this all day.

Interesting that you see the 'taking punts' as a criticism, when that's the main thing he can be praised for. It was a period where we didn't have the personnel to compete for qualification after all those retirements, so he cast the net as wide as possible to see who would help us in future, knowing that the vast majority wouldn't be good enough, but giving early experience to the likes of Gunter, Hennessey, HRK, Ash Williams. I hadn't realised he capped that many. Those stats make me think Toshack did do more than just make selection decisions he was forced into, it makes me think there was a more deliberate strategy behind it. 

Putting it like that it does sound awfully basic though. If the key to success was as simple as organising as many low-key friendlies as possible, with the purpose of capping as many young players as possible to see what sticks....you'd have to think that every nation that struggles to qualify for major tournaments would be doing it.

[bale-droed]

Jun 7, 2022 17:09:52 GMT toshfan said:

Jun 7, 2022 16:43:51 GMT bale-droed said:

Also here’s a bonus
Look at the age of debuts here www.transfermarkt.co.uk/john-toshack/debuetanten/trainer/1825/liga/WMQ6/plus/1/sort/zeitraum/page/2

Another interesting link. Thank you and very relevant in the context of the thread.

Giving Easter a debut at 27. Could’ve been playing vokes or ched Evans if he was that much of a visionary

Wes Burns had an excellent debut at the age of 27 last week in Poland. What point are you trying to make? The 1st of the 2 pages shows just how many young players he capped. What is your argument here? Too soon or too late?

Never played Bale forward

He was played from an attacking position on the right in 2008 in Russia. Bale went onto have his best games for Speedo and Coleman in that position.

Ramsey got his debut after his move to Arsenal 😂

Why is that funny?

Like WTF do people think Toshack actually achieved

If you have to ask you have not listened to anything those who take a different view to you have said. You have never read Abbo's thoughts. You have never listened to Rob Phillips or to Brian Flynn or to Dean Saunders or to Carl Robinson.

He gave Ash Williams his debut at 24 and Partridge at 26 Tosh looked at them both who were playing at a similar standard club wise and he couldn’t judge character or ability and gave them both caps because he had 0 management skill. He gave Partridge 7 caps. Was the future was he?

Ash joined the Swans at a relatively late stage. It was Brian Flynn who first became aware of his Welsh credentials. What are you trying to say? That they were negligent in not giving him more game time when he was Hednesford or Stockport?

My point with Easter at 27 (And Eastwood perhaps) is that if Tosh was that adamant about developing youth etc then why was Easter playing ? If he was such a great manager would he not of realised he should’ve been playing Evans , Vokes and in comparison to Easter Church? Isn’t that an example of him actually not having a strong knowledge of youth and just picking a player who was clearly never the future. He was 27 playing in either league 1 or 2 and never scored if he was a great visionary why was he not picking the other 3 ahead of Easter? I’m showing the older caps because it shows he was picking anyone at any age devaluing a Welsh cap but ultimately picking who he thought was best not backing youth. My 😂 at Ramsey is because again he gets praised for playing the youngsters yet never looked at Ramsey in the under 21s or 19s and thought “ oooof what a player we’ve got here I better pick him” no He didn’t even get picked when playing for Cardiff Tosh waited for a big team to sign him and thought “Arsenals a good team I better pick him” he didn’t have a clue how good Ramsey was going to be he started picking him when he was the best option he didn’t blood him or anything. I will however admit I’m wrong about Bale attacking as I forgot the Russia game but he did bring on Steve Evans for Edwards that game and 4 minutes later we conceded when there were young defenders who had not yet been near Toshs team further proving he had no clue imo. I’ve read Abbos thoughts and I didn’t like it and I don’t like him. Carl Robinson (who I love for what it’s worth ) would obviously like Tosh. Carl would never of earned all those caps if Toshack hadn’t argued with Savage or actually knew what young players would become good. Flynn wouldn’t criticise Tosh that’s his legacy it would be like Osian being negative about Coleman. I can’t wait to hear people like Bale, Ramsey, Gunter etc talk about Tosh. When it comes to Ash Williams if he was giving caps to 5th tier Steve Evans and Mark Bradley then why not Ash? Because A.He actually couldnt tell Ash was better or would be better than Steve or B. As you said he didn’t know he had a connection but the moment he knew bam have a cap like it’s a tic tac.

I’d like to know what you think about Tosh’s first stint? And I’d like you to tell me who Tosh should’ve been picking ahead of Bale at 17?

[bale-droed]

Jun 7, 2022 17:28:48 GMT iot said:

Jun 7, 2022 16:26:23 GMT bale-droed said:

So predictable. Toshfan.... He didn’t have a phone. He was an international manager like cmon surely at this point you only stick up for him because it’s the name you chose? Winning titles in Morocco that absolutely blew me away! What happened after that? Remind me did he end up managing in one of Europe’s top leagues?

You bring up Savage as if he was a genius for not picking him. Knowing Tosh he probably just forgot about him. Look at all the useless players he gave caps to, players who should’ve been nowhere near the squad how can you defend that? The youngsters thing isn’t genius we know this by the amount he gave caps to that amounted to nothing. He made getting a Welsh cap worthless and ultimately him as manager was worthless and a waste of time if he wasn’t there this generation could’ve qualified for something a lot sooner. 33 caps in 3 years About 70 in total by the end of his time. He had no insight or instinct he was guessing. www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/toshacks-33-cap-wonders-2158782.amp

David Partridge
Glyn Garner
Steve Evans
How did this guy get a cap en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Roberts_(footballer,_born_1980) Tosh never watched any of these play at club level
Tudur-Jones
14 caps to Richard Duffy! Doesn’t that either show A.how stupid Toshsck is? or B. there was no strength in depth and he had no choice and this deserves no credit he was forced to play them?
Davies who made his debut in the same game as Bale look at what one achieved compared to the other Tosh was just taking punts he wasn’t a genius he just saw two youngsters.
Mark Bradley got a cap v Netherlands he was a tier 7 player most of his career

Dropping Thatcher but picking Eastwood. Brilliant

We could do this all day.

Interesting that you see the 'taking punts' as a criticism, when that's the main thing he can be praised for. It was a period where we didn't have the personnel to compete for qualification after all those retirements, so he cast the net as wide as possible to see who would help us in future, knowing that the vast majority wouldn't be good enough, but giving early experience to the likes of Gunter, Hennessey, HRK, Ash Williams. I hadn't realised he capped that many. Those stats make me think Toshack did do more than just make selection decisions he was forced into, it makes me think there was a more deliberate strategy behind it. 

I think a man in his job should’ve been picking Ramsey before he went to Arsenal. If all you pick is youth because that’s all that’s available you can’t be praised for starting a “Youth revolution “. He picked the wrong youth players time and time again. He had no judge of talent. There were times when we left players who had a lot of potential sitting on the bench for a player that had no chance. Look at Rhys Williams. Say what you want about him but he was playing in the championship for a long time he was in our senior squad and we didn’t give him a cap yet everyone else got one just for being a professional. No wonder he switched back to Australia he must’ve thought “ This guy knows nothing”

[conwy10]

Jun 7, 2022 12:39:38 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Jun 7, 2022 12:26:21 GMT conwy10 said:

Not sure how this will come across and its not meant in any dark way, could it be because Speed passed away?

All the former managers made their own contribution to this... Toshack shifted away the ones who couldn't help bring through the next generation and gave them their debuts and apprenticeship in many ways, Speed added the professionalism and the direction, Coleman bought it all together and got us over the line, Giggs made us more offensive and bought in some players. Behind the scenes Osian Roberts and Brian Flynn had massive influence too.

I'd say Speed had the biggest influence but many contributed. In terms of Toshack imagine 16 year old Bale, Gunter, Hennessey and Ramsey sharing a changing room with Robbie Savage.

Yup. You could argue it was an opportunity missed. All the knowledge and experience those senior players could have passed on to the developing youngsters. We could have actually achieved something back then. Under Toshack. Madness.

The opposite really, he was known as acting like an overgrown child. I thought he was class back then but hearing stories he would have been a negative influence.

[iot]

Jun 7, 2022 17:56:09 GMT bale-droed said:

Jun 7, 2022 17:09:52 GMT toshfan said:

Another interesting link. Thank you and very relevant in the context of the thread.

Wes Burns had an excellent debut at the age of 27 last week in Poland. What point are you trying to make? The 1st of the 2 pages shows just how many young players he capped. What is your argument here? Too soon or too late?

He was played from an attacking position on the right in 2008 in Russia. Bale went onto have his best games for Speedo and Coleman in that position.

Why is that funny?

If you have to ask you have not listened to anything those who take a different view to you have said. You have never read Abbo's thoughts. You have never listened to Rob Phillips or to Brian Flynn or to Dean Saunders or to Carl Robinson.

Ash joined the Swans at a relatively late stage. It was Brian Flynn who first became aware of his Welsh credentials. What are you trying to say? That they were negligent in not giving him more game time when he was Hednesford or Stockport?

My point with Easter at 27 (And Eastwood perhaps) is that if Tosh was that adamant about developing youth etc then why was Easter playing ? If he was such a great manager would he not of realised he should’ve been playing Evans , Vokes and in comparison to Easter Church? Isn’t that an example of him actually not having a strong knowledge of youth and just picking a player who was clearly never the future. He was 27 playing in either league 1 or 2 and never scored if he was a great visionary why was he not picking the other 3 ahead of Easter? I’m showing the older caps because it shows he was picking anyone at any age devaluing a Welsh cap but ultimately picking who he thought was best not backing youth. My 😂 at Ramsey is because again he gets praised for playing the youngsters yet never looked at Ramsey in the under 21s or 19s and thought “ oooof what a player we’ve got here I better pick him” no He didn’t even get picked when playing for Cardiff Tosh waited for a big team to sign him and thought “Arsenals a good team I better pick him” he didn’t have a clue how good Ramsey was going to be he started picking him when he was the best option he didn’t blood him or anything. I will however admit I’m wrong about Bale attacking as I forgot the Russia game but he did bring on Steve Evans for Edwards that game and 4 minutes later we conceded when there were young defenders who had not yet been near Toshs team further proving he had no clue imo. I’ve read Abbos thoughts and I didn’t like it and I don’t like him. Carl Robinson (who I love for what it’s worth ) would obviously like Tosh. Carl would never of earned all those caps if Toshack hadn’t argued with Savage or actually knew what young players would become good. Flynn wouldn’t criticise Tosh that’s his legacy it would be like Osian being negative about Coleman. I can’t wait to hear people like Bale, Ramsey, Gunter etc talk about Tosh. When it comes to Ash Williams if he was giving caps to 5th tier Steve Evans and Mark Bradley then why not Ash? Because A.He actually couldnt tell Ash was better or would be better than Steve or B. As you said he didn’t know he had a connection but the moment he knew bam have a cap like it’s a tic tac.

I’d like to know what you think about Tosh’s first stint? And I’d like you to tell me who Tosh should’ve been picking ahead of Bale at 17?

You must have heard the story about how we came across Ashley Williams? Your post suggests you don't. We only came across him after Flynn had been scouting Hennessey for Stockport. Flynn made a query due to Ash's surname, he looked into it and found out he was eligible, but through his mum's side not his dad's! So it was completely coincidental. Pretty sure he was capped almost immediately afterwards.

I think the whole point you make on Eastwood and Easter is quite a weak one. By that logic, you don't think we should have brought in Moore when he was 26 playing for a League 1 side. Eastwood looked like he could have been a quality addition. He did cap church, vokes and evans when they were very young, so again quite a weak point. 

On Ramsey:

'Youth coach Brian Flynn revealed that Ramsey had been purposely held back in the U21s to help qualify for the 2009 UEFA European Under-21 Championship but they lost a close contest to England U21s in the play-offs, where Ramsey himself scored a volley with his weaker foot in the second leg at Villa Park.'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Ramsey#International_career

[iot]

Jun 7, 2022 17:48:16 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Jun 7, 2022 17:28:48 GMT iot said:

Interesting that you see the 'taking punts' as a criticism, when that's the main thing he can be praised for. It was a period where we didn't have the personnel to compete for qualification after all those retirements, so he cast the net as wide as possible to see who would help us in future, knowing that the vast majority wouldn't be good enough, but giving early experience to the likes of Gunter, Hennessey, HRK, Ash Williams. I hadn't realised he capped that many. Those stats make me think Toshack did do more than just make selection decisions he was forced into, it makes me think there was a more deliberate strategy behind it. 

Putting it like that it does sound awfully basic though. If the key to success was as simple as organising as many low-key friendlies as possible, with the purpose of capping as many young players as possible to see what sticks....you'd have to think that every nation that struggles to qualify for major tournaments would be doing it.

Not really, you can only play friendlies during international windows when there aren't competitive games. We only used to play 2 or 3 a year from memory. So those who support Toshack would claim that he sacrificed any short-term hopes during that time to focus on the medium-long term

[hooky]

To be fair Toshack always insisted that the pain of playing loads of youngsters when he had the team would be worth it in the long run, as the experience would help them and we would see the benefit in the future when they qualified for tournaments.

He may have been an old fashioned coach but he blooded so many youngsters on mass and set himself up for a fall by doing so. He played his part even if it was Speed who accelerated the development by modernising things. We always cry about our young players when at premier clubs should go on loan down the divisions to gain experience as that is how you develop. Well Tosh did that at international level

[hooky]

Jun 7, 2022 16:43:51 GMT bale-droed said:

Also here’s a bonus
Look at the age of debuts here www.transfermarkt.co.uk/john-toshack/debuetanten/trainer/1825/liga/WMQ6/plus/1/sort/zeitraum/page/2

Giving Easter a debut at 27. Could’ve been playing vokes or ched Evans if he was that much of a visionary

Never played Bale forward

Ramsey got his debut after his move to Arsenal 😂

Like WTF do people think Toshack actually achieved

He gave Ash Williams his debut at 24 and Partridge at 26 Tosh looked at them both who were playing at a similar standard club wise and he couldn’t judge character or ability and gave them both caps because he had 0 management skill. He gave Partridge 7 caps. Was the future was he?

Never played Bale in an advanced position? Bullshit. You must be Harry Redknapp! Did you not watch Bale as a teenager terrorise Russia on the left wing in Moscow? Tosh and Wales first spotted and utilised his potential. Really its so sad to see blinkered opinions. The English press give Redknapp praise for spotting Bale's potential and moving him forward, Fact is Tosh spotted it 2 years before him and Redknapp was going to sell him to Portsmouth at one time for £2mn!!

[bale-droed]

Jun 7, 2022 19:51:07 GMT hooky said:

Jun 7, 2022 16:43:51 GMT bale-droed said:

Also here’s a bonus
Look at the age of debuts here www.transfermarkt.co.uk/john-toshack/debuetanten/trainer/1825/liga/WMQ6/plus/1/sort/zeitraum/page/2

Giving Easter a debut at 27. Could’ve been playing vokes or ched Evans if he was that much of a visionary

Never played Bale forward

Ramsey got his debut after his move to Arsenal 😂

Like WTF do people think Toshack actually achieved

He gave Ash Williams his debut at 24 and Partridge at 26 Tosh looked at them both who were playing at a similar standard club wise and he couldn’t judge character or ability and gave them both caps because he had 0 management skill. He gave Partridge 7 caps. Was the future was he?

Never played Bale in an advanced position? Bullshit. You must be Harry Redknapp! Did you not watch Bale as a teenager terrorise Russia on the left wing in Moscow? Tosh and Wales first spotted and utilised his potential. Really its so sad to see blinkered opinions. The English press give Redknapp praise for spotting Bale's potential and moving him forward, Fact is Tosh spotted it 2 years before him and Redknapp was going to sell him to Portsmouth at one time for £2mn!!

I’ve already conceded I was wrong about Bale attacking, I’ll hold my hands up I did forget about the Russia away game however and we are going back a long way now the next games after that were Liechtenstein and Germany. Tosh had him back deep. He only played Gareth “out of position” in Russia because of injury and I may be wrong again it’s a long time ago but that campaign Tosh Didn’t give him the same attacking chances (if memory serves correct)

[bale-droed]

Jun 7, 2022 19:41:45 GMT iot said:

Jun 7, 2022 17:56:09 GMT bale-droed said:

My point with Easter at 27 (And Eastwood perhaps) is that if Tosh was that adamant about developing youth etc then why was Easter playing ? If he was such a great manager would he not of realised he should’ve been playing Evans , Vokes and in comparison to Easter Church? Isn’t that an example of him actually not having a strong knowledge of youth and just picking a player who was clearly never the future. He was 27 playing in either league 1 or 2 and never scored if he was a great visionary why was he not picking the other 3 ahead of Easter? I’m showing the older caps because it shows he was picking anyone at any age devaluing a Welsh cap but ultimately picking who he thought was best not backing youth. My 😂 at Ramsey is because again he gets praised for playing the youngsters yet never looked at Ramsey in the under 21s or 19s and thought “ oooof what a player we’ve got here I better pick him” no He didn’t even get picked when playing for Cardiff Tosh waited for a big team to sign him and thought “Arsenals a good team I better pick him” he didn’t have a clue how good Ramsey was going to be he started picking him when he was the best option he didn’t blood him or anything. I will however admit I’m wrong about Bale attacking as I forgot the Russia game but he did bring on Steve Evans for Edwards that game and 4 minutes later we conceded when there were young defenders who had not yet been near Toshs team further proving he had no clue imo. I’ve read Abbos thoughts and I didn’t like it and I don’t like him. Carl Robinson (who I love for what it’s worth ) would obviously like Tosh. Carl would never of earned all those caps if Toshack hadn’t argued with Savage or actually knew what young players would become good. Flynn wouldn’t criticise Tosh that’s his legacy it would be like Osian being negative about Coleman. I can’t wait to hear people like Bale, Ramsey, Gunter etc talk about Tosh. When it comes to Ash Williams if he was giving caps to 5th tier Steve Evans and Mark Bradley then why not Ash? Because A.He actually couldnt tell Ash was better or would be better than Steve or B. As you said he didn’t know he had a connection but the moment he knew bam have a cap like it’s a tic tac.

I’d like to know what you think about Tosh’s first stint? And I’d like you to tell me who Tosh should’ve been picking ahead of Bale at 17?

You must have heard the story about how we came across Ashley Williams? Your post suggests you don't. We only came across him after Flynn had been scouting Hennessey for Stockport. Flynn made a query due to Ash's surname, he looked into it and found out he was eligible, but through his mum's side not his dad's! So it was completely coincidental. Pretty sure he was capped almost immediately afterwards.

I think the whole point you make on Eastwood and Easter is quite a weak one. By that logic, you don't think we should have brought in Moore when he was 26 playing for a League 1 side. Eastwood looked like he could have been a quality addition. He did cap church, vokes and evans when they were very young, so again quite a weak point. 

On Ramsey:

'Youth coach Brian Flynn revealed that Ramsey had been purposely held back in the U21s to help qualify for the 2009 UEFA European Under-21 Championship but they lost a close contest to England U21s in the play-offs, where Ramsey himself scored a volley with his weaker foot in the second leg at Villa Park.'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Ramsey#International_career

I knew Moore or Steve Morison would be brought up. The point on Easter is this. TLDR

He was Shit. 12 caps 0 goals against some very weak teams. Why were those 12 caps not given to a promising young forward if Tosh had that vision?