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Post by oscardelta on Sept 8, 2020 23:17:34 GMT
We're talking about who our first player to 100 caps might be Meanwhile Ronaldo has just scored his 100th international goal for Portugal. Crazy number!!! with 160 plus caps |
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100 caps
Sept 9, 2020 8:27:15 GMT
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Post by cadno on Sept 9, 2020 8:27:15 GMT
We're talking about who our first player to 100 caps might be Meanwhile Ronaldo has just scored his 100th international goal for Portugal. Crazy number!!! with 160 plus caps He's a monster |
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Post by oscardelta on Sept 9, 2020 8:33:51 GMT
Best player I have ever had the pleasure to watch.
Also his character outside of football and the way he treats people whether it has been the random fan who has ran on the pitch for a photo (fan gets a photo) or elsewhere shows he understands what it means to have heroes.
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100 caps
Sept 9, 2020 10:16:29 GMT
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 9, 2020 10:16:29 GMT
For me he's quite a way behind Messi as the 2nd best of all time - but certainly the best no.9 there's ever been for me & his goals record at international level is insane
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 9, 2020 13:13:34 GMT
For me he's quite a way behind Messi as the 2nd best of all time - but certainly the best no.9 there's ever been for me & his goals record at international level is insane In terms of achievements though, Messi has never won a major international tournament which goes in Ronaldo's favour. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 9, 2020 13:36:50 GMT
For me he's quite a way behind Messi as the 2nd best of all time - but certainly the best no.9 there's ever been for me & his goals record at international level is insane In terms of achievements though, Messi has never won a major international tournament which goes in Ronaldo's favour. For me that doesn’t have any bearing on who is the better player. Portugal won that tournament, not Ronaldo. Ronaldo didn’t even play more than a few minutes of that final when it was already 0-0 which shows Portugal had the quality to win without him. Argentina have never shown that promise at any point during Messi’s career. When they reached the final of the 2014 WC tournament, Messi did a great job in a distinctly average team - who were well beaten by the Germans in the final. Truth is, tournament football at international level is quite random & you require a lot of luck to do well at tournaments. If it was all about which teams have the best individuals, Portugal & Argentina would both make the final every single time. The Champions League is probably a better measure of who the consistent top players are, but even then it’s teams and systems that win it not an individual. What separates the two for me, is that if you take a step back and look at the two of their careers as a whole - they are very even for goal scored (Messi actually edges it when you adjust for age), but Messi’s assist numbers across the board dwarf Ronaldo - which is very important when we are talking about who the best player is. You’ll see a lot of people able to pick very specified stats which makes it look like Ronaldo is the better goal scorer - but all you need to do is take a look at their career’s as a whole and you’ll see how they are near-enough even for goals, with Messi having a lot more assists. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 9, 2020 13:40:05 GMT
To corroborate what I’m saying above take a look here and compared season by season: messivsronaldo.net |
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 9, 2020 15:18:35 GMT
In terms of achievements though, Messi has never won a major international tournament which goes in Ronaldo's favour. For me that doesn’t have any bearing on who is the better player. Portugal won that tournament, not Ronaldo. Ronaldo didn’t even play more than a few minutes of that final when it was already 0-0 which shows Portugal had the quality to win without him. Argentina have never shown that promise at any point during Messi’s career. When they reached the final of the 2014 WC tournament, Messi did a great job in a distinctly average team - who were well beaten by the Germans in the final. Truth is, tournament football at international level is quite random & you require a lot of luck to do well at tournaments. If it was all about which teams have the best individuals, Portugal & Argentina would both make the final every single time. The Champions League is probably a better measure of who the consistent top players are, but even then it’s teams and systems that win it not an individual. What separates the two for me, is that if you take a step back and look at the two of their careers as a whole - they are very even for goal scored (Messi actually edges it when you adjust for age), but Messi’s assist numbers across the board dwarf Ronaldo - which is very important when we are talking about who the best player is. You’ll see a lot of people able to pick very specified stats which makes it look like Ronaldo is the better goal scorer - but all you need to do is take a look at their career’s as a whole and you’ll see how they are near-enough even for goals, with Messi having a lot more assists. Achievements with country absolutely have bearing on how great a player was, and he played an important role to get Portugal to that final. I am sure you remember that our game with them was going absolutely nowhere until he rose above the pack to nod that header in. He also scored 2 very important goals against Hungary where his side looked to have given up twice to keep them in the tournament at the group stages. I also think you are being very harsh on the rest of the Argentinian side at the 2014 world cup tournament. They had a team packed with in-form world beaters, such as Angel Di Maria, Javier Mascherano, Sergio Agüero, Ezequiel Lavezzi, Gonzalo Higuaín and Pablo Zabaleta. In fact, I would strongly argue they had more quality in that overall side than that Portuguese side which won the Euros in 2016. Even when Ronaldo went off in that game, you could see him dictating play and taking a very active role from the sidelines. Another point in Ronaldo's favour is that he has succeeded in 3 of the world's top leagues whereas Messi has only succeeded in the one. Ronaldo was also the last player to pick up a Ballon D'Or award from the Premier League which many agree is a tougher league than La Liga when you look at the bottom end of the table. I am not here to argue that one is better than the other but to say Ronaldo is 'quite a way behind Messi' is absurd in my view. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 9, 2020 15:59:22 GMT
For me that doesn’t have any bearing on who is the better player. Portugal won that tournament, not Ronaldo. Ronaldo didn’t even play more than a few minutes of that final when it was already 0-0 which shows Portugal had the quality to win without him. Argentina have never shown that promise at any point during Messi’s career. When they reached the final of the 2014 WC tournament, Messi did a great job in a distinctly average team - who were well beaten by the Germans in the final. Truth is, tournament football at international level is quite random & you require a lot of luck to do well at tournaments. If it was all about which teams have the best individuals, Portugal & Argentina would both make the final every single time. The Champions League is probably a better measure of who the consistent top players are, but even then it’s teams and systems that win it not an individual. What separates the two for me, is that if you take a step back and look at the two of their careers as a whole - they are very even for goal scored (Messi actually edges it when you adjust for age), but Messi’s assist numbers across the board dwarf Ronaldo - which is very important when we are talking about who the best player is. You’ll see a lot of people able to pick very specified stats which makes it look like Ronaldo is the better goal scorer - but all you need to do is take a look at their career’s as a whole and you’ll see how they are near-enough even for goals, with Messi having a lot more assists. Achievements with country absolutely have bearing on how great a player was, and he played an important role to get Portugal to that final. I am sure you remember that our game with them was going absolutely nowhere until he rose above the pack to nod that header in. He also scored 2 very important goals against Hungary where his side looked to have given up twice to keep them in the tournament at the group stages. I also think you are being very harsh on the rest of the Argentinian side at the 2014 world cup tournament. They had a team packed with in-form world beaters, such as Angel Di Maria, Javier Mascherano, Sergio Agüero, Ezequiel Lavezzi, Gonzalo Higuaín and Pablo Zabaleta. In fact, I would strongly argue they had more quality in that overall side than that Portuguese side which won the Euros in 2016. Even when Ronaldo went off in that game, you could see him dictating play and taking a very active role from the sidelines. Another point in Ronaldo's favour is that he has succeeded in 3 of the world's top leagues whereas Messi has only succeeded in the one. Ronaldo was also the last player to pick up a Ballon D'Or award from the Premier League which many agree is a tougher league than La Liga when you look at the bottom end of the table. I am not here to argue that one is better than the other but to say Ronaldo is 'quite a way behind Messi' is absurd in my view. I completely disagree - the argument that international achievements have a huge bearing on how great the players is has no consistency. For example; does this mean that Olivier Giroud is now a better player than Messi because he has a tournament to his name? You’ll probably say that it’s international tournaments combined with other things in response - to which I would agree to an extent. However, I believe winning a tournament with your country is a much more multi-faceted thing to happen in comparison to actual performances on the pitch, which are easier to isolate and recognise when evaluating someone’s ability as being the best player I don’t doubt the individual talent the Argentinian side had - however, that’s not my argument & I think it shows that we just disagree on what makes a team great. Individual talent isn’t enough if the manager does not have them working together well in a system. That Argentinian side did not have a coherent system in the slightest (mostly relying on Messi or another individual to come up with a moment of magic) & compared to Portugal who were very well drilled and tactically sound and hard to beat. I’d bet that Ronaldo’s Portugal would beat Messi’s Argentina if those two sides played one another - purely based on Portugal’s overall play & not the quality of their individual’s talent. La Liga has been the top league in the world over the past 10 years. The argument that the Premier League has somehow been a better league despite being WAY out-performed by La Liga teams in Europe is borderline farcical. I think it’s clear when you look at overall contribution on the pitch that Messi scores as many (if not more) goals as Ronaldo & gets more assists, and is a better dribbler. I just think he’s quite a way ahead of Ronaldo in overall play - but I understand why others think differently. I just value other things higher |
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 9, 2020 17:55:44 GMT
Achievements with country absolutely have bearing on how great a player was, and he played an important role to get Portugal to that final. I am sure you remember that our game with them was going absolutely nowhere until he rose above the pack to nod that header in. He also scored 2 very important goals against Hungary where his side looked to have given up twice to keep them in the tournament at the group stages. I also think you are being very harsh on the rest of the Argentinian side at the 2014 world cup tournament. They had a team packed with in-form world beaters, such as Angel Di Maria, Javier Mascherano, Sergio Agüero, Ezequiel Lavezzi, Gonzalo Higuaín and Pablo Zabaleta. In fact, I would strongly argue they had more quality in that overall side than that Portuguese side which won the Euros in 2016. Even when Ronaldo went off in that game, you could see him dictating play and taking a very active role from the sidelines. Another point in Ronaldo's favour is that he has succeeded in 3 of the world's top leagues whereas Messi has only succeeded in the one. Ronaldo was also the last player to pick up a Ballon D'Or award from the Premier League which many agree is a tougher league than La Liga when you look at the bottom end of the table. I am not here to argue that one is better than the other but to say Ronaldo is 'quite a way behind Messi' is absurd in my view. I completely disagree - the argument that international achievements have a huge bearing on how great the players is has no consistency. For example; does this mean that Olivier Giroud is now a better player than Messi because he has a tournament to his name? You’ll probably say that it’s international tournaments combined with other things in response - to which I would agree to an extent. However, I believe winning a tournament with your country is a much more multi-faceted thing to happen in comparison to actual performances on the pitch, which are easier to isolate and recognise when evaluating someone’s ability as being the best player I don’t doubt the individual talent the Argentinian side had - however, that’s not my argument & I think it shows that we just disagree on what makes a team great. Individual talent isn’t enough if the manager does not have them working together well in a system. That Argentinian side did not have a coherent system in the slightest (mostly relying on Messi or another individual to come up with a moment of magic) & compared to Portugal who were very well drilled and tactically sound and hard to beat. I’d bet that Ronaldo’s Portugal would beat Messi’s Argentina if those two sides played one another - purely based on Portugal’s overall play & not the quality of their individual’s talent. La Liga has been the top league in the world over the past 10 years. The argument that the Premier League has somehow been a better league despite being WAY out-performed by La Liga teams in Europe is borderline farcical. I think it’s clear when you look at overall contribution on the pitch that Messi scores as many (if not more) goals as Ronaldo & gets more assists, and is a better dribbler. I just think he’s quite a way ahead of Ronaldo in overall play - but I understand why others think differently. I just value other things higher You are right, no where did I state that these tournaments are the be all and end off of defining which player is better, but that it should definitely be considered when defining how great a player is. For example, a similar player to Giroud who had may not be considered as great of a player having not won a world cup. They will likely be forgotten by most in 20 years time where Giroud won't be. Being part of a side that wins a major international tournament should give you a nudge towards being a greater player than someone who has not, like Messi. I think individuals and a good system both contribute towards making a team great. Argentina have the individuals where Portugal have the system, and as you mentioned yourself, another individual could well come up with a moment of magic for the Argentinians when Messi is not available so what makes you so sure that Portugal would defeat Argentina if they two came up against each other in a competitive match without their stars available? You also have to bear in mind that Argentina play in Copa America, in a continent dominated by teams who have relied on individuals in recent years rather than a coherent system, which has often been their downfall in world cup tournaments since 2002 where Brazil had so many good individuals in that side it did not matter what system they played with. I think you have misread my point about La Liga. I know that La Liga has topped the coefficient for some time now but that is solely because of how well their top 3 teams have done in Europe, as well as Sevilla's obsession for winning every Europa League final. My point is that the teams towards the ugly end of La Liga are not as difficult to beat as the teams in the lower end of the Premier League, which is why you regularly see teams getting thumped by Barcelona, Real and Atletico weak in weak out unless they decide to rest players for more important European matches. Look at Spain's national team as an example. Only one player in that squad who plays in La Liga plays for a club outside the top half, and this is the 3rd choice keeper who plays for Athletic Bilbao who finished 11th. Leeds United have just signed a striker who's in that squad and they've just come up. You have lower clubs in England with players who feature in the squads for the England, Germany, France, Argentina and Brazil national teams. La Liga is certainly a strong league at the top, I have no doubt about that, but the Premier League is certainly stronger further down the table and Cristiano Ronaldo proved himself there. That also goes in his favour. On the assists point, another thing I'll mention is that Barcelona have had a wealth of talent up front compared to Real Madrid with Ronaldo. Real Madrid tended to focus pretty much every attack with the intention of getting Ronaldo on the end and scoring them, and he often did. Lionel Messi has had Luis Suarez, Neymar, Eto'o, Villa and Ronaldinho for company. I'd fancy myself getting a few assists with them along side me. |
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100 caps
Sept 9, 2020 18:04:48 GMT
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Post by CrackityJones on Sept 9, 2020 18:04:48 GMT
Either way I doubt Ronaldo or Messi will get 100 caps for Cymru at this stage of their career, sorry to break it to you. Try as they might it’s just not feasible lads.
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 9, 2020 18:45:36 GMT
Either way I doubt Ronaldo or Messi will get 100 caps for Cymru at this stage of their career, sorry to break it to you. Try as they might it’s just not feasible lads. More chance than Gunter..... Too harsh? |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 9, 2020 19:42:43 GMT
I completely disagree - the argument that international achievements have a huge bearing on how great the players is has no consistency. For example; does this mean that Olivier Giroud is now a better player than Messi because he has a tournament to his name? You’ll probably say that it’s international tournaments combined with other things in response - to which I would agree to an extent. However, I believe winning a tournament with your country is a much more multi-faceted thing to happen in comparison to actual performances on the pitch, which are easier to isolate and recognise when evaluating someone’s ability as being the best player I don’t doubt the individual talent the Argentinian side had - however, that’s not my argument & I think it shows that we just disagree on what makes a team great. Individual talent isn’t enough if the manager does not have them working together well in a system. That Argentinian side did not have a coherent system in the slightest (mostly relying on Messi or another individual to come up with a moment of magic) & compared to Portugal who were very well drilled and tactically sound and hard to beat. I’d bet that Ronaldo’s Portugal would beat Messi’s Argentina if those two sides played one another - purely based on Portugal’s overall play & not the quality of their individual’s talent. La Liga has been the top league in the world over the past 10 years. The argument that the Premier League has somehow been a better league despite being WAY out-performed by La Liga teams in Europe is borderline farcical. I think it’s clear when you look at overall contribution on the pitch that Messi scores as many (if not more) goals as Ronaldo & gets more assists, and is a better dribbler. I just think he’s quite a way ahead of Ronaldo in overall play - but I understand why others think differently. I just value other things higher You are right, no where did I state that these tournaments are the be all and end off of defining which player is better, but that it should definitely be considered when defining how great a player is. For example, a similar player to Giroud who had may not be considered as great of a player having not won a world cup. They will likely be forgotten by most in 20 years time where Giroud won't be. Being part of a side that wins a major international tournament should give you a nudge towards being a greater player than someone who has not, like Messi. I think individuals and a good system both contribute towards making a team great. Argentina have the individuals where Portugal have the system, and as you mentioned yourself, another individual could well come up with a moment of magic for the Argentinians when Messi is not available so what makes you so sure that Portugal would defeat Argentina if they two came up against each other in a competitive match without their stars available? You also have to bear in mind that Argentina play in Copa America, in a continent dominated by teams who have relied on individuals in recent years rather than a coherent system, which has often been their downfall in world cup tournaments since 2002 where Brazil had so many good individuals in that side it did not matter what system they played with. I think you have misread my point about La Liga. I know that La Liga has topped the coefficient for some time now but that is solely because of how well their top 3 teams have done in Europe, as well as Sevilla's obsession for winning every Europa League final. My point is that the teams towards the ugly end of La Liga are not as difficult to beat as the teams in the lower end of the Premier League, which is why you regularly see teams getting thumped by Barcelona, Real and Atletico weak in weak out unless they decide to rest players for more important European matches. Look at Spain's national team as an example. Only one player in that squad who plays in La Liga plays for a club outside the top half, and this is the 3rd choice keeper who plays for Athletic Bilbao who finished 11th. Leeds United have just signed a striker who's in that squad and they've just come up. You have lower clubs in England with players who feature in the squads for the England, Germany, France, Argentina and Brazil national teams. La Liga is certainly a strong league at the top, I have no doubt about that, but the Premier League is certainly stronger further down the table and Cristiano Ronaldo proved himself there. That also goes in his favour. On the assists point, another thing I'll mention is that Barcelona have had a wealth of talent up front compared to Real Madrid with Ronaldo. Real Madrid tended to focus pretty much every attack with the intention of getting Ronaldo on the end and scoring them, and he often did. Lionel Messi has had Luis Suarez, Neymar, Eto'o, Villa and Ronaldinho for company. I'd fancy myself getting a few assists with them along side me. I agree you should consider it along with everything else, I just don't give too much weight to it. Especially as I felt Ronaldo's contribution to winning that tournament was less than Messi's contribution to getting Argentina to a World Cup final. The other thing that negates the international tournament argument for me is that Messi was within a penalty shootout of winning two Copa Americas. Had his team mates scored their penalties would he be a better player than Ronaldo then? Surely the fact that Messi has been to 3 international finals with his country is a better sign of consistency than Ronaldo reaching 1 and happening to win it whilst he was on the sidelines? What I meant with the Argentina vs Portugal point (which I realise I hadn't made clear in my original post - I wrote that in a bit of a rush!) is that if they played 10 times I think Portugal would win the majority - perhaps 6 or 7 times out of 10 - & Argentina might win the odd game through a moment of brilliance, but having a superior system tips the odds in your favour. I do disagree as well about the Brazil 2002 point as well. They built their system on their forward players i.e having those forwards at their disposal was obviously a blessing - however they added into their lineup 6 or 7 incredibly hard working players on the defensive side to complement their attacking strength and essentially allowing them to have freedom going forwards. They may have had the 3 best attackers in the world in their team, that's true, however I don't think they'd have won it with any team - they still needed that system around them that complimented them. I don't agree about this point of the bottom half of La Liga being worse than the bottom half of the Premier League either sorry. I don't think there is any way of truly comparing the two in all honesty - we've also seen teams get spanked by Man City, Liverpool, even Leicester put 9 past Southampton this season. Are teams like Norwich - or Cardiff when they were up - really better than the likes of Oviedo? I don't honestly think the difference is negligible to the point where it makes a solid point. I actually think the Spanish teams over the last 10 years would be able to dominate the ball against lower Prem teams. I also think the only real way you can compare is by comparing the league coefficients, because like you say the top teams are winning the Champions League, the clubs below them are winning the Europa League - how exactly are these teams staying so good & competitive? If they are playing dross every week they won't be competing in Europe in my opinion - just look at PSG. It's no use comparing the players either because historically England have been dominated by the top clubs in the league. But I would say them picking players lower down the table is more a comment on their relative strength rather than proof that the league is better. Rodrigo as an isolated example wouldn't be going to Leeds if Bielsa wasn't there so to me that doesn't really illustrate what you're saying. I understand what you're saying about Ronaldo doing well in the Premier League too - but just look at Messi's record against the top Premier League sides! It's remarkable - I don't believe for a second that he couldn't tear up the Premier League in a team like Liverpool or Man City. And Ronaldo has played with Bale, Benzema, Ozil, Isco so both have had the unbelievable players around them - Barca & Real have been winning Champions League so I don't buy that Messi only has more assists because he plays with better players. Your point about Ronaldo being on the end of moves more is something I completely agree with - and it's kind of my point actually. While I feel Ronaldo is unbelievable at getting on the end of moves, I feel Messi can do both & that's why I rate him so much more. That's why when he got 90 goals in 1 season he was literally unplayable because he was doing everything. Again, my preference would always lean more towards Messi because I feel he can do more on the pitch when all is said and done, but I do understand why people like Ronaldo. I'll just always argue the case for who I see as the better player |
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 11, 2020 8:12:41 GMT
You are right, no where did I state that these tournaments are the be all and end off of defining which player is better, but that it should definitely be considered when defining how great a player is. For example, a similar player to Giroud who had may not be considered as great of a player having not won a world cup. They will likely be forgotten by most in 20 years time where Giroud won't be. Being part of a side that wins a major international tournament should give you a nudge towards being a greater player than someone who has not, like Messi. I think individuals and a good system both contribute towards making a team great. Argentina have the individuals where Portugal have the system, and as you mentioned yourself, another individual could well come up with a moment of magic for the Argentinians when Messi is not available so what makes you so sure that Portugal would defeat Argentina if they two came up against each other in a competitive match without their stars available? You also have to bear in mind that Argentina play in Copa America, in a continent dominated by teams who have relied on individuals in recent years rather than a coherent system, which has often been their downfall in world cup tournaments since 2002 where Brazil had so many good individuals in that side it did not matter what system they played with. I think you have misread my point about La Liga. I know that La Liga has topped the coefficient for some time now but that is solely because of how well their top 3 teams have done in Europe, as well as Sevilla's obsession for winning every Europa League final. My point is that the teams towards the ugly end of La Liga are not as difficult to beat as the teams in the lower end of the Premier League, which is why you regularly see teams getting thumped by Barcelona, Real and Atletico weak in weak out unless they decide to rest players for more important European matches. Look at Spain's national team as an example. Only one player in that squad who plays in La Liga plays for a club outside the top half, and this is the 3rd choice keeper who plays for Athletic Bilbao who finished 11th. Leeds United have just signed a striker who's in that squad and they've just come up. You have lower clubs in England with players who feature in the squads for the England, Germany, France, Argentina and Brazil national teams. La Liga is certainly a strong league at the top, I have no doubt about that, but the Premier League is certainly stronger further down the table and Cristiano Ronaldo proved himself there. That also goes in his favour. On the assists point, another thing I'll mention is that Barcelona have had a wealth of talent up front compared to Real Madrid with Ronaldo. Real Madrid tended to focus pretty much every attack with the intention of getting Ronaldo on the end and scoring them, and he often did. Lionel Messi has had Luis Suarez, Neymar, Eto'o, Villa and Ronaldinho for company. I'd fancy myself getting a few assists with them along side me. I agree you should consider it along with everything else, I just don't give too much weight to it. Especially as I felt Ronaldo's contribution to winning that tournament was less than Messi's contribution to getting Argentina to a World Cup final. The other thing that negates the international tournament argument for me is that Messi was within a penalty shootout of winning two Copa Americas. Had his team mates scored their penalties would he be a better player than Ronaldo then? Surely the fact that Messi has been to 3 international finals with his country is a better sign of consistency than Ronaldo reaching 1 and happening to win it whilst he was on the sidelines? What I meant with the Argentina vs Portugal point (which I realise I hadn't made clear in my original post - I wrote that in a bit of a rush!) is that if they played 10 times I think Portugal would win the majority - perhaps 6 or 7 times out of 10 - & Argentina might win the odd game through a moment of brilliance, but having a superior system tips the odds in your favour. I do disagree as well about the Brazil 2002 point as well. They built their system on their forward players i.e having those forwards at their disposal was obviously a blessing - however they added into their lineup 6 or 7 incredibly hard working players on the defensive side to complement their attacking strength and essentially allowing them to have freedom going forwards. They may have had the 3 best attackers in the world in their team, that's true, however I don't think they'd have won it with any team - they still needed that system around them that complimented them. I don't agree about this point of the bottom half of La Liga being worse than the bottom half of the Premier League either sorry. I don't think there is any way of truly comparing the two in all honesty - we've also seen teams get spanked by Man City, Liverpool, even Leicester put 9 past Southampton this season. Are teams like Norwich - or Cardiff when they were up - really better than the likes of Oviedo? I don't honestly think the difference is negligible to the point where it makes a solid point. I actually think the Spanish teams over the last 10 years would be able to dominate the ball against lower Prem teams. I also think the only real way you can compare is by comparing the league coefficients, because like you say the top teams are winning the Champions League, the clubs below them are winning the Europa League - how exactly are these teams staying so good & competitive? If they are playing dross every week they won't be competing in Europe in my opinion - just look at PSG. It's no use comparing the players either because historically England have been dominated by the top clubs in the league. But I would say them picking players lower down the table is more a comment on their relative strength rather than proof that the league is better. Rodrigo as an isolated example wouldn't be going to Leeds if Bielsa wasn't there so to me that doesn't really illustrate what you're saying. I understand what you're saying about Ronaldo doing well in the Premier League too - but just look at Messi's record against the top Premier League sides! It's remarkable - I don't believe for a second that he couldn't tear up the Premier League in a team like Liverpool or Man City. And Ronaldo has played with Bale, Benzema, Ozil, Isco so both have had the unbelievable players around them - Barca & Real have been winning Champions League so I don't buy that Messi only has more assists because he plays with better players. Your point about Ronaldo being on the end of moves more is something I completely agree with - and it's kind of my point actually. While I feel Ronaldo is unbelievable at getting on the end of moves, I feel Messi can do both & that's why I rate him so much more. That's why when he got 90 goals in 1 season he was literally unplayable because he was doing everything. Again, my preference would always lean more towards Messi because I feel he can do more on the pitch when all is said and done, but I do understand why people like Ronaldo. I'll just always argue the case for who I see as the better player Ronaldo has reached 3 finals, actually. Euro 2004, Euro 2016 and the most recent Nations League finals which Portugal won. You will probably go ahead and discount that because you want to tip the balance in Messi's favour but the fact is in that tournament they were playing the best teams in the world (fair comment surely given Europe's recent dominance on the international scene) and Ronaldo scored a hat-trick in the semi-final to land them in that final. No I knew what you meant and I still disagree. There is little way of knowing who would come out on top out of the 2 teams. Perhaps Portugal would, but the fact that there's not a lot in it surely tips the balance again in Ronaldo's favour having been part of a side that's won 2 major tournaments. That is a very unfair way to compare the bottom halves of the two leagues. You only have to watch a few La Liga games and a few Premier League games at the lower end of the table to see the difference in quality. You mention that the Spanish Leagues' coefficients are boosted by the top teams performing well in Europe which is true, but what you fail to mention is that it's always the same 3 teams performing well in the Champions League. At least with the Premier League there is a little more variety there and the some of the big boys are often challenged for the top 4 spots. My comment wasn't that the league is better as a whole, it was that the league is better than La Liga further down the table, which it is. The top clubs in the Premier League are probably even better than the top clubs in La Liga now so where do we stand here? Also when Ronaldo won the Ballon D'Or at Manchester United, England were top of the UEFA coefficient. My point about the players Messi has played with is that he's always had a world class goalscorer there with him. You've mentioned 2 players there who are goalscorers, Bale and Benzema, the former of whom is very capable of getting a goal out of nothing but was frozen out by Zidane and the latter being a very inconsistent finisher over the time he has been at Real. The players I mentioned are in a different league when it comes to goalscoring. That's all well and good, I just don't think there's a lot between them myself. If anything I probably lean towards Messi but they're not worlds apart in terms of greatness and they should be touted as the 2 best footballers of all time. |
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100 caps
Sept 11, 2020 9:51:10 GMT
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 11, 2020 9:51:10 GMT
I agree you should consider it along with everything else, I just don't give too much weight to it. Especially as I felt Ronaldo's contribution to winning that tournament was less than Messi's contribution to getting Argentina to a World Cup final. The other thing that negates the international tournament argument for me is that Messi was within a penalty shootout of winning two Copa Americas. Had his team mates scored their penalties would he be a better player than Ronaldo then? Surely the fact that Messi has been to 3 international finals with his country is a better sign of consistency than Ronaldo reaching 1 and happening to win it whilst he was on the sidelines? What I meant with the Argentina vs Portugal point (which I realise I hadn't made clear in my original post - I wrote that in a bit of a rush!) is that if they played 10 times I think Portugal would win the majority - perhaps 6 or 7 times out of 10 - & Argentina might win the odd game through a moment of brilliance, but having a superior system tips the odds in your favour. I do disagree as well about the Brazil 2002 point as well. They built their system on their forward players i.e having those forwards at their disposal was obviously a blessing - however they added into their lineup 6 or 7 incredibly hard working players on the defensive side to complement their attacking strength and essentially allowing them to have freedom going forwards. They may have had the 3 best attackers in the world in their team, that's true, however I don't think they'd have won it with any team - they still needed that system around them that complimented them. I don't agree about this point of the bottom half of La Liga being worse than the bottom half of the Premier League either sorry. I don't think there is any way of truly comparing the two in all honesty - we've also seen teams get spanked by Man City, Liverpool, even Leicester put 9 past Southampton this season. Are teams like Norwich - or Cardiff when they were up - really better than the likes of Oviedo? I don't honestly think the difference is negligible to the point where it makes a solid point. I actually think the Spanish teams over the last 10 years would be able to dominate the ball against lower Prem teams. I also think the only real way you can compare is by comparing the league coefficients, because like you say the top teams are winning the Champions League, the clubs below them are winning the Europa League - how exactly are these teams staying so good & competitive? If they are playing dross every week they won't be competing in Europe in my opinion - just look at PSG. It's no use comparing the players either because historically England have been dominated by the top clubs in the league. But I would say them picking players lower down the table is more a comment on their relative strength rather than proof that the league is better. Rodrigo as an isolated example wouldn't be going to Leeds if Bielsa wasn't there so to me that doesn't really illustrate what you're saying. I understand what you're saying about Ronaldo doing well in the Premier League too - but just look at Messi's record against the top Premier League sides! It's remarkable - I don't believe for a second that he couldn't tear up the Premier League in a team like Liverpool or Man City. And Ronaldo has played with Bale, Benzema, Ozil, Isco so both have had the unbelievable players around them - Barca & Real have been winning Champions League so I don't buy that Messi only has more assists because he plays with better players. Your point about Ronaldo being on the end of moves more is something I completely agree with - and it's kind of my point actually. While I feel Ronaldo is unbelievable at getting on the end of moves, I feel Messi can do both & that's why I rate him so much more. That's why when he got 90 goals in 1 season he was literally unplayable because he was doing everything. Again, my preference would always lean more towards Messi because I feel he can do more on the pitch when all is said and done, but I do understand why people like Ronaldo. I'll just always argue the case for who I see as the better player Ronaldo has reached 3 finals, actually. Euro 2004, Euro 2016 and the most recent Nations League finals which Portugal won. You will probably go ahead and discount that because you want to tip the balance in Messi's favour but the fact is in that tournament they were playing the best teams in the world (fair comment surely given Europe's recent dominance on the international scene) and Ronaldo scored a hat-trick in the semi-final to land them in that final. No I knew what you meant and I still disagree. There is little way of knowing who would come out on top out of the 2 teams. Perhaps Portugal would, but the fact that there's not a lot in it surely tips the balance again in Ronaldo's favour having been part of a side that's won 2 major tournaments. That is a very unfair way to compare the bottom halves of the two leagues. You only have to watch a few La Liga games and a few Premier League games at the lower end of the table to see the difference in quality. You mention that the Spanish Leagues' coefficients are boosted by the top teams performing well in Europe which is true, but what you fail to mention is that it's always the same 3 teams performing well in the Champions League. At least with the Premier League there is a little more variety there and the some of the big boys are often challenged for the top 4 spots. My comment wasn't that the league is better as a whole, it was that the league is better than La Liga further down the table, which it is. The top clubs in the Premier League are probably even better than the top clubs in La Liga now so where do we stand here? Also when Ronaldo won the Ballon D'Or at Manchester United, England were top of the UEFA coefficient. My point about the players Messi has played with is that he's always had a world class goalscorer there with him. You've mentioned 2 players there who are goalscorers, Bale and Benzema, the former of whom is very capable of getting a goal out of nothing but was frozen out by Zidane and the latter being a very inconsistent finisher over the time he has been at Real. The players I mentioned are in a different league when it comes to goalscoring. That's all well and good, I just don't think there's a lot between them myself. If anything I probably lean towards Messi but they're not worlds apart in terms of greatness and they should be touted as the 2 best footballers of all time. Without hijacking the thread too much further My point about them reaching finals wasn't to highlight that it's Messi's advantage. Rather to highlight that there is parity between their impact on their teams at international level. Just because one's side have gotten over the one once in the final, and the other's hasn't doesn't impact my opinion of them as players (hence my point about not leaning to much on international tournament success when deciding who is the best) I've watched the bottom half of the Spanish league & I think the quality is higher there than at the bottom of the Premier League. As I say there's no way of demonstrating that, just my opinion. I think the idea of the strength of the bottom half of the Premier League being the strongest in Europe has been a bit of a myth of a narrative that pops up to support the idea of the Premier League being the best league. It falls down for me when you realise the bottom teams regularly get spanked by our top teams too & that you regularly have the same teams in the top 6. Also it's not just that Atletico, Real & Barca have dominated the Champions League, it's that you get Sevilla, Valencia, Bilbao going far in the Europa League too. Celta Vigo reached the Europa League semis too. There's more variety in the clubs there than you're suggesting when you look at all European competitions. Now, certainly the Premier League clubs seem to be outperforming the Spanish ones but I'm not talking about this year, I'm talking about the last 10 years where Spain have dominated. Re: the goalscorer argument, I just don't really understand why you'd argue this point. It's self evident that he's a better creator when you watch them both play. He's a superior passer & dribbler, and that can't be explained away by saying Ronaldo has had inferior players around them when they are both reaching Champions League finals. I guess to summarise I'd say that I don't disagree in terms of achievements on the pitch they are pretty close. Just that my own evaluation of them as players, I have Messi ahead by a bit of a distance. Ronaldo is the 2nd best of all time but I don't have him that close to Messi as a player overall |
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100 caps
Sept 11, 2020 10:27:24 GMT
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Post by erasedcitizen on Sept 11, 2020 10:27:24 GMT
I think we will have to agree to disagree.
Certainly beyond hijacking the thread at this point but I do enjoy a good Messi/Ronaldo debate. Cheers.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Sept 11, 2020 10:43:40 GMT
I think we will have to agree to disagree. Certainly beyond hijacking the thread at this point but I do enjoy a good Messi/Ronaldo debate. Cheers. Same - Pele vs Maradona next  |
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100 caps
Sept 11, 2020 18:26:44 GMT
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Post by conwy10 on Sept 11, 2020 18:26:44 GMT
Ronaldo can force a transfer, Messi can’t...
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Post by robin1864 on Sept 11, 2020 18:56:50 GMT
Neco 100% Very competitive everywhere else though. He might be 22 with only 12 so far but I think Dan James will always be a starter so I’ll go for him Can't see James getting 100. His game is largely built off being fast as fuck, the minute he's lost a yard of pace there will be someone else like Rabbi to ready step in and take over - just look at Bale now for example. |
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100 caps
Mar 28, 2021 18:02:54 GMT
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Post by welshiron on Mar 28, 2021 18:02:54 GMT
With Gunter reaching the milestone how many more will follow
Hennessey and Bale look nailed on
Think Ben Davies will
Confident Ampadu will also Neco Williams
Could become a regular thing
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Post by fiveattheback on Mar 28, 2021 18:14:25 GMT
Depends on how many tournaments we get to for Davies, needs 42 more caps
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100 caps
Mar 28, 2021 18:29:33 GMT
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Post by allezlesrouges on Mar 28, 2021 18:29:33 GMT
Depends on how many tournaments we get to for Davies, needs 42 more caps He'll be close to 70 caps by the end of the year, and will be 28. Given he is our best defender and plays LB & CB I can't see him not getting 30 caps from 28 until retirement. I see no reason why he wouldn't get called up for the next 7 or so years. If we play 8-10 games a year & Davies plays on average 6 games per year then he will be on track to reach 100 after 5 years - he'd be 33. I think he'll do it |
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100 caps
Mar 28, 2021 18:31:24 GMT
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Post by underwood on Mar 28, 2021 18:31:24 GMT
Barring injury, Joe Rodon will. Dan James has got a chance too.
I know Rambo & Allen won’t & Ben Davies will probably fall just short as injuries & Father Time catch up with him.
As pointed out, qualification for tournaments makes a big difference, if Chris Gunter was Germany’s best right-back he would now have 140 caps.
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100 caps
Mar 28, 2021 18:33:27 GMT
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Post by quetzal on Mar 28, 2021 18:33:27 GMT
Two teams figured out the seedlings a few years ago. Wales and I believe Romania. By not playing you could improve the position. I wonder how many caps were lost in those years? 10-12?
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100 caps
Mar 28, 2021 19:08:24 GMT
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Post by allezlesrouges on Mar 28, 2021 19:08:24 GMT
Rodon does have a good chance
I'll be surprised if many young attackers get there to be honest. We have so many competing for game time & will go through different bouts of form and playing time for their clubs I think they will be in constant rotation. Furthermore, being a forward is often a young man's game. Someone like James I have doubts about how useful he will be to us when he loses his pace, he's quite dependent on that aspect of his game and doesn't have the quality of a Bale to keep himself getting in the team when he does lose his pace
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Post by walesgolfmadrid on Mar 28, 2021 19:13:15 GMT
Two teams figured out the seedlings a few years ago. Wales and I believe Romania. By not playing you could improve the position. I wonder how many caps were lost in those years? 10-12? I think it was seven less than England played in that period from 2014 to the beginning of 2018 WCQ. How many of them would have been played by the regular starts though I'm not sure. |
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Post by jbt95 on Mar 28, 2021 19:27:10 GMT
Two teams figured out the seedlings a few years ago. Wales and I believe Romania. By not playing you could improve the position. I wonder how many caps were lost in those years? 10-12? I think it was seven less than England played in that period from 2014 to the beginning of 2018 WCQ. How many of them would have been played by the regular starts though I'm not sure. England always play loads of friendlies at any chance they get. They played 3 before the last Euros... seemed too many. |
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100 caps
Mar 28, 2021 19:45:50 GMT
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Post by welshrover on Mar 28, 2021 19:45:50 GMT
Barring injury, Joe Rodon will. Dan James has got a chance too. I know Rambo & Allen won’t & Ben Davies will probably fall just short as injuries & Father Time catch up with him. As pointed out, qualification for tournaments makes a big difference, if Chris Gunter was Germany’s best right-back he would now have 140 caps. If he'd played for Germany he would have been called Christoph Gunther! |
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Post by fiveattheback on Mar 28, 2021 20:11:18 GMT
I wouldn't be so sure on Rodon, he's 23 and has 11. Gunter had over 30 caps by that age
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Post by dai on Mar 28, 2021 20:16:22 GMT
Judging by our lack of CM midfield options, and no real major prospects in that area, I'd give Allen a very slim outside chance of getting there. He'd have to play for another 4-5 years though, which again is unlikely, but not impossible.
Ash was on 86 which is really surprising! I didn't think he was on that many. Could he have gotten there if Giggs hadn't frozen him out?
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