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Post by conwy10 on Nov 16, 2022 10:09:59 GMT
Not sure if I'm the only one who obsessed over 'that squad'. I have been thinking about it and I'd have it almost 50/50.
Hennessey now>Hennessey 2016 (Definitely got more faith in him now)
Roberts>Gunter
Williams>Mepham
Chester>Rodon
Davies now>Davies 2016
Neco>Taylor
Allen 2016>Allen now
Ledley>Ampadu
Ramsey now>Ramsey 2016 (a bit more experience)
Bale 2016>Bale now
James>HRK
Needless to say Johnson, Moore and Wilson are upgrades on Church, Vokes and King. The spine of the team is 2016 though, I felt we just clicked then but didn't have the imagination in the attack.
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Post by iot on Nov 16, 2022 10:30:34 GMT
Can't have the current versions of Davies and Ramsey down as better players than the 2016 version when both were in the Euro 16 team of the tournament. Ramsey was genuinely world class at that tournament and at different points for Arsenal. He's not quite at that level now. Davies could potentially improve his Euro 16 heroics.
Unfortunately, 2016 Joe Allen and Gareth Bale were much better players then than 6 years on. But we have loads of options and different ways of playing now, which we didn't have back then, and much more threatening wing backs.
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Post by dai on Nov 16, 2022 10:46:47 GMT
My main take on this has always been that the 2016 TEAM (starting 11 etc) has never been surpassed yet, but I think we have a better SQUAD at the moment.
Like iot said, back in 2016 we also had better versions of Bale, Allen, Ramsey etc. Davies I think is still consistent.
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Post by toshfan on Nov 16, 2022 10:49:52 GMT
What dai said.
Better squad now. Better first 11 then.
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Post by ddirpytnop on Nov 16, 2022 11:06:39 GMT
Not at all convinced that Chester was better than Rodon currently is. Nor that Ledley was better than Ampadu. It would be hard to argue that Allen, Ramsey or Bale are as good now as they were then but overall, our 2022 squad is definitely better.
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Post by dai on Nov 16, 2022 11:10:18 GMT
Not at all convinced that Chester was better than Rodon currently is. Nor that Ledley was better than Ampadu. It would be hard to argue that Allen, Ramsey or Bale are as good now as they were then but overall, our 2022 squad is definitely better. Well, our defensive record with Chester speaks for itself if we're comparing individual defenders. I can't recall any Chester mistakes, but Rodon has made quite a few so far in his Welsh career. Tbh, I would personally go as far as saying that the entire back 5 in 2016 were superior to our current back 5, purely because we conceded less goals and were much better organised. |
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Post by iot on Nov 16, 2022 11:32:34 GMT
Not at all convinced that Chester was better than Rodon currently is. Nor that Ledley was better than Ampadu. It would be hard to argue that Allen, Ramsey or Bale are as good now as they were then but overall, our 2022 squad is definitely better. I would say Ampadu and Rodon are better players, but Chester and Ledley performed their specific roles in the Welsh team at the time better than the other two currently do. Ledley, in particular, was fairly limited ability-wise, but was a crucial cog in the machine. I'm still not convinced that Ampadu has mastered his specific role in the team, particularly when playing in midfield |
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Post by ddirpytnop on Nov 16, 2022 12:38:04 GMT
Not at all convinced that Chester was better than Rodon currently is. Nor that Ledley was better than Ampadu. It would be hard to argue that Allen, Ramsey or Bale are as good now as they were then but overall, our 2022 squad is definitely better. Well, our defensive record with Chester speaks for itself if we're comparing individual defenders. I can't recall any Chester mistakes, but Rodon has made quite a few so far in his Welsh career. Tbh, I would personally go as far as saying that the entire back 5 in 2016 were superior to our current back 5, purely because we conceded less goals and were much better organised. I wasn't being critical of Chester. He did really well for us and was discarded too soon in my opinion. As for the comparative strengths of the collective backlines, you are probably right that We conceded fewer goals back then but that is in part because we were much more conservative as a team. Neco and Roberts are wingbacks who get forward at every oppotunity. In 2016, we essentially played with five specialist defenders. |
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 16, 2022 19:17:50 GMT
Can't have the current versions of Davies and Ramsey down as better players than the 2016 version when both were in the Euro 16 team of the tournament. Ramsey was genuinely world class at that tournament and at different points for Arsenal. He's not quite at that level now. Davies could potentially improve his Euro 16 heroics. Unfortunately, 2016 Joe Allen and Gareth Bale were much better players then than 6 years on. But we have loads of options and different ways of playing now, which we didn't have back then, and much more threatening wing backs. He might still be in this years team of the tournament 😊 Davies and Ramsey were always better players when the match slows down so getting older won't affect them as badly as say Bale or Allen who were everywhere when they were in their prime. Plus the 6 more years playing for elite clubs. |
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 16, 2022 19:21:45 GMT
Not at all convinced that Chester was better than Rodon currently is. Nor that Ledley was better than Ampadu. It would be hard to argue that Allen, Ramsey or Bale are as good now as they were then but overall, our 2022 squad is definitely better. I always felt Ledley knew his role in the team and did it. He gave Allen a platform to build off too. I think we've never really replaced that security in the middle. I love Rodon, I just can't put him above Chester though. Our defence gets cut to ribbons at times. |
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Post by talyfan on Nov 16, 2022 22:15:30 GMT
I think player for player individually our squad as a whole now is a lot better and there's greater strength in depth. But in terms of being a unit 2016 is ahead. Really do lack a decent holding midfielder who give the backline some protection and security along with centre halves like Ashley Williams and James Chester, who for what I can't really describe it other than being dependable and just gave off that secure aura. Although I would caveat I think that leans towards the change in system and roles of our wingbacks and less so than the personnel.
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Post by cymruchris on Nov 16, 2022 22:16:08 GMT
First 11 miles stronger in 2016. Ramsey, Joe Allen and Bale at their complete peaks.
Squad depth better now if we're saying someone like Dan James is going to be impact sub given he was one of the better players in the euros. Plenty of options for the back 3 although James Collins was still a reasonable back up and he came in for the Portugal game IIRC.
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Post by cadno on Nov 16, 2022 23:54:46 GMT
James Chester was absolutely unreal mun, criminally underrated
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Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 17, 2022 14:39:41 GMT
Are we underestimating Ampadu a little bit here? He's a better athlete than Ledley, also has a better engine, and arguably possesses more talent. And he's still only 22, way more to come from him. I just wish we'd play him in his natural position more.
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Post by jimexotic on Nov 18, 2022 1:20:21 GMT
James Chester was absolutely unreal mun, criminally underrated He really was, he was fantastic in Euro 16, there's still time for Mepham to surpass him though. I still believe that Mepham will become a top class defender the more he plays, which is happening now at club level. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 18, 2022 13:24:50 GMT
It was interesting to hear Coleman say in the documentary that if he'd stayed on he wouldn't have ripped up the squad like Giggs did, because he owed them all his loyalty. Makes you realise that us making the change at that time was absolutely pivotal
And fair play to Coleman for being honest about that. It would have been easy for him to sit there and say "I brought in Ampadu, Woodburn & Brooks, and was planning to evolve the side", but he was surprisingly honest that he wouldn't have gone that way
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 18, 2022 13:25:48 GMT
James Chester was absolutely unreal mun, criminally underrated He really was, he was fantastic in Euro 16, there's still time for Mepham to surpass him though. I still believe that Mepham will become a top class defender the more he plays, which is happening now at club level. Yeah I think Meps has shown himself capable of being a top flight defender, and if Bournemouth stay up that will be ideal. If they go down I can see some teams moving for him |
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 18, 2022 18:54:35 GMT
Are we underestimating Ampadu a little bit here? He's a better athlete than Ledley, also has a better engine, and arguably possesses more talent. And he's still only 22, way more to come from him. I just wish we'd play him in his natural position more. Just personal opinion I think Ledley is ahead of him if we take Ampadu now and Ledley in the Euros. I think he's one of the most underrated, he broke his leg and a few weeks later played a massive part in us getting to the semis. I just felt with Ledley we had some bite, a little controlled aggression. He was disciplined and did a lot of dirty defensive work. Ampadu I think can get pulled from position, has a slightly over exuberant side. A talent no doubt, but I'd feel more comfortable with a Ledley there than an Ampadu, especially in a tournament. |
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Post by cadno on Nov 18, 2022 21:35:48 GMT
It was interesting to hear Coleman say in the documentary that if he'd stayed on he wouldn't have ripped up the squad like Giggs did, because he owed them all his loyalty. Makes you realise that us making the change at that time was absolutely pivotal And fair play to Coleman for being honest about that. It would have been easy for him to sit there and say "I brought in Ampadu, Woodburn & Brooks, and was planning to evolve the side", but he was surprisingly honest that he wouldn't have gone that way It should have been balanced, had he kept Chester, Williams and some others on and given them an important role then I think we’d have stood a better chance to make a real mark in last years euros, we wouldn’t have been embarrassed by Denmark! On the flip side, the young lads are in a better place now going in to this World Cup. |
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Post by melynwy on Nov 18, 2022 21:58:11 GMT
Well, our defensive record with Chester speaks for itself if we're comparing individual defenders. I can't recall any Chester mistakes, but Rodon has made quite a few so far in his Welsh career. Tbh, I would personally go as far as saying that the entire back 5 in 2016 were superior to our current back 5, purely because we conceded less goals and were much better organised. I wasn't being critical of Chester. He did really well for us and was discarded too soon in my opinion. As for the comparative strengths of the collective backlines, you are probably right that We conceded fewer goals back then but that is in part because we were much more conservative as a team. Neco and Roberts are wingbacks who get forward at every oppotunity. In 2016, we essentially played with five specialist defenders. I disagree with this. People were claiming this in 2016 as well but in truth, despite being limited players, Gunter and Taylor were playing extremely offensively, and were very often in wide forward positions. This was a feature of our play I think, and not just occasional ventures up the field. Taylor in particular often found himself in centre forward positions (see his goal v Russia in ‘16, as well as his position v Belgium where he was drawing defenders’ attention when Hal did that turn). As well as Taylor’s goal, Ashley Williams also scored in that tournament and Gunter got an assist. We were quite fluid and attacking. |
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Post by dai on Nov 18, 2022 22:21:49 GMT
That doesn’t make much sense to me - you can’t use a different team’s defensive record to compare individual defenders! You can only use it to compare the two teams, not individuals. It’s like judging this year’s fresh garlic by comparing it to a bolognese sauce you made last year - nonsensical! Zzzzzzz, pedantic...........making a point of how influential Chester was in our defence, he was arguably more reliable than Williams. |
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Post by melynwy on Nov 18, 2022 22:32:37 GMT
That doesn’t make much sense to me - you can’t use a different team’s defensive record to compare individual defenders! You can only use it to compare the two teams, not individuals. It’s like judging this year’s fresh garlic by comparing it to a bolognese sauce you made last year - nonsensical! Zzzzzzz, pedantic...........making a point of how influential Chester was in our defence, he was arguably more reliable than Williams. Yup. I deleted the post before you replied because I was coming across as a d*ick! Alas, you’ve now quoted it, it’s only what I deserve! |
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Post by cadno on Nov 18, 2022 23:03:15 GMT
I wasn't being critical of Chester. He did really well for us and was discarded too soon in my opinion. As for the comparative strengths of the collective backlines, you are probably right that We conceded fewer goals back then but that is in part because we were much more conservative as a team. Neco and Roberts are wingbacks who get forward at every oppotunity. In 2016, we essentially played with five specialist defenders. I disagree with this. People were claiming this in 2016 as well but in truth, despite being limited players, Gunter and Taylor were playing extremely offensively, and were very often in wide forward positions. This was a feature of our play I think, and not just occasional ventures up the field. Taylor in particular often found himself in centre forward positions (see his goal v Russia in ‘16, as well as his position v Belgium where he was drawing defenders’ attention when Hal did that turn). As well as Taylor’s goal, Ashley Williams also scored in that tournament and Gunter got an assist. We were quite fluid and attacking. Yes! They were bombing up and down the pitch. Gunter and Taylor both underrated |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 19, 2022 11:34:31 GMT
It was interesting to hear Coleman say in the documentary that if he'd stayed on he wouldn't have ripped up the squad like Giggs did, because he owed them all his loyalty. Makes you realise that us making the change at that time was absolutely pivotal And fair play to Coleman for being honest about that. It would have been easy for him to sit there and say "I brought in Ampadu, Woodburn & Brooks, and was planning to evolve the side", but he was surprisingly honest that he wouldn't have gone that way It should have been balanced, had he kept Chester, Williams and some others on and given them an important role then I think we’d have stood a better chance to make a real mark in last years euros, we wouldn’t have been embarrassed by Denmark! On the flip side, the young lads are in a better place now going in to this World Cup. Agree with the sentiment, but I think Chester was never the same after his injury, and Ashley did decline quite quickly. I think one of the best decisions Giggs made was moving on and repeatedly capping new CBs |
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 20, 2022 19:13:51 GMT
I wasn't being critical of Chester. He did really well for us and was discarded too soon in my opinion. As for the comparative strengths of the collective backlines, you are probably right that We conceded fewer goals back then but that is in part because we were much more conservative as a team. Neco and Roberts are wingbacks who get forward at every oppotunity. In 2016, we essentially played with five specialist defenders. I disagree with this. People were claiming this in 2016 as well but in truth, despite being limited players, Gunter and Taylor were playing extremely offensively, and were very often in wide forward positions. This was a feature of our play I think, and not just occasional ventures up the field. Taylor in particular often found himself in centre forward positions (see his goal v Russia in ‘16, as well as his position v Belgium where he was drawing defenders’ attention when Hal did that turn). As well as Taylor’s goal, Ashley Williams also scored in that tournament and Gunter got an assist. We were quite fluid and attacking. Whilst I agree we did push them high up, and apart from those two examples, didn't you ever get frustrated by the lack of end product from them? They did take up space but beyond giving the defence something to worry about, they didn't do too much else. I was happy with Roberts, but he too is starting to not have much to show from going forward (since Turkey). Neco isn't doing too bad. Both a major upgrade on 2016 though. |
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Post by highbury06 on Nov 21, 2022 4:10:54 GMT
Not sure if I'm the only one who obsessed over 'that squad'. I have been thinking about it and I'd have it almost 50/50. Hennessey now>Hennessey 2016 (Definitely got more faith in him now) Roberts>Gunter Williams>Mepham Chester>Rodon Davies now>Davies 2016 Neco>Taylor Allen 2016>Allen now Ledley>Ampadu Ramsey now>Ramsey 2016 (a bit more experience) Bale 2016>Bale now James>HRK Needless to say Johnson, Moore and Wilson are upgrades on Church, Vokes and King. The spine of the team is 2016 though, I felt we just clicked then but didn't have the imagination in the attack. Yes Hennessey is more reliable now actually. If it is a league game i would pick Ward, but for a cup game it has to be Hennessey becoz of his consistency |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 24, 2022 21:31:36 GMT
I disagree with this. People were claiming this in 2016 as well but in truth, despite being limited players, Gunter and Taylor were playing extremely offensively, and were very often in wide forward positions. This was a feature of our play I think, and not just occasional ventures up the field. Taylor in particular often found himself in centre forward positions (see his goal v Russia in ‘16, as well as his position v Belgium where he was drawing defenders’ attention when Hal did that turn). As well as Taylor’s goal, Ashley Williams also scored in that tournament and Gunter got an assist. We were quite fluid and attacking. Whilst I agree we did push them high up, and apart from those two examples, didn't you ever get frustrated by the lack of end product from them? They did take up space but beyond giving the defence something to worry about, they didn't do too much else. I was happy with Roberts, but he too is starting to not have much to show from going forward (since Turkey). Neco isn't doing too bad. Both a major upgrade on 2016 though. Think the future could well be Neco at RWB and then a proper left footed attacking LWB on the other side, with Connor still in the squad, but not our best option |
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Post by talyfan on Mar 9, 2023 15:49:47 GMT
Goalkeepers
Wayne Hennessey - Sub keeper at Nottingham Forest
Danny Ward - Starting for Leicester
Owain Fon Williams - Retired - Now Goalkeeper coach for Fleetwood Town but was on the bench the other day
Defenders
Ben Davies - Spurs
James Chester - Derby County
James Collins - Retired - Luxury Watch dealer
Chris Gunter - Retired from int but still playing for Wimbledon
Jazz Richards - Haverfordwest
Neil Taylor - Retired - Coaching Wales U21's
Ashley Williams - Retired - Doing a bit of coaching and punditry
Midfielders
Joe Allen - Retired from intl football but still playing for Swansea City
David Edwards - Retired from intl football but still playing for Bala Town
Andy King - Don't think he's retired from intl football but still playing for Bristol City
Joe Ledley - Retired has his coaching business and part of a football agency
Aaron Ramsey - OGC Nice
David Vaughan - Retired - Assistant Manager of Crewe U18s
Jonathan Williams - Swindon Town
George Williams - Hemel Hempstead (Conference South) still only 27!
Attackers
Gareth Bale - Retired - Playing golf
Simon Church - Retired - Does something to with Cannabis oils and then some weird NFT and Esport business what ever that means??
David Cotterill - Retired - Full time village idiot.
Hal Robson-Kanu - Retired - Owns some tumeric business
Sam Vokes - Wycombe Wanderers
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Post by paj on Mar 9, 2023 22:10:30 GMT
I wondered what had happened to George Williams.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Mar 9, 2023 22:16:36 GMT
Surprised to hear George Williams had dropped that low. I think the last time I'd heard anything about him he was at Forest Green, so I'm surprised to hear he couldn't even land at a National League team
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