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Post by iot on Nov 21, 2023 13:38:07 GMT
Some good ideas and suggestions on potential lineups and what changes could be made for tonight but I think we might be dreaming if we think Page will do anything other than the exact same team as Saturday with maybe Brooks swapped for Johnson or James. I'm not at all under the illusion that Page is a great manager, but some of the stuff that gets thrown at him is nonsense. I see people on Twitter slagging him off for being too defensive - this despite the fact that things went wrong in this campaign when he played a ridiculously attacking team at home against Armenia with only Ampadu providing protection for the defence. The same was true at the WC. Also this idea that he's a completely predictable manager with no creative thought in his mind - I've lost track of how many times he's caused shocks with his team selections. On the other thread you have hooky laying in to him for including the likes of Bradshaw and Cullen in the squad (despite them not playing), when he and other managers in the past have been blasted for not giving more opportunities to those types of players (Bradshaw in particular). We're just back to the point where we were pre-Croatia. People are frustrated after a poor result, and are just venting and throwing all sorts of random criticisms at Page, most of them make little sense when you actually think about it / look at the facts. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 21, 2023 13:40:32 GMT
I'm surprised that people are ignoring the very short turnaround in games. We will have one day to prepare for this game, so a big change in formation, personnel and tactical approach just isn't realistic at this point.
Far better to tweak things. There are dangers in going for a high press for sure. Turkiye may be able to play through it, but maybe not. The trouble is we may otherwise not see a lot of the ball, and the downside of having two defensively minded DMs is that there isn't a lot of creativity for us to play through the thirds. We will be left relying on a probably knackered Moore, hoping we can do better in getting players in support.
I acknowledge that going for a high press is risky, but I think it's our best bet for getting our noses in front, at which point we can sit deeper and look to hit Turkiye on the break. Turkiye are good technically but not outstanding, and even the best sides can struggle with a high press if they're not really on their game.
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Post by iot on Nov 21, 2023 13:41:29 GMT
I was referring to the change in personnel that the change in shape brings, but fair comment. I would still maintain, however, that we've looked much more balanced with a back 5. We've switched between a back 4 and a back 5 several times since Page took over, and generally I'd say we've been better with the latter. But I would have a problem with throwing caution to the wind tonight given the circumstances. Absolutely agree. I’ve always thought we’re more comfortable with a back 3 + wingbacks in the last decade or so. But that’s not to say there’s an inherent problem with 4-2-3-1 or whatever - it just depends on personnel, and we have a different team now to when we last tried it. Mot saying I’m calling for it tonight though! (Not saying I’m not either…) sorry, my comment should have read 'I would n't have a problem with throwing caution to the wind tonight'! I'm not sure our team is that different to the last time we tried it - it's essentially just James in for Morrell. We have Moore back too (if we're comparing to Turkey away), although he played the first couple of game in the 4231 formation and we weren't particularly impressive in those either |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 21, 2023 13:58:02 GMT
The other approach, to add a bit of nuance, is to emulate the Armenians, who went for a mid-high block. Not a very high press but starting a good 10 to 20 metres ahead of our mid block, where our front three were midway between the halfway line and their goal.
The Armenian front three made things uncomfortable for our defensive three and then their wingbacks aggressively engaged our wing backs as soon as they received the ball. So most of their pressing was in the middle third, but in our defensive half, rather than higher up the pitch. So the Armenian approach was effectively to try and play 10 to 20 metres higher up the pitch, and it mainly worked.
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Post by manulike on Nov 21, 2023 14:50:10 GMT
#Yes.We.Will
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 21, 2023 15:02:37 GMT
To be fair I think the intention is always to push the wing backs up high and wide. For whatever reason though they put the brakes on. I know our defence hasn't let a goal in from open play in a few matches, but they aren't the most solid. Maybe there's a fear of going forward. I'll give energy, but I dont think we'd have any chance of holding anything up with him there. He's a bit weak on the ball, can't take a player on. That bit where he fell over when Moore and the defender took themselves out has been haunting me too. Out of possession we definitely had no intention from the off of pushing our wing backs up. Watch the first 10 minutes back and you'll see what I mean - a definite 5-2-3. Osian Roberts commented on our wing back positioning being an issue 21 minutes into the first half. He also stressed the importance of getting support for Moore. I've nothing against 4 at the back per se, but it failed abysmally against Armenia at home, and I think with the short turnaround a big change in formation and tactics is asking for trouble. Better to tweak the formation and personnel and only change to a back 4 as a plan b. Yeah I know they don't push forward. I think it's through fear incase they get caught out. Taylor and Gunter to be fair were sometimes the highest forward. I consider Neco and Roberts better than both those but for whatever reason don't get forward. |
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Post by playslikeiniesta on Nov 21, 2023 15:34:14 GMT
Seem to be plenty of spare tickets knocking around for this game now……
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Post by fireboy0610 on Nov 21, 2023 15:39:30 GMT
Seem to be plenty of spare tickets knocking around for this game now…… Did you go to armenia? |
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Post by fireboy0610 on Nov 21, 2023 16:05:05 GMT
Both tickets gone to proper fans 🙄
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Post by vvm on Nov 21, 2023 16:12:04 GMT
To be fair we've got a 3% chance of qualifying tonight, I wouldn't begrudge anybody moving on their tickets especially if they have a decent distance to travel to make it.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 21, 2023 16:38:00 GMT
To be fair we've got a 3% chance of qualifying tonight, I wouldn't begrudge anybody moving on their tickets especially if they have a decent distance to travel to make it. I'm surprised it's that low. I'd give Armenia a slightly higher chance of nabbing a draw personally and us winning - maybe 10-15%. That being said I don't think it will happen |
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Post by manulike on Nov 21, 2023 16:47:40 GMT
To be fair we've got a 3% chance of qualifying tonight, I wouldn't begrudge anybody moving on their tickets especially if they have a decent distance to travel to make it. I'm surprised it's that low. I'd give Armenia a slightly higher chance of nabbing a draw personally and us winning - maybe 10-15%. That being said I don't think it will happen 15% chance sounds about right. But 100% optimisim ;-)
#YesWeCan
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vader
steve evans
Posts: 29
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Post by vader on Nov 21, 2023 16:52:07 GMT
The stars will really have to align for us to get what we want tonight, but until it's over I will believe it's possible!
One of the big worries is how much Saturday's effort took out of the Armenians, like us, they seemed to be out on their feet at the end. Big task for them to go and do the same tonight, however they can be stubborn and seem to be good tactically. Croatia are also not that blessed with attacking talent so a draw is not out of the question.
Would be just like us to not get the win while Armenia do their job, though.
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Post by janglingjack on Nov 21, 2023 16:56:29 GMT
i just think of Greece winning the euros or Leicester winning the premier league,anything can happen,be a little miracle though i suppose but you never know  |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 21, 2023 17:35:32 GMT
Modric nearly played the full 90 against Latvia, and I think Kovacic is out (unless he was suspended for the Latvia game). So, Croatia won't be fresh either. I think Armenia could give them a game, but the biggest doubt is whether they are up to it mentally, given it's a dead rubber for them.
I've watched the highlights of Turkey's games, and their mobility up front is a concern, as iot intimated. So, perhaps a high press isn't on. But a mid-high press, similar to Armenia against us, might do the trick. The complicating factor is that Turkiye play a 4-3-3 I think, similar to Croatia.
Might we revert to similar tactics to those against Croatia and try and congest play into the middle third? I hope not, given Turkiye's greater mobility up front. It's a real conundrum. One thing's for sure, we need to tailor our approach to take into account Turkiye's strengths and weaknesses.
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Post by dai on Nov 21, 2023 17:54:34 GMT
Haven't really been keeping tabs on the permutations these past few days. I don't think we'll beat Turkey, however what do we need from the Armenia Croatia game? Is a draw ok if we win?
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Post by manulike on Nov 21, 2023 17:57:42 GMT
Haven't really been keeping tabs on the permutations these past few days. I don't think we'll beat Turkey, however what do we need from the Armenia Croatia game? Is a draw ok if we win? Yes. Simples ;-) |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 21, 2023 18:12:33 GMT
Haven't really been keeping tabs on the permutations these past few days. I don't think we'll beat Turkey, however what do we need from the Armenia Croatia game? Is a draw ok if we win? Yes, but it's not happening. I've already accepted we're in the play-offs so may as well just focus on that. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 21, 2023 18:43:18 GMT
Wilson, Broadhead and Johnson up front, otherwise team as expected. We may be going for a high press after all. Tighten your seat belts, because this could go either way.
Bit surprised James isn't starting rather than Wilson, but perhaps Wilson is a bit more of an all-rounder.
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 21, 2023 18:51:56 GMT
8 changes made by Turkiye, so they will clearly be fresh. A massive challenge ahead of us tonight. Changing two of the front three makes sense from an energetic standpoint, but a big ask of Broadhead.
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Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 21, 2023 18:52:39 GMT
Looking at the odds Turkey are out to almost 2/1 to win the game now, bit surprising considering recent results.
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Post by melynwy on Nov 21, 2023 18:53:03 GMT
Haven't really been keeping tabs on the permutations these past few days. I don't think we'll beat Turkey, however what do we need from the Armenia Croatia game? Is a draw ok if we win? Yes, but it's not happening. I've already accepted we're in the play-offs so may as well just focus on that. You sound as though you’re on the team staff! Why do is fans need to “focus” on any scenario? We’re supposed to be allowed to dream that we can do it tonight, that’s why we follow football. Us fand “focusing” on the playoffs isn’t going to help anyone. We can watch all the games, so might as well hope for the best! |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 21, 2023 18:55:34 GMT
No Kovacic for Croatia tonight. Their starting eleven doesn't look that impressive.
Clutching at straws...
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Post by conwy10 on Nov 21, 2023 19:00:44 GMT
Yes, but it's not happening. I've already accepted we're in the play-offs so may as well just focus on that. You sound as though you’re on the team staff! Why do is fans need to “focus” on any scenario? We’re supposed to be allowed to dream that we can do it tonight, that’s why we follow football. Us fand “focusing” on the playoffs isn’t going to help anyone. We can watch all the games, so might as well hope for the best! It's the hope that gets you. |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Nov 21, 2023 19:02:35 GMT
Yes, but it's not happening. I've already accepted we're in the play-offs so may as well just focus on that. You sound as though you’re on the team staff! Why do is fans need to “focus” on any scenario? We’re supposed to be allowed to dream that we can do it tonight, that’s why we follow football. Us fand “focusing” on the playoffs isn’t going to help anyone. We can watch all the games, so might as well hope for the best! You're missing the point. I'm talking as a fan. I've learnt watching Wales all these years that getting excited and anticipating success only leads to crushing disappointment (mostly pre-Bale era and now post-Bale). Of course we'll all be watching it hoping for the best, we just don't need to be setting ourselves up for disappointment. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 21, 2023 19:03:41 GMT
Turkiye 2 changes compared to team against Croatia.
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 21, 2023 19:04:12 GMT
Any thoughts on the actual game tonight?
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Post by dai on Nov 21, 2023 19:08:01 GMT
Concerned to see Broadhead starting.
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Post by winsumluzsum on Nov 21, 2023 19:09:58 GMT
Will be interesting to see how we set up out of possession. Turkiye seem to play a 4-1-4-1. If we do go for a high press do we drop Broadhead back in to midfield to deal with their single pivot? With the other 2 10s and the wing backs pushing on?
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Post by melynwy on Nov 21, 2023 19:15:50 GMT
You sound as though you’re on the team staff! Why do is fans need to “focus” on any scenario? We’re supposed to be allowed to dream that we can do it tonight, that’s why we follow football. Us fand “focusing” on the playoffs isn’t going to help anyone. We can watch all the games, so might as well hope for the best! You're missing the point. I'm talking as a fan. I've learnt watching Wales all these years that getting excited and anticipating success only leads to crushing disappointment (mostly pre-Bale era and now post-Bale). Of course we'll all be watching it hoping for the best, we just don't need to be setting ourselves up for disappointment. Doesn’t the same apply to the playoffs too? So why ‘focus’ on anything? |
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