Progress? Is there any?

[winsumluzsum]

Considering our successes in qualifying for major tournaments and having an esteemed coach educator course, I would have expected by now to see some signs of progress in the style and success of our Cymru Premier sides in Europe, and the development of a coherent and progressive style of play in our youth teams. I see none whatsoever. Am I being harsh?

Don't let the result fool you, Iceland were the better side tonight and were denied by two debatable refereeing decisions. We were also vastly inferior to the Czech team, despite our squad looking good on paper.

The biggest disappointment for me is in the quality of our age grade coaches. Surely we can expect better than we've seen from Page, Bodin and now Jones? There has been nothing remotely like a progressive brand of football, at times it feels we're no better than we were in the 80s, all hwyl and getting stuck in, and that's it.

[allezlesrouges]

The Cymru Premier has improved it's just that other nations have also improved and aren't hampered by not having their 5 best clubs in their system

We also haven't had the magic combination of

1) Teams playing mid-season (it's always pre-season)
2) Teams having a good season & a good draw simultaneously

[winsumluzsum]

To an extent I accept those points, but it does feel a little bit like special pleading. My main gripe is with the youth setup, and the complete absence of anything that could be said to be a Welsh Way of doing things. This could be in terms of a coherent football philosophy (ideally playing it out from the back), or even a consistent formation. I'm pretty sure that the Belgium FA insist that pretty much all teams in the country play a 4-3-3, but I stand to be corrected on this. They certainly have a strong hand on the rudder and it shows, with Belgium being consistently one of the top nations.

I can understand that with the wages we can offer that we may struggle to get top notch coaches for the age grade sides, but even so, surely there should be something resembling a consistent approach. You see this with the Swansea academy teams, so why not at national level? At the moment it feels as if we're content to feed off the crumbs that fall from the English table, and hope some quality falls our way. Surely we should be more ambitious than this?

[winsumluzsum]

To show I'm not making it up: edition.cnn.com/interactive/2021/06/sport/belgium-euro-2020-spt-intl/

This was particulary interesting: "Martínez now boasts of having three strong players in every position and a self-sustaining model that everybody has bought into -- no less than 23 players are a third of the way through UEFA’s three-year coaching course and, at the end of their playing careers, are expected to return to work in Belgium to help develop the next generation." Why can't the FAW encourage a similar approach with our national squad members, especially considering the strength of the coach educator program? It really feels that there is a lack of the can do attitude that the Belgians have clearly demonstrated. It feels like we've settled for being second best.

[allezlesrouges]

Belgium will always produce better players than us because of the strength of their national League

Yes they do other things well too, but their league churns out top players

[bale-droed]

Nov 16, 2023 21:13:54 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Considering our successes in qualifying for major tournaments and having an esteemed coach educator course, I would have expected by now to see some signs of progress in the style and success of our Cymru Premier sides in Europe, and the development of a coherent and progressive style of play in our youth teams. I see none whatsoever. Am I being harsh?

Don't let the result fool you, Iceland were the better side tonight and were denied by two debatable refereeing decisions. We were also vastly inferior to the Czech team, despite our squad looking good on paper.

The biggest disappointment for me is in the quality of our age grade coaches. Surely we can expect better than we've seen from Page, Bodin and now Jones? There has been nothing remotely like a progressive brand of football, at times it feels we're no better than we were in the 80s, all hwyl and getting stuck in, and that's it.

I agree. We rely on England to develop the majority of our players and the ones we develop are as a result of money going into Welsh teams who play in the English league. We need to be self sufficient at developing our players. The problem is Welsh people can be very traditional and tribal and don't like change. In the top division we should have an under 23 development team playing out of dragon park.

[winsumluzsum]

I want to be realistic about what we can achieve, given the modest resources of the FAW. But deciding on a formation, and 4-3-3 is a good choice, and getting current internationals to do their coaching badges with the FAW, during their playing careers, seems eminently achievable. This is a good way of achieving the sort of continuity of success that the Belgians are enjoying.

[surge]

Is picking a set formation the best idea?

Man City have played maybe four different formations in the last four weeks and are probably best club side (see reasons off the field for why) in the world at the moment.

Or do we say that on limited resources this total tactical/formation flexibility is beyond us and playing a formation extremely well is better?

We have a Welsh Way document. We should be seeing some degree of Welsh principles throughout the age groups. Bear in mind that success or not of this to be judged over period of time rather than just one game - if the opposition have cut out playing from the back but vulnerable to longer passes then latter is right tactic to use for that game.

[iot]

I don't think things are as bleak as being made out. Euro16, though difficult to measure, will have undoubtedly had a positive legacy impact. We're still going to face the same limitations, but it's difficult to see how it wouldn't have inspired, increased football activity, as well as the infrastructural improvements from the financial rewards etc.

I sort of agree that the performances of the u21s have not quite matched what we could have hoped for, but I think they've been better than what's being suggested. I think Colwill and Harris looked good yesterday when they had the ball, but we just struggled to get them on the ball all too often. A lot of the players in that side yesterday haven't played with each other that often - this is the first campaign really where some of those crucial partnerships are being formed - the front three of Thomas, Colwill, and Harris, and the midfield base of Savage and Hammond. I think we're starting to see that understanding being built - the performance yesterday was much better than Czech away, and the second half in Czech was a massive improvement on the first. So hopefully we'll only get better. Also need to be mindful of the quality of opposition - Denmark are supposedly one of the best sides at this level and I heard the commentator say yesterday that much of the Icelandic team had been together for a while and qualified for the u19s last summer. If you have a quick look at their results over the last year, they're quite impressive (including a draw with Portugal in their last campaign). They were technically good and pressed really well, which is why we struggled to dominate possession. But I think we edged it in terms of chances.

[iot]

Also just to say, whilst the performances have been a bit of a mixed bag, the results have been fantastic. We haven't had a sniff of qualifying for anything since that Rambo-inspired u21 side, and before that we'd gone decades without getting close. We've now had a youth side qualifying for a tournament for the first time since the 80s and our u21s are currently sitting top of their group having played the two hardest fixtures. So returning to the tile of the thread - the evidence certainly suggests we have made good progress.

[jbt95]

I wouldn’t worry too much about age-grade football.

Majority of highly capped U21 players make hardly any senior appearances, even for the bigger countries.

[conwy10]

In my opinion I think the academy system in Wales has its flaws. So many treat the matches as must wins instead of gradual progression. Seeing referee's abused over marginal decisions and coaches talking players through matches, how will they ever become leaders if they just follow instructions, like watching robots play. I've been at one where we practiced patterns of build up play twice a week before on the weekend being told to hit it long and hope for set pieces.

Not asking for the coaches to be quiet all match, but some seem to think the matches are about themselves instead of the players.

[wft]

iesu!

[winsumluzsum]

Nov 17, 2023 10:26:59 GMT iot said:

Also just to say, whilst the performances have been a bit of a mixed bag, the results have been fantastic. We haven't had a sniff of qualifying for anything since that Rambo-inspired u21 side, and before that we'd gone decades without getting close. We've now had a youth side qualifying for a tournament for the first time since the 80s and our u21s are currently sitting top of their group having played the two hardest fixtures. So returning to the tile of the thread - the evidence certainly suggests we have made good progress.

You're easily pleased. The results have been good but we've been lucky with three of the four. Denmark had two sent off, the Czechs should have been out of sight, and Iceland (a country with a population smaller than Cardiff) had one perfectly good goal chalked off and were denied a stonewall penalty, apart from creating more chances in open play. We could easily be sitting on 3 points instead of 8. We can't keep relying on luck to progress in the competition.

In any event, I'd take performing well over results at age grade level. It's all about developing good habits, to make the progression to senior level that much easier. The Swansea age grade sides play lovely progressive stuff, so I see no reason why Cymru U21s can't do likewise, especially with the likes of Colwill and Harris in side. The latter in particular must be a lot better than he's showing for us.

My feeling is that we've stagnated. Perhaps that has a lot to the departure of Osian Roberts from the FAW. It's not even that we have to innovate. The 4-3-3 suggestion would perhaps be more difficult to implement in a meaningful way, given the overarching control of EFL and Premier League academies. But trying to get current Welsh internationals to start their coaching early with the FAW would be very congruent, and would be leveraging our excellence in coach education.

I get the feeling that the Welsh disease of being content to be second rate infects the outlook of the FAW and fans alike.

[surge]

Regarding Welsh internationals doing their coaching in Wales:

- Boaz Myhill
- Lewis Price
- Neil Taylor
- Chris Gunter

I'm sure I've missed a few but each of these are examples of ex-players becoming coaches with Wales.

[iot]

Nov 17, 2023 19:15:01 GMT winsumluzsum said:

Nov 17, 2023 10:26:59 GMT iot said:

Also just to say, whilst the performances have been a bit of a mixed bag, the results have been fantastic. We haven't had a sniff of qualifying for anything since that Rambo-inspired u21 side, and before that we'd gone decades without getting close. We've now had a youth side qualifying for a tournament for the first time since the 80s and our u21s are currently sitting top of their group having played the two hardest fixtures. So returning to the tile of the thread - the evidence certainly suggests we have made good progress.

You're easily pleased. The results have been good but we've been lucky with three of the four. Denmark had two sent off, the Czechs should have been out of sight, and Iceland (a country with a population smaller than Cardiff) had one perfectly good goal chalked off and were denied a stonewall penalty, apart from creating more chances in open play. We could easily be sitting on 3 points instead of 8. We can't keep relying on luck to progress in the competition.

In any event, I'd take performing well over results at age grade level. It's all about developing good habits, to make the progression to senior level that much easier. The Swansea age grade sides play lovely progressive stuff, so I see no reason why Cymru U21s can't do likewise, especially with the likes of Colwill and Harris in side. The latter in particular must be a lot better than he's showing for us.

My feeling is that we've stagnated. Perhaps that has a lot to the departure of Osian Roberts from the FAW. It's not even that we have to innovate. The 4-3-3 suggestion would perhaps be more difficult to implement in a meaningful way, given the overarching control of EFL and Premier League academies. But trying to get current Welsh internationals to start their coaching early with the FAW would be very congruent, and would be leveraging our excellence in coach education.

I get the feeling that the Welsh disease of being content to be second rate infects the outlook of the FAW and fans alike.

'You're easily pleased.'

Not at all - just pointing out the facts. We can all make subjective judgements about how good the performances have been - I agree to an extent that they could have been better (albeit think you're overly critical and exaggerating the supposed dominance of the opposition) - but the best metric we have to measure progress, obviously, are the results.

Didn't see the Denmark game so can't comment on it, but agree that it was disappointing to lose a 2-1 lead when they had a man sent off. The Czechs were all over us first half, but we had by far the better of the second half. Still probably didn't deserve the draw, but it was much more competitive than you make out. The win against Iceland was a very good result - disagree that their goal was perfectly good, looked like it was off the arm, and I think we created the better opportunities, despite them having most of the ball. 

The fact that you refer to Iceland as a country with a smaller population than Cardiff (when we know they overperform at all levels - just look at their u21 results, and ask England about their senior side) and refer to Denmark's two sending offs (despite the latter being administered in the last 10mins i.e. after we conceded the equalizer) - two slightly misleading statements, suggests to me that you're not engaging in good faith. 

[winsumluzsum]

Shame you've chosen to ignore the substantive issues I've raised.

[surge]

There's a Cymru Youth thread which shows what our youth team looked like on page 1 and I think it shows there has been progress.

Should the team be as coherent as a club youth team? Probably not, but we want there to be a good level by under 21 level.

Is it about having a fixed formation? I don't think so and think this is past 10 years rather than next 10 year. Should we have have ex-Welsh players continue to play a role as coaches? Yes, but I think we are doing that.

I don't think we're stagnating. We're getting better results and it seems more of our players are going to be in top two leagues than from past youth teams, but it's not yet as good as maybe we thought it could be and lots more work to do.