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Post by hooky on Jul 17, 2024 19:27:28 GMT
Is this the only individual thread for one of our women's players? Think of the players who have had longer threads without representing Wales (yet), which probably shows we have some way to go in supporting the women's team and shows the wider world our women's players are working in. Turning up over 150 times for the love of football/her nation in that environment is to be admired. I was going to make that point earlier but thought what is the point. To your point though - how many multi page threads do I see discussing some obscure 16-22 year old (who no one has seen) in a Premiership academy but not doing much or at a lower division team without being in the first team / maybe on the bench sometimes. I have little interest personally as there is <1% chance many of them will make a meaningful impact for Wales. Compare that to a simple thread acknowledging a sensational player in the women's game, probably our best ever female player, and you get the negative comments on the nigh she hits a massive milestone. I have been following both women's football and rugby and the worst thing is, particularly in respect to the rugby, when I post something there is sometimes hardly a response which shows a massive lack of interest, despite the women's game being 100x better than it was 5-10 years ago / despite its rapid development / improvement. My own son resists any effort I make to highlight fantastic moments in respect to the women's game. I really hope the women's game in both sports continues to thrive and grow strongly - they absolutely deserve it as they continue to be presented with massive barriers. Think of how relatively little Fishlock gets paid and she jumps on a 10 hour plus transatlantic flight and plays like that for her country, presumably jaded, at the age of 37 going on 38. She probably has one or two days to get over the jet lag. Her drive is to get her country qualified and inspire future generations and she is contributing massively towards that goal. Her club team mate in the US Lily Woodham is one of our best players and is young but notably played just 20 or so minutes in these last 2 matches - presumably because she is not in the right state given the drain travelling that distance has on you physically and mentally. If that is not iconic, together with achieving an incredible record, then I don't know what is! |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Jul 17, 2024 19:32:12 GMT
Is this the only individual thread for one of our women's players? Think of the players who have had longer threads without representing Wales (yet), which probably shows we have some way to go in supporting the women's team and shows the wider world our women's players are working in. Turning up over 150 times for the love of football/her nation in that environment is to be admired. And a thread that was started 7 years ago that hasn't gone beyond a single page. Doesn't that tell you something? Maybe people just don't find women's football as a product as exciting to watch as the men's game, as incredulous as that may sound to you. I've said before you can't ram things down people's throats, in the end the public will decide what they want to watch and what will be popular. |
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Post by surge on Jul 17, 2024 19:32:44 GMT
We have what, nine players in Wales who have reached 100 international football caps in men's and women's football?
We have what, two players who have won their Champions League?
One woman has a thread in their own name and the reason she's going to get a second page is because of this sort of debate. Feck that.
Here's what the woman of the hour said:
"To everyone in my comments, going out of their way to say a graphic of my achievements is disrespectful to mens players.
Not a single person is comparing our careers, except you.
We are one nation, playing one sport.
Celebrating Cymru success together."
And furthermore:
"Wales I love you very much.
It’s been an honour to represent you my whole career. There is nothing better than being Welsh.
Thankyou to all my team mates past and present for helping me reach these moments.
ON TO PLAY OFFS !!!!!"
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Post by melynwy on Jul 17, 2024 19:37:24 GMT
There’s nothing silly about a statement such as and neither is it silly to say that someone has a ‘Spanish style’. That is very obviously not the same as saying “good enough to play for Spain”. Everything's obvious to you isn't it. What's silly is making comparisons from a different sport in an attempt to elevate women's football beyond where it merits. You don't see anyone mentioning any of our age grade players in the same sentence as our greatest ever player. But why not? They're already playing at a higher standard than the women. Has anyone here actually watched and studied Spanish women's football? I'm guessing not. When someone says "Spanish style" they are referring to what they've seen in the men's game, so why even mention it here? You haven’t read the comments you’re replying to have you. The comparison to Bale is as a “greatest ever” for a given team. You’re saying the women’s team can’t claim a “greatest ever” player? The quote literally, specifically,yes OBVIOUSLY, said that Fishlock achievements and importance were in relation to the women’s team. But somehow you missed that. |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Jul 17, 2024 19:44:46 GMT
We have what, nine players in Wales who have reached 100 international football caps in men's and women's football? We have what, two players who have won their Champions League? One woman has a thread in their own name and the reason she's going to get a second page is because of this sort of debate. Feck that. Here's what the woman of the hour said: "To everyone in my comments, going out of their way to say a graphic of my achievements is disrespectful to mens players. Not a single person is comparing our careers, except you. We are one nation, playing one sport. Celebrating Cymru success together." And furthermore: "Wales I love you very much. It’s been an honour to represent you my whole career. There is nothing better than being Welsh. Thankyou to all my team mates past and present for helping me reach these moments. ON TO PLAY OFFS !!!!!" She clearly hasn't read her own thread on Apostle then has she 😂 |
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Post by melynwy on Jul 17, 2024 19:45:40 GMT
You don't see anyone mentioning any of our age grade players in the same sentence as our greatest ever player. Not so much with the lower age grades, because those teams are not the end game for them- they’re aiming to break through to the seniors, so you barely ever get a discussion about the U21’s greatest of all time, for example (could be a fascinating discussion though! But you get do get plenty of discussion, by those who are interested, about the greatest players ever for clubs and nations of all levels. This is exactly the same. For any club or nation, be it your Holyhead Hotspur or Real Madrid; San Marino or Spain- their greatest players means as much to them as Gareth Bale does for the Wales men team. For the women’s team, it’s Jess Fishlock. Nobody said Fishlock is as good as Bale. Nobody said Wales Women are as good as Spain men. Nobody said the women’s game is at the same level as the men’s game. |
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Post by melynwy on Jul 17, 2024 19:51:08 GMT
We have what, nine players in Wales who have reached 100 international football caps in men's and women's football? We have what, two players who have won their Champions League? One woman has a thread in their own name and the reason she's going to get a second page is because of this sort of debate. Feck that. Here's what the woman of the hour said: "To everyone in my comments, going out of their way to say a graphic of my achievements is disrespectful to mens players. Not a single person is comparing our careers, except you. We are one nation, playing one sport. Celebrating Cymru success together." And furthermore: "Wales I love you very much. It’s been an honour to represent you my whole career. There is nothing better than being Welsh. Thankyou to all my team mates past and present for helping me reach these moments. ON TO PLAY OFFS !!!!!" She clearly hasn't read her own thread on Apostle then has she 😂 The only comparison was as the greatest ever player for their respective sides! Can you really not see that, or are you choosing not to?! Genuinely, where is the problem with saying that Fishlock is as iconic to the women’s team as Bale is for the men’s team?! You can compare unrelated things in relation to their importance in their specific field! Apples are as important to me as oranges might be to someone else. See? |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Jul 17, 2024 19:55:48 GMT
Everything's obvious to you isn't it. What's silly is making comparisons from a different sport in an attempt to elevate women's football beyond where it merits. You don't see anyone mentioning any of our age grade players in the same sentence as our greatest ever player. But why not? They're already playing at a higher standard than the women. Has anyone here actually watched and studied Spanish women's football? I'm guessing not. When someone says "Spanish style" they are referring to what they've seen in the men's game, so why even mention it here? You haven’t read the comments you’re replying to have you. The comparison to Bale is as a “greatest ever” for a given team. You’re saying the women’s team can’t claim a “greatest ever” player? The quote literally, specifically,yes OBVIOUSLY, said that Fishlock achievements and importance were in relation to the women’s team. But somehow you missed that. It's you that's missing the point. Of course there can be a goat player in the women's game, and there are. What I'm saying is there's no comparison with the scale and magnitude of the men's game, so why even mention Bale? There are many players who have achieved a lot at lower levels of the men's game, playing at a much higher standard than the women, but no one's going over the top celebrating them. Why is that do you think? |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jul 17, 2024 19:57:53 GMT
I agree with all of that apart from the first sentence. It really makes no sense at any time to put the women's game and the men's game on a single scale of evaluation. It only makes sense to look at them as completely separate things, especially at this point in time when the women's game is still in its infancy, albeit that it's catching up. Fishlock is an icon of the women's game for certain, and deserves the praise she getting. I mean you're not wrong, but good luck getting that point through to him 👍😅 I'm clearly struggling to get that point to you, because it's pretty clear you're directly comparing the men's and women's game, which would be a meaningless comparison even if it wasn't so unfair at this early point in the evolution of the women's game. |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Jul 17, 2024 20:02:32 GMT
I mean you're not wrong, but good luck getting that point through to him 👍😅 I'm clearly struggling to get that point to you, because it's pretty clear you're directly comparing the men's and women's game, which would be a meaningless comparison even if it wasn't so unfair at this early point in the evolution of the women's game. No no no, I'm the one saying let's not do that, I'm trying to address people who are doing it. |
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Post by mrpicton79 on Jul 17, 2024 20:07:04 GMT
She clearly hasn't read her own thread on Apostle then has she 😂 The only comparison was as the greatest ever player for their respective sides! Can you really not see that, or are you choosing not to?! Genuinely, where is the problem with saying that Fishlock is as iconic to the women’s team as Bale is for the men’s team?! You can compare unrelated things in relation to their importance in their specific field! Apples are as important to me as oranges might be to someone else. See? See this is the problem. Folk like you never post in the women's football thread(s), because ultimately you have no interest in it as a sport. It's only when you see a spicy debate going on that you want to get involved. |
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Post by kracken88 on Jul 17, 2024 20:11:47 GMT
I think even the amount of caps she has is amazing,even if she was travelling five miles down the road it's probably 150 weekends out of her life,and god knows how many miles she has travelled to play,just for that I say fair play,I'm never
going to say I like women's football as much as mens because I probably never will,but I can admire dedication
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jul 17, 2024 20:11:53 GMT
I'm clearly struggling to get that point to you, because it's pretty clear you're directly comparing the men's and women's game, which would be a meaningless comparison even if it wasn't so unfair at this early point in the evolution of the women's game. No no no, I'm the one saying let's not do that, I'm trying to address people who are doing it. If you were to evaluate the women's game objectively as something distinct from the men's game then you wouldn't be as disparaging as you've been, bearing in mind where it's at in it's evolution. |
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jul 17, 2024 20:17:34 GMT
I wonder if the FAW is now regretting posting that graphic on X placing Fishlock above Bale? The response was inevitable and the shitstorm has only detracted and deflected worthy praise from Fishlock's achievements.
I hate all this culture wars stuff and dislike the readiness to throw about terms like "woke", which are intended to close down thoughtful conversation, but on this occasion I can see where people are coming from. Not clever from the FAW.
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Post by kracken88 on Jul 17, 2024 20:23:08 GMT
Yep agree, comparing them is just a pointless minefield,just have to respect and enjoy each thing for what it is,and at the end of the day we all want to see our country prosper is sports
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Post by mrpicton79 on Jul 17, 2024 20:24:26 GMT
No no no, I'm the one saying let's not do that, I'm trying to address people who are doing it. If you were to evaluate the women's game objectively as something distinct from the men's game then you wouldn't be as disparaging as you've been, bearing in mind where it's at in it's evolution. What have I said that's so disparaging? Pointing out things that are true doesn't necessarily equate to disparaging. |
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Post by kracken88 on Jul 17, 2024 20:26:53 GMT
It seems the problem you have is more with the media and social media than the actual sport itself
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Post by winsumluzsum on Jul 17, 2024 20:31:16 GMT
If you were to evaluate the women's game objectively as something distinct from the men's game then you wouldn't be as disparaging as you've been, bearing in mind where it's at in it's evolution. What have I said that's so disparaging? Pointing out things that are true doesn't necessarily equate to disparaging. I haven't seen you say anything complimentary about the women's game. That's not truth, just a very slanted negative perspective. |
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Post by surge on Jul 17, 2024 21:50:26 GMT
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Post by CrackityJones on Jul 17, 2024 22:03:04 GMT
Some crackers in there
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Post by mrpicton79 on Jul 17, 2024 22:56:34 GMT
What have I said that's so disparaging? Pointing out things that are true doesn't necessarily equate to disparaging. I haven't seen you say anything complimentary about the women's game. That's not truth, just a very slanted negative perspective. Why do I have to though? If you were asked about a sport (or anything) that you weren't particularly keen on and you thought was a little overpromoted would you feel obliged to say something complimentary about it? Perhaps you just need to learn to not be so oversensitive. |
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Post by CrackityJones on Jul 18, 2024 6:11:50 GMT
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Post by jimexotic on Jul 18, 2024 6:46:43 GMT
What's always stood out for me is her movement, it's different to other players that she shares the pitch with, she always looks a class above. What a career, what a woman.
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Post by talyfan on Jul 18, 2024 8:23:58 GMT
I think Fishlock during her career, what set her apart compared to a lot of her opponents and team mates is she started playing football at a much earlier age. Most girls at the time only started playing from ages of 10-12 y.o. you can tell Fishlock started much sooner. Doesn't sound like a lot but makes hell of a difference.
The way she moves, her mechanics and physical literacy when it comes to football and just general movement just looks more fluid and natural. From dribbling and how she just strikes a ball.
All changing now though girls knocking a ball around at a much younger age. It'll be interesting what women's game looks like in 10 years. Think we'll see one hell of a jump in overall quality.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jul 18, 2024 10:11:00 GMT
I think your generosity of spirit is commendable and I agree that Fishlock's dedication to Cymru is outstanding by any standards, but her achievements are in the context of a women's game still in its infancy. Stephen J Gould, the paleontologist, has written some excellent entertaining books that explain the quirks of evolution in a very engaging way. He was also a massive baseball fan, and very nerdy when it came to the statistics of the game, from which he drew parallels with evolution. One of his insights was how most of the exceptional performers of all time, statistically, played in the early history of the game. Their records may never be beaten. The reason why, is that they excelled at a time when the general standard was low, so it was so much easier to stand out from the average player. The same could be said of football. It's been said of John Charles that he was World class as both a striker and a centre half. Nowadays that is pretty much impossible because of the degree of specialisation and the difference in standard between the very best players and average players being so much greater in the past than nowadays. So, Fishlock is a great of the women's game that is still in its infancy. In 20 years time the women's game will be unrecognisable from the current game. That's no slight on the game as it stands, it's inevitable that it is where it's at. Given that the level of competition will be so much greater the chances are that Fishlock's caps and goals records will stand the test of time. She will remain an iconic figure I'm sure, just as John Charles is one in the men's game. But there is a context for their achievements that is worth exploring. Yes this is why you can't compare Maradona to Messi given that Messi has access to sports science that Maradona never did - they are almost playing different sports. But the point isn't to say "how would Maradona do in the modern game", it's "let's compare their achievements given the constraints of their respective eras". The fact that Fishlock is so good in an "infancy" phase of the sport is why her achievements are so impressive to me. She overcame the fact that there was zero infrastructure/support in place for her, and yet she still became a legend and a level above - that's why she's a Welsh icon to me |
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Post by hooky on Jul 18, 2024 21:46:11 GMT
I think your generosity of spirit is commendable and I agree that Fishlock's dedication to Cymru is outstanding by any standards, but her achievements are in the context of a women's game still in its infancy. Stephen J Gould, the paleontologist, has written some excellent entertaining books that explain the quirks of evolution in a very engaging way. He was also a massive baseball fan, and very nerdy when it came to the statistics of the game, from which he drew parallels with evolution. One of his insights was how most of the exceptional performers of all time, statistically, played in the early history of the game. Their records may never be beaten. The reason why, is that they excelled at a time when the general standard was low, so it was so much easier to stand out from the average player. The same could be said of football. It's been said of John Charles that he was World class as both a striker and a centre half. Nowadays that is pretty much impossible because of the degree of specialisation and the difference in standard between the very best players and average players being so much greater in the past than nowadays. So, Fishlock is a great of the women's game that is still in its infancy. In 20 years time the women's game will be unrecognisable from the current game. That's no slight on the game as it stands, it's inevitable that it is where it's at. Given that the level of competition will be so much greater the chances are that Fishlock's caps and goals records will stand the test of time. She will remain an iconic figure I'm sure, just as John Charles is one in the men's game. But there is a context for their achievements that is worth exploring. Yes this is why you can't compare Maradona to Messi given that Messi has access to sports science that Maradona never did - they are almost playing different sports. But the point isn't to say "how would Maradona do in the modern game", it's "let's compare their achievements given the constraints of their respective eras". The fact that Fishlock is so good in an "infancy" phase of the sport is why her achievements are so impressive to me. She overcame the fact that there was zero infrastructure/support in place for her, and yet she still became a legend and a level above - that's why she's a Welsh icon to me As Wilkinson noted There was a time when Wales players, including Fishlock, paid for the privilege to play for Wales All I hear on this forum is all Wales players should prioritise Wales before everything else, bla, bla, bla. Can you imagine paying to play for the privilege of getting to play on poor pitches all over Wales and abroad in front of just a couple of hundred of spectators max, of having no support, encouragement and no one caring much. You are sacrificing a lot of time to do that when you could be earnings hard cash for yourself and loved ones or just enjoying your life. I wish the sneerers could experience that for 6 months - they would appreciate how astonishing it is that people like Fishlock still want to give everything to Wales and inspire the next generation That is why the negative, sneering comments really get to me. Women's football had next to zero support and infrastructure behind it not so long ago and the investment in the game and developing players is still a drop in the ocean compared to the men's game. The sneering comments highlight quickly enough that you can't compare Fishlock to Bale and yet they forget to make the point that Fishlock demonstrates such amazing technique under pressure, scores key goals and keeps her body together at 37 and dedicates herself to Wales despite having zero support in the past and not the comparable level of support Bale would have had. The irony is astounding Sure men have significantly higher power and carry less body fat than women - that is just the way evolution has taken things, but for goodness sake, how anyone is unable to adjust for this in their heads and be unable to appreciate that watching the women can be just as exciting, interesting and rewarding and acknowledge that the gap with the men's game would materially close further if they had the same resources. All the people on this forum talking about Welsh players as if Wales should be their #1 priority in life - well its Ok making those comments but the reality is talk is cheap and we all know that such expectations are very unrealistic So lets just appreciate 2 icons of the men's and women's game who dedicated a large amount of their talent and commitment to Wales. The tragedy is I have missed out on seeing this special female player for the best part of 15 years of her career. Indeed, I would not have seen the talent of Fishlock if they had not started showing Wales women football games on tv. All I can say is that I would have missed out on many amazing experiences - so thank you Jess and more power to the women's game! |
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