|
|
Post by flynnfan on Aug 5, 2010 11:45:47 GMT
For me, as both a player and now as a pundit I was a fan at first but have grown very tired of him. I really don't think he's been a big loss as a player over the last few years, especially considering the kind of style Tosh has at least been trying to bring in. His media comments on Toshack and Wales I now find really dull and predictably negative in a very immature way. Funny how players who seemed completely whole hearted playing for us like Sav and Coleman have turned into such annoying pundits, whilst the likes of Speed and Blake, who were never really percieved by the fans to be giving their all, have made cracking Wales pundits imo.
|
|
|
|
Post by cilmeri on Aug 5, 2010 12:01:26 GMT
If we look at the euro 2004 campaign, I think Sav is good at what he does (ie run around, break up play, pass it simply) and it works well against Italy when you have a disciplined Pembo sitting in front of the back four, and then Davies, Bellamy, Giggs all flitting around, on form and with talent - ie therefore Sav complements the team. But when Pembo isn't available Sav didn't have the discipline to hold, and when others like Davies lost form or were injured Sav didn't have the talent to pick up the creative mantle.
I think the problem was we were trying to move him into other positions to cover for others, instead of letting him get on with being a pain and a pest.
I quite like his punditry anyway, says it like it is. Also mentions Wales a lot and the times he's played for us. Whether you rate him as a player or not or like him as a person I don't think there's doubting his passion for Wales.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2010 12:43:45 GMT
If we look at the euro 2004 campaign, I think Sav is good at what he does (ie run around, break up play, pass it simply) and it works well against Italy when you have a disciplined Pembo sitting in front of the back four, and then Davies, Bellamy, Giggs all flitting around, on form and with talent - ie therefore Sav complements the team. But when Pembo isn't available Sav didn't have the discipline to hold, and when others like Davies lost form or were injured Sav didn't have the talent to pick up the creative mantle. I think the problem was we were trying to move him into other positions to cover for others, instead of letting him get on with being a pain and a pest. I quite like his punditry anyway, says it like it is. Also mentions Wales a lot and the times he's played for us. Whether you rate him as a player or not or like him as a person I don't think there's doubting his passion for Wales. Spot on- he just wants the best for Wales and that really comes across which is what I like about him. Its a great observation that he worked well with Pembridge, which maybe covered up some of his weaknesses. But I maintain that (Emile Heskey aside ;D ) you dont stay in the prem for a decade under 3 different managers if you are crap. He was always bought and never sold, what does that tell you? I think people deal with Savage in isolation as god knows our esteemed current manager has said a lot of ill advised stuff during his time and has received far less grief for it than Savage. At the end of the day, if this was an England forum or whatever I could understand it but the guy played for Wales and always tried to do his best, does he really deserve not just criticism but total dislike from Welsh fans? |
|
|
|
Post by Tim P on Aug 5, 2010 16:07:50 GMT
clearly, he was a good player. i'm pretty sure that he has won player of the year at almost every club he's been at.
seriously, i'd say he was the equal of nicky butt. although take butt out of the utd side, and his career was shocking - sold/loaned out at all opportunities.
|
|
|
|
Post by idiot on Aug 5, 2010 20:23:03 GMT
i thought he was a better player than he got credit for,when he had his mind on the game he had decent passing and dead ball delivery ability
but too often he got himself into hot water and that ultimately is what he will be remembered for
he still had something to offer wales when the whole tosh vs sav saga started
|
|
|
|
Post by cardibach on Aug 5, 2010 23:14:29 GMT
Still think he could do a job for us. Yes, he's getting on a bit, but his experience would be a valuable asset. He's the captain of Derby and still playing regularly at Championship level. Same as Joe Allen, Crofts, Dorman, King, Stock, and last season Ledley and Vaughan. And way ahead of Mark Bradley and Owain Tudur-Jones, who both won caps last season.
I'd say exactly the same for Giggs as well, who's still playing at a standard far above any other Welshman.
Imagine the likes of Allen, Ramsey, Collison and Edwards being coached as they played alongside such experienced players. It'd never happen under Tosh, but I for one would like to see it. Even if they were invited to train with the youngsters, just to help them bring them along. It could only benefit Wales.
|
|
|
|
Post by cymroircarn on Aug 6, 2010 6:27:45 GMT
Savage is a character and entertaining in the media but I would not have him anywhere near a Welsh squad again!
|
|
|
|
Post by llannerch on Aug 6, 2010 11:52:50 GMT
Still think he could do a job for us. Yes, he's getting on a bit, but his experience would be a valuable asset. He's the captain of Derby and still playing regularly at Championship level. Same as Joe Allen, Crofts, Dorman, King, Stock, and last season Ledley and Vaughan. And way ahead of Mark Bradley and Owain Tudur-Jones, who both won caps last season. Maybe 2-3 years ago but not now. Any job he could do would need to be in a dire emergency, otherwise he is taking the place of a long-term option. He might have been playing regularly, but by his own admission he was crap under Jewell, and though he had a renaissance under Clough his performances tailed off. I'm not sure he is performing at the level you think he is |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 12:41:12 GMT
Still think he could do a job for us. Yes, he's getting on a bit, but his experience would be a valuable asset. He's the captain of Derby and still playing regularly at Championship level. Same as Joe Allen, Crofts, Dorman, King, Stock, and last season Ledley and Vaughan. And way ahead of Mark Bradley and Owain Tudur-Jones, who both won caps last season. Maybe 2-3 years ago but not now. Any job he could do would need to be in a dire emergency, otherwise he is taking the place of a long-term option. He might have been playing regularly, but by his own admission he was crap under Jewell, and though he had a renaissance under Clough his performances tailed off. I'm not sure he is performing at the level you think he is Yes it is pushing it quite a bit to suggest a recall now. Although I do have support what has already been said that he still had mileage in him when given the boot. To be fair to Tosh though I always thought Tosh was prejudiced against him however after reading Savages account it seems it wasnt what was said during the Hughes era that counted against him but Savages behaviour after Tosh had seemed to give him a clean slate. So Savage only has himself to blame in a lot of ways. |
|
|
|
Post by llannerch on Aug 6, 2010 13:15:06 GMT
Maybe 2-3 years ago but not now. Any job he could do would need to be in a dire emergency, otherwise he is taking the place of a long-term option. He might have been playing regularly, but by his own admission he was crap under Jewell, and though he had a renaissance under Clough his performances tailed off. I'm not sure he is performing at the level you think he is To be fair to Tosh though I always thought Tosh was prejudiced against him however after reading Savages account it seems it wasnt what was said during the Hughes era that counted against him but Savages behaviour after Tosh had seemed to give him a clean slate. So Savage only has himself to blame in a lot of ways. The whole 'Tosh falls out with all his players' cliche has always been largely a misnomer and a stick that the anti-Tosh brigade have used to hit him with. But it's largely spurious. Savage by his own admission behaved poorly and is regretful for it but the misnomer still has mileage...particularly in Montenegro where Danny Collins is so popular |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 14:11:44 GMT
To be fair to Tosh though I always thought Tosh was prejudiced against him however after reading Savages account it seems it wasnt what was said during the Hughes era that counted against him but Savages behaviour after Tosh had seemed to give him a clean slate. So Savage only has himself to blame in a lot of ways. The whole 'Tosh falls out with all his players' cliche has always been largely a misnomer and a stick that the anti-Tosh brigade have used to hit him with. But it's largely spurious. Savage by his own admission behaved poorly and is regretful for it but the misnomer still has mileage...particularly in Montenegro where Danny Collins is so popular I wouldnt totally let Tosh off the hook though, how many players have fallen out with him? It cant all have been the players fault. Going back to Savages autobiography he recounts how when he first met Tosh after Hughes left he asked Tosh to sign his Wales shirt, to which Tosh signed his name with a "No. 1" written after it. Savage asked what the number one referred to and Tosh replied that it stood for "One European cup". Savage told his old man who replied that Tosh had never won the bloody european cup! So I can quite imagine with that sort of attitude how he winds people up. |
|
|
|
Post by cymroircarn on Aug 6, 2010 15:05:50 GMT
The whole 'Tosh falls out with all his players' cliche has always been largely a misnomer and a stick that the anti-Tosh brigade have used to hit him with. But it's largely spurious. Savage by his own admission behaved poorly and is regretful for it but the misnomer still has mileage...particularly in Montenegro where Danny Collins is so popular I wouldnt totally let Tosh off the hook though, how many players have fallen out with him? It cant all have been the players fault. Going back to Savages autobiography he recounts how when he first met Tosh after Hughes left he asked Tosh to sign his Wales shirt, to which Tosh signed his name with a "No. 1" written after it. Savage asked what the number one referred to and Tosh replied that it stood for "One European cup". Savage told his old man who replied that Tosh had never won the bloody european cup! So I can quite imagine with that sort of attitude how he winds people up. Toshack HAS won the European Cup as a player en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Toshack#As_a_playerSo Savage's Dad is wrong! |
|
|
|
Post by idiot on Aug 6, 2010 22:36:08 GMT
he writes number 1 after his name when signing autograph's....jesus christ,cringeworthy stuff..thats up there with paul ince demanding to be called the governer and that prat seaman who signs things calling himself david 'safe hands' seaman i feel like breaking something now  |
|
|
|
Post by walrus on Aug 6, 2010 22:42:40 GMT
In the Swansea days Tosh quickly marked himself out as a manager who would send players to Coventry. Once he tired of a player's form, attitude , philosophy said player would quickly find himself in the away dressing room and on the transfer list. However Tosh is also pragmatic. If said player turned around to Tosh's liking he could make his way back, eg Tommy Craig. Tosh would always promote youth over an ageing star if they were good enough. Tosh was also innovative in tactics at that time but was brought down by the loss of Ray Kennedy to Parkinsons, Colin Irwin and Charlo amongst others to injury and ran out of money to replace them. The youngsters coming through were a year or two too young because of the rapid rise experienced by the swans meaning the youth poicy was not mature.
Since this is a Savage article, i knew before Tosh took over that Savage due to his poor technique, lack of a tactical brain and a big mouth would not be a Tosh favourite. That Tosh gave him a second chance after bananagate speaks volumes for Tosh's fairness and pragmatism.
What posters have largely missed on here is that Tosh has set about to change the culture of Welsh football from U17's to seniors. This is what he achieved at the Swans but was a victim of the success of the team being drawn back by the lack of infrastructure at the club. This seems to be repeating itself also and as Storm points out could be the undoing of Tosh (faw, technically poor english league players etc)
Savage was a decent enough charge around head hunter so typical of English football. He would be struggling to get a game in other parts of the world at the same level because of his so obviuosly glaring flaws.
Savage is a great Totem for the divide between olde englishe work rate and the modern international game.
That savage never understood the new mentality is not surprising. That he continued to gaffe after making a dickhead of himself showed poor judgement and an unchecked unbalanced overinflated ego. That he was then able to listen to his advisors and come out and admit his mistakes is laudable but any book editor would say that would be the way to go.
Savage was a guy who played his heart out for wales. So big tick there. He was rubbish though and was lucky to play in an era of workrate over brain. Post Wales he brought utter shame on his house and I for one will not listen to his views because he so clearly does not understand the mechanics of modern football.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 23:44:33 GMT
Hmm...I checked Toshs wiki article to confirm before I posted and this is what it says in the actual text description of his time at Liverpool: "During his time with Liverpool Toshack scored 96 goals; he was part of the team that won the Football League Championship in 1973, 1976 and 1977, the FA Cup in 1974, and the UEFA Cup in 1973 and 1976" No mention of the European Cup. Maybe Tosh needs to re-write the article himself ;D he writes number 1 after his name when signing autograph's....jesus christ,cringeworthy stuff..thats up there with paul ince demanding to be called the governer and that prat seaman who signs things calling himself david 'safe hands' seaman i feel like breaking something now I have to say I dont expect anything less, there are certain players such as the ones listed above who are a legend in their own minds and love to remind everybody of that fact. Is it any wonder that both Ince and Tosh have had problems managing players in recent years? Their management model is a total contrast to the likes of Flynns and look who is getting the better results. Speaking of Ince I heard of a couple of young Bristol Rovers supporters who approached Ince before a game and said "Incey can you sign an autograph", to which Ince snarled: "Thats Mr. Ince to you". Total c0ck. In the Swansea days Tosh quickly marked himself out as a manager who would send players to Coventry. Once he tired of a player's form, attitude , philosophy said player would quickly find himself in the away dressing room and on the transfer list. However Tosh is also pragmatic. If said player turned around to Tosh's liking he could make his way back, eg Tommy Craig. Tosh would always promote youth over an ageing star if they were good enough. Tosh was also innovative in tactics at that time but was brought down by the loss of Ray Kennedy to Parkinsons, Colin Irwin and Charlo amongst others to injury and ran out of money to replace them. The youngsters coming through were a year or two too young because of the rapid rise experienced by the swans meaning the youth poicy was not mature. Since this is a Savage article, i knew before Tosh took over that Savage due to his poor technique, lack of a tactical brain and a big mouth would not be a Tosh favourite. That Tosh gave him a second chance after bananagate speaks volumes for Tosh's fairness and pragmatism. Thats a pretty fair summation of Tosh, we wont see eye to eye on Savage but I should point out that it was because of 'Bananagate' that Savage was kicked out. Admittedly Tosh had given Savage a chance by calling him up for the Hungary friendly when Savage himelf expected he would be dropped because of the Hughes era and things that had been said. Tosh spoke to him beforehand and they agreed to a clean slate. At the evening meal Savage took exception to the fact that budget cuts by the FAW meant that previous facilities under Hughes were not available (physios, nutritionists etc) and the meal that was served up was very basic, dried chicken and fried bananas. So Savage did his usual clown act of searching under the table for where the real food had gone. Tosh needless to say was not amused (I cant even imagine the look on his face!) and told him that if his chicken was dry he should have used some bolognese sauce! According to Savage the other players such as Giggs and Hartson were as shocked as Savage at Toshs reaction and the food, however when Savage raised the issue with Tosh later nobody else backed him up and that was that, after the hungary game Savage was not called up again. So make of that what you will. |
|
|
|
Post by walrus on Aug 7, 2010 1:43:44 GMT
All i can say Storm is that i hope you didn't pay good money to read that book and that someone lent it to you.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2010 3:27:46 GMT
All i can say Storm is that i hope you didn't pay good money to read that book and that someone lent it to you. I just read the parts concerning wales in waterstones  Reading between the lines, there is not much to doubt about Savages account imo- his honesty makes himself look as much of a fool as anyone else. If it was written to airbrush the facts and make himself look better then it failed, as I say I actually had some sympathy for Tosh after reading it where I had none before. |
|
|
|
Post by walrus on Aug 10, 2010 9:02:29 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by idiot on Aug 10, 2010 10:10:34 GMT
thanks for the question while it doesnt actually mention welsh football in that story as an ex welsh international and part time pundit i imagine people ask him questions about welsh football and as a pundit he feels obliged to give answers to these questions thats probably why he comments on such matters here to help |
|
|
|
Post by flynnfan on Aug 10, 2010 13:39:17 GMT
Jesus walrus, did Savage rape your Nain or something? I know I've critisized him, but you seem to hate him like the rest of us hate Shawcross...
|
|
|
|
Post by walrus on Aug 11, 2010 10:36:06 GMT
It goes back to the Incident in the Bobby Gould days when savage was a leicester player. Ever since, i had his card marked and there's no going back.
|
|
|
|
Post by flynnfan on Aug 11, 2010 14:30:01 GMT
The Maldini shirt throwing incident? OK, it was pretty stupid, but do you not think Bobby Ghouls reaction to that was a bit OTT? Maybe a quiet word ('don't want to see you do anything like that in future Sav') might have been better?
|
|
|
|
Post by walrus on Aug 11, 2010 21:23:40 GMT
Senior players were livid. One player told me first hand. They thought Gould was a clown but supported him over his reaction to Savage.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2010 21:30:51 GMT
Senior players were livid. One player told me first hand. They thought Gould was a clown but supported him over his reaction. I think the senior players need something to occupy their time if they get their knickers in a twist over something as relatively trivial as that. Its hardly Ozzy Osbourne ****ing on the Alamo is it? |
|
|
|
Post by walrus on Aug 12, 2010 7:22:04 GMT
Judge them at your leisure, but that is the feeling expressed at the time. Respect and dignity should not be undermined by the ego and stupidity of post thatcherite football yuppees such as the grotesquely idiotic Savage.
Maybe this little bon mot gives an insight into the generation gap between Tosh Flynn and Saunders and the new footballing rich.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2010 8:18:42 GMT
Judge them at your leisure, but that is the feeling expressed at the time. Respect and dignity should not be undermined by the ego and stupidity of post thatcherite football yuppees such as the grotesquely idiotic Savage. Maybe this little bon mot gives an insight into the generation gap between Tosh Flynn and Saunders and the new footballing rich. So you have never done anything naive and ill advised while you were young? I'll bet you did worse than muck around with an Italian football shirt! I would say the same to those players as well- it's a pathetic thing to get so worked up about. He made a mistake, apologised and disciplinary action was taken. End of. |
|
|
|
Post by walrus on Aug 12, 2010 8:27:23 GMT
Well it wasn't end of though was it. If only it was. He clearly learned very little about dignity and respect from that episode that he would carry through to his senior years..
On the question of being young and foolish? Well this was international football, representing your country, a position most of us would only dream of.This wasn't showing your arse from the school bus. Besides that Maldini is a legend of world football and Savage made Wales look like a bunch of amateurs.
Being young and foolish is a weak defence in this case. Where are standards of behaviour gong if that is acceptable defence?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2010 9:09:23 GMT
Well it wasn't end of though was it. If only it was. He clearly learned very little about dignity and respect from that episode that he would carry through to his senior years.. On the question of being young and foolish? Well this was international football, representing your country, a position most of us would only dream of.This wasn't showing your arse from the school bus. Besides that Maldini is a legend of world football and Savage made Wales look like a bunch of amateurs. Being young and foolish is a weak defence in this case. Where are standards of behaviour gong if that is acceptable defence? Because being a footballer is about being in a goldfish bowl, it's an exceptional case. We know what the media are like, they are there to provoke and get this sort of reaction and they know who they can get it from- characters like savage. Why do you think alex ferguson never let's his players do interviews until they are emotionally mature enough to be allowed in front of the cameras? Its protect them from the situation that savage found himself in. It's a pity people like Gould didn't take a similarly responsible approach. Shouldn't the players be taking more responsibility for protecting savage knowing what he was like? Instead we have hartson revealing that the likes of Gary speed were goading hartson on to hit gould when gould invited hartson to have a fight with him, so don't tell me about senior players under Gould getting the hump, the whole thing was a circus! I have to say, if you dislike savage I would be very interested in your thoughts on bellamy!  |
|
|
|
Post by walrus on Aug 12, 2010 9:25:25 GMT
Storm. you made me think about my position regards Tosh's revolution v pragmatic football given the failings of the available talent. An interesting position. But the idea that Savage was somehow a victim of society........
|
|
