|
|
Post by marsvolta on Aug 25, 2010 20:27:48 GMT
with some posters on here saying we shouldnt go for non welsh born players and stick to 100% welshies,presuming the laws were changed tomorrow and toshack had to name a 23 man squad for montenegro with only welsh born and bred players,what 23 man squad would he pick?
someone have a go.
|
|
|
|
Post by marsvolta on Aug 25, 2010 20:28:45 GMT
p.s. this is tosh picking the squad so 'retired' players dont count.
|
|
|
|
Post by newaddingtonwelsh on Aug 25, 2010 20:35:49 GMT
Goalkeepers
W Hennessey
R Taylor
O F Williams
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2010 20:45:32 GMT
It would be a moot point for me as I would stop supporting Wales as under those rules I would not be considered Welsh
|
|
|
|
Post by marsvolta on Aug 25, 2010 20:47:57 GMT
hennessey,fon williams,gunter,morgan,bale,matthews,gabbidon,collins,ledley,ramsey,bellamy,cotterill,blake,eardley,ribiero,taylor,vaughan,evans,mcdonald,easter,tudur jones,gareth roberts,bradley.
not a bad squad,hopefully we wont have any withdrawals otherwise we definitely will be scraping the barrel.
i think it proves that we need the odd dual national.
yes,i know ramsey is injured but i was desperate
|
|
|
|
Post by saints19 on Aug 25, 2010 21:18:10 GMT
I don't think, as I said before, that anyone can argue there is not a difference between hard parentage and the British citizenship multi-qualification or foreigners who haven't played for their own countries.
|
|
|
|
Post by marsvolta on Aug 25, 2010 22:21:18 GMT
I don't think, as I said before, that anyone can argue there is not a difference between hard parentage and the British citizenship multi-qualification or foreigners who haven't played for their own countries. to be fair, its very rare that we use the british citizenship rule and i dont think we've ever had a arteta/almunia style foreigner play for us. also,as pitman is the one who started this discussion,is there any more credibility if he played for england? he's not english after all. le tissier and le saux didnt raise an eyelid when they got selected for england and im sure if pitman was good enough they would select him due to his british passport even though he is not english. also,there has never been any serious suggestion or possibility that arteta,almunia,etc will be approached to play for wales so i dont know why their names always get mentioned whenever we talk about non welsh born players. |
|
|
|
Post by bale-droed on Aug 25, 2010 23:29:30 GMT
lewis guy, gareth roberts michael flynn, jason price gavin williams would be out barrel scrappers
i knew cotterill and ribeirio were born in wales didnt think they were raised here tho.
|
|
|
|
Post by walrus on Aug 26, 2010 8:14:39 GMT
Interesting Comment from Storm. I would like to know from the non welsh born perspective what it would mean to play for wales.
|
|
|
|
Post by georgetm1 on Aug 26, 2010 10:20:47 GMT
A player could be from Mars, as long as he/it puts a 100% in when wearing a Wales shirt, I could'nt care less. They represent your country so it does'nt matter where they were born.
|
|
|
|
Post by texan on Aug 26, 2010 10:38:33 GMT
I think two we've used were Jeremy Goss and Eric 'Ninja' Young, from memory I don't think either of them had any connections with Wales other than a British passport.
Originally this was the official reason Earnie qualified for us as well, even though technically he shouldn't have as his late father turned out to be English!
Although I accept Earnie's situation is different on two counts. He had lived here for most of his life ensuring he had an emotional connection with Wales, and secondly, since 2009 he officially qualifies for us now anyway due to the schooling rule.
I always though Van Den Hauwe was a foreign acquisition as well, but someone told me he has a Welsh parent.
|
|
|
|
Post by cilmeri on Aug 26, 2010 10:40:13 GMT
to be fair, its very rare that we use the british citizenship rule and i dont think we've ever had a arteta/almunia style foreigner play for us. How did Van den Hauwe and Eric Young qualify? Also Goss had no welsh blood I don't think, but because he was born abroad when his dad was in the army he qualified for all 4 countries. (Not sure if this is the same as the rule you're referring to) |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2010 14:35:45 GMT
Interesting Comment from Storm. I would like to know from the non welsh born perspective what it would mean to play for wales. I qualify through my father and feel very strongly about the issue as all through school I has the **** taken out of me by my mates for "claiming" to be welsh when I was born in England. But you try going to a rugby/football match with your father when he goes in the Wales end and you go in the England end simply because of where you were born. Its ridiculous. For me it would be the defining moment of my life were I in a position to score a goal that would send Wales to a major finals. Thats why I think it is an emotive subject and not one where you can easily say "sod anyone born outside Wales, just pick ones born in wales" and I even find just the suggestion picking a team based on that criteria slightly offensive as it would basically rule me out from qualifying for Wales so then whats the point in supporting them? Surely supporting a national side means that in some way you would qualify for them? Well I wouldnt under a "Welsh born" policy. Although I do accept that not all footballers seem to be in touch with their family roots as much as I am and I am quite appalled by the lack of knowledge/interest displayed by some of them. |
|
|
|
Post by bale-droed on Aug 26, 2010 15:09:12 GMT
how did darren barnard qualify? i know he was born in germany.
i agree with storm. i know a a 55 year old woman who come to live by me from yorkshire when she was 18.
she considers herself welsh. been her long enough
|
|
|
|
Post by texan on Aug 26, 2010 15:30:53 GMT
Eligibility should be either:
- born here
- parent/grandparent born here
- born outside with no familial connections but schooled/brought up here
Any of those would ensure some emotive connection to the country, but I think outside of these three parameters we're starting to make a bit of a mockery of the entire point to international football.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2010 15:52:01 GMT
Eligibility should be either: - born here - parent/grandparent born here - born outside with no familial connections but schooled/brought up here Any of those would ensure some emotive connection to the country, but I think outside of these three parameters we're starting to make a bit of a mockery of the entire point to international football. Whilst in principle that seems sound enough in practice it does not work so well as there are always examples that can make the case for exception. Like the case ljd mentioned. So the woman moves to Wales from just after school leavers age, say she has a kid in her 20s, then the kid is welsh and she isnt? Its a very tricky subject and can only really be truly defined by the how the person feels inside and whether they feel they have any affinity to Wales. Sadly that doesnt help much when trying to lay down criteria for international football qualification. Hence why Fifa have left the rules as loose as possible, so people dont feel ostracised from adopted countries maybe. The fact it leaves it open to abuse is a necessary evil. |
|
|
|
Post by texan on Aug 26, 2010 16:30:06 GMT
Course not, if she considers herself Welsh all well and good, she's Welsh, but I don't think that story has anything to do with eligibility. Ljd also said she felt Welsh as she'd 'been here long enough', but she's hardly going to turn out for us in a qualifier is she. We're specifically talking about males between 16 - 30.
I totally agree with what you say about Welshness, it's very difficult to label it and pigeonhole it. But we're not trying to quantify what it means to be Welsh, only to ascertain how someone can / should qualify to play football for Wales.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2010 16:36:35 GMT
Course not, if she considers herself Welsh all well and good, she's Welsh, but I don't think that story has anything to do with eligibility. Ljd also said she felt Welsh as she'd 'been here long enough', but she's hardly going to turn out for us in a qualifier is she. We're specifically talking about males between 16 - 30. I totally agree with what you say about Welshness, it's very difficult to label it and pigeonhole it. But we're not trying to quantify what it means to be Welsh, only to ascertain how someone can / should qualify to play football for Wales. Well I wasnt being literal, just giving an example framework that could really apply to anyone. A footballer moves down here to play for Cardiff say at 18, 7 years later feels welsh, wants to play for Wales yet I dont think would necessarily qualify would they? |
|
|
|
Post by marsvolta on Aug 26, 2010 22:46:51 GMT
how did darren barnard qualify? i know he was born in germany. i agree with storm. i know a a 55 year old woman who come to live by me from yorkshire when she was 18. she considers herself welsh. been her long enough fair play to darren barnard,always gave 100% and never looked out of his depth even tho he spent most of his career in the lower divisions, hard to believe that he was playing for grimsby when he played in the play off defeat against russia and even got released at the end of that season and ended up playing non league for aldershot. euro 2004 play off to non-league in a matter of months. i seem to remember he even played for the welsh non-league team,what an example of a dedicated non-welshman. |
|
|
|
Post by llannerch on Aug 27, 2010 11:28:47 GMT
Course not, if she considers herself Welsh all well and good, she's Welsh, but I don't think that story has anything to do with eligibility. Ljd also said she felt Welsh as she'd 'been here long enough', but she's hardly going to turn out for us in a qualifier is she. We're specifically talking about males between 16 - 30. I totally agree with what you say about Welshness, it's very difficult to label it and pigeonhole it. But we're not trying to quantify what it means to be Welsh, only to ascertain how someone can / should qualify to play football for Wales. Well I wasnt being literal, just giving an example framework that could really apply to anyone. A footballer moves down here to play for Cardiff say at 18, 7 years later feels welsh, wants to play for Wales yet I dont think would necessarily qualify would they? No and rightfully so. He isn't Welsh. End of. Do you think his 'feelings' should allow him to be eligible? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2010 13:02:03 GMT
Well I wasnt being literal, just giving an example framework that could really apply to anyone. A footballer moves down here to play for Cardiff say at 18, 7 years later feels welsh, wants to play for Wales yet I dont think would necessarily qualify would they? No and rightfully so. He isn't Welsh. End of. Do you think his 'feelings' should allow him to be eligible? I think thats a very black and white way of looking at things personally. So in your thinking somebody who has lived in Wales for X number of years would be less Welsh than someone who was driven over the border and just happened to be born in Wales because all the local hospitals in England were full? Yet because they were born inside the boundary they are welsh and the other person isnt? Or they were born there and lived there 5 years and moved away before they were too young to know any better? I find that pretty ridiculous in all honesty. You cannot apply black and white thinking to this subject. |
|
|
|
Post by texan on Aug 27, 2010 15:12:41 GMT
I think you must apply an element of black and white to the eligibility rule. If you don't where will it all end? They're already suggesting a Spaniard who's never set foot here and probably thinks we're a North Sea mammal should turn out for us.
To turn it on its head, let's say this lad in his mid-20's now applies to play for Wales because he 'feels Welsh', simple question - prove it!
What would stop any player on the planet jumping ship and pleading to play for another national team because they 'feel they belong there'. I'm sure a Sheik would think a quick £100m to a few Brazilian youngsters would make them 'feel' they belong in the UAE or Quatar as well - they're already trying it now!
More and more will abuse the already flimsy system, and it will come to a point where international football is one huge farce and a glorified version of the club game. None of us want to see that happen.
Obviously a situation like Dorman needed to be rectified however, not a drop of Welsh blood but brought up in North Wales and considered himself Welsh, I wholeheartedly agree with the schooling rule, as I do the familial connection.
I know of a number of people who weren't born Welsh with no family ties but now consider themselves to be just that, some are members of my own family. It's very easy to tread people's toes on this subject because as you've already said, its an incredibly complex and emotive subject, who would I be to say my 80 year old Grandmother wasn't Welsh because she was born in Minnesota and only emigrated here when she was 16? But there we're talking about men and women of all ages, eligibility is, as I've said, about lads in their teens, 20's and early 30's. I think the current rules we have really do catch all permutations.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2010 15:42:58 GMT
I think you must apply an element of black and white to the eligibility rule. If you don't where will it all end? They're already suggesting a Spaniard who's never set foot here and probably thinks we're a North Sea mammal should turn out for us. To turn it on its head, let's say this lad in his mid-20's now applies to play for Wales because he 'feels Welsh', simple question - prove it! What would stop any player on the planet jumping ship and pleading to play for another national team because they 'feel they belong there'. I'm sure a Sheik would think a quick £100m to a few Brazilian youngsters would make them 'feel' they belong in the UAE or Quatar as well - they're already trying it now! More and more will abuse the already flimsy system, and it will come to a point where international football is one huge farce and a glorified version of the club game. None of us want to see that happen. Obviously a situation like Dorman needed to be rectified however, not a drop of Welsh blood but brought up in North Wales and considered himself Welsh, I wholeheartedly agree with the schooling rule, as I do the familial connection. I know of a number of people who weren't born Welsh with no family ties but now consider themselves to be just that, some are members of my own family. It's very easy to tread people's toes on this subject because as you've already said, its an incredibly complex and emotive subject, who would I be to say my 80 year old Grandmother wasn't Welsh because she was born in Minnesota and only emigrated here when she was 16? But there we're talking about men and women of all ages, eligibility is, as I've said, about lads in their teens, 20's and early 30's. I think the current rules we have really do catch all permutations. Each case has to be judged on its own merits. I know that doesnt work in footballing terms because it can be abused- as you say with the money being poured into it by the likes of the UAE to naturalise Brazilians. I just object to Llanerch telling people what they are and what they arent. If you live in a country and you make a long term contribution to their society then you should damn well be able to consider yourself a native of that country. As has been said though, that obviously does not work in footballing terms. Rugby uses a form of naturalisation and it doesnt seem to be half as controversial as the football equivalent. |
|
|
|
Post by bale-droed on Aug 27, 2010 18:23:04 GMT
with regards to the rugby comments.
for all people who dont follow rugby. josh lewsey is an englands winger , mother, father grandparents all welsh and he was born in wales. but he lived in england since he was 3 so considered himself english. no problem what so ever about him playing for england. and there are plenty more examples of that!
so with that in mind it was stupid andy dorman has to wait until 28 to get his first wales cap.
the schooling rule should be more of a help and not a"stupid rule" in alot of cases.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tim P on Aug 27, 2010 18:45:03 GMT
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Lewseyborn in englnd and lived there his whole life. mother is Welsh. father is 'half Welsh' - whatever that means. although the fact his son played for england speaks volumes.
|
|
|
|
Post by bale-droed on Aug 27, 2010 19:21:39 GMT
i can assure u as usual wiki is wrong on that. nevermind though lets not get into a josh lewsey debate. its still a valid point
|
|
|
|
Post by bale-droed on Aug 27, 2010 19:27:13 GMT
i knew wales could lose mccardle due to the schooling rule.
i didnt realise till just now though but we could now lose rhys taylor if he became any good, he was schooled in surrey.
|
|
|
|
Post by walrus on Aug 27, 2010 22:24:51 GMT
Nice debate lads.
What rankles with me is when England do a chelsea and stockpile the talent. England could pick 20 teams that would be of at least pot 4 standard. We struggle to pick one.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2010 0:51:28 GMT
Nice debate lads. What rankles with me is when England do a chelsea and stockpile the talent. England could pick 20 teams that would be of at least pot 4 standard. We struggle to pick one. Isnt it fair to say they only capped Le Tissier to stop him turning out for the rest of the home nations? Not that he would have played for us but I seem to recall them never being very keen on him and only giving him a token cap. |
|
|
|
Post by bale-droed on Aug 28, 2010 23:01:36 GMT
well le tissier had 8 caps.
another we could lose due to schooling is ribeiro. because he isnt capped competitivley yet.
not going to happen though but could.
i never realised how many welsh player were schooled in england. a few to add to the ones with welsh grannies
|
|
