Plan B

[flynnfan]

After the game with Sweden Toshack was asked what he'd learned. His reply was 'we need Aaron Ramsey back as soon as possible'. I can't tell you how disappointed I was to hear that (and lets face it, we've all had plenty of time to get used to being disappointed by things Tosh has come out with) because we're going to have to play at least 3 Euro qualifier without him. So does that mean he doesn't think we're capable of doing anything without Rambo? And I wonder how the players who did play felt at hearing that comment? (especially Gareth Bale, who was excellent, but recieved zero praise from his manager)

Plan A now seems to be 4-4-2 with a holding midfielder and Rambo at the tip of a midfield diamond. No problem with that- it worked great against Scotland. But the thing is, we simply don't have another player like Rambo. Against the Swedes he put Collison in at the tip of the diamond, which I felt was completely unfair to Collison because despite his many qualities, he's not the same kind of player.

In that recent article Big Nev talked about the need for a plan B. I reckon playing for 4-3-2-1, using 2 wide men should be the way to go in the first few games. If we don't have any further injuries, then I'd like to see a team something like this:

Hennessey
Ricketts Collins Williams Gunter
Davies Allen Ledley
Bellamy Bale
Vokes

I know Bellamy has been playing on the left for City, but he's very capable of playing on the right too (see the victory over Italy) Maybe Edwards could play Bellamy or Davies' postition, Ched or Steve Morison could play up front... It wouldn't necessarily need all these exact players to be fit for this system to work. We have several good options in wide positions- lets play to our strengths. I suppose this system is a similar to the way Swansea play and before people start complaining about them being boring, what I would say is that I don't mind us being boring if we get results (and the Swans don't lose many) and that the quality of our wide players is much greater than the quality of Swansea's.

Anyone else have any ideas about how the team should be set up without Ramsey and Collison?

[Tim P]

seriously, how many teams have a plan b though? i'm not being flippant, i just cant think of any teams, international or otherwise, that do.

for me, a plan b is something to consider once you have fully embedded plan a with the players. my Idea, and i suspect this is what flynn would do, would be to get the team set up a certain way and stick with it. when injuries happen, we should be able to cope well enough as the reserve players should be drilled well enough to occupy the allocated positions.

i also suspect that flynn's Idea for away games would be to play with the same system but ask for a bit of defensive discipline from the wide attacking players.

[flynnfan]

But surely the problem with just sticking with the same system for every game is that our most important player is injured? Trendy- if we just stick with the midfield diamond, who plays the Rambo role? Allen? Edwards? I'm really rate those players, but I'm not sure it's fair on them to say 'Do what Rambo does'

Whats with the karma thing btw? how does that work?

[Tim P]

no idea what the karma thing is - although it's just struck me that it's something to do with other memebrs rating people's comments or something. anyone else have any ideas?

re ramsey; i'd rather keep the same system and ask someone else to try and do a job rather than switch it all around and risk several players not doing as well.

[Tim P]

just looked the karma thing up, got rid of it as it seems uneccessarily confrontational - i think there will be enough beef once the quals come round again.

[flynnfan]

I know these kinds of posts are fairly pointless, given that we don't know who will be fit (plus, it's not like Toshack visits this board and take notes) but anyways...

Lets just say for the sake of argument that everyone who was fit at the end of the season is in the same kind of form come early September. Who would you pick to play in that same system against Montenegro?

[Deleted]

Useful and relevant discussion.

I would put Bale into a more central role - he is our best player in Ramsay's absence. I seem to remember him playing more centrally in the second half away to Russia in the 2-1 loss when we looked very good for a while and he is older, wiser and stronger now.

[saints19]

Bale played centrally? That would be....interesting. His best attribute is his dribbling and ability to beat a man, and most teams these days are so well organised in the centre that he'd get much more joy out wide.

I guess I'd have to go for someone like Stock in the centre, alongside two of Ledley, Edwards, or Collison. He plays at a much lower level than Bale, but at least it's his natural position.

[Deleted]

It would be...........interesting. Bale is technically excellent. He has good vision and passing ability and can cause havoc by running at the defence from the middle. You want your best players on the ball as much as possible don't you?

[flynnfan]

Collison won't be fit for our games in the Autumn. He could actually be out longer than Ramsey.

Trendy- what would your team be? (4-4-2- midfield diamond, no Ramsey or Collison)

[saints19]

If a 4-4-2 diamond (and yes I know I'm not Trendy, but if you ask a question and make it exlcusive, that's just being mean):

Hennessey

Collins
Williams
Bale
Gunter

Stock
Davies
Ledley
Edwards

Bellamy
one of Vokes/Evans/Earnshaw/Eastwood or Morrison

However, I'd play 4-5-1:

Hennessey

Collins
Williams
Bale
Gunter

Stock
Edwards
Ledley
Bellamy
Davies

A. Striker (see above)

[flynnfan]

Woah! 75 posts has moved me up to sparky! (I'd suggest that's a big leap from savage trendy, but I'm happy to be here anyway! btw- bit disappointed 69 didn't move me up to Mickey Thomas status)

Sorry saints19- that question can be answered by everyone of course. I was just particularly interested in what Trendy thinks because he was the one saying we shouldn't change the system at all, no matter who is missing. Whereas I think the midfield diamond was developed simply to get the best out of Rambo, and we should change the system to better suit our best available players with Rambo missing.

You're 4-5-1 team looks a better one than the 4-4-2 one to me.

[Tim P]

haha, yeah i think i have misjudged the 'rating system' somewhat. prepare to be downgraded to john oster!

[flynnfan]

No!!!! not Oster, anyone but Oster!!!

[saints19]

Savage to Oster isn't right. Maybe the next level should be something like Andy Melville.

Sav shouldn't be the second level either. He's better than that. Also I suggest it should take more posts than at present to gain a rank, because at this rate we're all going to be Ryan Giggs by the time the qualifiers roll round.

Here's my proposal:

Steve Evans (0-50 posts) - Carl Fletcher/Carl Robinson (50-250) - Andy Melville (250-500) - Robbie Savage (500-1000) - Craig Bellamy (1000-2500) - Neville Southall (2500-5000) - Mark Hughes (5000-10000) - Ryan Giggs (10000+)

All in favour, say, 'supercalifragilisticexpialidocious'. Or whatever.

[Tim P]

ryan giggs at the top? 'controversial'

yeah, there will deffo be bigger gaps.

[saints19]

You could put John Charles for the real legends of Apostle boards. Say for like 20000 posts (I'll get there someday, no doubt). But I went for Giggs as the highest because his name is the most immediately recognisable, even if his Wales career wasn't as great as some others.

[flynnfan]

in terms of Wales performances I'd say the order should be: Evans, the Carls, Savage, Melville, Hughes, Giggs, Bellamy, Southall (you seem to be going on club success trendy, which to me is a very different thing)

Anyway, what would be your team to face Montenegro?!

[Tim P]

this is clearly going to run and run, but i initially just did it off the top of my head. yep, charles was/is top - 1000 posts.

well, this is my team - with players in brackets taking collisson and ramsey's places.

gk hennessey (or myhill is hennessey isnt playing)

rb gunter
lb ricketts

cb collins
cb blake

qb stock
cm collison (williams - giving stock a bit more freedom)

amr edwards
aml bale

amc ramsey (ledley)

cf bellamy

if ramsey was fit, i'd leave it up to ledley to battle his way in to the side.

of course, a month into the season, and the likes of blake, allen, matthews could all be on top form - which would mix up the selection a bit.

its very tough to say at the moment. playing williams instead of collison does change the dynamic of the side - but the system remains the same.

also, i wouldnt expect ledley to do the same job as ramsey - no one could. but i would want him getting in the box and providing plenty of industry.

[Deleted]

What about Bale, Trendy?

[Tim P]

ah, yeah - i wrote him in at leftback, then i thought, probably for the first time, that he should go in midfield. obviously forgot. will edit my team accordingly.