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Post by flynnfan on Jul 13, 2010 20:07:22 GMT
www.walesonline.co.uk/footballnation/football-in-wales/2010/07/12/10-point-plan-to-end-wales-52-years-of-hurt-91466-26831841/Some good stuff here, but the thing about getting Giggs in as a coach is hilarious. To my amazement, he actually lays the blame at Giggs door for the way so many Welsh players don't turn up for friendlies these days (quite right too), but then a few sentences later says he should get involved in the coaching in order to take over as next manager!! Ridiculous. I would also add: 11- Play all competitive home games at night- Spain 85, Germany 91, Italy 02- All night games. Its not a coincidence. The atmosphere is better at night and the crowd comes into it a lot more. 12- Get competitive games back to the Racecourse asap- We have great support and a great record in North Wales. 13- Get games back on BBC Wales- the trailers are like free adverts, more people will attend as a result. Games on terrestrial TV helps create more of a fervour. Or, at the very least the FAW could explain what the POINT of the extra sky money is. If they can explain where it goes and why it's needed then I might be more understanding. 14- Better media covergage in general- And that includes you Abbondonato! If there's a lack of belief (or realisation) in Wales as to how good some of our players are, the maybe the media has to take some blame? At the very least, all our competitive home U21 games should be LIVE on S4C. Our youngsters outplayed Italy last year- Italian TV audiences saw it. ... they know how good Rambo is now. Does the Welsh public?
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Post by saints19 on Jul 13, 2010 20:28:56 GMT
I read that. Some of Abbandonato's points are a bit laughable. For example, Collison is seriously over-rated by PA. I personally doubt whether anyone would give any body part to have him in their team. No disrespect to the lad, he's a good player, and a good prospect, but not yet outstanding. Ramsey is potentially very special, but needs a full season at Arsenal first.
He also lists Hennessey and Collins, who, like Collison, whilst they are good, would find their equals in many European national teams.
Bellamy and Bale - perhaps. Bale is special, and Bellamy is very good and a consistent threat. However, Abbandonato suggests South korea, Denmark, Slovenia, Slovakia, Switzerland, Serbia and Japan would be dying to have these two. Equally, we'd kill for a player like Park in our midfield, or Frei up front. In my view, Abbandonato is wrong to single out players that way and ignore the evidence to the contrary. After all, these teams would hardly be excited to have Simon Church up front.
Also, Giggs as coach - might boost the media side of things but he just doesn't really inspire me. Could be wrong, but it just insticntively seems not quite right.
In fairness, one point I do agree with him on is giving one of strikers full backing and start him in the first three games. For me, that's Vokes at the moment.
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Post by flynnfan on Jul 13, 2010 20:45:22 GMT
Yep. Vokes for me too, especially after causing Montenegro so many problems last year. Its no good Tosh picking him and then going on about his lack of game time, goals etc though. He's got to emphasise his attributes ( of which there are many ) and send the lad out there full of as much confidence as possible.
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Post by walrus on Jul 15, 2010 4:55:53 GMT
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Post by cilmeri on Jul 15, 2010 8:36:20 GMT
Walrus - not sure if anyone else in any other UK paper writes articles like Jonathan Wilson. It's all good stuff, and if you like it I can recommend his book "Inverting the pyramid".
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Post by cilmeri on Jul 15, 2010 9:16:38 GMT
And having finally read the article, surely the point for us is not whether we play 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 or 5 at the back, but what players we have to play which system. We have no forwards really (Bellamy better deep-lying I think), so we need 1 up front max, swamp the midfield and pray.
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Post by llannerch on Jul 15, 2010 12:05:37 GMT
There's a post on the blog under Wilson's article praising Spain's change from 4-2-3-1 to 3-4-3 to 4-3-3 and so on against Germany. This misses the point....Spain were not choosing to change the formation for tactical reasons, but their movement was so good and they change the 'pressure point' so often as they press the opposition, that it has the effect of distorting the formation.
Besides formation is old hat...movement has always been the more important factor
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Post by flynnfan on Jul 15, 2010 13:32:52 GMT
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Post by walrus on Jul 16, 2010 1:34:59 GMT
Exactly Llanerch and Flynnfan. That Bananaman article was drivel. It confounds me that anyone who is paid to watch and write football is too lazy to read up on books like Inverting the pyramid or, and this is more sinister, have read them but write LCD patronising bollocks to shift readers over from the sun and star. End of Rant!
But of course the whole formation thing is just a point of reference now. Yes you need a basic structure;one that suits the players but beyond that it is about how that system is deployed. Do we press high, medium or low. Do we attack down one flank and defend the other. Do we have very quick players up front? are our centre backs shaky? Does our keeper sweep. Do we play it long and counter attack or do we keep possesion and deny the ball to the opposition in a defensive ploy so effectively used by the swans under sousa. The debate has moved on but the media seem unwilling or unable to understand this or do not trust the public to be able to engage in such discussion. The welsh footballing public needs educating not patronising rubbish which appeals to our base emotion.
So as a starting point if Tosh does use the 4231 how would it look? Like Spain , Germany? Uruguay, Australia? Japan? Where does Bale play? At left back with spurs he is very shaky in defence so perhaps he is better deployed wide left. Can Joe Ledley play left back?
Is this our best team in a 4231
Henessey
Gunther Williams Collins Nyatanga
Collison Allen
Bellamy Ramsey Bale
Evans
The deployment being a back four that rarely gets forward past the wide midfielders only giving support from behind and Collison or Allen supporting Ramsey in attack while the other stays back. Meanwhile Bellamy and Bale are looking to make diagonal runs in between full back and centre back on to Ramseys passes whilst Evans provides a fulcrum up front with a bit of poaching. Wales should look to keep possesion and mix it up with the occasional counter. However without the squad being fit or playing friendlies this will be hard to achieve.
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Post by walrus on Jul 16, 2010 1:43:40 GMT
Oh and Allen in place of Ledley as he is a much better player in keeping the ball in that holding role.
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Post by Tim P on Jul 16, 2010 8:57:12 GMT
you'd play Gunther at rightback? he's an excellent coffee maker, but his obsession with rachael green may see him lose concentration at the vital moment.
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Post by walrus on Jul 16, 2010 9:06:11 GMT
That's probably funny but please excuse me as i don't get the reference.
In that formation who would you play as your 1st 11 and why?
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Post by squatter1 on Jul 16, 2010 10:08:01 GMT
I'm liking your team there Walrus. Especially the Bale/Ramsey/Bellamy lineup which is exactly what I think we should be doing.
I'd be happy to see Allen there if he was playing regularly in that position for Swans. Otherwise should be Ledley.
I cant understand why you'd not play Ricketts rather than Nyatanga, given his Prem experience.
Evans, again, would have to be playing regularly and well for Utd to get the place. On last season's form, I'd say Church is first to that spot, followed by Vokes. If all Evans/Vokes/Church were playing well and regularly next season, I'd go for Vokes to make sure the ball sticks up front to bring in our real dangermen behind him: Bale/Ramsey/Bellamy.
Thing is, we're just fantasising right? Tosh isnt gonna change now, we'll be playing three centre backs wont we?
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Post by Tim P on Jul 16, 2010 11:40:06 GMT
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Post by llannerch on Jul 16, 2010 11:58:30 GMT
That's probably funny but please excuse me as i don't get the reference. In that formation who would you play as your 1st 11 and why? I've just chuckled out loud at that in the office....the joke's on you walrus ;D |
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Post by llannerch on Jul 16, 2010 12:05:06 GMT
Where does Bale play? At left back with spurs he is very shaky in defence so perhaps he is better deployed wide left. Can Joe Ledley play left back? Ledley needs to start for Wales because he has the energy and fitness to allow him to cover gaps. In so doing he doesn't have a position per se, thus: If Bale is at lb but with licence to bomb forward then Ledley can drop into lb. When the opponents are attacking down their right Ledley can come and help Bale and be an orthodox right mid When we're attacking down the right and looking to advance Bale, Ledley can drop to hold allowing Ramsey or whoever to push forward. See, it's about movement and game awareness, not formation. Ledley has both I reckon and hopefully it will improve following his move (though I don't think it will, but that's for another thread  |
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Post by flynnfan on Jul 16, 2010 14:38:14 GMT
I haven't read 'inverting the pyramid' but I have just re-read 'football against the enemy' by Simon Kuper . Absolutely brilliant book- anyone else read it? Anyway, in it there's an interview with Helenio Herrera, the man generaly condidered to have invented catennacio- the sweeper system with the fifth defender behind the defence (not to be confused with the Baresi/Beckkenbaur style libero playing in front of the defence) In the interview, Herrera claims to have invented the position of sweeper himself when playing in France in the mid 40s.
Despite being considered a master tactician, and the main purveyor of cattenacio he then goes on to say: 'The secret is putting players in the right place, because if you put Pele in the wrong place he is only 30%'
That's pretty much how I feel about formations, but then Hererra's views carry a lot more weight than mine! (2 European cups in a row with Inter in the mid 60s)
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Post by walrus on Jul 17, 2010 6:06:56 GMT
Llanerch said "Ledley needs to start for Wales because he has the energy and fitness to allow him to cover gaps. In so doing he doesn't have a position per se,....."
Thats how it appears to me whenever i see wales play. Ledley the superdomestique for Bale. It would be better if Ledley could command a position of his own but is let down by his inability to control the tempo in midfield.
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