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Post by fireboy0610 on Feb 25, 2024 20:03:17 GMT
Joey has had limited gametime this and last season, he made a decision to retire from international football because he felt he couldn't do himself justice but I get the rationale on why he should be called up for this game and possibly the final, he has had a few games back since his latest injury and yesterday he was outstanding, he was everywhere, he was the best player on the park, he went off after 60 mins after running his blood ti water, imo he could do a job for us in the middle of the park for a short period but I seriously doubt that page will pick him.
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Post by jimexotic on Feb 26, 2024 0:22:48 GMT
Ah, so you can't answer the question. I thought you might struggle... Sorry mate but I think the only person struggling with this one is you, Allen isn't coming back, it's over. He retired a year ago, he's had injuries since then and a few good games probably isn't going to change anything in his or Page's mind, he knows his body better than you and I. The idea that this is down to Page's ego is absolutely bonkers and carries no foundation. For the record, I answered your question with the answer it deserved.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 9:23:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 9:23:56 GMT
OK. I understand. You don't want Cymru to have the strongest possible squad going into the playoffs. That's pretty clear.
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Post by marsvolta on Feb 26, 2024 10:34:11 GMT
OK. I understand. You don't want Cymru to have the strongest possible squad going into the playoffs. That's pretty clear. Yes I think that’s what it is, pride and egos and not wanting the strongest possible squad,or something.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 10:42:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 26, 2024 10:42:42 GMT
Ah, so you can't answer the question. I thought you might struggle... As far as I'm aware the best alternative to Allen would be Matt Smith, but as well as he might be doing in the SPL he's not remotely at Allen's level. Let's say we're 1 nil down to Poland with half an hour to go. It would make sense at that point to go to 4 at the back and bring on another attacker, say Dan James. To facilitate that I would drop Ampadu back into the back 4 alongside Rodon, take Mepham and either Davies or Roberts off, and bring on Allen to play alongside Jordan James. Sheehan would be far too big a risk at such a pivotal moment. These are the sort of permutations you are ruling out if you say Page shouldn't make the phone call to Allen. Allen might be reluctant to make himself available as it might seem an egotistical thing to do at this late juncture. Page, acting without ego, could make that call. It's a simple choice, and the decision should be based on what's in the best national interest, not what some people think about the decision. It's not an egotistical decision not to call up Allen, that's a silly thing to say. Allen retired himself and if he thinks he has something to offer then he needs to unretire himself - which I don't think he will do for reasons listed above Maybe Allen is the best option, but maybe he isn't. Charlie Savage delivered a good performance against Gibraltar. Eli King had a good half season in League Two and now playing in the SPL. Ryan Howley has also been playing in the SPL. Given the success of Jordan James when we gave him an opportunity, I think it's far more likely one of these lads gets the call than Allen In all likelihood, Ampadu-JJ will be the only midfielders who get on the pitch in these games, barring an injury or suspension they will both play the 90. I trust Sheehan to come on if we need him as he has 237 league appearances in L1 & L2. After Sheehan we would struggle but I don't think it will come to that. If it does playing a crocked Allen is as risky as playing Eli King in my opinion
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 10:44:34 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 10:44:34 GMT
It's really very simple.
Is Allen the best option (assuming he stays fit) to replace the injured Morrell in the squad? No question.
Would Allen agree to a request to rejoin the national team for the playoffs? Impossible to say for sure, but I would bet that he would agree, given that both games are just down the road and that his game time would probably be limited.
Given the above why wouldn't Page ask Allen the question? The only reason for not doing so is a concern on Page's part that he may be perceived in some quarters as being weak for "begging" Allen to come back. If he were to put such irrelevant considerations to one side then there would be no obstacle to him doing the best thing for Cymru's prospects of qualifying - to ask for his return. My guess is that Page will baulk at the idea because of his ego, but I very much hope that I will be proved wrong on that front.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 10:50:34 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 10:50:34 GMT
Ah, so you can't answer the question. I thought you might struggle... As far as I'm aware the best alternative to Allen would be Matt Smith, but as well as he might be doing in the SPL he's not remotely at Allen's level. Let's say we're 1 nil down to Poland with half an hour to go. It would make sense at that point to go to 4 at the back and bring on another attacker, say Dan James. To facilitate that I would drop Ampadu back into the back 4 alongside Rodon, take Mepham and either Davies or Roberts off, and bring on Allen to play alongside Jordan James. Sheehan would be far too big a risk at such a pivotal moment. These are the sort of permutations you are ruling out if you say Page shouldn't make the phone call to Allen. Allen might be reluctant to make himself available as it might seem an egotistical thing to do at this late juncture. Page, acting without ego, could make that call. It's a simple choice, and the decision should be based on what's in the best national interest, not what some people think about the decision. It's not an egotistical decision not to call up Allen, that's a silly thing to say. Allen retired himself and if he thinks he has something to offer then he needs to unretire himself - which I don't think he will do for reasons listed above Maybe Allen is the best option, but maybe he isn't. Charlie Savage delivered a good performance against Gibraltar. Eli King had a good half season in League Two and now playing in the SPL. Ryan Howley has also been playing in the SPL. Given the success of Jordan James when we gave him an opportunity, I think it's far more likely one of these lads gets the call than Allen In all likelihood, Ampadu-JJ will be the only midfielders who get on the pitch in these games, barring an injury or suspension they will both play the 90. I trust Sheehan to come on if we need him as he has 237 league appearances in L1 & L2. After Sheehan we would struggle but I don't think it will come to that. If it does playing a crocked Allen is as risky as playing Eli King in my opinion You really think that any of the options you mentioned are close to what a fit Joe Allen can offer (the idea that I'm suggesting we select a crocked Joe Allen is a straw man argument)? Even Sheehan, decent player that he is, has only performed at League One level, and has next to no international experience. A fit Joe Allen, with his pedigree and international experience is a no-brainer when we're talking about the relative merits of the options we have.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 26, 2024 10:50:53 GMT
It's really very simple. Is Allen the best option (assuming he stays fit) to replace the injured Morrell in the squad? No question. Would Allen agree to a request to rejoin the national team for the playoffs? Impossible to say for sure, but I would bet that he would agree, given that both games are just down the road and that his game time would probably be limited. Given the above why wouldn't Page ask Allen the question? The only reason for not doing so is a concern on Page's part that he may be perceived in some quarters as being weak for "begging" Allen to come back. If he were to put such irrelevant considerations to one side then there would be no obstacle to him doing the best thing for Cymru's prospects of qualifying - to ask for his return. My guess is that Page will baulk at the idea because of his ego, but I very much hope that I will be proved wrong on that front. You're saying: IF this things happens AND IF this thing also happens then the only thing stopping it will be Page's ego - those are very two big hypothetical leaps to make a judgment from mate! To answer your questions, is Allen the best option? Unknown Would Allen say yes? Probably not Therefore even mentioning Page's ego is silly!
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 26, 2024 10:59:01 GMT
It's not an egotistical decision not to call up Allen, that's a silly thing to say. Allen retired himself and if he thinks he has something to offer then he needs to unretire himself - which I don't think he will do for reasons listed above Maybe Allen is the best option, but maybe he isn't. Charlie Savage delivered a good performance against Gibraltar. Eli King had a good half season in League Two and now playing in the SPL. Ryan Howley has also been playing in the SPL. Given the success of Jordan James when we gave him an opportunity, I think it's far more likely one of these lads gets the call than Allen In all likelihood, Ampadu-JJ will be the only midfielders who get on the pitch in these games, barring an injury or suspension they will both play the 90. I trust Sheehan to come on if we need him as he has 237 league appearances in L1 & L2. After Sheehan we would struggle but I don't think it will come to that. If it does playing a crocked Allen is as risky as playing Eli King in my opinion You really think that any of the options you mentioned are close to what a fit Joe Allen can offer (the idea that I'm suggesting we select a crocked Joe Allen is a straw man argument)? Even Sheehan, decent player that he is, has only performed at League One level, and has next to no international experience. A fit Joe Allen, with his pedigree and international experience is a no-brainer when we're talking about the relative merits of the options we have. In 19/20 he had the achilles tendon rupture that made him miss 275 days (38 games), then in 20/21 he had a hamstring injury which made him miss 61 days (10 games), and then another injury in 22/23 than made him miss 62 days (14 games) He's now 33, only played 12 league games this season, and retired from international football specifically because he said his body couldn't handle it. We're not talking about a "fit Joe Allen" anymore. This is the key context Josh Sheehan on the other hand is 5 years younger, and has played 30 times in the league for a team that's 3rd in League One. So given this I would personally rather put Sheehan out on the pitch, yes. Even without this context, Sheehan should be the answer to who you would put out given that he's the only 1 of the two who has made himself available for selection
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 11:09:12 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 11:09:12 GMT
Suggesting Eli King is on a par with Joe Allen is a nonsense and you know it.
Allen's recent injury history is irrelevant as he's currently fit, and assuming that continues, would be a strong option from the bench. Look at Swansea’s second goal against Sunderland on the weekend. Vintage Allen, anticipating the pass into midfield even before it's made.
Sheehan is a good player, but in such important games, given a choice between a player with extensive Premier League and international tournament experience and one limited to the lower leagues I would always go for the experienced option.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 11:13:14 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 11:13:14 GMT
The thing I find really odd about these responses is why people find it so problematical for Page to ring Allen to see if he will play. What's the harm in asking the question? Personally I think it would reflect very well on Page, as it would show he was ignoring any possible noise from people's reactions.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 11:14:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by marsvolta on Feb 26, 2024 11:14:57 GMT
I get the feeling that this will end with Allen not being named in the squad and winsumluzsum saying that this proves that he was right that ego and pride got in the way of us having the best available squad ha ha. Then will proceed to put the words ego and pride into every post from then on .
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Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 11:25:29 GMT
When someone has to resort to personal attacks it shows they've lost the argument.
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Post by jbt95 on Feb 26, 2024 11:26:43 GMT
The thing I find really odd about these responses is why people find it so problematical for Page to ring Allen to see if he will play. What's the harm in asking the question? Personally I think it would reflect very well on Page, as it would show he was ignoring any possible noise from people's reactions. Because Allen has retired and is still returning from injury.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 11:33:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 11:33:18 GMT
The thing I find really odd about these responses is why people find it so problematical for Page to ring Allen to see if he will play. What's the harm in asking the question? Personally I think it would reflect very well on Page, as it would show he was ignoring any possible noise from people's reactions. Because Allen has retired and is still returning from injury. If Allen continues to start games between now and the playoffs he will be fit enough for a place on the bench for sure. The fact that Allen retired is no reason for not asking the question. If he says no it's no big deal. I think there's a lot of identification with Page going on here. People are essentially saying "if I was in Page's position I wouldn't ask Allen back because of how it would make me look".
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Post by rangers15 on Feb 26, 2024 12:09:10 GMT
Because Allen has retired and is still returning from injury. If Allen continues to start games between now and the playoffs he will be fit enough for a place on the bench for sure. The fact that Allen retired is no reason for not asking the question. If he says no it's no big deal. I think there's a lot of identification with Page going on here. People are essentially saying "if I was in Page's position I wouldn't ask Allen back because of how it would make me look". if we're doing "what ifs", and there are some big IFs flying about... How do you know that Page hasn't asked Allen to come out of retirement?
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 12:32:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 12:32:35 GMT
Good question, to which I obviously don't know the answer. It is entirely possible that that conversation has been had (or more likely has yet to happen as there's still some time to go before the playoffs), and there may have been an agreement that the conversation should be kept private. In which case we'll never know, unless a bold journalist asks the question post squad selection.
As for Allen coming out of retirement ar his own instigation, there's no reason why he can't do so, if only for the next couple of games. He might think that it would look egotistical for him to come back at this point, having (from one perspective) allowed the rest of the squad to do the spade work. But I would hope, like Page, he would put such thoughts to one side, because objectively he would strengthen the bench.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 14:02:25 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 14:02:25 GMT
Allen in whoscored team of the week for the Championship. Just saying...
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Post by jimexotic on Feb 26, 2024 16:26:26 GMT
This thread is insane
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Post by jimexotic on Feb 26, 2024 16:30:04 GMT
OK. I understand. You don't want Cymru to have the strongest possible squad going into the playoffs. That's pretty clear. No I want either Joe Ledley or Robbie Savage in the squad, it all hangs on those three park runs. I'd be half tempted to call up Dafydd Iwan, he doesn't have to play, he can just sing continuously and raise morale. If we need to nick a goal late on maybe calling up Craig Bellamy wouldn't be a bad idea, last ten minutes.
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Post by wirralwelsh on Feb 26, 2024 16:48:37 GMT
When a player retires from international football he is by definition withdrawing himself from availability and consideration for a Wales call up. Therefore he won't be called up. It doesn't get any more complicated than that. With Amapadu and James both doing well in the Championship this season its of minor importance whether Allen is available or not in any case. Still if we lose it will be Page's fault for not calling up a retired and washed up Joe Allen, which would have absolutely made all the difference to the outcome!
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 16:52:00 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 16:52:00 GMT
OK. I understand. You don't want Cymru to have the strongest possible squad going into the playoffs. That's pretty clear. No I want either Joe Ledley or Robbie Savage in the squad, it all hangs on those three park runs. I'd be half tempted to call up Dafydd Iwan, he doesn't have to play, he can just sing continuously and raise morale. If we need to nick a goal late on maybe calling up Craig Bellamy wouldn't be a bad idea, last ten minutes. Last time I checked Ledley, Savage and Bellamy were all retired, and I don't think that Iwan has played at any level. Whereas Allen was in the whoscored Championship team of the week with a 7.99 rating. But of course, why on Earth would we select players on current form?
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 16:58:12 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 16:58:12 GMT
When a player retires from international football he is by definition withdrawing himself from availability and consideration for a Wales call up. Therefore he won't be called up. It doesn't get any more complicated than that. With Amapadu and James both doing well in the Championship this season its of minor importance whether Allen is available or not in any case. Still if we lose it will be Page's fault for not calling up a retired and washed up Joe Allen, which would have absolutely made all the difference to the outcome! Have you heard of Henrik Larsen? There was a big push to get him to reconsider his retirement back in the day, and I seem to recall it was successful. I don't seem to recall that there is a law that prohibits managers from asking players to come out of international retirement. Although judging by the responses on here perhaps there should be... How exactly do you reconcile your washed up observation with Allen's performance over the weekend? You can watch the match in its entirety on Youtube if you want and make an informed assessment.
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Post by athenempadu on Feb 26, 2024 17:01:44 GMT
Ampadu & Jordan James could run around the pitch all day long, and I can't remember the last time we had such an imposing midfield presence. Joe Allen is one of my favourite Welsh players, but I think his time has passed, and young Charlie Savage looks capable enough to cover any emergency situations.
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Post by fireboy0610 on Feb 26, 2024 17:12:04 GMT
No I want either Joe Ledley or Robbie Savage in the squad, it all hangs on those three park runs. I'd be half tempted to call up Dafydd Iwan, he doesn't have to play, he can just sing continuously and raise morale. If we need to nick a goal late on maybe calling up Craig Bellamy wouldn't be a bad idea, last ten minutes. Last time I checked Ledley, Savage and Bellamy were all retired, and I don't think that Iwan has played at any level. Whereas Allen was in the whoscored Championship team of the week with a 7.99 rating. But of course, why on Earth would we select players on current form? Whoooooosh.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 17:26:39 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 17:26:39 GMT
Ampadu & Jordan James could run around the pitch all day long, and I can't remember the last time we had such an imposing midfield presence. Joe Allen is one of my favourite Welsh players, but I think his time has passed, and young Charlie Savage looks capable enough to cover any emergency situations. I agree with the first comment, which is why I would have Allen on the bench. There's every chance that Ampadu and James can play the duration of both (hopefully) games, but injuries happen, and you also want options if you're chasing the game. Savage has half a season of League One football for a struggling team and one friendly game at international level against opposition at National league standard. That isn't remotely adequate credentials for games of the magnitude of the playoffs. For what it's worth if we did have Sheehan and Allen on the bench and Ampadu or James were unavailable or injured early on in the Finland match I would probably bring on Sheehan, and keep Allen for the final half hour to maximise his impact.
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Post by athenempadu on Feb 26, 2024 17:38:06 GMT
I agree with the first comment, which is why I would have Allen on the bench. There's every chance that Ampadu and James can play the duration of both (hopefully) games, but injuries happen, and you also want options if you're chasing the game. Savage has half a season of League One football for a struggling team and one friendly game at international level against opposition at National league standard. That isn't remotely adequate credentials for games of the magnitude of the playoffs. For what it's worth if we did have Sheehan and Allen on the bench and Ampadu or James were unavailable or injured early on in the Finland match I would probably bring on Sheehan, and keep Allen for the final half hour to maximise his impact. It seemed symbolic to me when Bale, Allen & Gunter all announced their international retirements at the same time. It was like a ceremonial changing of the guard, and I really can't see him coming back, although I could be wrong!
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 17:51:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 17:51:56 GMT
I agree with the first comment, which is why I would have Allen on the bench. There's every chance that Ampadu and James can play the duration of both (hopefully) games, but injuries happen, and you also want options if you're chasing the game. Savage has half a season of League One football for a struggling team and one friendly game at international level against opposition at National league standard. That isn't remotely adequate credentials for games of the magnitude of the playoffs. For what it's worth if we did have Sheehan and Allen on the bench and Ampadu or James were unavailable or injured early on in the Finland match I would probably bring on Sheehan, and keep Allen for the final half hour to maximise his impact. It seemed symbolic to me when Bale, Allen & Gunter all announced their international retirements at the same time. It was like a ceremonial changing of the guard, and I really can't see him coming back, although I could be wrong! I understand your point, but the fact that Ramsey has continued complicates the picture. The difference now is that when Ramsey is available in future (assuming he doesn't retire), and likewise for Allen if he were to return, they would be supporting cast rather than the fulcrum of things. In that sense there has been a changing of the guard, but perhaps lacking finality at this juncture.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 18:58:57 GMT
via mobile
Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 18:58:57 GMT
Zidane and Thuram were both convinced by the coach Raymond Domenech to return and lead the French squad in the 2006 World Cup. If it's good enough for France... In Van der Sar's case he had to be approached more than once about returning to the Dutch fold: www.theguardian.com/football/2009/nov/24/van-der-sar-holland-world-cupNo doubt some of you will be appalled that national coaches would debase themselves in this way.
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Post by fiveattheback on Feb 26, 2024 20:39:57 GMT
Zidane and Thuram were both convinced by the coach Raymond Domenech to return and lead the French squad in the 2006 World Cup. If it's good enough for France... In Van der Sar's case he had to be approached more than once about returning to the Dutch fold: www.theguardian.com/football/2009/nov/24/van-der-sar-holland-world-cupNo doubt some of you will be appalled that national coaches would debase themselves in this way. You're not seriously comparing Joe Allen to Zidane are you? You're the one pushing this idea that Page doesn't want Joe Allen to play for Wales, nobody else
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