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Post by jimexotic on Feb 26, 2024 20:56:34 GMT
Zidane and Thuram were both convinced by the coach Raymond Domenech to return and lead the French squad in the 2006 World Cup. If it's good enough for France... In Van der Sar's case he had to be approached more than once about returning to the Dutch fold: www.theguardian.com/football/2009/nov/24/van-der-sar-holland-world-cupNo doubt some of you will be appalled that national coaches would debase themselves in this way. Is there no end to your assumptions? Also Zidane and Thuram are two of the greatest players of their generation, Zidane is in most people's top 10 of all time, he was very much still one of the best players in the World going into his last professional game. Do you not remember Joe Allen's last few games for Wales? He was a shadow of his former self and it was quite sad to see, in fact Qatar 2022 might not have happened had he not got lucky against Ukraine when he nearly gave a penalty away due to being slower than he used to be. It's over, it's done, a new generation are stepping up to the plate and I very much doubt a few games for Swansea is going to make Joe Allen think "you know what, maybe I was wrong" and none of us know what Robert Page is thinking. If he reaches out to him and Joe says yes then that's that, maybe he reaches out to him every time it's time to name a squad, we don't know. My view is that we've got enough now to not need to turn to Joe Allen for two games because Joe Allen has proven that his body is really struggling to play a number of games in quick succession and by the time the play offs come around there's every chance that he could be injured or unfit again given how the last few years have gone. At some point you have to calm down and respect everyone's opinions rather than coming out with stuff that's pure speculation and trying to use it as a stick to beat us with for having the sheer audacity to suggest that in terms of Joe Allen playing for Wales it's almost certainly all but over and that appears to be down to one man, Joe Allen.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 21:54:53 GMT
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Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 21:54:53 GMT
Talk about gaslighting. I saw with my very own eyes Joe Allen turn in a vintage 62 minute performance over the weekend. And you don't need to take my word for it, or perhaps whoscored just made up their stats that put him in their Championship team of the week? Also have a look at Swansea's second goal on the match highlights. Allen anticipates the pass into midfield before the pass is even played and sprints to make up a good 10 yards to make the interception before having the composure to play the ball through to Ronald to score. Talking about games played a long time ago is whataboutery at his finest.
Allen just needs to be good enough to warrant a place in the squad and on that front he is streets ahead of Savage, King, Howley and Smith. If he is included he would be ahead of Sheehan for the cameo role but perhaps behind him if a longer stint were required.
The Dutch went to extraordinary lengths to persuade a 40 year old Van der Sar to return to the international fold. I see no reason for us to be to be precious about making a similar approach to Allen. Hopefully James and Ampadu will play so well that his services are not required but prudent planning should be based on hoping for the best but planning for the worst.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 22:05:54 GMT
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Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 22:05:54 GMT
Zidane and Thuram were both convinced by the coach Raymond Domenech to return and lead the French squad in the 2006 World Cup. If it's good enough for France... In Van der Sar's case he had to be approached more than once about returning to the Dutch fold: www.theguardian.com/football/2009/nov/24/van-der-sar-holland-world-cupNo doubt some of you will be appalled that national coaches would debase themselves in this way. You're not seriously comparing Joe Allen to Zidane are you? You're the one pushing this idea that Page doesn't want Joe Allen to play for Wales, nobody else The point I was making was that there is plenty of precedent for international managers asking esteemed former internationals to come out of retirement. But then you knew that was the point I was making... One thing's apparent is that several on here think that Page shouldn't try and persuade Allen to return, which is an opinion they are entitled to, but isn't in my opinion a balanced take of the relative strengths of the candidates at our disposal.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 22:15:22 GMT
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Post by fireboy0610 on Feb 26, 2024 22:15:22 GMT
Talk about gaslighting. I saw with my very own eyes Joe Allen turn in a vintage 62 minute performance over the weekend. And you don't need to take my word for it, or perhaps whoscored just made up their stats that put him in their Championship team of the week? Also have a look at Swansea's second goal on the match highlights. Allen anticipates the pass into midfield before the pass is even played and sprints to make up a good 10 yards to make the interception before having the composure to play the ball through to Ronald to score. Talking about games played a long time ago is whataboutery at his finest. Allen just needs to be good enough to warrant a place in the squad and on that front he is streets ahead of Savage, King, Howley and Smith. If he is included he would be ahead of Sheehan for the cameo role but perhaps behind him if a longer stint were required. The Dutch went to extraordinary lengths to persuade a 40 year old Van der Sar to return to the international fold. I see no reason for us to be to be precious about making a similar approach to Allen. Hopefully James and Ampadu will play so well that his services are not required but prudent planning should be based on hoping for the best but planning for the worst. I too watched his 62 minutes on Saturday, he was good but remember the opposition, finland are a tad better than sunderland, Imo I don't think he should come back into the wales squad. Why can't you just accept other people's opinions instead of banging on.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 22:22:18 GMT
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Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 22:22:18 GMT
I've been on the receiving end of whataboutery, sarcasm and put downs and have kept on point, but somehow I'm the one not accepting other's opinions. Really?
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 22:25:47 GMT
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Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 22:25:47 GMT
I too watched his 62 minutes on Saturday, he was good but remember the opposition, finland are a tad better than sunderland, Imo I don't think he should come back into the wales squad.
Why can't you just accept other people's opinions instead of banging on.
Given that Kamara is probably Finland's best player, and he's only in the Championship, I think Finland are probably just about at Sunderland's level, and we're probably just about at Leicester's.
One other thing. I find it curious that no one has expressed an opinion on the central theme that I have introduced, which is that I think it's a good idea for our national manager to ask a player to return from retirement if that strengthens the squad. I guess people are opposed to the idea on principle, but I would rather not have to guess.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 22:36:27 GMT
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Post by jimexotic on Feb 26, 2024 22:36:27 GMT
I've been on the receiving end of whataboutery, sarcasm and put downs and have kept on point, but somehow I'm the one not accepting other's opinions. Really? People just disagreed with you and then you started arguing. This thread is full of you arguing and making assumptions. Nobody is gaslighting you, people just don't agree with what you are saying and a lot of it is because for quite a while now we've thought that Joe Allen is past his best for a number of reasons and it appears that a year ago Joe thought the same thing too. I found your responses funny at first and I thought you were playing along tongue in cheek but it appears that a few comments have gone over your head and I'm starting to think that it's probably best that this thread calms down a bit now. We know you think Joe Allen should be called up, we've definitely established that, pretty much everyone else doesn't think it's that a great an idea and doesn't think it would happen regardless. You've said your bit, we've said ours, it's done to death.
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Post by melynwy on Feb 26, 2024 22:39:31 GMT
Zidane and Thuram were both convinced by the coach Raymond Domenech to return and lead the French squad in the 2006 World Cup. If it's good enough for France... In Van der Sar's case he had to be approached more than once about returning to the Dutch fold: www.theguardian.com/football/2009/nov/24/van-der-sar-holland-world-cupNo doubt some of you will be appalled that national coaches would debase themselves in this way. Is there no end to your assumptions? Also Zidane and Thuram are two of the greatest players of their generation, Zidane is in most people's top 10 of all time, he was very much still one of the best players in the World going into his last professional game. Do you not remember Joe Allen's last few games for Wales? He was a shadow of his former self and it was quite sad to see, in fact Qatar 2022 might not have happened had he not got lucky against Ukraine when he nearly gave a penalty away due to being slower than he used to be. It's over, it's done, a new generation are stepping up to the plate and I very much doubt a few games for Swansea is going to make Joe Allen think "you know what, maybe I was wrong" and none of us know what Robert Page is thinking. If he reaches out to him and Joe says yes then that's that, maybe he reaches out to him every time it's time to name a squad, we don't know. My view is that we've got enough now to not need to turn to Joe Allen for two games because Joe Allen has proven that his body is really struggling to play a number of games in quick succession and by the time the play offs come around there's every chance that he could be injured or unfit again given how the last few years have gone. At some point you have to calm down and respect everyone's opinions rather than coming out with stuff that's pure speculation and trying to use it as a stick to beat us with for having the sheer audacity to suggest that in terms of Joe Allen playing for Wales it's almost certainly all but over and that appears to be down to one man, Joe Allen. Not to take sides in this argument, but in fairness he was in state to play at the World Cup due to a completely botched recovery from a serious injury. That wasn't age-related. Had be been 22 he still shouldn't have played. In my mind Allen has retired from Wales, and that's that. I'm sure Bale would still hold his own in the team too and come up with moments of magic, but they're not an option. If that were to change regarding Allen, then great, but it's a moot point at the moment.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 22:49:41 GMT
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Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 22:49:41 GMT
I've been on the receiving end of whataboutery, sarcasm and put downs and have kept on point, but somehow I'm the one not accepting other's opinions. Really? People just disagreed with you and then you started arguing. This thread is full of you arguing and making assumptions. Nobody is gaslighting you, people just don't agree with what you are saying and a lot of it is because for quite a while now we've thought that Joe Allen is past his best for a number of reasons and it appears that a year ago Joe thought the same thing too. I found your responses funny at first and I thought you were playing along tongue in cheek but it appears that a few comments have gone over your head and I'm starting to think that it's probably best that this thread calms down a bit now. We know you think Joe Allen should be called up, we've definitely established that, pretty much everyone else doesn't think it's that a great an idea and doesn't think it would happen regardless. You've said your bit, we've said ours, it's done to death. Read your contributions again. You're being more than a tad disingenuous.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 22:52:14 GMT
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Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 22:52:14 GMT
Is there no end to your assumptions? Also Zidane and Thuram are two of the greatest players of their generation, Zidane is in most people's top 10 of all time, he was very much still one of the best players in the World going into his last professional game. Do you not remember Joe Allen's last few games for Wales? He was a shadow of his former self and it was quite sad to see, in fact Qatar 2022 might not have happened had he not got lucky against Ukraine when he nearly gave a penalty away due to being slower than he used to be. It's over, it's done, a new generation are stepping up to the plate and I very much doubt a few games for Swansea is going to make Joe Allen think "you know what, maybe I was wrong" and none of us know what Robert Page is thinking. If he reaches out to him and Joe says yes then that's that, maybe he reaches out to him every time it's time to name a squad, we don't know. My view is that we've got enough now to not need to turn to Joe Allen for two games because Joe Allen has proven that his body is really struggling to play a number of games in quick succession and by the time the play offs come around there's every chance that he could be injured or unfit again given how the last few years have gone. At some point you have to calm down and respect everyone's opinions rather than coming out with stuff that's pure speculation and trying to use it as a stick to beat us with for having the sheer audacity to suggest that in terms of Joe Allen playing for Wales it's almost certainly all but over and that appears to be down to one man, Joe Allen. Not to take sides in this argument, but in fairness he was in state to play at the World Cup due to a completely botched recovery from a serious injury. That wasn't age-related. Had be been 22 he still shouldn't have played. In my mind Allen has retired from Wales, and that's that. I'm sure Bale would still hold his own in the team too and come up with moments of magic, but they're not an option. If that were to change regarding Allen, then great, but it's a moot point at the moment. But Bale has totally retired from playing, so the comparison doesn't hold. At least it's good to hear someone agree that it would be good to see Allen back in the fold.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 22:53:14 GMT
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Post by jimexotic on Feb 26, 2024 22:53:14 GMT
Honestly mate, give it a rest, it's getting quite weird now. Mods, feel free to delete this comment.
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Joe Allen
Feb 26, 2024 23:00:00 GMT
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Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 26, 2024 23:00:00 GMT
Honestly mate, give it a rest, it's getting quite weird now. Mods, feel free to delete this comment. Why not follow your own advice?
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Post by marsvolta on Feb 26, 2024 23:11:33 GMT
Not to take sides in this argument, but in fairness he was in state to play at the World Cup due to a completely botched recovery from a serious injury. That wasn't age-related. Had be been 22 he still shouldn't have played. In my mind Allen has retired from Wales, and that's that. I'm sure Bale would still hold his own in the team too and come up with moments of magic, but they're not an option. If that were to change regarding Allen, then great, but it's a moot point at the moment. But Bale has totally retired from playing, so the comparison doesn't hold. At least it's good to hear someone agree that it would be good to see Allen back in the fold. Most would like to see a fit and in form Allen back in the fold, that isn’t really up for debate, it’s just that most of us have accepted that it’s unlikely (and no, that isn’t to do with egos) A fit injury free Allen would love to be back playing for Wales again but he doesn’t feel that he can do it. Equally, Page would love a fit and in form Allen back in the squad but respects Allen’s decision and knowledge of his own body. There’s nothing to suggest that things are any different than when he retired and most have moved on, that’ll remain the case unless we hear the unlikely but welcome news that the situation has changed.
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Post by iot on Feb 27, 2024 7:21:17 GMT
You're not seriously comparing Joe Allen to Zidane are you? You're the one pushing this idea that Page doesn't want Joe Allen to play for Wales, nobody else The point I was making was that there is plenty of precedent for international managers asking esteemed former internationals to come out of retirement. But then you knew that was the point I was making... One thing's apparent is that several on here think that Page shouldn't try and persuade Allen to return, which is an opinion they are entitled to, but isn't in my opinion a balanced take of the relative strengths of the candidates at our disposal. Where I agree with you is that a fit Joe Allen makes our squad, and would be a very useful option, particularly if he can get a few starts before the game. So I disagree with Jim on that front, and I think most Welsh fans would love to see him returning. That said, what annoys me about your comments are the multitude of assumptions you make. None of us have any idea what’s been said between Page and Allen, whether Page has tried to get him back into the fold previously (discretely - as probably happens more often than not in these situations), whether he has again contacted him to check on his availability, and your assumption that Allen would accept an invitation back, even though he hasn’t made himself available again (which he could just as easily do). And then your assumption that all of this is borne out of Page’s ego. Sorry, but that’s just a ridiculous stretch, and I just find it bizarre that you keep going on about it and seem to be convinced that each of those assumptions are correct, based on absolutely nothing. The other thing to consider is that squad selections are made a good few weeks in advance for logistical reasons, so the squad may have already been decided for all we know, so Allen’s hardly going to be picked based on one league start and good performance. To me, when you look at the reasons Allen gave for his decision in the first place, and you look at everything that’s happened since then, the evidence suggests that he wouldn’t be open for a return.
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Joe Allen
Feb 27, 2024 9:36:39 GMT
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Post by winsumluzsum on Feb 27, 2024 9:36:39 GMT
But Bale has totally retired from playing, so the comparison doesn't hold. At least it's good to hear someone agree that it would be good to see Allen back in the fold. Most would like to see a fit and in form Allen back in the fold, that isn’t really up for debate, it’s just that most of us have accepted that it’s unlikely (and no, that isn’t to do with egos) A fit injury free Allen would love to be back playing for Wales again but he doesn’t feel that he can do it. Equally, Page would love a fit and in form Allen back in the squad but respects Allen’s decision and knowledge of his own body. There’s nothing to suggest that things are any different than when he retired and most have moved on, that’ll remain the case unless we hear the unlikely but welcome news that the situation has changed. Thanks for expressing your point of view in this way.
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Post by vvm on Feb 27, 2024 11:20:49 GMT
Think I'd be happy with either outcome. If Page were to have a word and Allen was open to it, then he would probably be a useful option off the bench for 30 mins or so. If he doesn't fancy it then fair enough, Sheehan or Morrell are probably capable of putting in a similar shift.
Injury/Fitness permitting, Ampadu and James should be playing the full 90 in (hopefully) both games and so this shouldn't change much in the grand scheme of things.
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Post by CrackityJones on Feb 27, 2024 12:13:29 GMT
There's more chance of Allen getting injured before the play off games than him miraculously coming out of self-imposed retirement
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Post by athenempadu on Feb 27, 2024 13:54:08 GMT
If Allen can't make it, maybe we should we call up Gareth Bale for the Finland game? I saw him walking around Roath Park at a brisk pace the other day, and he looked very fit. He even drop-kicked an empty can into a litter bin, so the skills are clearly still there. Any thoughts?
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Joe Allen
Feb 27, 2024 16:59:45 GMT
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Post by jbt95 on Feb 27, 2024 16:59:45 GMT
If Allen can't make it, maybe we should we call up Gareth Bale for the Finland game? I saw him walking around Roath Park at a brisk pace the other day, and he looked very fit. He even drop-kicked an empty can into a litter bin, so the skills are clearly still there. Any thoughts? What about Rush? Sure he could still do a job.
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Joe Allen
Feb 28, 2024 9:10:40 GMT
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 28, 2024 9:10:40 GMT
Suggesting Eli King is on a par with Joe Allen is a nonsense and you know it. Allen's recent injury history is irrelevant as he's currently fit, and assuming that continues, would be a strong option from the bench. Look at Swansea’s second goal against Sunderland on the weekend. Vintage Allen, anticipating the pass into midfield even before it's made. Sheehan is a good player, but in such important games, given a choice between a player with extensive Premier League and international tournament experience and one limited to the lower leagues I would always go for the experienced option. I never said Eli King is on a par with Joe Allen, you've not read my points properly if you think that's what I said
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 28, 2024 9:12:55 GMT
The thing I find really odd about these responses is why people find it so problematical for Page to ring Allen to see if he will play. What's the harm in asking the question? Personally I think it would reflect very well on Page, as it would show he was ignoring any possible noise from people's reactions. No one is saying he shouldn't ring Allen. What everyone's saying is that if Page doesn't ring Allen it's not because he has an ego problem It's one thing to make the remark "we should be giving Allen a call to see if he can come out of retirement for these games" - I don't think anyone disagrees with that It's another thing altogether to say if the call doesn't happen it's because our manager is egotistical and should be criticised - most would disagree with that
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Post by stevej on Feb 29, 2024 8:54:26 GMT
i would think joes overriding priority is to help us finish the season as strongly as possible. its been a frustrating last 2 seasons for him but atm hes fit and contributing. the last thing he would want is to potentially finish his career with us with a relegation.. we should be too good for that, but from what ive read hes a big factor on and off the pitch atm trying to ensure that that doesnt even become a significant possibility...
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Joe Allen
Mar 4, 2024 21:46:48 GMT
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Post by winsumluzsum on Mar 4, 2024 21:46:48 GMT
This article was at the back of my mind when I made my controversial comments last week: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66520619Page has been partially vindicated by the emergence of Jordan James. However, I'd be interested to know what people make of this quote: "Page said there would be no chance of Allen returning, even if the player contacted him to offer to make himself available again. "No there's no difference," Page said." Rigid thinking if nothing else.
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Joe Allen
Mar 5, 2024 10:56:24 GMT
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Post by njdragon on Mar 5, 2024 10:56:24 GMT
Ok on paper this is the strongest squad we have had in some time I'm not sure. I think we've got a bit more depth but with a lot of players of similar ability, so we may have 20 or so bottom prem to bottom championship type players, plus a couple of creme de la creme. But for me it doesn't match up to for example the 93 / 94 team with sparky, rush, deano, giggs, ratcliffe, pembo, southhall, Bowen although maybe the support for them was lower standard. Plus if we had the best squad ever, then why are we below the faroes. I think he was being strong in his commitment to develop the younger players. I don’t think any manager in their right mind would turn down the experience of an inform, fit Allen to get us across the line
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Joe Allen
Mar 13, 2024 18:05:01 GMT
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Post by winsumluzsum on Mar 13, 2024 18:05:01 GMT
I'm not sure. I think we've got a bit more depth but with a lot of players of similar ability, so we may have 20 or so bottom prem to bottom championship type players, plus a couple of creme de la creme. But for me it doesn't match up to for example the 93 / 94 team with sparky, rush, deano, giggs, ratcliffe, pembo, southhall, Bowen although maybe the support for them was lower standard. Plus if we had the best squad ever, then why are we below the faroes. I think he was being strong in his commitment to develop the younger players. I don’t think any manager in their right mind would turn down the experience of an inform, fit Allen to get us across the line Any reflections?
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Joe Allen
Mar 13, 2024 22:22:45 GMT
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Post by njdragon on Mar 13, 2024 22:22:45 GMT
I think he was being strong in his commitment to develop the younger players. I don’t think any manager in their right mind would turn down the experience of an inform, fit Allen to get us across the line Any reflections? Umm sorry what now??
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Post by cogancoronation31 on Mar 14, 2024 12:48:01 GMT
Wonder if Joe and (unexpectedly) Rambo will feature in this weekend's club game?
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Joe Allen
Mar 15, 2024 20:43:30 GMT
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Post by winsumluzsum on Mar 15, 2024 20:43:30 GMT
Well there we have it: 5:18 in Allen says unequivocally that if he got the call from Rob Page for him to join the squad should we qualify for the Euros, he would never say no. You can't get more unambiguous than that. youtu.be/Pf4uTqa5LLw?si=DmOGinC5durwO6YfHowever, he then goes on to say "as he has said recently" (interesting that turn of phrase) he doesn't expect to get the phonecall, and says diplomatic things about the quality in the squad and the young players coming through, and how they deserve the chance to represent Cymru in the Euros. I sincerely hope that if we qualify that Page shows flexibility in his approach to selecting Allen, as that is a real sign of strength not weakness. One thing is certain, a fit Joe Allen would be an invaluable asset to the squad and would merit selection.
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Joe Allen
Mar 15, 2024 21:00:38 GMT
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Post by marsvolta on Mar 15, 2024 21:00:38 GMT
Well there we have it: 5:18 in Allen says unequivocally that if he got the call from Rob Page for him to join the squad should we qualify for the Euros, he would never say no. You can't get more unambiguous than that. youtu.be/Pf4uTqa5LLw?si=DmOGinC5durwO6YfHowever, he then goes on to say "as he has said recently" (interesting that turn of phrase) he doesn't expect to get the phonecall, and says diplomatic things about the quality in the squad and the young players coming through, and how they deserve the chance to represent Cymru in the Euros. I sincerely hope that if we qualify that Page shows flexibility in his approach to selecting Allen, as that is a real sign of strength not weakness. One thing is certain, a fit Joe Allen would be an invaluable asset to the squad and would merit selection. Another angle of course could be Allen announcing that he’s coming out of retirement, irrespective of whether we qualify or not, that would be 100% unambiguous
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Joe Allen
Mar 15, 2024 21:08:26 GMT
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Post by surge on Mar 15, 2024 21:08:26 GMT
"It was a decision that was very difficult to make, but I think if you look at the way the last 12 months have gone in terms of injuries, it has probably been justified in some ways.
"Part of the decision I made was about making space for the next generation. The squad is in a really good place and we've got really good strength-in-depth there." (Joe from the same interview).
Ultimately one hopes Allen has something to offer still at international level and would be called up if available and in form, forcing through players could easily be the wrong thing to do if they're not ready, but we also need to look to the future and Allen has started 4 Championship games so far this season.
It sounds like Joe's not closing the door but recognising he made the right decision at that time for him and his family.
Don't forget when "Is Bale going to retire?" was the big story at Euros 2020 despite him having a secure Real Madrid contract and being months from leading Wales to World Cup. The press want hits even if it's promoting a distracting story. I think Page is just looking to stop it being a story as much as possible and laying down mantle to next generation.
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