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Post by flynnfan on Jul 13, 2010 13:05:39 GMT
I know this is getting discussed on the transfer thread, but I reckon it's taking over to the point where it deserves a thread of its own.
There is so much vitriol being aimed Ledleys way fro Cardiff fans and it seems completely unfair to me. The extra 2 million the club might have got for him would probably have been spazzed away anyway- look at the amount they've wasted there recently on wages on Fowler, Hasslebaink, not to mention Ridsdale! ..and loan duffers like Johnson and Etuhu. It's not Ledleys responsibility to go to a piss poor premiership club just so Cardiff can pay another tax bill. Its the responsibilty of the chairman/board etc. I'm not going to blame Ledley for doing what's best for him - And it's not just a financial thing either. Maybe if he'd had the choice to go to Arsenal I'd be having a go at him, but he didn't. His choice in the end seemed to be either Celtic or Stoke. I'd have chosen Celtic, no doubt about it
- 60,000 home crowds - European football - Very good chance of winning trophies - Chance to play in one of the biggest derbies in the world - Chance to play for a manager who was a very similar sort of player.
And like I've said, Hartson played his best Wales games whilst at Celtic, so it shouldn't affect his international performances. Good luck Joe!
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Post by Tim P on Jul 13, 2010 14:55:46 GMT
there's very little to disagree with there.
for me, it all rests on what lennon can do for him. here's hoping that lennon gets celtic winning things and being competitive in europe.
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Post by saints19 on Jul 13, 2010 19:00:03 GMT
The European football thing for me is crucial, in terms of: will he playing 'european football' or European Football. In other words, will it be a play-off against, say, Wolfsburg, Dynamo Kiev or Anderlecht that Celtic lose, or a run to the last 16 in which Celtic get to play against the top club teams in Europe? The latter is obviously much more preferable and as European football is the main argument for Ledley choosing Celtic (aside from the money and his personal life) it matters a great deal which it is.
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Post by llannerch on Jul 13, 2010 21:02:58 GMT
The European football thing for me is crucial, in terms of: will he playing 'european football' or European Football. In other words, will it be a play-off against, say, Wolfsburg, Dynamo Kiev or Anderlecht that Celtic lose, or a run to the last 16 in which Celtic get to play against the top club teams in Europe? The latter is obviously much more preferable and as European football is the main argument for Ledley choosing Celtic (aside from the money and his personal life) it matters a great deal which it is. Absolutely spot on. The joke used to always be the Old Firm being out of Europe before Xmas - more like before we'd started Xmas shopping, let alone trimmed up. They perked up a bit but have tailed off again. I'd be surprised if he has more than 4 or 5 European ties under his belt by the end of this season. That's still 4 or 5 more than at Stoke though.
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Post by bale-droed on Jul 14, 2010 12:54:07 GMT
im just curious we all know about roma and celtic who wanted him?
but what turkish clubs and other italian clubs wanted him? (just curious)
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Post by squatter1 on Jul 17, 2010 8:41:48 GMT
Celtic have drawn Braga in the Champions League qualifiers - the second best team in Portugal last year. They've got a quad stuffed full of Brazilians.
That's a nightmare draw for them, could well be looking at the Uefa cup already.
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Post by flynnfan on Jul 17, 2010 16:01:28 GMT
Watched most of the first half of Celtic v Man U from Toronto last night on an illegal feed. Looks to me like Celtic will have to put in an immense effort to the reach the CL group stage. There's always the Europa league though- It'll still all good European experience for Ledley.
From what I saw, Joe did OK- he was neat, tidy and energetic without doing anything particularly special, but then that's his game I suppose. He did set up Celtics best chance of the first half with a neat pass to their left winger (Joe was in central midfield). I went to bed at half time, but I heard it was Joe who won the penalty, clumsily brought down after getting the better of Smalling. Then he went off with the scores tied, and ManU hit 2 late goals.
It's a shame that he doesn't seem to have the quality of player around him that Celtic had only a few years ago, but it does mean he's going to have to take a lot of reponsibility there now. If he manages to swim rather than sink in the old firm goldfish bowl, then it augurs well for Wales.
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Post by saints19 on Jul 19, 2010 13:45:48 GMT
I'd still back Celtic to beat Braga. The Portuguese league isn't all that really, although occasionally a team from it does something in Europe - for example Porto winning the Champions' League in 2003.
If Celtic lose, they would be in the Europa League, which still has decent teams in it.
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Post by Tim P on Jul 19, 2010 16:37:30 GMT
wouldnt they go into a later qualifying round for the europa league? i seem to remember this happened to everton.
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Post by saints19 on Jul 29, 2010 15:22:19 GMT
I'd still back Celtic to beat Braga. The Portuguese league isn't all that really, although occasionally a team from it does something in Europe - for example Porto winning the Champions' League in 2003. If Celtic lose, they would be in the Europa League, which still has decent teams in it. Seems I was wrong, as Celtic lost 3-0 yesterday. That's them basically out of the tie. Had they got an away goal it would have at least given them something to fight for. Terrible start for Ledley. Celtc will now presumably fail to make up the deficit ad drop into the Europa League where they will face a play-off. Lose that, and Ledley will be out of Europe having gained less European game time than Steve Evans. Oh dear.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2010 15:36:25 GMT
I'd still back Celtic to beat Braga. The Portuguese league isn't all that really, although occasionally a team from it does something in Europe - for example Porto winning the Champions' League in 2003. If Celtic lose, they would be in the Europa League, which still has decent teams in it. Seems I was wrong, as Celtic lost 3-0 yesterday. That's them basically out of the tie. Had they got an away goal it would have at least given them something to fight for. Terrible start for Ledley. Celtc will now presumably fail to make up the deficit ad drop into the Europa League where they will face a play-off. Lose that, and Ledley will be out of Europe having gained less European game time than Steve Evans. Oh dear. Hes only got himself to blame. Looking at that Celtic side they will be going through a terrible time for the forseeable future, Lennon has been doing most of his signing from Championship level and Celtic are little more than a Championship quality club at the moment. Add to that they will be playing teams week in week out who will be even weaker than that and you really have to say he has made a right cock up in moving there. Personally I feel he should have forced that move to Stoke through at all costs or simply stayed at Cardiff. I think he would be better off in the long run staying in England and playing decent opposition every week. He could soon be out of Europe and playing some real rank sides.
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Post by squatter1 on Jul 29, 2010 16:12:00 GMT
Totally unsurprising, sadly.
Hopefully getting kicked and called a soft Welsh c*nt by burly highlanders on icy windswept pitches in the middle of nowhere week in week out for the next year will at least make him tougher.
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Post by saints19 on Jul 31, 2010 17:14:16 GMT
Not all the teams in the SPL are sub-Championship standard. Quite a few would survive at that level in my view, let's not forget the Championship contains some relatively poor teams too. Teams like Dundee United, Motherwell, Aberdeen and Hibs would survive in that league.
However, for Ledley's move to Celtic to really be worthwhile, they must be playing in Europe in the group stages of either the Champions' League or Europa League. Preferably the CL but a decent run in the EL can be good too, as Fulham, Rangers and Middlesbrough (among other British teams to reach the latter stages in recent years) have found out.
I reckon Celtic are virtually out of the CL now, at the same stage as TNS (who'd have guessed it), assuming they fail to overturn their 1-3 deficit in Belgium. So that means the Europa League is their only hope. Hell, they could face TNS in the play-off round in that competition. On their (Celtic's) current form I wouldn't bet against TNS!
Another thing - at the moment, the Scottish champions still go into the group stages of the CL. So if Celtic win the league this year, they will be guaranted to play some top teams. However, these seedings change on a year-by-year basis, so in a few years' time they could (and probably will) have to qualify even if they win the league.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2010 17:35:10 GMT
Not all the teams in the SPL are sub-Championship standard. Quite a few would survive at that level in my view, let's not forget the Championship contains some relatively poor teams too. Teams like Dundee United, Motherwell, Aberdeen and Hibs would survive in that league. However, for Ledley's move to Celtic to really be worthwhile, they must be playing in Europe in the group stages of either the Champions' League or Europa League. Preferably the CL but a decent run in the EL can be good too, as Fulham, Rangers and Middlesbrough (among other British teams to reach the latter stages in recent years) have found out. I reckon Celtic are virtually out of the CL now, at the same stage as TNS (who'd have guessed it), assuming they fail to overturn their 1-3 deficit in Belgium. So that means the Europa League is their only hope. Hell, they could face TNS in the play-off round in that competition. On their (Celtic's) current form I wouldn't bet against TNS! Another thing - at the moment, the Scottish champions still go into the group stages of the CL. So if Celtic win the league this year, they will be guaranted to play some top teams. However, these seedings change on a year-by-year basis, so in a few years' time they could (and probably will) have to qualify even if they win the league. Yeah I didnt mean to tar ALL the scots prem clubs with the same brush, Ill grant you that some are champ standard but its debatable how many of those there are! I think if hes going to play teams like that he may as well have stayed in England. Okay there was the lure of CL football but being brutally honest this is not the Celtic of O'Neills era, Celtic are skint and are going through a real tough time. I cannot see them achieving anything with their current squad and would even go so far as to say there has never been a better time for a team to oust Celtic from the CL berths in the league.
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Post by saints19 on Jul 31, 2010 23:22:29 GMT
Not all the teams in the SPL are sub-Championship standard. Quite a few would survive at that level in my view, let's not forget the Championship contains some relatively poor teams too. Teams like Dundee United, Motherwell, Aberdeen and Hibs would survive in that league. However, for Ledley's move to Celtic to really be worthwhile, they must be playing in Europe in the group stages of either the Champions' League or Europa League. Preferably the CL but a decent run in the EL can be good too, as Fulham, Rangers and Middlesbrough (among other British teams to reach the latter stages in recent years) have found out. I reckon Celtic are virtually out of the CL now, at the same stage as TNS (who'd have guessed it), assuming they fail to overturn their 1-3 deficit in Belgium. So that means the Europa League is their only hope. Hell, they could face TNS in the play-off round in that competition. On their (Celtic's) current form I wouldn't bet against TNS! Another thing - at the moment, the Scottish champions still go into the group stages of the CL. So if Celtic win the league this year, they will be guaranted to play some top teams. However, these seedings change on a year-by-year basis, so in a few years' time they could (and probably will) have to qualify even if they win the league. Yeah I didnt mean to tar ALL the scots prem clubs with the same brush, Ill grant you that some are champ standard but its debatable how many of those there are! I think if hes going to play teams like that he may as well have stayed in England. Okay there was the lure of CL football but being brutally honest this is not the Celtic of O'Neills era, Celtic are skint and are going through a real tough time. I cannot see them achieving anything with their current squad and would even go so far as to say there has never been a better time for a team to oust Celtic from the CL berths in the league. True, I wouldn't bet against a club breaking the Old Firm's dominance next season, remembering that Hearts did it a few years back. That said, give them time. I recall Celtic's first game under Strachan ended in a 5-0 CL qualifying defeat to Bratislava, the next game they almost overturned the deficit (they won the second leg 4-0) and I think the season after that they made the last 16 of the CL. So Lennon deserves time before we write Celtic off. Irrespective of how well or badly Celtic do this season, at some point they will have a decent team, though. Their fan base is too big for them to sink too low for too long. Anyone know how long Ledley signed a contract for?
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Post by llannerch on Aug 1, 2010 7:48:55 GMT
Yeah I didnt mean to tar ALL the scots prem clubs with the same brush, Ill grant you that some are champ standard but its debatable how many of those there are! I think if hes going to play teams like that he may as well have stayed in England. Okay there was the lure of CL football but being brutally honest this is not the Celtic of O'Neills era, Celtic are skint and are going through a real tough time. I cannot see them achieving anything with their current squad and would even go so far as to say there has never been a better time for a team to oust Celtic from the CL berths in the league. True, I wouldn't bet against a club breaking the Old Firm's dominance next season, remembering that Hearts did it a few years back. That said, give them time. I recall Celtic's first game under Strachan ended in a 5-0 CL qualifying defeat to Bratislava, the next game they almost overturned the deficit (they won the second leg 4-0) and I think the season after that they made the last 16 of the CL. So Lennon deserves time before we write Celtic off. Irrespective of how well or badly Celtic do this season, at some point they will have a decent team, though. Their fan base is too big for them to sink too low for too long. Anyone know how long Ledley signed a contract for? You could the same about Newcastle. The reality is that fan base is largely irrelevant. The Old Firm don't have multi-national exposure or profile in the same way Premiership teams do and the likes of Juventus and Real. And more importantly they lack the income from their domestic TV rights to be a major force. I reckon they're spent
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Post by idiot on Aug 1, 2010 10:07:41 GMT
ledley bottled it,no young player who wants to prove himself as a top player would move to scotland at this time in his career
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Post by flynnfan on Aug 1, 2010 20:14:16 GMT
I think he's signed a 4 year contract, so it's not completely unbelievable that Celtic will have at least one good European run in that time. Remember, Gordon Strachan lost his first European game there 5-0. Still managed to take Celtic to the last 16 of the CL a couple of times though.
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Post by saints19 on Aug 2, 2010 13:40:26 GMT
True, I wouldn't bet against a club breaking the Old Firm's dominance next season, remembering that Hearts did it a few years back. That said, give them time. I recall Celtic's first game under Strachan ended in a 5-0 CL qualifying defeat to Bratislava, the next game they almost overturned the deficit (they won the second leg 4-0) and I think the season after that they made the last 16 of the CL. So Lennon deserves time before we write Celtic off. Irrespective of how well or badly Celtic do this season, at some point they will have a decent team, though. Their fan base is too big for them to sink too low for too long. Anyone know how long Ledley signed a contract for? You could the same about Newcastle. The reality is that fan base is largely irrelevant. The Old Firm don't have multi-national exposure or profile in the same way Premiership teams do and the likes of Juventus and Real. And more importantly they lack the income from their domestic TV rights to be a major force. I reckon they're spent Using Newcastle as an example probably proves my point rather than disproving it, though. Newcastle had one bad season which meant they went down to the Championship, however their fan base and budget are much higher than the other clubs in that league so they bounced back immediately, winning the league in style. I can't see how that does anything but back up my argument. As for multi-national exposure, Celtic are often seen touring the US or Far East, or competing in cosmpolitan tournaments like the current Emirates Cup. I wouldn't agree there, either. If you think fan base is largely irrelevant, you should ask yourself why the number of fans a club gets tends to consistently be correlated with their standing in the football league pyramid. Sure, you get the odd team that punches above its weight, due to having a financial backer or simply going through a good spell, but they are the exceptions rather than the norm.
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Post by llannerch on Aug 3, 2010 12:53:04 GMT
You say fan base isn't irrelevant as it stops clubs "sinking too low", and I wouldn't disagree but so what? I hardly think Celtic's CEO tells broadcasters and investors that they should plough money into his club "because we'd never get relegated and even if we did we'd bounce back again soon enough". If this is your level of expectation of the Old Firm then maybe they are more damned than I thought?
Clubs which are the most successful have big crowds AND big TV rights deals, huge domestic commercial turnover and global commercial profile. Celtic have one but not the other, and I contend that in today's game it is the latter that is a greater determinant of success, not the former.
Year on year the Old Firm slug it out between themselves but few people care, even fewer people watch on TV, and only 100,000 attend the games.
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Post by saints19 on Aug 3, 2010 14:00:24 GMT
You say fan base isn't irrelevant as it stops clubs "sinking too low", and I wouldn't disagree but so what? I hardly think Celtic's CEO tells broadcasters and investors that they should plough money into his club "because we'd never get relegated and even if we did we'd bounce back again soon enough". If this is your level of expectation of the Old Firm then maybe they are more damned than I thought? You're twisting my words. I said that about Newcastle if you recall, that they had bounced back immediately from relegation. What I meant was to show that clubs with big fan bases generally tend to have good teams over the medium to long-term even if they have poor ones in the short term. I reckon Celtic will qualify for the group stage of the Champions' League at least twice in Ledley's 4 year contract, and the group stage of the Europa League in the years they don't. That's good experience for Ledley. Clubs which are the most successful have big crowds AND big TV rights deals, huge domestic commercial turnover and global commercial profile. Celtic have one but not the other, and I contend that in today's game it is the latter that is a greater determinant of success, not the former. Wikipedia reports that the Old Firm earn about £4.5m p/a from their current TV rights deal with ESPN and Sky. This is obviously modest compared to the Premier League clubs' deal, however, the Old Firm still do pretty well in terms of overall revenue. In the Forbes lists, they regularly outgun clubs like Aston Villa. Generally, their revenue is equivalent to at least that of a top 8 Premiership club, and against teams from other European leagues stacks up pretty well. Figures again according to Wikipedia. Year on year the Old Firm slug it out between themselves but few people care, even fewer people watch on TV, and only 100,000 attend the games. Only 100,000 people? Firstly, 'only' 100,000? Very few Premier League matches surpass that over two games. Liverpool v Man Untied, Man United v Man City, and now Arsenal v either of those tems probably would. Chelsea's ground holds less than 50,000, so too White Hart Lane. Secondly, the Old Firm play each other four times a year, with crowds ranging between 50,000 to 55,000. That's at least 200,000 overall. I reckon Ledley has weighed up his options and made a decent call. The standard of football he'll play domestically won't be as high as in the Premiership, but he'll get chances to compete at a much higher level than if he had signed for Stoke.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2010 14:52:02 GMT
You say fan base isn't irrelevant as it stops clubs "sinking too low", and I wouldn't disagree but so what? I hardly think Celtic's CEO tells broadcasters and investors that they should plough money into his club "because we'd never get relegated and even if we did we'd bounce back again soon enough". If this is your level of expectation of the Old Firm then maybe they are more damned than I thought? You're twisting my words. I said that about Newcastle if you recall, that they had bounced back immediately from relegation. What I meant was to show that clubs with big fan bases generally tend to have good teams over the medium to long-term even if they have poor ones in the short term. I reckon Celtic will qualify for the group stage of the Champions' League at least twice in Ledley's 4 year contract, and the group stage of the Europa League in the years they don't. That's good experience for Ledley. Wikipedia reports that the Old Firm earn about £4.5m p/a from their current TV rights deal with ESPN and Sky. This is obviously modest compared to the Premier League clubs' deal, however, the Old Firm still do pretty well in terms of overall revenue. In the Forbes lists, they regularly outgun clubs like Aston Villa. Generally, their revenue is equivalent to at least that of a top 8 Premiership club, and against teams from other European leagues stacks up pretty well. Figures again according to Wikipedia. Year on year the Old Firm slug it out between themselves but few people care, even fewer people watch on TV, and only 100,000 attend the games. Only 100,000 people? Firstly, 'only' 100,000? Very few Premier League matches surpass that over two games. Liverpool v Man Untied, Man United v Man City, and now Arsenal v either of those tems probably would. Chelsea's ground holds less than 50,000, so too White Hart Lane. Secondly, the Old Firm play each other four times a year, with crowds ranging between 50,000 to 55,000. That's at least 200,000 overall. I reckon Ledley has weighed up his options and made a decent call. The standard of football he'll play domestically won't be as high as in the Premiership, but he'll get chances to compete at a much higher level than if he had signed for Stoke. Personally I dont believe that he will be playing enough quality consistently than if he had signed for Stoke. 6 Champions league games in one season wont turn him into a world beater overnight- he will have to qualify for the group stages at least twice for there to be any merit in a move to Scotland as opposed to Stoke. I admit there is also the Europa league, but I think it far better to play in a stable mid table side in one of the top 4 leagues in the world than play for one of the top two in a minor league where Champions league football isnt even guaranteed. That is assuming he got in the first XI at Stoke, there would be no guarantee of that. At least he is a shoe-in at Celtic, which is an indicator of how poor Celtic have become as being honest I think he would have started out as a squad player during Martin O'Neills time there.
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Post by llannerch on Aug 3, 2010 17:22:53 GMT
[quote author=saints19 board=general thread=76 post=1389 time=1280844024 Only 100,000 people? Firstly, 'only' 100,000? Very few Premier League matches surpass that over two games. Liverpool v Man Untied, Man United v Man City, and now Arsenal v either of those tems probably would. Chelsea's ground holds less than 50,000, so too White Hart Lane. Secondly, the Old Firm play each other four times a year, with crowds ranging between 50,000 to 55,000. That's at least 200,000 overall. [/quote]
You seem to think that the numbers who go thru the turnstile is the be all and end all. The 100,000 go to the Old Firm's games care...rabidly so, but other than a few others in Scotland and in Ireland, few other people take notice. Less than 50,000 go to a Chelsea game but how many watch live around the world, and paying a king's ransom to do so. I contend, once again, that it is this factor which separates those clubs who will have the finance to compete at the business end of important competitions, and those like Celtic and Rangers.
Incidentally, to cite playing in the Emirates Cup as an example of Celtic's global exposure made me chuckle. The more you go on about the Old Firm the more I worry for them
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Post by llannerch on Aug 3, 2010 17:27:22 GMT
You're twisting my words. I said that about Newcastle if you recall, that they had bounced back immediately from relegation. What I meant was to show that clubs with big fan bases generally tend to have good teams over the medium to long-term even if they have poor ones in the short term. No I'm not and no you didn't. Reply #9 in this thread, your words: "Irrespective of how well or badly Celtic do this season, at some point they will have a decent team, though. Their fan base is too big for them to sink too low for too long."
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Post by saints19 on Aug 3, 2010 21:25:25 GMT
You're twisting my words. I said that about Newcastle if you recall, that they had bounced back immediately from relegation. What I meant was to show that clubs with big fan bases generally tend to have good teams over the medium to long-term even if they have poor ones in the short term. No I'm not and no you didn't. Reply #9 in this thread, your words: "Irrespective of how well or badly Celtic do this season, at some point they will have a decent team, though. Their fan base is too big for them to sink too low for too long." Let me just clarify what's going on here. You appeared to have (and if I'm misinterpreting you here, feel free to correct me) characterised my stance on Celtic as being that investors would be attracted by the fact that "we'd never get relegated and if we did we'd bounce back". I said nothing about relegation, except using Newcastle as an example of a club with a similar fan base to Celtic which had had a poor season, but which, due to their well-paid squad, funded mostly by their gate takings, had won the Championship next season. My argument, simply put, is that Celtic's widespread support and reputation is sufficiently large that at some point they are likely to sign some decent players, or get a good manager, and get their players playing well. Celtic have a large, multinational fan base, including a large ethnic Irish and Scottish support that stretches pretty much throughout the English-speaking world, particularly in the republic of Ireland. That is an indisputable fact and it is my view that at some point they are likely to get their act together. I never argued that Celtic and Rangers were likely to compete with the Premiership clubs, or the top 2/3 in La Liga, as you seem to be suggesting: "I contend, once again, that it is this factor [the large amount of global TV interest] which separates those clubs who will have the finance to compete at the business end of important competitions, and those like Celtic and Rangers." To be clear, I am not suggesting that Celtic and Rangers are likely to win the Champions' League or Europa League, although you never know, like Porto in 2003 you've got to be in it to win it, and Stoke definitely aren't going to be in it anytime soon. Incidentally, I only cited the Emirates Cup as an example of Celtic's broad appeal. Considering the other teams playing it (such as Arsenal and Lyon) I think it is a fair point.
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Post by saints19 on Aug 3, 2010 21:29:09 GMT
You're twisting my words. I said that about Newcastle if you recall, that they had bounced back immediately from relegation. What I meant was to show that clubs with big fan bases generally tend to have good teams over the medium to long-term even if they have poor ones in the short term. I reckon Celtic will qualify for the group stage of the Champions' League at least twice in Ledley's 4 year contract, and the group stage of the Europa League in the years they don't. That's good experience for Ledley. Wikipedia reports that the Old Firm earn about £4.5m p/a from their current TV rights deal with ESPN and Sky. This is obviously modest compared to the Premier League clubs' deal, however, the Old Firm still do pretty well in terms of overall revenue. In the Forbes lists, they regularly outgun clubs like Aston Villa. Generally, their revenue is equivalent to at least that of a top 8 Premiership club, and against teams from other European leagues stacks up pretty well. Figures again according to Wikipedia. Only 100,000 people? Firstly, 'only' 100,000? Very few Premier League matches surpass that over two games. Liverpool v Man Untied, Man United v Man City, and now Arsenal v either of those tems probably would. Chelsea's ground holds less than 50,000, so too White Hart Lane. Secondly, the Old Firm play each other four times a year, with crowds ranging between 50,000 to 55,000. That's at least 200,000 overall. I reckon Ledley has weighed up his options and made a decent call. The standard of football he'll play domestically won't be as high as in the Premiership, but he'll get chances to compete at a much higher level than if he had signed for Stoke. Personally I dont believe that he will be playing enough quality consistently than if he had signed for Stoke. 6 Champions league games in one season wont turn him into a world beater overnight- he will have to qualify for the group stages at least twice for there to be any merit in a move to Scotland as opposed to Stoke. I admit there is also the Europa league, but I think it far better to play in a stable mid table side in one of the top 4 leagues in the world than play for one of the top two in a minor league where Champions league football isnt even guaranteed. That is assuming he got in the first XI at Stoke, there would be no guarantee of that. At least he is a shoe-in at Celtic, which is an indicator of how poor Celtic have become as being honest I think he would have started out as a squad player during Martin O'Neills time there. Take your point and I agree the Premiership is a better league but he won't be able to gain as much experience of playing against different styles of football as he would with a decent European run. The Premiership is pretty one-dimensional, and many of us here have applauded Tosh for trying to bring a different style to 'traditional British' to our team, so it is a little surprising that there is so much negativity when one of our national team players tries to move to a club which will offer something different.
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Post by Tim P on Aug 3, 2010 21:48:55 GMT
for me, the only conceivable benefit of moving to Celtic is that it could 'make a man' of him. regardless of the league's quality, he will be expected to win every single domestic game - not all players can handle that. i want to see him grow as a leader - he could be one of the sub-bosses underneath ramsey. although, i feel that chris gunter is probably the true sub-boss, he has a bit of the gary neville about him.
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Post by flynnfan on Aug 4, 2010 16:56:33 GMT
Yep- Gunter is our Neviller- Right back, came through at the club he supported as a boy, old head on young shoulders, hardly ever scores goals... have to say I find Gunter a lot less annoying though!
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Post by Tim P on Aug 4, 2010 19:16:23 GMT
i think he has that kind of Union-leader quality about him - he speaks his mind and is ready to make others toe the line. his somewhat 'challenging' comments about people pulling out of friendlies springs to mind. very much a player to be encouraged into a leadership role.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2010 23:12:22 GMT
Surprise surprise, Celtic out at the first hurdle. The BBC match report even states that on tonights evidence Celtic wont be back in the CL group stages for a while.
Celtic fans meanwhile saw Ledleys performance as a positive so it seems like he is pulling his weight at least.
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