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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 24, 2023 20:14:29 GMT
I think people are getting carried away with this "Davies isn't a left back" stuff, he was a Premier League left back for years, he's more than good enough to play there at international level Left centre back may be his best position, but it is a niche position that limits how we can play. I can understand changing shape to get the very best out of an exceptional attacker, but should we really limit ourselves to get the best out of Ben Davies? I'm not so sure I think a back 4 with Ampadu sitting in front of them is the way to go in Croatia, if we play the way we did in the World Cup then we'll get ripped apart in midfield 100% agree. Davies may not be a good enough left back for a top 6 club, but for us he's more than capable Our wingback system was brutally exposed at the WC, and the blueprint of how to beat it is out there. If we don't change it because Davies is a bit better at LCB than LB then we will be found out again |
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Post by iot on Feb 24, 2023 20:51:59 GMT
I disagree with your assessment of what got exposed during the WC. No idea how you can say it was the wing-back system, when we were actually much poorer when we played a back 4. But it's just not as simple as pinning it on the back 4 vs back 5 - we can play a three-man midfield with a back 4 or a back 5, as we've often done recently. The main thing that left us exposed during the WC is the distances between Ampadu and the more advanced midfielders. Correct that, and we're a very different proposition. So again, it's hardly a case of the blueprint being out there on how to beat us. I mean, we could say the same for when we were well beaten playing with a back 4 in the second half against Iran, or in the England game couldn't we?
We wouldn't be sticking to a back 5 because 'Davies is a bit better at LCB) - a) he's a lot better there and b) it also suits all our other players, and c) I think it gives us the best hope against technically superior sides.
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Post by surge on Feb 24, 2023 20:59:09 GMT
Don't think it was the system, more that we didn't have the CM's needed to play Ampadu as RCB which had knock on effect all over the pitch. We became that much more predictable and, combined with our other issues, much easier to play against.
Davis is a better LCB but played LWB the other day for Spurs and got PotG (MotM in old money) and historically he's been used as LB against Croatia. Once RND is back up to speed, I would like to try Ben Davies as LCB in a four as that may be his longer term position for us.
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Post by rushy on Feb 24, 2023 21:02:37 GMT
Ben Davies is our best defender and the fact he can adapt from LB to LWB and LCB should tell you how important he is to club and country , the one area where he is susceptible as LB is up against a pacey wide man , but if Wilson or James doubles up with him in those situations then problem solved.
I would also play Amps CM in front of the CB's , he looks made for that position imo, far more comfortable than at CB .
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 24, 2023 23:41:32 GMT
100% agree. Davies may not be a good enough left back for a top 6 club, but for us he's more than capable Our wingback system was brutally exposed at the WC, and the blueprint of how to beat it is out there. If we don't change it because Davies is a bit better at LCB than LB then we will be found out again I disagree with your assessment of what got exposed during the WC. No idea how you can say it was the wing-back system, when we were actually much poorer when we played a back 4. But it's just not as simple as pinning it on the back 4 vs back 5 - we can play a three-man midfield with a back 4 or a back 5, as we've often done recently. The main thing that left us exposed during the WC is the distances between Ampadu and the more advanced midfielders. Correct that, and we're a very different proposition. So again, it's hardly a case of the blueprint being out there on how to beat us. I mean, we could say the same for when we were well beaten playing with a back 4 in the second half against Iran, or in the England game couldn't we? We wouldn't be sticking to a back 5 because 'Davies is a bit better at LCB) - a) he's a lot better there and b) it also suits all our other players, and c) I think it gives us the best hope against technically superior sides. Yeah on the defensive side I agree the issue was personnel for the most part. However, I don't think it's a case of putting Morrell in there and all the problems being fixed We *really* struggled in attack, and easily got pinned in for our build up play on our left hand side. That was because Neco was playing an inverted wingback with the tendancy of coming inside. Once teams figured out pressing him to come inside under towards their midfielders was a good way of dispossessing him or forcing us backwards, that prevented us from building anything down the left How do we solve this if we continue with a back 5 in your view? Our options there consist of Neco, Sorba, Burns (all inverted), RND (injured), & Davies who you have suggested should be LCB. I'm all for exploring options such as Declan John to find an orthodox LB/LWB alternative to RND, but I'm sure we'd both agree Croatia comes too soon for that. So that leaves us stuck with Neco Now perhaps you think my analysis is wrong about Neco, or you disagree that we should be looking for someone else to play LWB. But whatever criticism you can levy at Davies for not being good enough for Spurs at LB, you can also levy them to a greater extent at Neco playing LB/LWB for Forest. Davies at least had years of playing LB in the Premier League, Neco has been tried there but Cooper ditched that experiment quick sharp Ultimately to me the fact is Neco is more out of position at LWB than Davies is at LB, and for that reason with no viable alternatives, a back 4 is the better move and therefore Davies at LB is the way to go |
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Post by talyfan on Feb 26, 2023 9:09:05 GMT
Never a fan of inverted fullbacks. Think you lose that outlet in wide areas able to cross when balls are played infront of them. Receiving the ball with their first foot on the half turn so they have to take an extra touch, balls generally played back inside where its crowded etc.
I would rather us play natural left footed player at left back/left wing back than a shoehorned Neco if push comes to shove we've tried it enough in my opinion it works to an extent but it could be better.
Edit: sorry meant right footed left backs not inverted!!
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Post by rushy on Feb 26, 2023 9:56:43 GMT
Never a fan of inverted fullbacks. Think you lose that outlet in wide areas able to cross when balls are played infront of them. Receiving the ball with their first foot on the half turn so they have to take an extra touch, balls generally played back inside where its crowded etc. I would rather us play natural left footed player at left back/left wing back than a shoehorned Neco if push comes to shove we've tried it enough in my opinion it works to an extent but it could be better. For me it's about the balance it brings to a system when you play a natural left or right sided FB/WB, further more there are far too many one footed players nowadays who simply refuse to use their weaker foot, Wilson springs to mind as an example, WTH do they do in training every day ? |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 27, 2023 11:02:27 GMT
Assuming we start with 2 wingers, and Brennan is one of them, who are we thinking starts on the other side?
James not playing at all, Wilson coming off the bench, Cooper more of a 10, Broadhead the next regular starting winger we've got I think?
Maybe that means Wilson to start, as at least he's getting some minutes at a top flight level?
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Post by talyfan on Feb 27, 2023 11:57:40 GMT
Only other wingers playing regularly at a decent-ish level are
Sorba Thomas
Ryan Hedges - although seems to have been demoted to the bench recently
Aaron Collins
I would assume it'll likely be James or Wilson
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Post by iot on Feb 27, 2023 12:23:02 GMT
I disagree with your assessment of what got exposed during the WC. No idea how you can say it was the wing-back system, when we were actually much poorer when we played a back 4. But it's just not as simple as pinning it on the back 4 vs back 5 - we can play a three-man midfield with a back 4 or a back 5, as we've often done recently. The main thing that left us exposed during the WC is the distances between Ampadu and the more advanced midfielders. Correct that, and we're a very different proposition. So again, it's hardly a case of the blueprint being out there on how to beat us. I mean, we could say the same for when we were well beaten playing with a back 4 in the second half against Iran, or in the England game couldn't we? We wouldn't be sticking to a back 5 because 'Davies is a bit better at LCB) - a) he's a lot better there and b) it also suits all our other players, and c) I think it gives us the best hope against technically superior sides. Yeah on the defensive side I agree the issue was personnel for the most part. However, I don't think it's a case of putting Morrell in there and all the problems being fixed We *really* struggled in attack, and easily got pinned in for our build up play on our left hand side. That was because Neco was playing an inverted wingback with the tendancy of coming inside. Once teams figured out pressing him to come inside under towards their midfielders was a good way of dispossessing him or forcing us backwards, that prevented us from building anything down the left How do we solve this if we continue with a back 5 in your view? Our options there consist of Neco, Sorba, Burns (all inverted), RND (injured), & Davies who you have suggested should be LCB. I'm all for exploring options such as Declan John to find an orthodox LB/LWB alternative to RND, but I'm sure we'd both agree Croatia comes too soon for that. So that leaves us stuck with Neco Now perhaps you think my analysis is wrong about Neco, or you disagree that we should be looking for someone else to play LWB. But whatever criticism you can levy at Davies for not being good enough for Spurs at LB, you can also levy them to a greater extent at Neco playing LB/LWB for Forest. Davies at least had years of playing LB in the Premier League, Neco has been tried there but Cooper ditched that experiment quick sharp Ultimately to me the fact is Neco is more out of position at LWB than Davies is at LB, and for that reason with no viable alternatives, a back 4 is the better move and therefore Davies at LB is the way to go 'We *really* struggled in attack, and easily got pinned in for our build up play on our left hand side. That was because Neco was playing an inverted wingback with the tendancy of coming inside.' That's not how I see it at all. In fact, this is the first time I've heard anyone saying that Neco at LWB was a key factor in what went wrong during the world cup. When I was thinking about how everyone had played around the time (a low bar, I know) Neco was actually in my top 5 performers! We were far more effective on his side than on the right, where Connor Roberts did have a proper stinker of a tournament. 'Davies at least had years of playing LB in the Premier League, Neco has been tried there but Cooper ditched that experiment quick sharp' Having watched Forest quite a bit, I can tell you that Neco still plays on the left quite often - he's played at left mid a couple of times in recent weeks which is probably closer to lwb than playing as a full back. So yes, I would stick with Neco at LWB. He showed how dynamic he can be there during the qualifiers where I thought he was outstanding. |
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Post by iot on Feb 27, 2023 12:25:36 GMT
Assuming we start with 2 wingers, and Brennan is one of them, who are we thinking starts on the other side? James not playing at all, Wilson coming off the bench, Cooper more of a 10, Broadhead the next regular starting winger we've got I think? Maybe that means Wilson to start, as at least he's getting some minutes at a top flight level? Another reason for the 532 formation imo - it gives us three in midfield, three at the back, wing backs to provide width, and two split-forwards in Brennan and Moore. |
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Post by dai on Feb 27, 2023 12:49:33 GMT
5-3-2 / 3-5-2 or whatever has left us exposed nearly every single time we've played a decent team. Croatia will rip us apart if we play the same formation with teh same game plan again.
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Post by iot on Feb 27, 2023 13:06:40 GMT
5-3-2 / 3-5-2 or whatever has left us exposed nearly every single time we've played a decent team. Croatia will rip us apart if we play the same formation with teh same game plan again. I don't think that's the case. The fact is we've been exposed almost every time we've played a decent team full stop, and that's been with a back 5 and a back 4. It was a back 4 formation that saw us crumble to England and in the second half of the Iran game. The back 5 saw us draw with the US and with Iran until we switched to the back 4 (admittedly both were still poor performances). We've used a back 5 in all our better performances against good opposition - the two recent Belgium games, the game in Prague, I would argue the games against the Dutch, and stretching back to the Euro 16 performances. We used a back 4 for most of the Euro 2020 campaign and tournament - we played well against Turkey with it admittedly, but were completely outplayed by the Swiss, Italy, and Denmark. Croatia will likely rip us apart no matter how we lineup - they have a far superior side after all, but I think a 532 gives us the best hope of nicking something. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 27, 2023 15:44:10 GMT
Assuming we start with 2 wingers, and Brennan is one of them, who are we thinking starts on the other side? James not playing at all, Wilson coming off the bench, Cooper more of a 10, Broadhead the next regular starting winger we've got I think? Maybe that means Wilson to start, as at least he's getting some minutes at a top flight level? Another reason for the 532 formation imo - it gives us three in midfield, three at the back, wing backs to provide width, and two split-forwards in Brennan and Moore. How do you solve the LWB conundrum? Only viable way of doing it imo is to call up someone like Morgan Fox or Ed Turns to allow Ben Davies to play LWB. I think I'd prefer to start Wilson as a winger in a 4-2-3-1 than to do that |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Feb 27, 2023 15:46:08 GMT
5-3-2 / 3-5-2 or whatever has left us exposed nearly every single time we've played a decent team. Croatia will rip us apart if we play the same formation with teh same game plan again. I don't think that's the case. The fact is we've been exposed almost every time we've played a decent team full stop, and that's been with a back 5 and a back 4. It was a back 4 formation that saw us crumble to England and in the second half of the Iran game. The back 5 saw us draw with the US and with Iran until we switched to the back 4 (admittedly both were still poor performances). We've used a back 5 in all our better performances against good opposition - the two recent Belgium games, the game in Prague, I would argue the games against the Dutch, and stretching back to the Euro 16 performances. We used a back 4 for most of the Euro 2020 campaign and tournament - we played well against Turkey with it admittedly, but were completely outplayed by the Swiss, Italy, and Denmark. Croatia will likely rip us apart no matter how we lineup - they have a far superior side after all, but I think a 532 gives us the best hope of nicking something. Back 4 with Bale in the side and several unfit players wasn't do-able. Back 5 patched that up but still wasn't good Back 4 with fit regular players starting is the way to go imo |
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Post by iot on Feb 27, 2023 16:37:19 GMT
Another reason for the 532 formation imo - it gives us three in midfield, three at the back, wing backs to provide width, and two split-forwards in Brennan and Moore. How do you solve the LWB conundrum? Only viable way of doing it imo is to call up someone like Morgan Fox or Ed Turns to allow Ben Davies to play LWB. I think I'd prefer to start Wilson as a winger in a 4-2-3-1 than to do that Answered that in the previous comment - I think Neco's been great for us there, and completely disagree that it was a significant reason for our poor performances at the world cup. |
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Post by iot on Feb 27, 2023 16:44:26 GMT
I don't think that's the case. The fact is we've been exposed almost every time we've played a decent team full stop, and that's been with a back 5 and a back 4. It was a back 4 formation that saw us crumble to England and in the second half of the Iran game. The back 5 saw us draw with the US and with Iran until we switched to the back 4 (admittedly both were still poor performances). We've used a back 5 in all our better performances against good opposition - the two recent Belgium games, the game in Prague, I would argue the games against the Dutch, and stretching back to the Euro 16 performances. We used a back 4 for most of the Euro 2020 campaign and tournament - we played well against Turkey with it admittedly, but were completely outplayed by the Swiss, Italy, and Denmark. Croatia will likely rip us apart no matter how we lineup - they have a far superior side after all, but I think a 532 gives us the best hope of nicking something. Back 4 with Bale in the side and several unfit players wasn't do-able. Back 5 patched that up but still wasn't good Back 4 with fit regular players starting is the way to go imo Respectfully disagree  An unfit Bale and several other players were just as limiting in our back 5 as they were in our back 4 system. I think there is a good chance that we'll go with a back 4. A back 5 would be my preference on balance, but I wouldn't mind starting a 433 type formation. The one thing I don't agree on however is this sentiment that the reason for the poor world cup was the back 5 system getting found out, which ignores the fact we played with a back 4 for the most disastrous parts of it and, imo, ignores the main reasons for our poor performances. |
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Post by cadno on Feb 27, 2023 21:33:46 GMT
After thinking about it a bit I’d go for this kind of team, Ampadu as a sort of sweeper can drop in alongside the defence to make a back 5
Hennessey
Connor Lockyer Mepham Davies
Ampadu
Rambo Morrell
Brennan Moore Cooper
Bradshaw, Mullin, DJ, Wilson, T Lawrence, Joniesta and others as options from the bench
Hennessey
Lockyer Ampadu Mepham
Connor Rambo Morrell Davies
Brennan Moore Cooper
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Post by vvm on Feb 28, 2023 9:45:22 GMT
I don't hate that lineup, especially with Ampadu floating between midfield and defence. Could see it happening but more likely with James or Wilson in for Cooper.
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Post by fiveattheback on Feb 28, 2023 10:37:57 GMT
James in for Cooper and I'd be pretty happy with that
Huge ask for someone's first international to be away to Croatia
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Post by talyfan on Feb 28, 2023 11:38:12 GMT
I never know the apprehension to start players in bigger games even if it is there first match.
It's not as if Dan James or Harry Wilson have been pulling up trees recently for us or Fulham nor has Ollie Cooper to be fair.
Think you'd get the same outcome if you started either of these 3 at the moment. Which does lead to why change things? So in that line of thinking James likely starts anyway but if there were better players emerging he'd be dropped in my opinion.
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Post by CrackityJones on Mar 6, 2023 12:40:00 GMT
Blimey:
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Post by iot on Mar 6, 2023 13:08:14 GMT
I've watched a few Rennes games this season because of Rodon and Majer, who plays for them, is another great player!
If this game were decided on paper, we would lose it by 2 or 3 goals. Their midfield is one of the best in the world so they will get about 70% of possession, but they're not brilliant up front and will probably play 35 or 36yo Vida alongside Gvardiol at the back. We just need to hope they have an off day and Brennan can nick a goal for us by targeting Vida
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Post by allezlesrouges on Mar 6, 2023 17:50:57 GMT
Defend defend defend and hope either Brennan nicks a goal or we nick a set piece
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Post by jimexotic on Mar 6, 2023 18:03:25 GMT
I'm really worried that they'll run rings around our midfield, score fairly early on and then wear us down and beat us 3 or 4-0. We can't be wasteful in possession.
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Post by talyfan on Mar 6, 2023 18:05:34 GMT
Pray and hope for the best
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Post by jimexotic on Mar 6, 2023 18:57:58 GMT
I keep trying to tell myself that central midfield will be alright but this is probably the worst team in the World to play right now with that worry in the back of my mind because if ever a team could expose our shortcomings in that area of the field it's Croatia with Modric, the best central midfielder in the World for ten years or so now.
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Post by manulike on Mar 6, 2023 19:05:27 GMT
ANY OF THESE GUYS ANY GOOD?
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Post by cynonvalley on Mar 6, 2023 19:36:30 GMT
YES
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Post by fiveattheback on Mar 6, 2023 20:56:12 GMT
Jonny will make light work of them
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An unfit Bale and several other players were just as limiting in our back 5 as they were in our back 4 system. 
