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[saints19]

Nov 24, 2010 21:28:45 GMT cardibach said:

I honestly don't know why anyone can count lack of managerial experience as a reason not to appoint an individual to the Wales job.

Mark Hughes had absolutely zero managerial experience, he did ok with Wales, didn't he?

On the other hand, Bobby Gould had managed at the highest level for years, won the FA Cup, etc. All his experience didn't do him much good though, did it?

Two contrasting examples I couldn't argue with - and yet it stands to reason that a manager who has proven himself in management will be more likely to do a better job than a total newbie.

It's pretty rare that top clubs and international sides appoint complete novices. Two notable exceptions in recent years would be Klinsmann for Germany, and Guardiola for Barcelona. That's all I can think of off the top of my head. They have both been successful, but on the flipside you have guys like Staunton who managed Ireland and didn't really do his playing reputation justice as a manager.

A Giggs appointment, in my view, would be quite similar to the Staunton appointment. Both quiet guys, both hugely successful as players and both national legends, but also neither really strikes me as being a natural manager.

At the very least, it's a huge gamble, moreso even than taking Flynn on permanently. We reportedly have a very good manager who has taken Sweden to five successive tournaments interested in the job. For once, can we do the common-sense thing as a country?

[Deleted]

Hughes had fire in his belly, you wouldnt muck around under his watch. Hughes was also, crucially, his own man. Giggs has spent his entire career hiding behind Fergusons skirt. He is nothing but a yes man. The only reason for hiring him is if he acts as a sock puppet for Fergie to manage us behind the scenes. Lets be fair, he wont be scouting any of our players as he will be constantly on the phone to Old Trafford asking Fergie to hold his hand.

And look at the likes of Ferguson and Mourinho for an example of how poor players become great managers, how often does it work the other way around? Not often.

Also, how many of the best managers have a personality as meek as that of Giggs? Hes got all the presence of a wet towel.

[Deleted]

Nov 25, 2010 5:07:53 GMT @storm said:

Hughes had fire in his belly, you wouldnt muck around under his watch. Hughes was also, crucially, his own man. Giggs has spent his entire career hiding behind Fergusons skirt. He is nothing but a yes man. The only reason for hiring him is if he acts as a sock puppet for Fergie to manage us behind the scenes. Lets be fair, he wont be scouting any of our players as he will be constantly on the phone to Old Trafford asking Fergie to hold his hand.

And look at the likes of Ferguson and Mourinho for an example of how poor players become great managers, how often does it work the other way around? Not often.

Also, how many of the best managers have a personality as meek as that of Giggs? Hes got all the presence of a wet towel.

That must be the reason why he's only managed to play for Man Utd just over 850 times then.

[youngdragon]

it has to be a no to giggs simply becuase there are much better candidates

[Deleted]

Nov 25, 2010 9:26:20 GMT @baresi said:

Nov 25, 2010 5:07:53 GMT @storm said:

Hughes had fire in his belly, you wouldnt muck around under his watch. Hughes was also, crucially, his own man. Giggs has spent his entire career hiding behind Fergusons skirt. He is nothing but a yes man. The only reason for hiring him is if he acts as a sock puppet for Fergie to manage us behind the scenes. Lets be fair, he wont be scouting any of our players as he will be constantly on the phone to Old Trafford asking Fergie to hold his hand.

And look at the likes of Ferguson and Mourinho for an example of how poor players become great managers, how often does it work the other way around? Not often.

Also, how many of the best managers have a personality as meek as that of Giggs? Hes got all the presence of a wet towel.

That must be the reason why he's only managed to play for Man Utd just over 850 times then.

So you think he would still have played 850 times if he had demanded to be allowed to play for Wales more often? A hilarious thought and one of the reasons why he should be allowed nowhere near the Wales job.

Its because of his lack of personality and ability to think for himself that he has lasted so long there. Giggs and Scholes were both yes men, it got them far in terms of club appearances but I guarantee you it will not make them good managers.

Giggs traded Wales caps for his insatiable thirst for premiership medals, if thats alright by you then fair play.

[cilmeri]

A meek man with insatiable thirst. Interesting.

Not sure if it's a lack of personality. Without drive, determenation and personality you'd be swamped at a club like Man U with Rooney, Ronaldo etc. completelly overwhelming you.

Agreed we can question his determination to play for Wales, however I wouldn't question his presence and drive and mental strength in general.

As for Fergiew being a poor player - he did play for Rangers didn't he? He wasn't a bad player (not like Mourinho and Wenger for example)

[cilmeri]

Nov 25, 2010 5:07:53 GMT @storm said:

And look at the likes of Ferguson and Mourinho for an example of how poor players become great managers, how often does it work the other way around? Not often.

Let's look at the top of the premiership, in order;

Ancellotti - pretty good player
Fergie - He was ok
Wenger - not too good
Mancini - Pretty decent
Coyle - unsure - played for Bolton didn't he?
Redknapp - no idea
Bruce - Best CB never to play for England?

So you've got a sweeping statement that doesn't really bear true. What you can say though is that being a top manager requires different skills to being a top player, and a person may have the skills to do both, but not neccesarilly so.

[georgetm1]

What about Southall, Rush, Lineker, Shearer, Boniek, Platini, Figo, Zidane. Half of them didn't get involved with coaching because they knew they would be wank or if they did and they were rubbish. It will happen with Giggs because the media are hyping him up to be some kind of messiah, and he will be bloody awful. Why not start him off with a youth team if they are that desperate, not the bloody senior team. Or maybe he should get the job on merit as a coach not just handed the job on a platter.

[cilmeri]

Nov 25, 2010 11:15:43 GMT georgetm1 said:

What about Southall, Rush, Lineker, Shearer, Boniek, Platini, Figo, Zidane. Half of them didn't get involved with coaching because they knew they would be wank or if they did and they were rubbish. It will happen with Giggs because the media are hyping him up to be some kind of messiah, and he will be bloody awful. Why not start him off with a youth team if they are that desperate, not the bloody senior team. Or maybe he should get the job on merit as a coach not just handed the job on a platter.

Beckenbauer didn't do too bad a job though.....and I suspect that Giggs will look at Rush starting with the youths and might not see that as the way to the top.

I suspect if Giggs goes into coaching he'll do like Solskjaer and he'll get a job with the kids at Man U. But there is a general problem now that to get a big job you need to really get it straight from playing - look at how many premiership managers have been recruited from the lower leagues. David Moyes from Preston, but I can't think of any others (unless they got promoted with the team). Really Dave Jones should be linked with premiership jobs, but you know if Grant gets the sack they'll go for a big name. Di Canio seems to be bandied about, which is ridiculous.

[Deleted]

Nov 25, 2010 11:51:33 GMT cilmeri said:

Nov 25, 2010 11:15:43 GMT georgetm1 said:

What about Southall, Rush, Lineker, Shearer, Boniek, Platini, Figo, Zidane. Half of them didn't get involved with coaching because they knew they would be wank or if they did and they were rubbish. It will happen with Giggs because the media are hyping him up to be some kind of messiah, and he will be bloody awful. Why not start him off with a youth team if they are that desperate, not the bloody senior team. Or maybe he should get the job on merit as a coach not just handed the job on a platter.

Beckenbauer didn't do too bad a job though.....and I suspect that Giggs will look at Rush starting with the youths and might not see that as the way to the top.

I suspect if Giggs goes into coaching he'll do like Solskjaer and he'll get a job with the kids at Man U. But there is a general problem now that to get a big job you need to really get it straight from playing - look at how many premiership managers have been recruited from the lower leagues. David Moyes from Preston, but I can't think of any others (unless they got promoted with the team). Really Dave Jones should be linked with premiership jobs, but you know if Grant gets the sack they'll go for a big name. Di Canio seems to be bandied about, which is ridiculous.

As ridiculous as Giggs being given the Wales job- no merit in it whatsoever. Let him make his mistakes elsewhere first and actually prove himself worthy of managing us.

[caradocevans]

Nov 25, 2010 10:04:09 GMT @storm said:

Nov 25, 2010 9:26:20 GMT @baresi said:

That must be the reason why he's only managed to play for Man Utd just over 850 times then.

So you think he would still have played 850 times if he had demanded to be allowed to play for Wales more often? A hilarious thought and one of the reasons why he should be allowed nowhere near the Wales job.

Its because of his lack of personality and ability to think for himself that he has lasted so long there. Giggs and Scholes were both yes men, it got them far in terms of club appearances but I guarantee you it will not make them good managers.

Giggs traded Wales caps for his insatiable thirst for premiership medals, if thats alright by you then fair play.

There is absolutely no evidence that Giggs is "meek". That's just an assumption on your part. I haven't got a problem with him having missed friendlies whatsoever. The Prem/Euro matches that he started instead were of a higher quality and of more significance. He had absolutely nothing to prove for Wales in friendly matches.

How can you "guarantee" that Giggs would not make a good manager?

If Fergie and Wenger were in charge of Wales we would still struggle to qualify. Given the low esteem in which the Welsh National football team are currently held by the public Giggs as manager would be a major boost. One that we simply won't get from Chris Coleman, Ian Rush or Lawrie Sanchez.

[saints19]

I would personally take the view that turning up for friendlies (if you are fit and your club has no upcoming games of such stature as to demand you miss the friendly) is an important part of an international's commitment to his country.

Everyone expects people to miss some games - that's inevitable. But top Wales players like Speed, Bellamy and Hartson haven't missed anything like the volume of friendlies that Giggs did.

[Deleted]

Nov 29, 2010 10:43:18 GMT caradocevans said:

Nov 25, 2010 10:04:09 GMT @storm said:

So you think he would still have played 850 times if he had demanded to be allowed to play for Wales more often? A hilarious thought and one of the reasons why he should be allowed nowhere near the Wales job.

Its because of his lack of personality and ability to think for himself that he has lasted so long there. Giggs and Scholes were both yes men, it got them far in terms of club appearances but I guarantee you it will not make them good managers.

Giggs traded Wales caps for his insatiable thirst for premiership medals, if thats alright by you then fair play.

There is absolutely no evidence that Giggs is "meek". That's just an assumption on your part. I haven't got a problem with him having missed friendlies whatsoever. The Prem/Euro matches that he started instead were of a higher quality and of more significance. He had absolutely nothing to prove for Wales in friendly matches.

How can you "guarantee" that Giggs would not make a good manager?

If Fergie and Wenger were in charge of Wales we would still struggle to qualify. Given the low esteem in which the Welsh National football team are currently held by the public Giggs as manager would be a major boost. One that we simply won't get from Chris Coleman, Ian Rush or Lawrie Sanchez.

The best boost Welsh football could have is by the national team actually winning matches and are you honestly going to try and tell me that Giggs (who has no managerial experience whatsoever ) is more likely to win matches than Sanchez who was in a similar situation with Northern Ireland and took them from the 100s to the top 30 in the world?

Appointing Giggs would be an absolute punt in the dark at a time when we cant afford to take such risks for fear that we will finally disappear down the arsehole of the rankings.

And when I say meek I mean he comes across as such a bland and insipid character that he doesnt appear to have the steel and determination that even crap managers tend to have. Hes been a yes man for 20 years, do you think he will easily transition to being his own man overnight?

The fact that he has shown the Wales job no respect (by allowing Fergie to be his spokesman in the rude manner that he did) should at least rule him out until he can learn to value the opportunity to manage his country.

[caradocevans]

I don't know if Giggs would win more matches than Sanchez but then neither do you. I do think, however, that with Giggs at the helm it would generate a lot more interest in the fortunes of the Welsh football team amongst the footballing public and the media than if Sanchez et al were there. It would be perfect from a marketing perspective: bright young manager leading a promising young Welsh team forwards. A couple of wins strung together (something that Flynn and Toshack struggled to do) and he'd be a god.

Giggs may come across as bland and insipid to you but he comes across as polite to me. You have absolutely no evidence that he lacks "steel and determination". I would suggest that if you are still playing football at the highest level at 37 then you probably have quite a bit of both. He would also have the utmost respect from our young players given everything he has achieved in the game.

I don't remember Giggs ever having shown the Wales job no respect, whatever that means. If you mean he didn't turn up for meaningless friendlies - who cares, not me.

If Giggs were available he would be ideal for the job.

[caradocevans]

Nov 29, 2010 22:24:09 GMT saints19 said:

I would personally take the view that turning up for friendlies (if you are fit and your club has no upcoming games of such stature as to demand you miss the friendly) is an important part of an international's commitment to his country.

Really. I think you are being a bit naive there.

[youngdragon]

IMO if your country calls you you turn up
If you're injured the medical team will asses you

Country comes first end of

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2010 13:21:37 GMT caradocevans said:

Nov 29, 2010 22:24:09 GMT saints19 said:

I would personally take the view that turning up for friendlies (if you are fit and your club has no upcoming games of such stature as to demand you miss the friendly) is an important part of an international's commitment to his country.

Really. I think you are being a bit naive there.

So by extension you do not agree with international friendlies? Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, after all.

[saints19]

Well said storm and youngdragon. It is very disappointing that some fans appear to tolerate such a whimsical attitude to the national side.You can't build a winning team with players like that.

[cardibach]

Dec 1, 2010 19:41:42 GMT saints19 said:

Well said storm and youngdragon. It is very disappointing that some fans appear to tolerate such a whimsical attitude to the national side.You can't build a winning team with players like that.

The only trouble is, the players are not like that. Their club pays their wages. As far as the players are concerned, their clubs come first. End of.

Giggs was a prime example. If he was appointed and a leading Wales player didn't turn up for a few friendlies due to "injury", Giggs couldn't really complain as he was exactly the same himself.

[saints19]

Dec 2, 2010 0:36:58 GMT cardibach said:

Dec 1, 2010 19:41:42 GMT saints19 said:

Well said storm and youngdragon. It is very disappointing that some fans appear to tolerate such a whimsical attitude to the national side.You can't build a winning team with players like that.

The only trouble is, the players are not like that. Their club pays their wages. As far as the players are concerned, their clubs come first. End of.

Giggs was a prime example. If he was appointed and a leading Wales player didn't turn up for a few friendlies due to "injury", Giggs couldn't really complain as he was exactly the same himself.

Bale and Bellamy have enjoyed club careers at the top level, but it has not really affected their overall attendance rates.

Giggs is the problem as much as clubs. Remember, clubs need to keep their best players happy too. If a player makes enough of a fuss about turning out for his country, the club will not stand in his way.

[georgetm1]

www.walesonline.co.uk/footballnation/football-news//2010/12/02/ryan-giggs-set-to-reject-wales-job-91466-27752550/?campaign=Wales_email_football:20101202

If this is true. The FAW truly are dumb fucks.

[Deleted]

"The Manchester United and Wales legend has reiterated he wants to carry on his playing days at Old Trafford for at least one more year....and has set his sights on a new contract."

When does enough become enough?

Edit: That whole article is basically about Giggs and his commitment to United. You would never have thought he had anything to do with Wales after reading it.

[Deleted]

Dec 2, 2010 15:17:37 GMT @storm said:

"The Manchester United and Wales legend has reiterated he wants to carry on his playing days at Old Trafford for at least one more year....and has set his sights on a new contract."

When does enough become enough?

Edit: That whole article is basically about Giggs and his commitment to United. You would never have thought he had anything to do with Wales after reading it.

Storm - for once I think I agree with you! I have fluctuated in my thoughts about giggs and wales for some time but enough is enough - we are in desparate need of a lift and in our time of most need giggs just can't be bothered with us. He has achieved everything at club level, he can't be short of money - will always get offers to coach at club level at some point - if any time is right for him to manage wales it is now and he just can't be f**king bothered with us - even with our crop of great kids coming through.

Flynn on the other hand desparately wants it and must be considered but I am starting to think the swedish bloke might be good.

[Deleted]

Dec 2, 2010 16:53:16 GMT @baresi said:

Dec 2, 2010 15:17:37 GMT @storm said:

"The Manchester United and Wales legend has reiterated he wants to carry on his playing days at Old Trafford for at least one more year....and has set his sights on a new contract."

When does enough become enough?

Edit: That whole article is basically about Giggs and his commitment to United. You would never have thought he had anything to do with Wales after reading it.

Storm - for once I think I agree with you! I have fluctuated in my thoughts about giggs and wales for some time but enough is enough - we are in desparate need of a lift and in our time of most need giggs just can't be bothered with us. He has achieved everything at club level, he can't be short of money - will always get offers to coach at club level at some point - if any time is right for him to manage wales it is now and he just can't be f**king bothered with us - even with our crop of great kids coming through.

Flynn on the other hand desparately wants it and must be considered but I am starting to think the swedish bloke might be good.

But wouldnt it be nice to hear it from the horses bloody mouth for a change?!

How about giggs stops speaking through confidantes, calls a press conference or arranges an interview with the Wetern Fail and actually speaks to the nation and tells them his plans and whether he sees himself as a Wales boss and when that might be.

This is what I mean when I talk about lack of respect. He has never been transparent when it comes to Wales. He does all his talking through Fergie (who as we all know is as respectful to Wales as he is to Germans) and through confidantes who leak groundbreaking revelations such as "he still wants to win more medals/contracts at Man United" to the press.

If Giggs wants to be seen as management material surely he has to show that he can manage himself first and foremost without the assistance of others.

Thats precisely why I suspect he is a career yes-man and will not make a good manager. Is he going to hide from the press after Wales matches as well, or send his assistant out to do his press conferences?

[saints19]

storm nails down my views pretty well. A good summary.

[muaythai]

Wales will move above the likes of Suriname, Oman, Syria, Gambia, Guyana and Kuwait if we beat Northern Ireland Tomorrow #just saying

[Baxter Cymru]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS great news

[saints19]

And if we lose?

[Baxter Cymru]

Then we agree to mass suicide

[Deleted]

must win really.