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Post by luke on May 25, 2016 10:01:58 GMT
Tom Bradshaw played in the WPL for Aber. Mark Delaney played in the WPL. It's not realistic to call up any current WPL players but the league can clearly produce future international players. I just hope it has a viable future.
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Post by llan123 on May 25, 2016 10:03:40 GMT
I have been watching the WPL (and before that the LoW) and the standard has got worse rather than better. The very best players in the WPL are Conference/bottom of League two level. If you got anything about you to be included in even a Welsh training squad, chances are a team in those leagues will snap you up.
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Post by llan123 on May 25, 2016 10:07:29 GMT
Tom Bradshaw played in the WPL for Aber. Mark Delaney played in the WPL. It's not realistic to call up any current WPL players but the league can clearly produce future international players. I just hope it has a viable future. He played 4 games for Aber when he was 16, got signed pretty quickly by Shrewsbury because he was head and shoulders above the rest even then! Delaney is testament to how much better the Welsh league was back in the day but his story is a huge exception to the rule. It does have a viable future, I think the league is doing just okay but I can't see it ever being a league that will produce lots of players for the national team. It's always going to struggle for quality without the exiled clubs. |
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Post by luke on May 25, 2016 10:09:14 GMT
Tom Bradshaw played in the WPL for Aber. Mark Delaney played in the WPL. It's not realistic to call up any current WPL players but the league can clearly produce future international players. I just hope it has a viable future. He played 4 games for Aber when he was 16, got signed pretty quickly by Walsall because he was head and shoulders above the rest even then! Delaney is testament to how much better the Welsh league was back in the day but his story is a huge exception to the rule. Yeah as I said, the WPL can produce future international players. |
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Post by alarch on May 25, 2016 10:29:40 GMT
I have been watching the WPL (and before that the LoW) and the standard has got worse rather than better. The very best players in the WPL are Conference/bottom of League two level. If you got anything about you to be included in even a Welsh training squad, chances are a team in those leagues will snap you up. Well, I have to beg to differ. It's certainly true that the standard hasn't improved much, but I think the signs are positive. The fact that WPL sides have been doing better in Europe in recent years is a good litmus test of where things are at - and the standard of pitches is improving all the time. Nothing to get too excited about - but there are signs of better things to come. It's good to hear from Mike Harris that the FAW are playing a significant role in shaping this future - whereas in the past their involvement has been inadequate. |
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Post by llan123 on May 25, 2016 10:38:14 GMT
I have been watching the WPL (and before that the LoW) and the standard has got worse rather than better. The very best players in the WPL are Conference/bottom of League two level. If you got anything about you to be included in even a Welsh training squad, chances are a team in those leagues will snap you up. Well, I have to beg to differ. It's certainly true that the standard hasn't improved much, but I think the signs are positive. The fact that WPL sides have been doing better in Europe in recent years is a good litmus test of where things are at - and the standard of pitches is improving all the time. Nothing to get too excited about - but there are signs of better things to come. It's good to hear from Mike Harris that the FAW are playing a significant role in shaping this future - whereas in the past their involvement has been inadequate. TNS have clean swept the trophies the last two seasons, they may have improved but the league in general hasn't. There's lads I know who were playing parks football a few years ago in their mid 20s but are now playing WPL football. Don't know who you follow but my team have regressed in quality for sure. I don't want to knock the league though, I enjoy watching it but I can't pretend the quality is good. Besides there's probably more Scousers and Mancs playing for gog teams than Welsh players at the moment. |
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Post by llan123 on May 25, 2016 10:40:11 GMT
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Post by rushlegend on May 25, 2016 10:58:18 GMT
He played 4 games for Aber when he was 16, got signed pretty quickly by Walsall
He signed and played for Shrewsbury Town first!
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Post by llan123 on May 25, 2016 12:13:17 GMT
He played 4 games for Aber when he was 16, got signed pretty quickly by Walsall He signed and played for Shrewsbury Town first! Edited ! |
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Post by iot on May 25, 2016 12:37:17 GMT
I have been watching the WPL (and before that the LoW) and the standard has got worse rather than better. The very best players in the WPL are Conference/bottom of League two level. If you got anything about you to be included in even a Welsh training squad, chances are a team in those leagues will snap you up. Well, I have to beg to differ. It's certainly true that the standard hasn't improved much, but I think the signs are positive. The fact that WPL sides have been doing better in Europe in recent years is a good litmus test of where things are at - and the standard of pitches is improving all the time. Nothing to get too excited about - but there are signs of better things to come. It's good to hear from Mike Harris that the FAW are playing a significant role in shaping this future - whereas in the past their involvement has been inadequate. Have to disagree unfortunately, I think the standard has definitely gone down in recent years - probably since the league was reduced to 12. The clubs have become far less sustainable too - there are three or four owned by sugar daddies who dominate and the rest are far behind. Once the sugar daddies lose interest the clubs just collapse as happened with Neath and Llanelli. The clubs with the best support e.g. Rhyl and Bangor are struggling when they should be on the top. TNS is way above all the other sides and only have around 20 fans! |
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Post by biwmares on May 25, 2016 16:45:12 GMT
And all 20 TNS supporters are english .
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Post by mrpicton79 on May 25, 2016 17:01:08 GMT
I think the best players in the WPL are probably at League One level or thereabouts - so why not have a look at them? After all we're already calling up the likes of Tyler Roberts to training camps with no expectation that he'll actually play, why not WPL players once in a while? Tyler Roberts is a highly-rated teenage sensation with (hopefully) a massive future ahead of him. You can't really compare him to the average clogger in the WPL. If anyone playing in that league was genuinely League One standard you'd think they'd be snapped up by a league club pretty quick. They show a bit of it on S4C and it's non-league football I'm afraid, so essentially we're saying 'let's pick non-league players for the national side', it's like going back to the Bobby Gould era. |
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Post by alarch on May 26, 2016 10:37:15 GMT
Tyler Roberts is a highly-rated teenage sensation with (hopefully) a massive future ahead of him. You can't really compare him to the average clogger in the WPL. If anyone playing in that league was genuinely League One standard you'd think they'd be snapped up by a league club pretty quick. They show a bit of it on S4C and it's non-league football I'm afraid, so essentially we're saying 'let's pick non-league players for the national side', it's like going back to the Bobby Gould era. I can't agree with much of this. Who's arguing "let's pick non-league players for the national side" - an obvious nonsense, and a straw soldier argument if ever there was one. The purpose of including the likes of Tyler Roberts in a national training camp would be firstly to appraise his readinesss to step up to first team duties in the rarified environment of the national setup. Secondly, there's a motivational boost angle. The purpose of calling up WPL to the training squad (not the team) would also be for motivational purposes (in the wider WPL playing community as much as anything) and as a way of assessing where the WPL was at over a period of time. At the moment the WPL is perceived a bit like Bertha Rochester in Jane Eyre - the madwoman in the attic, best kept at arms length. There may be far better ways than my suggestion of bringing the WPL into the fold - and the need to bridge the gap between what goes on in the national setup and what happens at WPL level is there for all to see. The move to 3G pitches is an important step in the right direction - and perhaps we need to be more patient in waiting for the effects to filter through. But doing the WPL down doesn't help matters at all. It needs a helping hand not trashing. |
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Post by mrpicton79 on May 26, 2016 18:16:15 GMT
I can't agree with much of this. Who's arguing "let's pick non-league players for the national side" - an obvious nonsense, and a straw soldier argument if ever there was one. Slight overreaction. I wasn't trashing the WPL, was just pointing out the reality of the standard being equivalent to non-league football, just as you'd expect it to be. Our domestic league is unique in that our best & biggest 6 clubs don't participate in it, I'm doubtful there's another domestic league in the world where that is the case. If you look at the Irish domestic league it appears to be considerably stronger than ours, yet to my knowledge no players from that league have ever been called up to the national squad. I don't hate the idea of inviting a few WPL players to train with the national set-up occasionally, but people will always question why somebody higher up the footballing ladder wasn't given the opportunity ahead of them. |
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Post by saints19 on May 28, 2016 15:11:14 GMT
I can't agree with those who say the league has become worse. The performances in Europe - the main measure of this - have unquestionably improved in recent seasons. Look at the numbers of teams progressing through at least one round in Europe. Normally there's at least one, though to some extent this has to do with restructuring on the format (but not entirely). Also the standard in smaller European leagues generally is improving, so this is not to be sniffed at even when it's a Maltese or Luxembourg team who are the opposition. The Maltese team Newtown knocked out last year were professional; most teams in European competition on a regular basis are these days. There may be some nostalgia at play here.
Of course you can point to players like Delaney or teams like Barry Town - Barry Town for a period were probably playing at a standard equal to League Two or even League One level, but this was for a brief period at a point they were paying blatantly unsustainable wages. TNS are a sustainable full time team, clearly in it for the long haul, and Mike Harris, eccentric though he is, is an asset to the league. I would say TNS would have no problems surviving in the Conference and would possibly survive in League Two, so to do that for about 10-15 seasons is fairly impressive and shows that it can be done, albeit with a dedicated financial backer and regular European qualification.
What is needed is more cooperation between Cardiff/Swansea and the league. Loaning good quality young players out to the teams for the opening rounds of European competition is an obvious idea which should be done more often.
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Post by mregg on May 28, 2016 16:28:01 GMT
I can't agree with those who say the league has become worse. The performances in Europe - the main measure of this - have unquestionably improved in recent seasons. Look at the numbers of teams progressing through at least one round in Europe. Normally there's at least one, though to some extent this has to do with restructuring on the format (but not entirely). Also the standard in smaller European leagues generally is improving, so this is not to be sniffed at even when it's a Maltese or Luxembourg team who are the opposition. The Maltese team Newtown knocked out last year were professional; most teams in European competition on a regular basis are these days. There may be some nostalgia at play here. Of course you can point to players like Delaney or teams like Barry Town - Barry Town for a period were probably playing at a standard equal to League Two or even League One level, but this was for a brief period at a point they were paying blatantly unsustainable wages. TNS are a sustainable full time team, clearly in it for the long haul, and Mike Harris, eccentric though he is, is an asset to the league. I would say TNS would have no problems surviving in the Conference and would possibly survive in League Two, so to do that for about 10-15 seasons is fairly impressive and shows that it can be done, albeit with a dedicated financial backer and regular European qualification. What is needed is more cooperation between Cardiff/Swansea and the league. Loaning good quality young players out to the teams for the opening rounds of European competition is an obvious idea which should be done more often. Rather than loaning, maybe they should have a 'B' team playing in the WPL. If they are good enough, then there is a direct root into the top 2 leagues in the English Pyramid. Apart from that... the article is a joke. I know of a few players who used to play in the LoW on the Saturday & for pub sides on the Sunday. |
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Post by marsvolta on May 28, 2016 17:56:00 GMT
The irony is that if Coleman didn't pick anyone outside the championship then Tom Bradshaw, the only ex-WPL player in the squad, would not be allowed to be selected.
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Post by robin1864 on May 28, 2016 19:37:29 GMT
Another case of 'don't judge an article by the headline.' I thought that, but the words directly underneath that are "Mike Harris". |
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Post by mrpicton79 on May 29, 2016 0:05:50 GMT
I would say TNS would have no problems surviving in the Conference and would possibly survive in League Two, so to do that for about 10-15 seasons is fairly impressive and shows that it can be done, albeit with a dedicated financial backer and regular European qualification. Getting a little carried away there, no way would they survive in the 4th tier of English football. I would estimate the standard in the Welsh league to be similar to the 7th tier, where Merthyr Town & Colwyn Bay ply their trade, and that's probably being optimistic. |
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Post by alarch on May 29, 2016 12:00:16 GMT
I think there's even a chance TNS would survive in League One let alone the 4th tier - although League One would probably be about their level. What I can't work out is whether you're downbeat assessment is because you haven't seen that much of TNS (especially in Europe) - or because you're unaware of the low standard of lower league and especially non-league English football.
I remember watching TNS on the telly against the Swedish champions Helsinborgs a few years ago, and was really impressed by the standard of TNS' football. They drew the home leg 0-0 and deserved to win. They eventually lost 3-0 on aggregate, but they weren't outclassed by any means. They also easily beat the Faroese champions last year, before narrowly losing to the Hungarian champions - 2-1 on aggregate. Their record has improved in recent years (in the 2002-03 season they lost 12-2 on aggregate to the well-known Wronki of Poland) - which demonstrates that the standard of the WPL must have progressed to some extent.
I think it's easy to underestimate the standard of TNS and the league generally because of the dismal crowds and the problem with the competitiveness of the league - owing to having one professional club.
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Post by garynysmon on May 29, 2016 20:43:50 GMT
I would say TNS would have no problems surviving in the Conference and would possibly survive in League Two, so to do that for about 10-15 seasons is fairly impressive and shows that it can be done, albeit with a dedicated financial backer and regular European qualification. Getting a little carried away there, no way would they survive in the 4th tier of English football. I would estimate the standard in the Welsh league to be similar to the 7th tier, where Merthyr Town & Colwyn Bay ply their trade, and that's probably being optimistic. I find it incredibly frustrating that so many people have this assumption that because Merthyr, Colwyn etc play in the English system, that they're automatically better than the Welsh Premier. |
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Post by llan123 on May 29, 2016 21:36:29 GMT
I think there's even a chance TNS would survive in League One let alone the 4th tier - although League One would probably be about their level. What I can't work out is whether you're downbeat assessment is because you haven't seen that much of TNS (especially in Europe) - or because you're unaware of the low standard of lower league and especially non-league English football. I remember watching TNS on the telly against the Swedish champions Helsinborgs a few years ago, and was really impressed by the standard of TNS' football. They drew the home leg 0-0 and deserved to win. They eventually lost 3-0 on aggregate, but they weren't outclassed by any means. They also easily beat the Faroese champions last year, before narrowly losing to the Hungarian champions - 2-1 on aggregate. Their record has improved in recent years (in the 2002-03 season they lost 12-2 on aggregate to the well-known Wronki of Poland) - which demonstrates that the standard of the WPL must have progressed to some extent. I think it's easy to underestimate the standard of TNS and the league generally because of the dismal crowds and the problem with the competitiveness of the league - owing to having one professional club. League two for TNS I would say but they could make a fist of it surviving in League One. Your last paragraph rings true but you have fallen into the trap of basing your assessment of the leagues quality based on the one pro side in the league (Who have won two Trebles in a row). TNS have made great strides and are a really good side but the rest of the league has deteriorated a hell of lot in the 15 or so I have been watching games. Posted this earlier in the thread but without TNS exploits in Europe the league hasn't done that much. Fourth worst league in Europe and the clubs have done worse in the previous three seasons to the two prior to that. I think the best thing people can do to help domestic Welsh football is to support their local side and put money into their clubs. Picking players to train with the Welsh squad in some patronising token gesture won't do a great deal to improve the league. Trust me, the players I know are under no illusions about their standing in the game. They don't expect a call up any time soon. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient#Current_ranking |
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Post by mrpicton79 on May 29, 2016 22:22:03 GMT
I think there's even a chance TNS would survive in League One let alone the 4th tier - although League One would probably be about their level. What I can't work out is whether you're downbeat assessment is because you haven't seen that much of TNS (especially in Europe) - or because you're unaware of the low standard of lower league and especially non-league English football. Some sweeping assertions being made here. Essentially you're saying in terms of Welsh clubs only Swansea & Cardiff are better than TNS? In a sense you've answered your own question, they are the only professional team in the league they play in, they're facing amateur opposition week in week out. However poor you think it is the entire football league (and most the conference) is fully professional, but you're suggesting they'd have no problems holding their own in it because they beat a team from the Faroe Islands at the start of the season? |
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Post by mrpicton79 on May 29, 2016 22:33:02 GMT
Getting a little carried away there, no way would they survive in the 4th tier of English football. I would estimate the standard in the Welsh league to be similar to the 7th tier, where Merthyr Town & Colwyn Bay ply their trade, and that's probably being optimistic. I find it incredibly frustrating that so many people have this assumption that because Merthyr, Colwyn etc play in the English system, that they're automatically better than the Welsh Premier. Not necessarily better, that's just where I see the equivalent standard of football to the WPL. |
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Post by robin1864 on May 30, 2016 11:28:34 GMT
Anyone who thinks TNS are League 2 standard is in need of hospitalisation, seeing as Wrexham and Newport are there abouts at that level.
I think the best measure of quality is if the FAW reintroduced exile clubs to the Welsh Cup, then we'd soon see TNS/Airbus get brushed aside by Colwyn Bay.
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Post by alarch on May 30, 2016 11:36:52 GMT
Anyone who thinks TNS are League 2 standard is in need of hospitalisation, seeing as Wrexham and Newport are there abouts at that level. I think the best measure of quality is if the FAW reintroduced exile clubs to the Welsh Cup, then we'd soon see TNS/Airbus get brushed aside by Colwyn Bay. I think you've become infected with the "English is superior" malaise. The forthcoming Euros should hopefully provide the ideal remedy. |
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Post by llan123 on May 30, 2016 16:17:04 GMT
Anyone who thinks TNS are League 2 standard is in need of hospitalisation, seeing as Wrexham and Newport are there abouts at that level. I think the best measure of quality is if the FAW reintroduced exile clubs to the Welsh Cup, then we'd soon see TNS/Airbus get brushed aside by Colwyn Bay. I think you've become infected with the "English is superior" malaise. The forthcoming Euros should hopefully provide the ideal remedy. Alright I know you're taking the piss now. The reason domestic Welsh football isn't great is because our biggest clubs play in the English leagues, so yes, English domestic football is superior and it's hardly surprising is it. I wonder what the backlash would be like from the fans of the exiled clubs if they all decided to play in the Welsh pyramid. |
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Post by robin1864 on May 30, 2016 19:16:57 GMT
Anyone who thinks TNS are League 2 standard is in need of hospitalisation, seeing as Wrexham and Newport are there abouts at that level. I think the best measure of quality is if the FAW reintroduced exile clubs to the Welsh Cup, then we'd soon see TNS/Airbus get brushed aside by Colwyn Bay. I think you've become infected with the "English is superior" malaise. The forthcoming Euros should hopefully provide the ideal remedy. No, I live in England which has me outside of the inward-looking Welsh bubble, helping me see the good and bad in both, and if I were Bangor, Rhyl or TNS, I'd be looking for the first ticket to the Evo Stick League. The possibility of an FA Cup tie vs. United/Chelsea/City is far more attractive than playing Vilnius in the Europa pre-pre-pre qualifying stages. The Welsh system is shite and has been for many years. It reached a peak in the late 90/early 00's when Barry used to challenge TNS for honours. Coverage is better now, but the quality has regressed with each professional team that has gone bankrupt. |
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Post by saints19 on May 31, 2016 0:22:13 GMT
Anyone who thinks TNS are League 2 standard is in need of hospitalisation, seeing as Wrexham and Newport are there abouts at that level. I think the best measure of quality is if the FAW reintroduced exile clubs to the Welsh Cup, then we'd soon see TNS/Airbus get brushed aside by Colwyn Bay. Now I'm sorry but I just think that's rubbish. I remember back in he late 2000s while the FAW Premier Cup was still running a final between TNS and Newport, and TNS won comfortably and were the better team. Now Newport at the time were a top 8 Conference South team and pushing for promotion to the Conference National, they fielded a full team (£100k prize money was available to the winners) so there is no doubt they were taking it seriously. Aside from that there is the fact that TNS are a full time team and that suggests the level is probably fairly decent to justify a full time salary. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to suggest, as I did, they'd be fine at Conference level. League 2 would definitely be more difficult, but not undoable. I think the standard of TNS is definitely closer to League 2 than the seventh tier. |
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Post by saints19 on May 31, 2016 0:26:05 GMT
I think you've become infected with the "English is superior" malaise. The forthcoming Euros should hopefully provide the ideal remedy. Alright I know you're taking the piss now. The reason domestic Welsh football isn't great is because our biggest clubs play in the English leagues, so yes, English domestic football is superior and it's hardly surprising is it. I wonder what the backlash would be like from the fans of the exiled clubs if they all decided to play in the Welsh pyramid. Obviously English football at higher levels is better, but that doesn't mean English football at any level is automatically superior. The reason Merthyr, CB and a few years ago Newport would have been saying they want to stay in England isn't because what they have is so much better, it's that they all dream of playing maybe Championship level someday. Which is a valid point, if you believe that Welsh clubs playing in an English system and being anti-English routinely at matches is non hypocritical, somehow. But that doesn't change the argument about current playing levels. |
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