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Post by alarch on May 31, 2016 11:12:35 GMT
I can understand to an extent why supporters of clubs who might (theoretically after Newport's successful court case) feel threatened with having to play in the WPL have a hostile view of the WPL. But the idea that a part-time team that's just been relegated from the Northern Premier League - the 7th tier of the English system could beat the full time champions of the WPL is a complete nonsense.
On the subject of Colwyn Bay, of all the clubs who choose to play in the English pyramid, they are the ones whose stance is least comprehensible. The popoluation of Colwyn Bay is far too small to sustain a league club. With a fair wind they might get a few seasons at 5th tier level, but that seems such a meagre reward compared to being a significant force in the WPL and European involvement. I wouldn't want to deprive them, or any other club, of the freedom to choose where they play, but their decision to continue to play in the English system seems perverse.
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Post by llan123 on Jun 1, 2016 1:36:55 GMT
TNS would batter Colwyn Bay and Merthyr, I agree with both of you. I can only imagine that Colwyn Bay are trying to grow their club and support organically so they have enough support to compete at Conference level. 5th tier of the English pyramid has greater rewards than the WPL, I only base that on the fact that the Conference is fully Pro now with over triple the average attendance of the mostly semi Pro WPL. I'd like to see both Merthyr and Colwyn Bay play in the Welsh system but I can't see it happening, I know Merthyr fans are hostile to the idea.
TNS may have squad to compete at League Two level but they'd sink without a trace after a few seasons, they have next to no local support and they'd struggle without European money and crowds as the wage bill would soar. They could easily elect to play in England as they play there but Mike Harries obviously recognises that his club has it easier in Wales dominating every competition they enter.
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Post by robin1864 on Jun 1, 2016 21:12:57 GMT
This blind love of the WPL (which, let's face it means TNS) and comparisons to the Conference (or higher!) are nauseating.
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Post by mrpicton79 on Jun 1, 2016 21:37:49 GMT
This blind love of the WPL (which, let's face it means TNS) and comparisons to the Conference (or higher!) are nauseating. I see where you're coming from. I'm all for positive thinking but there's a tipping point where it becomes delusional, as we're seeing a bit on this thread. |
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Post by welwyn on Jun 1, 2016 23:23:55 GMT
Besides, isn't the point that, whatever level TNS would be the equivalent of, outside TNS, it probably is 7th/8th tier stuff.
Having one half decent team does not a league make, especially when they actually are an English club and half their team are non-eligible for Wales.
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Post by iot on Jun 2, 2016 11:09:03 GMT
This blind love of the WPL (which, let's face it means TNS) and comparisons to the Conference (or higher!) are nauseating. Strange attitude to have, I find the bashing of the league far more nauseating. The truth is in between those who say it's league 2 level and those who say it's 7th or 8th tier. TNS are lower league 2 / higher conference standard while the rest of the league are lower conference level. They're far better than the likes of Colwyn Bay and Merthyr as the old Welsh Premier Cup used to show - Colwyn Bay never even qualified for it while Merthyr never made it through to the final. TNS beat Newport in 06/07 and Llanelli only narrowly lost to the same team the following season. In the last five seasons it was running, WPL sides made the final on three occasions despite the likes of Wrexham, Newport and Merthyr taking the competition seriously (with £100k up for grabs)! |
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Post by llan123 on Jun 2, 2016 16:13:45 GMT
Besides, isn't the point that, whatever level TNS would be the equivalent of, outside TNS, it probably is 7th/8th tier stuff. Having one half decent team does not a league make, especially when they actually are an English club and half their team are non-eligible for Wales. Most of the sides in the WPL are probably not Welsh qualified, full of Scousers and Mancs. I find it ridiculous that people are basing their opinions on the league on TNS, the only pro side in the league who have won the treble the last two seasons. Outside of the Shropshire lot the rest of the league is a very poor standard. |
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Post by alarch on Jun 2, 2016 16:17:43 GMT
Bala finished 7 points behind TNS, that's 3 points closer than Arsenal were behind Leicester. Just saying...
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Post by llan123 on Jun 2, 2016 16:29:53 GMT
Bala then lost against the second best team in Luxembourg in the first qualifying round of the Europa League..
The Bala story is fantastic though, very small town who are well ran. I don't think they can compete with TNS though at all, TNS sewn up the title early on and took their foot off the gas (as is natural for player with nothing to play for).
Who do you follow Alarch?
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Post by robin1864 on Jun 2, 2016 18:19:11 GMT
This blind love of the WPL (which, let's face it means TNS) and comparisons to the Conference (or higher!) are nauseating. Strange attitude to have, I find the bashing of the league far more nauseating. The truth is in between those who say it's league 2 level and those who say it's 7th or 8th tier. TNS are lower league 2 / higher conference standard while the rest of the league are lower conference level. They're far better than the likes of Colwyn Bay and Merthyr as the old Welsh Premier Cup used to show - Colwyn Bay never even qualified for it while Merthyr never made it through to the final. TNS beat Newport in 06/07 and Llanelli only narrowly lost to the same team the following season. In the last five seasons it was running, WPL sides made the final on three occasions despite the likes of Wrexham, Newport and Merthyr taking the competition seriously (with £100k up for grabs)! Strewth, the level of delusion. The Premier Cup was a great concept but essentially an end of season run-out for the reserves of football league sides. It's like watching people try and claim Celtic are better than Barca, because they win their league all the time and beat Barca on one occasion. |
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Post by iot on Jun 3, 2016 11:23:02 GMT
Strange attitude to have, I find the bashing of the league far more nauseating. The truth is in between those who say it's league 2 level and those who say it's 7th or 8th tier. TNS are lower league 2 / higher conference standard while the rest of the league are lower conference level. They're far better than the likes of Colwyn Bay and Merthyr as the old Welsh Premier Cup used to show - Colwyn Bay never even qualified for it while Merthyr never made it through to the final. TNS beat Newport in 06/07 and Llanelli only narrowly lost to the same team the following season. In the last five seasons it was running, WPL sides made the final on three occasions despite the likes of Wrexham, Newport and Merthyr taking the competition seriously (with £100k up for grabs)! Strewth, the level of delusion. The Premier Cup was a great concept but essentially an end of season run-out for the reserves of football league sides. It's like watching people try and claim Celtic are better than Barca, because they win their league all the time and beat Barca on one occasion. Perhaps with Cardiff and Swansea, and I've never suggested the Welsh Prem teams come close to that standard even back then. However, the likes of Wrexham, Newport and Merthyr did take it seriously and the top Welsh prem sides matched them as my last comment showed. I remember watching a Rhyl v Wrexham game with Wrexham having their strongest side out. Wrexham narrowly won it but the only difference was Carlos Edwards - they were in League 2 at the time. The likes of Colwyn Bay would never have been able to compete at that level. I agree mostly with llan123 - the standard isn't great and in my mind has deteriorated slightly. However, to suggest it's comparable to 7th tier Colwyn Bay is rubbish and I don't understand why some are exaggerating the lack of quality when we should be promoting the league. |
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Post by richierich333 on Jun 3, 2016 11:44:54 GMT
I cannot believe some of the stuff I'm reading on here. 'TNS is a League 1 level team' just wow. That is absolute nonsense. They would struggle in the conference ffs! If these players were that good don't you think they would be playing in League one one or even league 2? Have a look at the teams in League one for next year and ask yourself 'would TNS beat this team?' That should basically end all discussion on this.
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Post by iot on Jun 3, 2016 12:36:28 GMT
I cannot believe some of the stuff I'm reading on here. 'TNS is a League 1 level team' just wow. That is absolute nonsense. They would struggle in the conference ffs! If these players were that good don't you think they would be playing in League one one or even league 2? Have a look at the teams in League one for next year and ask yourself 'would TNS beat this team?' That should basically end all discussion on this. Just as ridiculous as claiming they're no better than 7th tier Colwyn Bay. At least the other lot are guilty of over-hyping the league whereas you're lot, for some bizarre reason, are massively downplaying the league. |
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Post by richierich333 on Jun 3, 2016 12:56:35 GMT
I cannot believe some of the stuff I'm reading on here. 'TNS is a League 1 level team' just wow. That is absolute nonsense. They would struggle in the conference ffs! If these players were that good don't you think they would be playing in League one one or even league 2? Have a look at the teams in League one for next year and ask yourself 'would TNS beat this team?' That should basically end all discussion on this. Just as ridiculous as claiming they're no better than 7th tier Colwyn Bay. At least the other lot are guilty of over-hyping the league whereas you're lot, for some bizarre reason, are massively downplaying the league. I didn't say 7th tier I said they would struggle in the conference, that is the cold reality of the situation. I would love the WPL to be stronger than this but frankly it is not. I'm not downplaying it at all. |
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Post by luke on Jun 3, 2016 13:59:53 GMT
This thread's a bit of a shame now to be honest. Aided by the thread title being provocative and OTT. It's possible to defend the WPL as a quite fun 'non-league' level of football which gives places like Bala and Newtown a chance to play games in Europe. Pretty cool. My point was only that a couple of players 'from' the WPL might go on to higher things. It's not 'blind love', just saying it's valid for Wales to have its own league and pyramid, accepting that the resources are incomparable to those available to Welsh teams who play in England.
We don't need to say TNS is League 1 standard to defend the WPL!
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Post by mrpicton79 on Jun 3, 2016 15:08:13 GMT
I cannot believe some of the stuff I'm reading on here. 'TNS is a League 1 level team' just wow. That is absolute nonsense. They would struggle in the conference ffs! If these players were that good don't you think they would be playing in League one one or even league 2? Have a look at the teams in League one for next year and ask yourself 'would TNS beat this team?' That should basically end all discussion on this. Just as ridiculous as claiming they're no better than 7th tier Colwyn Bay. At least the other lot are guilty of over-hyping the league whereas you're lot, for some bizarre reason, are massively downplaying the league. We're only being realistic about things, is that really so bizarre? I guess some people just can't handle the truth, preferring to simply believe what sounds nice to them, personally I'm not into that at all. |
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Post by robin1864 on Jun 3, 2016 19:21:36 GMT
Just as ridiculous as claiming they're no better than 7th tier Colwyn Bay. At least the other lot are guilty of over-hyping the league whereas you're lot, for some bizarre reason, are massively downplaying the league. I didn't say 7th tier I said they would struggle in the conference, that is the cold reality of the situation. I would love the WPL to be stronger than this but frankly it is not. I'm not downplaying it at all. To put the WPL (TNS) "strength" into perspective, most players in that team, and dotted about the league are Wrexham rejects. Players who couldn't get out of the Conference. |
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Post by Sincere on Jun 3, 2016 23:53:57 GMT
Rhys Griffiths... Lee John... Newport County have gambled on a few WPL players - but they never worled out.
The league will improve if it gets more notice - and a decent South Wales city side would do it - and Barry Town United being there.
Even Christian Doidge, who moved from WPL, has had to leave League Two after one season, so he'll be trying his luck at Forest Green Rovers, now.
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Post by iot on Jun 4, 2016 23:20:06 GMT
Just as ridiculous as claiming they're no better than 7th tier Colwyn Bay. At least the other lot are guilty of over-hyping the league whereas you're lot, for some bizarre reason, are massively downplaying the league. We're only being realistic about things, is that really so bizarre? I guess some people just can't handle the truth, preferring to simply believe what sounds nice to them, personally I'm not into that at all. So if you're 'only being realistic', on what basis do you say the league is no better than the English 7th tier? Is it based on anything at all? The only evidence of competitive games between WPL sides and sides from the english pyramid was from the welsh premier cup and in that competition the wpl sides matched 5th tier english sides, never mind 7th tier ones. I just think it's a disappointing attitude to have - I don't think it's 'just being realistic' as opposed to us lot who must be incredibly naiive, I think some of you are deliberately trying to put the league down and I'm not quite sure why. |
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Post by mregg on Jun 5, 2016 5:56:01 GMT
We're only being realistic about things, is that really so bizarre? I guess some people just can't handle the truth, preferring to simply believe what sounds nice to them, personally I'm not into that at all. So if you're 'only being realistic', on what basis do you say the league is no better than the English 7th tier? Is it based on anything at all? The only evidence of competitive games between WPL sides and sides from the english pyramid was from the welsh premier cup and in that competition the wpl sides matched 5th tier english sides, never mind 7th tier ones. I just think it's a disappointing attitude to have - I don't think it's 'just being realistic' as opposed to us lot who must be incredibly naiive, I think some of you are deliberately trying to put the league down and I'm not quite sure why. Strange things happen in cups. Not always both teams take it seriously. To use that as a benchmark is laughable. Over the years there has been some good performances by TNS & Barry Town. Could they do it consistently over 40 games a season at a higher level? probably not. TNS are not league 1 standards & I am sure TNS would be the kind of club which would have its players monitored/scouted by a lot of lower league clubs in the hope of finding the next Vardy. Just as I would guess their squad is mostly made of players with experience from English lower leagues through to the English non-league clubs. |
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Post by phillygaz on Jun 5, 2016 7:19:41 GMT
We're only being realistic about things, is that really so bizarre? I guess some people just can't handle the truth, preferring to simply believe what sounds nice to them, personally I'm not into that at all. So if you're 'only being realistic', on what basis do you say the league is no better than the English 7th tier? Is it based on anything at all? The only evidence of competitive games between WPL sides and sides from the english pyramid was from the welsh premier cup and in that competition the wpl sides matched 5th tier english sides, never mind 7th tier ones. I just think it's a disappointing attitude to have - I don't think it's 'just being realistic' as opposed to us lot who must be incredibly naiive, I think some of you are deliberately trying to put the league down and I'm not quite sure why. For goodness sake. No one is deliberately trying to do down the league. They just have a different opinion. Did WPL sides "match fifth tier English sides"? Newport and Wrexham made 11 finals between them. All WPL only made four. I don't know if WPL is better than English 7th tier or not but both those who say it is and those who say it isn't both have a case. It's a different opinion not a "disappointing attitude" |
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Post by iot on Jun 5, 2016 8:11:49 GMT
So if you're 'only being realistic', on what basis do you say the league is no better than the English 7th tier? Is it based on anything at all? The only evidence of competitive games between WPL sides and sides from the english pyramid was from the welsh premier cup and in that competition the wpl sides matched 5th tier english sides, never mind 7th tier ones. I just think it's a disappointing attitude to have - I don't think it's 'just being realistic' as opposed to us lot who must be incredibly naiive, I think some of you are deliberately trying to put the league down and I'm not quite sure why. Strange things happen in cups. Not always both teams take it seriously. To use that as a benchmark is laughable. Over the years there has been some good performances by TNS & Barry Town. Could they do it consistently over 40 games a season at a higher level? probably not. TNS are not league 1 standards & I am sure TNS would be the kind of club which would have its players monitored/scouted by a lot of lower league clubs in the hope of finding the next Vardy. Just as I would guess their squad is mostly made of players with experience from English lower leagues through to the English non-league clubs. The likes of Wrexham and Newport definitely dit take it seriously as they regularly fielded their strongest sides with £100k up for grabs. I agree a cup competition such as that isn't the best way to compare the quality but my point was that it's the only evidence we have of competitive fixtures between sides from the Welsh and English systems. It is a worthwhile indicator, more so than anything else available to us. I agree TNS are not league 1 standard, as I've previously said I would rate them at lower league 2 / higher conf level. I base that on a number of things. I've watched them play a number of times on telly and have been to their ground a few times (not to support them obviously, they have no supporters!). I've also watched a number of Wrexham games and in my opinion the quality hasn't been dissimilar. Seconly, they're a professional sides and are consequentially able to attract players from a similar calibre to prioessional sides in the english pyramid. Steve Evans, for example, played for them until his mid twenties, went to play for L2 Wrexham (as well as Wales!) and returned in his late twenties/early thirties. Thirdly, and probably the best indicator, is their record against other professional sides in competitive games. I've already discussed the welsh premier cup but there's also all the european fixtures too. On that basis I think we can confidently say they're L2/conf level. As for the rest of the league, there is undoubtedly a gap but I don't think it's larger than that between the top and bottom of conf. They're certainly better than the likes of Colwyn Bay! |
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Post by iot on Jun 5, 2016 8:17:59 GMT
So if you're 'only being realistic', on what basis do you say the league is no better than the English 7th tier? Is it based on anything at all? The only evidence of competitive games between WPL sides and sides from the english pyramid was from the welsh premier cup and in that competition the wpl sides matched 5th tier english sides, never mind 7th tier ones. I just think it's a disappointing attitude to have - I don't think it's 'just being realistic' as opposed to us lot who must be incredibly naiive, I think some of you are deliberately trying to put the league down and I'm not quite sure why. For goodness sake. No one is deliberately trying to do down the league. They just have a different opinion. Did WPL sides "match fifth tier English sides"? Newport and Wrexham made 11 finals between them. All WPL only made four. I don't know if WPL is better than English 7th tier or not but both those who say it is and those who say it isn't both have a case. It's a different opinion not a "disappointing attitude" But what is saying the welsh prem is no better than the english 7th tier based on? 'Did WPL sides "match fifth tier English sides"? Newport and Wrexham made 11 finals between them. All WPL only made four' The mistake you've made there is that Wrexham were actually a decent fourth tier side at the time. I just think there are some snide attitudes towards the Welsh prem, that many people see it as a joke and that Welsh fans should do all we can to promote the league so that it can be the best it can. |
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Post by phillygaz on Jun 5, 2016 9:09:25 GMT
For goodness sake. No one is deliberately trying to do down the league. They just have a different opinion. Did WPL sides "match fifth tier English sides"? Newport and Wrexham made 11 finals between them. All WPL only made four. I don't know if WPL is better than English 7th tier or not but both those who say it is and those who say it isn't both have a case. It's a different opinion not a "disappointing attitude" But what is saying the welsh prem is no better than the english 7th tier based on? 'Did WPL sides "match fifth tier English sides"? Newport and Wrexham made 11 finals between them. All WPL only made four' The mistake you've made there is that Wrexham were actually a decent fourth tier side at the time. I just think there are some snide attitudes towards the Welsh prem, that many people see it as a joke and that Welsh fans should do all we can to promote the league so that it can be the best it can. Maybe so but Wrexham have been used throughout this thread as an example of how WPL sides matched opponents of round about that level in the Prem Cup when they did not. I have no problem with people promoting the Welsh league. I would like to see it go from strength to strength. However I think the honest judgements of people who see it is less strong than some do does not deserve such incredulity. I didn't get the impression that many were being snide in this thread rather than making a judgement as they saw it. I was not particularly interested when the thread became just about TNS and maybe 7th tier comparisons are harsh on them. I would find it hard to confidently judge but I don't think it's an outrageous assessment of some other WPL teams. They may be better than that but my point is that such an opinion is not ridiculous. I think some Welsh fans, myself included, sometimes feel a persecution complex when aspects of Welsh football that we want to be positive about are viewed more negatively by others and I think we should be wary of feeling too hard done by before being as objective as possible. |
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Post by llannerch on Jun 5, 2016 9:41:47 GMT
I think you've become infected with the "English is superior" malaise. The forthcoming Euros should hopefully provide the ideal remedy. No, I live in England which has me outside of the inward-looking Welsh bubble, helping me see the good and bad in both, and if I were Bangor, Rhyl or TNS, I'd be looking for the first ticket to the Evo Stick League. The possibility of an FA Cup tie vs. United/Chelsea/City is far more attractive than playing Vilnius in the Europa pre-pre-pre qualifying stages. The Welsh system is shite and has been for many years. It reached a peak in the late 90/early 00's when Barry used to challenge TNS for honours. Coverage is better now, but the quality has regressed with each professional team that has gone bankrupt. "the inward looking Welsh bubble" - what the hell is that. There's a plurality of views on the WPL and other aspects of domestic football that you're clearly ignorant of. Your earlier comment that the FAW should reintroduce the exiled clubs into the Welsh Cup is proof of this. Those clubs can't have it both ways. They can't play in both the Welsh and English domestic cups while in the Welsh League. Those clubs have made their decisions. When the FAW Premier Cup was in existnce - a reasonable compromise competition - too many clubs saw it as an irritation and fielded weakened sides. Personally I think a club like Merthyr Town have a lot to offer the Welsh system but like any club entering the Welsh pyramid they should have to work their way up and I can understand why they would not want to do that. You give the impression it's a binary argument and it very much isn't. Your notion that a cup tie against Chelsea is more attractive than a European tie against Vilnius is absurd. The annual guaranteed money of the latter for the likes of TNS versus the remote possibility of the former just doesn't stack up. Only so many clubs get to play the 'elite' clubs annually. You also fail to see the inherent between having a domestic league and a national team. The moment that "Bangor, Rhyl or TNS" leave the Welsh system is the moment that football's governing bodies will query again the viability of Welsh footballing independence. You don't improve the WPL by letting clubs leave it. It will improve by more sides joining it. There are plenty of parallels across the world of fledgling leagues taking years to find their feet, so to speak: The Netherlands, Republic of Ireland, Norway for instance. We're doing ok, but can do far better. |
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Post by llannerch on Jun 5, 2016 9:44:59 GMT
Rhys Griffiths... Lee John... Newport County have gambled on a few WPL players - but they never worled out. The league will improve if it gets more notice - and a decent South Wales city side would do it - and Barry Town United being there. Even Christian Doidge, who moved from WPL, has had to leave League Two after one season, so he'll be trying his luck at Forest Green Rovers, now. That small a sample of course could mean that those players are 'to blame'. On the hand, Eifion Williams did ok in the English League so what does that mean for the WPL? |
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Post by llannerch on Jun 5, 2016 9:54:34 GMT
but the quality has regressed with each professional team that has gone bankrupt. Bankrupcy means less for quality than it does for the vibaility of the underlying business model. The WPL can't sustain many professional clubs. That's not a reflection on the WPL per se. It's as much a reflection on the Welsh economy and demographics. This shouldn't matter though. Many of Europe's leagues are semi-pro and survive by exporting players. This is the model we should adopt and not be ashamed or embarrassed by. Focus on producing technically and tactically proficient players who aspire to play in England (or even better abroad) on pro terms, and whose transfer value can help sustain the development of future players. As long as they are by and large replaced by other young players from the conveyor belt, and not by mid 30s journeymen (though a smattering of these throughout the WPL are helpful), the better. The fact remains given how many clubs have gone to the wall in Scotland and England suggests the business model simply isn't sustainable. What does that mean for the standard of football in England? And of course, what happens when Sky decides it doesn't want to bankroll it all, or when the EPL decides it wants a bigger slice of the overall pie? |
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Post by mregg on Jun 5, 2016 12:12:34 GMT
llanerch, your deluded.
Very few make it out of the WPL & go onto bigger & better things.
You dont always need the best XI to have a good team spirit & the belief to beat anyone.
Look at Greece, Denmark & Leicester City.
Also, we have a semi-pro international team, who results arent great.
If your 21-22yr old playing in WPL then you may have a chance of being noticed & moving to English Pyramid.
Otherwise its just older players who didnt quite make it for one reason or another playing at the highest level possible to them.
I know one guy who played in that Barry side from a few years ago. He was set to have been offered a contract at a big club.
Change of manager & the new manager didnt fancy his style & released him. He fell out of love with the game & plummeted through the divisions before ending up at Barry & never got back up again.
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Post by llan123 on Jun 5, 2016 15:25:45 GMT
League two is about right for TNS. Then a couple of teams would be scrapping around the bottom of the Conference and the rest are around Colwyn Bay level. Our league is Semi Pro but one, whereas the Conference is all Pro, the standard of football is obviously going to be a lot better in the conference seeing as they are competing for largely the same group of players. The very best WPL players, like the already mentioned Christian Doidge who went to Dagenham and Redbridge go to teams in the bottom of League Two and it seldom works out. Doidge has just joined Forest Green.
Llanerch your model of selling players to English clubs is a good one but it's not feasible. The problem is these clubs can't afford to give players anymore than a one year rolling contract, if a players any good "buying" clubs just wait for the contract to end at the end of the season and get the player for free.
Like I said earlier the best thing we can do to help the league is go to games and put money behind the counter of our local clubs. I don't think saying the overall quality of the league is below conference level is trashing the league at all, it's being realistic. We need a domestic league and it's always going to struggle without our biggest population areas playing in it, I actually think it's in rude health right now.
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Post by bale-droed on Jul 19, 2016 18:02:49 GMT
Judging by that clearance at the end of the first half and the post that got hit the footballing gods might have a plan for TNS here.. I'n 45 minutes this article might not be as insane
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