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Post by njdragon on Oct 10, 2013 11:35:06 GMT
well he was assistant manager to speed
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Post by llannerch on Oct 10, 2013 11:39:10 GMT
Verheijen and Roden concentrated on performance and training, Speed/Roberts were the main tacticians. So the great Raymondo is just a physio then? Why the clamour for him to be given some sort of managerial job?! Bizarre. Exactly. Bellamy may as well hire Dr Richard Steadman as an assistant, he helped get Bellamy fit time and again too. Plus comparing Hiddink/Verheijen and Bellamy/Verheijen is ridiculous. Whatever...Bellamy is praising this current crop like never before. In fact we've heard barely a peep out of him at the last few camps. TP is right, there is an inevitability around this now. But here's a thought: Coleman stays on but is told to accommodate Bellamy in the set-up with a view to being heir apparent. Feasible? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 11:46:47 GMT
well he was assistant manager to speed Got any interviews where Speed talks about what Ray actually does? A title does not necessarily prove anything. I am sure Ray would get paid more for having the title of Assistant Manager. I recall reading an interview where Ray talked about his traffic light system for measuring players mindset prior to a match - doesn't really sound like the remit of an assistant manager. In the absence of anything concrete I am inclined to believe Texan as at least (on the basis of previous postings) he has some sort of inside info. It also would seem strange to have Speed, Osian and Ray all having input on tactics and approach to games. |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 10, 2013 12:00:24 GMT
well he was assistant manager to speed Got any interviews where Speed talks about what Ray actually does? A title does not necessarily prove anything. I am sure Ray would get paid more for having the title of Assistant Manager. I recall reading an interview where Ray talked about his traffic light system for measuring players mindset prior to a match - doesn't really sound like the remit of an assistant manager. In the absence of anything concrete I am inclined to believe Texan as at least (on the basis of previous postings) he has some sort of inside info. It also would seem strange to have Speed, Osian and Ray all having input on tactics and approach to games. Where did Texan get this info? the traffic light system was part of Rodens strategy. Rays was speeds first appointment and he took just him along to work out the schedules for the world cup fixtures as you would your assistant manager. Yes its true he has been conditioning and fitness for other jobs and is his background but for Wales he certainly was assistant manager. If you check out all the photos from the time of speed you can see its him alongside speed training & players every day not osian or roden. Interesting read from what bale had to say about him at the time of speeds death too - Bale feels it would be "absolutely ridiculous" to bring in a new management set-up given that Verheijen and fellow assistant Osian Roberts can carry on Speed's plan to help get Wales to the 2014 World Cup finals in Brazil. "It's a massive blow for everybody [Speed's death]," said Bale. "Nobody expected it at all, but I think we would definitely want to keep the same set-up. "Raymond's done a fantastic job with Gary Speed and, yeah, we want to keep it that way. "Hopefully all the board members, all the FAW members will see sense and we've got a major tournament around the corner and we're playing some great football and we're getting actual results. "So hopefully they've realised that that's happening... and I know personally most of the players want to keep it the same. "Hopefully they...make sure that we can carry on Gary Speed's legacy and what he wanted us to do." Wales had won four of their last five games under Speed and Bale thinks it would take them up to two years to get to where they are now under new management. He added: "It'll be absolutely ridiculous to change anything now because it'll take us a good year or two to get us back up to where we are now and hopefully the FAW can come to their senses and stick with what we've got." |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 10, 2013 12:03:42 GMT
Also there's this
From a personal point of view in 2011 I was assistant manager for Wales with the late Gary Speed. That is my most memorable year. It was special, although it had a dramatic ending with the death of Gary Speed, first of all I had this great relationship with him. Secondly although he was a relatively young and inexperienced coach he gave me all the freedom and made me responsible for developing a playing style and also the psychological coaching of the team
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 12:20:46 GMT
Also there's this From a personal point of view in 2011 I was assistant manager for Wales with the late Gary Speed. That is my most memorable year. It was special, although it had a dramatic ending with the death of Gary Speed, first of all I had this great relationship with him. Secondly although he was a relatively young and inexperienced coach he gave me all the freedom and made me responsible for developing a playing style and also the psychological coaching of the team NJ - there is no point. It's like debating with a wall (!) |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 10, 2013 12:25:34 GMT
Not sure what he offered us, was it simply the fitness side of things or was he the tactical brains behind Speedo? Verheijen and Roden concentrated on performance and training, Speed/Roberts were the main tacticians. Verheijen talks about tactics for wales. performance.fourfourtwo.com/tactics/build-from-the-backWales manager Gary Speed has confirmed Dutchman Raymond Verheijen as his new assistant manager. Verheijen, 39, is well-known for his expertise on tactics, planning and conditioning. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 12:46:35 GMT
Verheijen and Roden concentrated on performance and training, Speed/Roberts were the main tacticians. Verheijen talks about tactics for wales. performance.fourfourtwo.com/tactics/build-from-the-backWales manager Gary Speed has confirmed Dutchman Raymond Verheijen as his new assistant manager. Verheijen, 39, is well-known for his expertise on tactics, planning and conditioning. So he's not just a fitness bloke then? |
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Post by squatter1 on Oct 10, 2013 13:08:07 GMT
"err.....did you actually bother to review the link?"
I just read the link the website of the company set up by Dutch Ray in which he has written his own biography.
He's written two books about fitness and conditioning, and has been involved in plenty of squads as fitness guy.
The Wales Assistant Manager job was 'the next phase' for him - ie no longer just doing fitness/conditioning.
There is no mention of having been involved in a tactical role in any of his jobs (other than us).
He's a conditioning expert (consults to clubs across Europe in this capacity he says) who wants to get involved in coaching/managing a team. Wales was his first - and only so far it would seem - shot at this.
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Post by Tim P on Oct 10, 2013 13:13:20 GMT
So the great Raymondo is just a physio then? Why the clamour for him to be given some sort of managerial job?! Bizarre. Exactly. Bellamy may as well hire Dr Richard Steadman as an assistant, he helped get Bellamy fit time and again too. Plus comparing Hiddink/Verheijen and Bellamy/Verheijen is ridiculous. Whatever...Bellamy is praising this current crop like never before. In fact we've heard barely a peep out of him at the last few camps. TP is right, there is an inevitability around this now. But here's a thought: Coleman stays on but is told to accommodate Bellamy in the set-up with a view to being heir apparent. Feasible? No. I was 95% certain before, but as soon as I read Bellamy saying that he thought tactics could be 'tweaked' to get the best out of the players it became absolutely clear. He wants the job and will almost certainly get it very shortly. |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 10, 2013 13:41:28 GMT
"err.....did you actually bother to review the link?" I just read the link the website of the company set up by Dutch Ray in which he has written his own biography. He's written two books about fitness and conditioning, and has been involved in plenty of squads as fitness guy. The Wales Assistant Manager job was 'the next phase' for him - ie no longer just doing fitness/conditioning. There is no mention of having been involved in a tactical role in any of his jobs (other than us). He's a conditioning expert (consults to clubs across Europe in this capacity he says) who wants to get involved in coaching/managing a team. Wales was his first - and only so far it would seem - shot at this. You're right he was fitness coach up until wales but has also been assistant coach to Armenia, so not just a fitness coach. I posted a link with him talking about the welsh tactics and also mentioned the BBC website where it says 'Verheijen, 39, is well-known for his expertise on tactics, planning and conditioning.' People do move up the ladder in football, i mean Mourinho worked as a PE teacher  |
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Post by texan on Oct 10, 2013 13:41:35 GMT
Where did Texan get this info? Osian Roberts, during an UEFA B seminar in early 2011 he talked about how they were setting Wales out as one example of 'elite level' planning, also one of the 'A' side coaches during a Transition Workshop in Llandrillo last year discussed it with me. Verheijen's area of expertise IS performance related, as is Roden's, however that's not to say they didn't have any input into the tactical side of things, its not as black and white as saying someone's a "tactician only" or "physio only", there's a lot more interplay than that. Verheijen/Roden's performance work dictated how the team were going to be set up tactically for upcoming matches, so yes, all four had tactical discussions with each other, but they were led by Roberts and Speed with the other two feeding in, all four then coming to a consensus. They used a target system to develop the team. With this system each player is assessed on his own merits, skillset, ability, strengths and weaknesses identified (a coach sits down with the player and discusses the way forward, often using a compilation DVD of their best pieces of play at both club and national level as a motivator (show them what they're capable of etc...) I'm sure I read somewhere this was Verheijen with Wales), a training plan is then developed for that individual (Verheijen) intended to bring out his strengths and work on his weaknesses, a target is set for him for each session. Each player's plans are then dove-tailed together into groups (defenders, midfielders, forwards) and a group training plan (with targets) arranged (Verheijen) where they learn to combine their strengths into an effective unit. Each session is monitored (Wales' was the traffic light system) and the data (performance and ability related) analyzed accordingly. This data is then combined with the data about upcoming opposition and is used to combine the groups and create a 'team plan' where each group learns to combine their strengths to transition the ball from one group to the other. The players are given individual, group and team targets to achieve during a match to mark their progression, the idea being if all targets are met the team should theoretically win. The match data is then deconstructed, assessed and fed back into the system and training adjusted and targets reset for the next match. Theoretically this means that progression is visibly trackable and quantifiable from match to match, and every player feels a valued and vital part of a well-oiled machine as they're kept fully informed of where they're going and where they are in relation to the main target (Speed had a 2 year progression plan marked out). This system does virtually 'force' a team to disregard a fair few matches as they adjust, they could make good progress and hit most of their targets but still get turned over with ease. However the apparent belief is that once a team starts to improve and confidence begins to flow it's sustainable long-term. Once a team has progressed enough and reached that 'tipping point' they begin to improve exponentially and just play. Verheijen I'm certain has quite a bit of tactical knowledge to go along with his performance work and can contribute on that side of things, but I doubt he has enough knowledge to do it on his own...otherwise he'd have been a head coach long ago. Speed had completed his UEFA Pro under Roberts when he appointed Verheijen, and he brought Roberts along with him. Bellamy as far as I know hasn't completed anything and has no top-level coaching experience whatsoever, if another tactician comes in or Roberts stays there and Verheijen added, it may work. But a Bellamy/Verheijen could well fall flat on its arse...we'd have a team of very fit, highly passionate headless chickens! |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 10, 2013 13:48:41 GMT
Good answer and interesting!
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Post by squatter1 on Oct 10, 2013 13:57:56 GMT
Good post Texan.
Seems like neither Ray or Bellers would be sensible choices as number 1 realistically then.
Pulis/Bellers/Ray combo for me!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 14:20:14 GMT
Where did Texan get this info? Osian Roberts, during an UEFA B seminar in early 2011 he talked about how they were setting Wales out as one example of 'elite level' planning, also one of the 'A' side coaches during a Transition Workshop in Llandrillo last year discussed it with me. Verheijen's area of expertise IS performance related, as is Roden's, however that's not to say they didn't have any input into the tactical side of things, its not as black and white as saying someone's a "tactician only" or "physio only", there's a lot more interplay than that. Verheijen/Roden's performance work dictated how the team were going to be set up tactically for upcoming matches, so yes, all four had tactical discussions with each other, but they were led by Roberts and Speed with the other two feeding in, all four then coming to a consensus. They used a target system to develop the team. With this system each player is assessed on his own merits, skillset, ability, strengths and weaknesses identified (a coach sits down with the player and discusses the way forward, often using a compilation DVD of their best pieces of play at both club and national level as a motivator (show them what they're capable of etc...) I'm sure I read somewhere this was Verheijen with Wales), a training plan is then developed for that individual (Verheijen) intended to bring out his strengths and work on his weaknesses, a target is set for him for each session. Each player's plans are then dove-tailed together into groups (defenders, midfielders, forwards) and a group training plan (with targets) arranged (Verheijen) where they learn to combine their strengths into an effective unit. Each session is monitored (Wales' was the traffic light system) and the data (performance and ability related) analyzed accordingly. This data is then combined with the data about upcoming opposition and is used to combine the groups and create a 'team plan' where each group learns to combine their strengths to transition the ball from one group to the other. The players are given individual, group and team targets to achieve during a match to mark their progression, the idea being if all targets are met the team should theoretically win. The match data is then deconstructed, assessed and fed back into the system and training adjusted and targets reset for the next match. Theoretically this means that progression is visibly trackable and quantifiable from match to match, and every player feels a valued and vital part of a well-oiled machine as they're kept fully informed of where they're going and where they are in relation to the main target (Speed had a 2 year progression plan marked out). This system does virtually 'force' a team to disregard a fair few matches as they adjust, they could make good progress and hit most of their targets but still get turned over with ease. However the apparent belief is that once a team starts to improve and confidence begins to flow it's sustainable long-term. Once a team has progressed enough and reached that 'tipping point' they begin to improve exponentially and just play. Verheijen I'm certain has quite a bit of tactical knowledge to go along with his performance work and can contribute on that side of things, but I doubt he has enough knowledge to do it on his own...otherwise he'd have been a head coach long ago. Speed had completed his UEFA Pro under Roberts when he appointed Verheijen, and he brought Roberts along with him. Bellamy as far as I know hasn't completed anything and has no top-level coaching experience whatsoever, if another tactician comes in or Roberts stays there and Verheijen added, it may work. But a Bellamy/Verheijen could well fall flat on its arse...we'd have a team of very fit, highly passionate headless chickens! Thanks Texan - that has put a bit more flesh on the bones. So bellamy/ray/osian and AN Other could work - 2 already in the set up. ray to come back and add another and we can pick up where we left off. That would explain the curve under Speed including the performances at home to England & Australia and the improvement in the latter games. A bit more sophisticated than a Pulis model of waiting for possession for 10 minutes, hoofing it up to the centre forward and waiting to pick up the rebound. |
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Post by texan on Oct 10, 2013 14:29:54 GMT
Good post Texan. Seems like neither Ray or Bellers would be sensible choices as number 1 realistically then. Pulis/Bellers/Ray combo for me! I'm completely at odds with Verheijen's readiness to dismiss out-of-hand methods outside of his own, other methods have their merits too depending on the situation...however his do seem to work well with our lot and, having learnt a bit about what he actually did whilst with Wales I've softened my stance a bit over old Ray of late. I'd be ok with seeing him come back...he's still a big-mouthed, tubthumping little shit mind! My concern would be Bellamy, total lack of any qualifications whatsoever and a complete unknown quantity. He might surpise us all with his knowledge however so what do I know! Just hope the people on the inside (if they do) decide to appoint him, they do so for footballing reasons after receiving proof of his managerial abilities, not for any PR reasons. I'd like someone like Desailly myself, studied with the WFT at the same time as Speed, knows Roberts and the supposed 'Welsh Way' very well, known to have a great technical knowledge of the game, would get respect, currently kicking his heels doing punditry work. He might enjoy coming back to Wales and the people he studied under to take control of a project with players already schooled in the way he likes the game to be played? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 14:30:20 GMT
That to me sets out the impossible position that Coleman inherited, and what a terrible decision it was by the FAW to appoint him.
if you go back 80 pages on this board there were a lot of people who wanted continuity after Speed's death and all who I talk to at grass roots wanted continuity.
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Post by texan on Oct 10, 2013 14:50:02 GMT
That would explain the curve under Speed including the performances at home to England & Australia and the improvement in the latter games. A bit more sophisticated than a Pulis model of waiting for possession for 10 minutes, hoofing it up to the centre forward and waiting to pick up the rebound. What I was told last year also explains what's happened under Coleman. He tried to play exactly the same way and the same systems as Speed but it wasn't working, to be fair with good reason...our manager had just hanged himself! Nothing could have been done to lift that cloud, whoever the manager was. But he then changed tact and started planning game by game as he'd always done, his way, however he's kept the training plans the same. As Allen recently said, the way they train is virtually identical to the way they did under Speed, except one thing's missing...the context. There currently isn't a long-term plan in place, progress isn't mapped in any visible way and training/tactics haven't been adjusted to reflect the player's current circumstances. Yes they train the same way, but using regimes written by Verheijen/Roden for their 2010/11 counterparts. This is why we're lurching inconsistently from one game to the next with no sense of actual progress, mistakes sorted in one match being commited all over the show the next. We know the target system works, we've already witnessed it. Someone needs to come in...right now...rip it all up, reassess the team and restructure it for the 2013 players. Hopefully by September 2014 we'd be turning the corner again...perhaps this is what Bellamy means by 'tweaking'! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 15:10:13 GMT
That would explain the curve under Speed including the performances at home to England & Australia and the improvement in the latter games. A bit more sophisticated than a Pulis model of waiting for possession for 10 minutes, hoofing it up to the centre forward and waiting to pick up the rebound. What I was told last year also explains what's happened under Coleman. He tried to play exactly the same way and the same systems as Speed but it wasn't working, to be fair with good reason...our manager had just hanged himself! Nothing could have been done to lift that cloud, whoever the manager was. But he then changed tact and started planning game by game as he'd always done, his way, however he's kept the training plans the same. As Allen recently said, the way they train is virtually identical to the way they did under Speed, except one thing's missing...the context. There currently isn't a long-term plan in place, progress isn't mapped in any visible way and training/tactics haven't been adjusted to reflect the player's current circumstances. Yes they train the same way, but using regimes written by Verheijen/Roden for their 2010/11 counterparts. This is why we're lurching inconsistently from one game to the next with no sense of actual progress, mistakes sorted in one match being commited all over the show the next. We know the target system works, we've already witnessed it. Someone needs to come in...right now...rip it all up, reassess the team and restructure it for the 2013 players. Hopefully by September 2014 we'd be turning the corner again...perhaps this is what Bellamy means by 'tweaking'! At least its a young squad and most of them would just be familiarising themselves with it - it's not like the whole squad would be learning a brand new structure. |
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Post by texan on Oct 10, 2013 15:35:51 GMT
At least its a young squad and most of them would just be familiarising themselves with it - it's not like the whole squad would be learning a brand new structure. Indeed. |
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Post by flynnfan on Oct 10, 2013 15:50:06 GMT
Where did Texan get this info? Osian Roberts, during an UEFA B seminar in early 2011 he talked about how they were setting Wales out as one example of 'elite level' planning, also one of the 'A' side coaches during a Transition Workshop in Llandrillo last year discussed it with me. Verheijen's area of expertise IS performance related, as is Roden's, however that's not to say they didn't have any input into the tactical side of things, its not as black and white as saying someone's a "tactician only" or "physio only", there's a lot more interplay than that. Verheijen/Roden's performance work dictated how the team were going to be set up tactically for upcoming matches, so yes, all four had tactical discussions with each other, but they were led by Roberts and Speed with the other two feeding in, all four then coming to a consensus. They used a target system to develop the team. With this system each player is assessed on his own merits, skillset, ability, strengths and weaknesses identified (a coach sits down with the player and discusses the way forward, often using a compilation DVD of their best pieces of play at both club and national level as a motivator (show them what they're capable of etc...) I'm sure I read somewhere this was Verheijen with Wales), a training plan is then developed for that individual (Verheijen) intended to bring out his strengths and work on his weaknesses, a target is set for him for each session. Each player's plans are then dove-tailed together into groups (defenders, midfielders, forwards) and a group training plan (with targets) arranged (Verheijen) where they learn to combine their strengths into an effective unit. Each session is monitored (Wales' was the traffic light system) and the data (performance and ability related) analyzed accordingly. This data is then combined with the data about upcoming opposition and is used to combine the groups and create a 'team plan' where each group learns to combine their strengths to transition the ball from one group to the other. The players are given individual, group and team targets to achieve during a match to mark their progression, the idea being if all targets are met the team should theoretically win. The match data is then deconstructed, assessed and fed back into the system and training adjusted and targets reset for the next match. Theoretically this means that progression is visibly trackable and quantifiable from match to match, and every player feels a valued and vital part of a well-oiled machine as they're kept fully informed of where they're going and where they are in relation to the main target (Speed had a 2 year progression plan marked out). This system does virtually 'force' a team to disregard a fair few matches as they adjust, they could make good progress and hit most of their targets but still get turned over with ease. However the apparent belief is that once a team starts to improve and confidence begins to flow it's sustainable long-term. Once a team has progressed enough and reached that 'tipping point' they begin to improve exponentially and just play. Verheijen I'm certain has quite a bit of tactical knowledge to go along with his performance work and can contribute on that side of things, but I doubt he has enough knowledge to do it on his own...otherwise he'd have been a head coach long ago. Speed had completed his UEFA Pro under Roberts when he appointed Verheijen, and he brought Roberts along with him. Bellamy as far as I know hasn't completed anything and has no top-level coaching experience whatsoever, if another tactician comes in or Roberts stays there and Verheijen added, it may work. But a Bellamy/Verheijen could well fall flat on its arse...we'd have a team of very fit, highly passionate headless chickens! Fascinating. Thanks for this texan. |
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Post by georgetm1 on Oct 10, 2013 16:00:46 GMT
I fear Bellamy would be a complete flop if we put him in as manager for the next qualifiers. It really doesn't make sense when we have Pulis available to us. Ok, maybe the style of football Stoke played wasn't attractive but the guy got results and made them hard to beat. It isn't like the current Welsh team is exciting as they are dire and a total fucking bore to watch. I would rather we played hoofball and won than the non attacking boring crap that we have to witness now. Don't forget it took 39 mins against Serbia to even get a chance on goal, AT HOME. We may have got a couple of half decent results against Scotland but that the only pluses we have in this god awful qualifying campaign.
I remember seeing Pulis in an interview on Sports Wales a year or two ago and he said he would be interested to one day take the Wales job. The guy seemed very patriotic towards Wales and after seeing that I always saw him as the best Welsh man to take the job. The guy is a top manager and it would make sense to give him the job as he is available this very minute and we need someone who going to shake things up. It would be a stupid gamble to stick Bellamy in. Does he even have the relevant coaching badges? Would having Bellamy just throw away yet another qualifying campaign when we have someone more experienced in management available to us?
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Post by flynnfan on Oct 10, 2013 16:02:06 GMT
Exactly. Bellamy may as well hire Dr Richard Steadman as an assistant, he helped get Bellamy fit time and again too. Plus comparing Hiddink/Verheijen and Bellamy/Verheijen is ridiculous. Whatever...Bellamy is praising this current crop like never before. In fact we've heard barely a peep out of him at the last few camps. TP is right, there is an inevitability around this now. But here's a thought: Coleman stays on but is told to accommodate Bellamy in the set-up with a view to being heir apparent. Feasible? No. I was 95% certain before, but as soon as I read Bellamy saying that he thought tactics could be 'tweaked' to get the best out of the players it became absolutely clear. He wants the job and will almost certainly get it very shortly. That's exactly what I thought when I read the 'tweaked' comment too! I'm quite exctited by the idea of Bellamy becoming manager. Haven'T got a clue which way it'll go, but it would certianly be interesting. Welsh kids would actually know Wales has a football team with Bellamy in charge! This alone is exctiting to me. |
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Post by llannerch on Oct 11, 2013 11:58:10 GMT
Scoring on full Wales debut, the winner against Italy, scoring the winner in a south Wales derby, scoring at the Nou Camp after that golf club incident, netting the winner in a Manchester derby, getting City promoted....his script writer hasn't done too bad a job for Bellamy down the years.
So he'll net a late winner tonight won't he?
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Post by squatter1 on Oct 11, 2013 12:22:02 GMT
Red card and twats Coleman with a golf club in the dressing room.
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Post by llannerch on Oct 11, 2013 13:49:32 GMT
Red card and twats Coleman with a golf club in the dressing room. Every bit as likely |
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Post by scoop76 on Oct 11, 2013 22:44:35 GMT
Last minute Bellamy winner in Brussels?
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Post by abwales on Oct 11, 2013 22:46:07 GMT
Last minute consolation goal in Brussels?
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Post by scoop76 on Oct 11, 2013 22:46:58 GMT
Last minute consolation goal in Brussels? More likely. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2013 15:34:28 GMT
Bellamy has passed his UEFA A Licence with the FAW - I read somewhere today - can anyone confirm this?
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