Bale

[llannerch]

Oct 28, 2013 12:19:10 GMT dai said:

Just to note, I called him flopping before he moved to Madrid. Hope he returns to form, but the expectations, and now the added negative pressure from the media will work against him. Said it before and ill say it again, what an awful move.

"Groups with guitars are on the way out," Dick Rowe, Decca Records on why he didn't sign The Beatles

[Tim P]

Oh Dai, I do fear you have created a rod for your own back!

[flynnfan]

Oct 28, 2013 12:19:10 GMT dai said:

Just to note, I called him flopping before he moved to Madrid. Hope he returns to form, but the expectations, and now the added negative pressure from the media will work against him. Said it before and ill say it again, what an awful move.

Thing is Dai, you might be right. I doubt it, but you might be... but what I don't get is why you feel the need to come on here and post such a negative message in such a smug way...what purpose does it serve exactly? I presume you are Welsh and like football? So surely you actually WANT Bale to succeed, no? I don't get this whole 'I'm considerably more negative than you' thing amongst Welsh football fans, I really don't...I used to just think it was a Welsh thing, because we are such a miserable, defeated nation, but then it'S not because you don't really see it when it comes to rugby union...it's always 'the world class' Jamie Roberts or the 'amazing' George North etc... but Welsh footballers? Oh, they're all shit and overrated...I don't get it. I really don't.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24754836

[dai]

Hohoho! To be honest guys, I wrote that with a slight hint of winding people up. But.....I still believe in the long term the move will be bad for us. Guess it might sound very selfish as a fan, but I'd rather he stayed with a club like Tottenham, who would not be as difficult when it comes to international commitment. Madrid are doing the whole blaming Wales for his Madrid stalling up until now, and I believe they'll be a pain in the a** when it comes to future games. I truly regard Bale as being capable of going onto becoming the greatest Welsh footballer ever, even surpassing John Charles as a legend (yes I said it), just Madrid might prove a thorn in that.

And just to note flynnfan, I despise the rugby culture in Wales.

[toshfan]

dai's latest posting is one of recovery I think.

[dai]

Oct 31, 2013 13:38:03 GMT toshfan said:

dai's latest posting is one of recovery I think.

 One of recovery? I never mentioned that I like Welsh rugby on this forum.

[toshfan]

Oct 31, 2013 13:55:14 GMT dai said:

Oct 31, 2013 13:38:03 GMT toshfan said:

dai's latest posting is one of recovery I think.

 One of recovery? I never mentioned that I like Welsh rugby on this forum.

[Tim P]

Oct 31, 2013 13:08:41 GMT dai said:

Hohoho! To be honest guys, I wrote that with a slight hint of winding people up. But.....I still believe in the long term the move will be bad for us. Guess it might sound very selfish as a fan, but I'd rather he stayed with a club like Tottenham, who would not be as difficult when it comes to international commitment. Madrid are doing the whole blaming Wales for his Madrid stalling up until now, and I believe they'll be a pain in the a** when it comes to future games. I truly regard Bale as being capable of going onto becoming the greatest Welsh footballer ever, even surpassing John Charles as a legend (yes I said it), just Madrid might prove a thorn in that.

And just to note flynnfan, I despise the rugby culture in Wales.

Ha, fair enough. It doesn't take much to wind people up!

Seriously though, we'll have less trouble from Real than we would from Spurs.

[flynnfan]

Oct 31, 2013 14:46:37 GMT Tim P said:

Oct 31, 2013 13:08:41 GMT dai said:

Hohoho! To be honest guys, I wrote that with a slight hint of winding people up. But.....I still believe in the long term the move will be bad for us. Guess it might sound very selfish as a fan, but I'd rather he stayed with a club like Tottenham, who would not be as difficult when it comes to international commitment. Madrid are doing the whole blaming Wales for his Madrid stalling up until now, and I believe they'll be a pain in the a** when it comes to future games. I truly regard Bale as being capable of going onto becoming the greatest Welsh footballer ever, even surpassing John Charles as a legend (yes I said it), just Madrid might prove a thorn in that.

And just to note flynnfan, I despise the rugby culture in Wales.

Ha, fair enough. It doesn't take much to wind people up!

Seriously though, we'll have less trouble from Real than we would from Spurs.

I don't think we'll have too many probs with Bale's availability (when fit) either. I think, with virtually the whole Madrid squad away on international duty, he'll want to be away too.. and come back to Wales to visit family and friends...and he loves playing for Wales. You can just tell.

[dai]

I think that's one amazing thing that he loves playing for us, hope that never changes.

[Deleted]

On tonight's evidence I'm not afraid to put my hand up and say that I still think this move will not end well for Bale and Wales. Well, financially it will, but in terms of his reputation I can see that taking a bit of a battering.

You could count on the fingers of two hands the number of touches Bale had tonight, it was a testament to his ability that he used such a paucity of opportunity to still provide 2 assists. But there was no goal threat and little opportunity to put in the sort of performances that made him the 3rd best player in the world. At Spurs he progressed from a full back, to a winger, to a maverick with no real fixed position, picking up the ball all over the final third and scoring with ease from long range.
Real Madrid are so packed with talented individuals that Bale has found himself back in the role of orthodox right winger and to me in that role he looks peripheral, isolated and seemingly not a part of the rest of the team.

For me, this is an absolutely scandalous waste of a prodigious talent. You wouldn't take Messi and play him on the wing or in some other position where he can't affect the game as much, for me its the same with Bale, back in the day winger was his position but he offers so much more than that. He needs a team built round him, at Spurs the players always looked for Bale- tonight this seemed to be the absolute opposite, I noted that only Alonso seemed to pick Bale out the rest only involved him when they absolutely had to.

So this is not a criticism of his talent, people are saying he will get better, hes not fit etc, when in fact there seemed to be nothing wrong with him tonight as evidenced by what he did when he was occasionally given the ball. The problem is that this environment is massively different to the one that cultivated his talent at Spurs and he is really not being involved enough both by the team and the manager. I don't think he will fail at Madrid, he is doing all that he can do at the moment at least, I just think that the lack of powerhouse performances will be perceived as failure when really he won't ever be given an opportunity to be the heart and soul of that side, at least not while Ronaldo is there and it seems that Ronaldo is not going anywhere. I imagine he will eventually end up at a team where he will be the main man again and from a Welsh point of view I hope this is sooner rather than later. I don't think it helps us for Bale's talent to be so woefully under used, Champions league football or not.

[hookd]

He is playing second fiddle to Ronaldo. Just like in midweek. Bale scores 2 but Ronaldo insists he takes the penalty! He can;t makes the runs Ronaldo makes, can't take free kicks, hence he is a bit part player now. I just hope Ronaldo gets a long injury lay off to give Bale a chance to establish himself and play with less restrictions

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2013 21:01:57 GMT hookd said:

He is playing second fiddle to Ronaldo. Just like in midweek. Bale scores 2 but Ronaldo insists he takes the penalty! He can;t makes the runs Ronaldo makes, can't take free kicks, hence he is a bit part player now. I just hope Ronaldo gets a long injury lay off to give Bale a chance to establish himself and play with less restrictions

Yes, there is more than an element of that about it too. It would be interesting to see how Madrid would set up if Ronaldo was injured and if Bale was then given more responsiblity, that would still require his team mates to pass to him though....

[northerndragon]

I think its to soon to tell whether it is a good move or not, he's only started 4 games. Madrid played him as a striker against Barca, that shows that they are willing to experiment with him. They will learn more about what he is capable of with time, and his team mates will too. It is frustrating that Ronaldo decides who takes the free kicks, but hopefully if Ancelotti has any sense, thats not going to last forever. He is still having to work with the paradigm Mourinho created, where Ronaldo is basically the boss. To come in and stamp that out straight away would have unsettled Ronaldo, hopefully the culture will change the further into Ancelotti's tenure. There is certain areas of the pitch where Bale would be better than Ronaldo at free kicks, and vice versa. The idea that a player, who isn't even the captain, should have so much power is very counter productive, and is surely not the best thing in the world for team spirit.

[toshfan]

Nov 2, 2013 20:57:22 GMT @storm said:

You could count on the fingers of two hands the number of touches Bale had tonight, it was a testament to his ability that he used such a paucity of opportunity to still provide 2 assists.

Whilst on balance I am with you and see where you are coming from, there is an argument that this equips our best player even more for international point of view as there are less chances to turn it on at international level as compared to the EPL.

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2013 23:20:13 GMT toshfan said:

Nov 2, 2013 20:57:22 GMT @storm said:

You could count on the fingers of two hands the number of touches Bale had tonight, it was a testament to his ability that he used such a paucity of opportunity to still provide 2 assists.

Whilst on balance I am with you and see where you are coming from, there is an argument that this equips our best player even more for international point of view as there are less chances to turn it on at international level as compared to the EPL.

Not sure I agree with that, the game is as easy as you make it and Bale has been able to reprise his Spurs form at international level and carve out plenty of opportunities to run at retreating defences.

Wales needs the Gareth Bale of Spurs last season, we don't need (as much) the Gareth Bale of Real Madrid who has a mandate to run down the wing all day putting in crosses. Bale is capable of so much more than that, it's a shocking waste of his ability.

[toshfan]

Nov 2, 2013 23:40:04 GMT @storm said:

Nov 2, 2013 23:20:13 GMT toshfan said:

Whilst on balance I am with you and see where you are coming from, there is an argument that this equips our best player even more for international point of view as there are less chances to turn it on at international level as compared to the EPL.

Not sure I agree with that, the game is as easy as you make it and Bale has been able to reprise his Spurs form at international level and carve out plenty of opportunities to run at retreating defences.

Wales needs the Gareth Bale of Spurs last season, we don't need (as much) the Gareth Bale of Real Madrid who has a mandate to run down the wing all day putting in crosses. Bale is capable of so much more than that, it's a shocking waste of his ability.

Why I am less worried about this than you are is that I think Bale with Wales will be a different player to the one at Real Madrid. Expect more freedom with the former.

But going back to the advantage, it just got me thinking about players who have come in from abroad over the years and scored a hatful as they had so many more changes in the EPL.

[abwales]

I don't think we are anywhere near at a point where his performances for us will be affected by what is happening with him at Madrid. I don't think playing with less responsibility every week will mean he's less effective when playing with much more responsibility for us.

At this moment in time I think the move has and will continue to be a good move for him and for us. He'll be a better player for playing in a much more technical league.

[Tim P]

I want to see Bale challenged, to learn, to keep improving. I want to see his character tested, to be put under immense pressure, to make him a true winner.

This will happen at Real. It would not happen at Spurs in the epl.

[texan]

Nov 3, 2013 13:32:01 GMT Tim P said:

I want to see Bale challenged, to learn, to keep improving. I want to see his character tested, to be put under immense pressure, to make him a true winner.

This will happen at Real. It would not happen at Spurs in the epl.

Look no further than England, proof's all there.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2013 13:32:01 GMT Tim P said:

I want to see Bale challenged, to learn, to keep improving. I want to see his character tested, to be put under immense pressure, to make him a true winner.

This will happen at Real. It would not happen at Spurs in the epl.

I think thats debatable, is running down the wing and putting the odd cross in improving on the level he was at with Spurs? Certainly domestically I don't think so, contrary to popular belief I don't think he will be tested in La Liga anymore than he was at Spurs, La Liga is not a hot bed of defensively sound teams, the Champions league is the level that will be a step up from what he was getting at Spurs.

He certainly does not look the same player at this point in time, even though on rare occasions you can see he still has the ability. I want to see Bale doing what he was doing to West Ham against Juventus in the champions league, ain't gonna happen though because he has to keep out of Ronaldo's way.

Thats the only criticism I have of Bale in all this, he is doing what is asked of him and it looks like he is holding back so he doesn't upset the established players. But there is going to come a time where if he really wants to make a name for himself in Madrid its going to have to be shit or bust and hes going to have to forget what the manager tells him to do and forget what Ronaldo thinks and go out there and take the game by the bollocks as he was doing for Spurs, hunting all over the final 3rd for the ball and running the game rather than hugging the touch line and playing an orthodox role that sees much of the game pass him by.

[Tim P]

Nov 3, 2013 14:27:36 GMT @storm said:

Nov 3, 2013 13:32:01 GMT Tim P said:

I want to see Bale challenged, to learn, to keep improving. I want to see his character tested, to be put under immense pressure, to make him a true winner.

This will happen at Real. It would not happen at Spurs in the epl.

I think thats debatable, is running down the wing and putting the odd cross in improving on the level he was at with Spurs? Certainly domestically I don't think so, contrary to popular belief I don't think he will be tested in La Liga anymore than he was at Spurs, La Liga is not a hot bed of defensively sound teams, the Champions league is the level that will be a step up from what he was getting at Spurs.

He certainly does not look the same player at this point in time, even though on rare occasions you can see he still has the ability. I want to see Bale doing what he was doing to West Ham against Juventus in the champions league, ain't gonna happen though because he has to keep out of Ronaldo's way.

Thats the only criticism I have of Bale in all this, he is doing what is asked of him and it looks like he is holding back so he doesn't upset the established players. But there is going to come a time where if he really wants to make a name for himself in Madrid its going to have to be shit or bust and hes going to have to forget what the manager tells him to do and forget what Ronaldo thinks and go out there and take the game by the bollocks as he was doing for Spurs, hunting all over the final 3rd for the ball and running the game rather than hugging the touch line and playing an orthodox role that sees much of the game pass him by.

Absolutely bonkers stuff, Storm.

He didn't have a pre season, he's been injured, he's the record signing at the highest profile team in the world... and his stats are already fantastic. Just imagine when he is fit.

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2013 15:21:21 GMT Tim P said:

Nov 3, 2013 14:27:36 GMT @storm said:

I think thats debatable, is running down the wing and putting the odd cross in improving on the level he was at with Spurs? Certainly domestically I don't think so, contrary to popular belief I don't think he will be tested in La Liga anymore than he was at Spurs, La Liga is not a hot bed of defensively sound teams, the Champions league is the level that will be a step up from what he was getting at Spurs.

He certainly does not look the same player at this point in time, even though on rare occasions you can see he still has the ability. I want to see Bale doing what he was doing to West Ham against Juventus in the champions league, ain't gonna happen though because he has to keep out of Ronaldo's way.

Thats the only criticism I have of Bale in all this, he is doing what is asked of him and it looks like he is holding back so he doesn't upset the established players. But there is going to come a time where if he really wants to make a name for himself in Madrid its going to have to be shit or bust and hes going to have to forget what the manager tells him to do and forget what Ronaldo thinks and go out there and take the game by the bollocks as he was doing for Spurs, hunting all over the final 3rd for the ball and running the game rather than hugging the touch line and playing an orthodox role that sees much of the game pass him by.

Absolutely bonkers stuff, Storm.

He didn't have a pre season, he's been injured, he's the record signing at the highest profile team in the world... and his stats are already fantastic. Just imagine when he is fit.

Did you see the Vallecano match? I didn't see any significant fitness issues, he may not be at optimum sharpness yet, but I don't know what that extra 5-10% would have brought to the game anyway seeing as everything he did was largely ignored by his team mates and he spent most of the match wandering about on the right side while the ball constantly gravitated to Ronaldo on the left. I don't think he could have done anymore given what little possession he had, apart from as I say breaking out of his role and forcing himself on the game but he seems reluctant to do that.

Maybe he is just settling in and not treading on everyone's toes- yet, but I can't help but look at Ramsey getting all the headlines now and wondering what happened to the Gareth Bale who was singlehandedly winning matches for club and country. It was a pale imitation of that player who played against Vallecano and that's as much to do with Real as it is to do with fitness, imo.

[llannerch]

Nov 3, 2013 14:27:36 GMT @storm said:

take the game by the bollocks as he was doing for Spurs,

Because he invariably had to. There are plenty to choose from at RM who can do that. I find the conservatism of those who wanted Bale to remain a big fish in a small pond, rather than become a potentially huge fish in a huge pond, very odd. The key word there is 'potentially', of course, but so far so good. Ronaldo was good, not great, when he first arrived at Man Utd but got better and better. He has since moved onto a different plane again. Why can't the parallel be valid for Bale?

[Tim P]

Ludicrously emotional stuff there, Storm.

Ramsey is playing well because he had an uninterrupted preseason and has finally overcome an awful injury. Bale has had no preseason and is at the biggest football club on earth.

The extra 5-10% is incredibly important - this is elite level sports.

All this being said, his assist, penalty and goal stats are still excellent.

[squatter1]

Funny how people see games differently...

www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/gareth-bale-goes-from-zero-to-hero-after-sensational-display-in-real-madrids-32-win-at-rayo-vallecano-8919578.html

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2013 16:18:40 GMT @storm said:

Nov 3, 2013 15:21:21 GMT Tim P said:

Absolutely bonkers stuff, Storm.

He didn't have a pre season, he's been injured, he's the record signing at the highest profile team in the world... and his stats are already fantastic. Just imagine when he is fit.

Did you see the Vallecano match? I didn't see any significant fitness issues, he may not be at optimum sharpness yet, but I don't know what that extra 5-10% would have brought to the game anyway seeing as everything he did was largely ignored by his team mates and he spent most of the match wandering about on the right side while the ball constantly gravitated to Ronaldo on the left. I don't think he could have done anymore given what little possession he had, apart from as I say breaking out of his role and forcing himself on the game but he seems reluctant to do that.

Maybe he is just settling in and not treading on everyone's toes- yet, but I can't help but look at Ramsey getting all the headlines now and wondering what happened to the Gareth Bale who was singlehandedly winning matches for club and country. It was a pale imitation of that player who played against Vallecano and that's as much to do with Real as it is to do with fitness, imo.

Why don't we have this conversation at the end of the season - when Bale has just won Madrid the CL.

[Deleted]

Nov 4, 2013 10:30:45 GMT squatter1 said:

Funny how people see games differently...

www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/gareth-bale-goes-from-zero-to-hero-after-sensational-display-in-real-madrids-32-win-at-rayo-vallecano-8919578.html

Well yeah, the fact he provided two assists spoke volumes for his talent given that he saw little of the ball. It begs the question why they don't give it to him more often, in fact it's almost perverse that they seem to insist on making life difficult for themselves just so they can feed Ronaldo's ego.

As for good link up between the front 3 that was contrary to what I saw. The link up was a one way channel where bale provided yet only seemed to receive passes from Alonso. I challenge anyone to watch that match and show me video where benzema and Ronaldo looked to link up with bale, or prove to me that bale had more than 10 or so touches in the entire match.

To get 2 assists under those circumstances was very impressive indeed.

[Deleted]

Nov 4, 2013 10:58:49 GMT @baresi said:

Nov 3, 2013 16:18:40 GMT @storm said:

Did you see the Vallecano match? I didn't see any significant fitness issues, he may not be at optimum sharpness yet, but I don't know what that extra 5-10% would have brought to the game anyway seeing as everything he did was largely ignored by his team mates and he spent most of the match wandering about on the right side while the ball constantly gravitated to Ronaldo on the left. I don't think he could have done anymore given what little possession he had, apart from as I say breaking out of his role and forcing himself on the game but he seems reluctant to do that.

Maybe he is just settling in and not treading on everyone's toes- yet, but I can't help but look at Ramsey getting all the headlines now and wondering what happened to the Gareth Bale who was singlehandedly winning matches for club and country. It was a pale imitation of that player who played against Vallecano and that's as much to do with Real as it is to do with fitness, imo.

Why don't we have this conversation at the end of the season - when Bale has just won Madrid the CL.

Madrid aren't good enough to win the champions league, they are all at sea in defence and were given a very hard time on saturday by a team bottom of the league and that everyone else has whipped out of sight.

They may make the semi final if they are lucky, but Bale or not Bayern would give them a roasting if they played tonight and Dortmund and Barcelona would also be clear winners as well.

[texan]

Bale was mostly left in limbo during the protracted transfer, he's shipped his family to an unfamiliar country with an alien culture/language, he didn't kick a ball in anger all summer and started his season a full month after his new team mates, he's only recently begun to bed-in and regaing his general fitness completing 90 mins. It'll take a couple more weeks of continuous play to become fully match-fit and get his bearings/targeting back up to scratch, and at least a couple of months to get comfortable within the team and confident enough to fully assert himself.

Its a very, very brave move for a young lad to make, one which (if he takes it fully) will see him grow as a player and as an individual. The Premiership's a mad bubble where a footballer can potentially become a great player, but as Llannerch said he'd usually be a big fish in a small pond.

Ramsey needs to be next...