Tom Bradshaw

[welshiron]

Apr 4, 2016 14:13:54 GMT ae15 said:

Up to when Conor Washington signed for QPR in January he had scored 10 goals for Peterborough and Bradshaw had scored 9. Now Washington is scoring against very decent teams at international level of a similar standard to those we are playing at the Euros. He hasn't yet scored for QPR either though! It doesn't matter what level these guys play at, internationals are very different and Bradshaw has a proven goalscoring record.

Washington has scored 1 goal so to say he is scoring goals against decent teams is a little premature, he was crap against us.

[welshiron]

Bradshaw USED TO play for Shrewsbury, so did Joe Hart. How does his previous club back up your point? Absolutely no relevance to anything.

Had to laugh at this one, a few points on this,

1. How many caps did he get whilst at Shrewsbury

2 Hart went to Man City from their as a youngster, Bradshaw went to Walsall as a reject

3.Bradshaw is apparently being chased by Birmingham, Reading and Backburn, at that age Hart was a full international


Stupid comparison in my opinion.

I really hope Bradshaw develops into the striker we need but so far has done nothing to prove he is better than Vokes, HRK or Church, an arguement could be had to who is better Morison or Bradshaw (look at their records before dismissing)

[jbt95]

Apr 5, 2016 10:37:10 GMT welshiron said:

Bradshaw USED TO play for Shrewsbury, so did Joe Hart. How does his previous club back up your point? Absolutely no relevance to anything.

Had to laugh at this one, a few points on this,

1. How many caps did he get whilst at Shrewsbury

2 Hart went to Man City from their as a youngster, Bradshaw went to Walsall as a reject

3.Bradshaw is apparently being chased by Birmingham, Reading and Backburn, at that age Hart was a full international


Stupid comparison in my opinion.

I really hope Bradshaw develops into the striker we need but so far has done nothing to prove he is better than Vokes, HRK or Church, an arguement could be had to who is better Morison or Bradshaw (look at their records before dismissing)

Morison is now early 30s, he is not going to get any better.

[alarch]

I notice that the question of who plays the number 10 role in a 3-5-2 if Bale is injured is being ignored by most on here. We have HRK, Vokes and Church to lead the line - but who, apart from Bradshaw, can play the deeper lying striker's role? Based on the last two friendlies Lawrence isn't suitable (yet - but may be worth a place for what he offers out wide), but none of the possible number 9's are suitable for the number 10 role.

[alarch]

Sentiment can only play a limited role in the decision-making here. There are far better and more useful players than Church who may miss out on squad selection. Take Dave Edwards - he may not make the squad even though he was our probably our best player over the Cyprus/Israel double-header. Are people saying that other squad members would be more affected by Church's omission than Edwards'?

I'd like to think that the main concern of the squad members is having sufficient calibre in the squad to achieve the aim of winning matches.

[iot]

Apr 5, 2016 10:56:30 GMT alarch said:

I notice that the question of who plays the number 10 role in a 3-5-2 if Bale is injured is being ignored by most on here. We have HRK, Vokes and Church to lead the line - but who, apart from Bradshaw, can play the deeper lying striker's role? Based on the last two friendlies Lawrence isn't suitable (yet - but may be worth a place for what he offers out wide), but none of the possible number 9's are suitable for the number 10 role.

I don't think we'll be playing a 3-5-2 formation, it's far more likely to be the way we set up for most games in the qualifiers i.e. a 5-2-2-1 formation with the centre halves and wbs; the two Joes in front; and Bale and Rambo behind the forward player. In my mind, the battle for the guy up front is between HRK, Vokes, and Church. Behind him, if one of Bale or Rambo is unavailable, Joniesta would probably be next in line (that's where he played against Ukraine). I'm not sure if Bradshaw could play in that position, I've always thought he's an out and out striker but could be wrong...

[Deleted]

Apr 5, 2016 11:00:52 GMT alarch said:

Sentiment can only play a limited role in the decision-making here. There are far better and more useful players than Church who may miss out on squad selection. Take Dave Edwards - he may not make the squad even though he was our probably our best player over the Cyprus/Israel double-header. Are people saying that other squad members would be more affected by Church's omission than Edwards'?

I'd like to think that the main concern of the squad members is having sufficient calibre in the squad to achieve the aim of winning matches.

Sadly I rather fear Trendy et al are all on the money with regards to Church being picked largely on the basis of morale because his good games for Wales are very few and far between. I am all for Together Stronger up to a certain point but when it is used to justify the selection of players who struggle to make a case for their inclusion on merit then I see it becoming a hindrance.

For me, this demeans the prestige of the finals itself if you are not taking the best players available to you in favour of ones that are more likely to keep your top quality players with smiles on their faces. You are basically picking water carriers.

[iot]

Apr 5, 2016 11:00:52 GMT alarch said:

Sentiment can only play a limited role in the decision-making here. There are far better and more useful players than Church who may miss out on squad selection. Take Dave Edwards - he may not make the squad even though he was our probably our best player over the Cyprus/Israel double-header. Are people saying that other squad members would be more affected by Church's omission than Edwards'?

I'd like to think that the main concern of the squad members is having sufficient calibre in the squad to achieve the aim of winning matches.

'Sentiment can only play a limited role in the decision-making here.'
It's not to do with sentiment, it's to do with pragmatism. The squad are going to be together for 3-4 weeks so ensuring they get on with each other is probably quite important. Dumping Church for a newbie might affect their morale and isn't a risk worth taking. I'm not sure why you bring up Dave Edwards in a discussion of Church vs Bradshaw - that's probably more relevant for a discussion of Edwards vs Huws/Vaughan.


'I'd like to think that the main concern of the squad members is having sufficient calibre in the squad to achieve the aim of winning matches.'

That probably is their main concern but it doesn't mean they won't have other concerns - they are human after all. Having a mate dropped for the first time from a dream they've all shared for over a decade, in place of an unproven League 1 striker playing for Walsall might affect them, however much they might not want it to. 

In terms of calibre, it is far from clear-cut that Bradshaw would add value and the greatest likelihood, in my opinion, is neither will have any impact on the field. Bearing that in mind, it's probably better to do what's best off the field in this case. 

[iot]

Apr 5, 2016 11:22:04 GMT @storm said:

Apr 5, 2016 11:00:52 GMT alarch said:

Sentiment can only play a limited role in the decision-making here. There are far better and more useful players than Church who may miss out on squad selection. Take Dave Edwards - he may not make the squad even though he was our probably our best player over the Cyprus/Israel double-header. Are people saying that other squad members would be more affected by Church's omission than Edwards'?

I'd like to think that the main concern of the squad members is having sufficient calibre in the squad to achieve the aim of winning matches.

Sadly I rather fear Trendy et al are all on the money with regards to Church being picked largely on the basis of morale because his good games for Wales are very few and far between. I am all for Together Stronger up to a certain point but when it is used to justify the selection of players who struggle to make a case for their inclusion on merit then I see it becoming a hindrance.

For me, this demeans the prestige of the finals itself if you are not taking the best players available to you in favour of ones that are more likely to keep your top quality players with smiles on their faces. You are basically picking water carriers.

Wow, so picking Church would now 'demean the prestige of the finals itself'. This is starting to get silly.

Coleman will pick the squad he thinks will collectively represent our country best in the finals. There are multiple considerations for selection decisions and it is not unheard of for managers to make decisions based on more than purely the calibre of each individual available to them. Mourinho chose not to pick Balotelli, for example, when he was in charge of Inter because he was a troublemaker. I'm not suggesting Bradshaw is a troublemaker but it's nonsense for people to suggest these sort of considerations shouldn't be taken into account.

[alarch]

Apr 5, 2016 11:27:06 GMT iot said:

I'm not sure why you bring up Dave Edwards in a discussion of Church vs Bradshaw - that's probably more relevant for a discussion of Edwards vs Huws/Vaughan.

It's the assertion that you, and others, make that Church's "clubability" is an important consideration for his squad inclusion that makes comparison's with other squad players, whatever their position, relevant. Is Church liked more than Edwards, or other squad players who have actually made a contribution on the pitch during qualifying? Should that be the decisive factor here? If everything else was equal then that argument would have some merit. In Fôn Williams' case this line of argument carries a lot weight simply because it's very unlikely that any 3rd choice goalie will get game time. We don't have that luxury with our strikers.

You could be right to a degree about our formation - but I'd be worried if either Lawrence or Joniesta is expected to play the number 10 role. Neither were able to impress from that position against Ukraine - the distance from Allen/Huws to Joniesta/Lawrence being too great. Joniesta is a CAM not a number 10 - and works best between the lines facing goal.

We could adopt formations that obviate the need for a number 10, but there's a real danger of us becoming too limited and predictable. We need Plans C and D as well as the tried and tested (and studied) Plans A (3-5-2 or variations thereof) and Plan B (4-2-3-1).

[richierich333]

Apr 5, 2016 10:37:10 GMT welshiron said:

Bradshaw USED TO play for Shrewsbury, so did Joe Hart. How does his previous club back up your point? Absolutely no relevance to anything.

Had to laugh at this one, a few points on this,

1. How many caps did he get whilst at Shrewsbury

2 Hart went to Man City from their as a youngster, Bradshaw went to Walsall as a reject

3.Bradshaw is apparently being chased by Birmingham, Reading and Backburn, at that age Hart was a full international


Stupid comparison in my opinion.

I really hope Bradshaw develops into the striker we need but so far has done nothing to prove he is better than Vokes, HRK or Church, an arguement could be had to who is better Morison or Bradshaw (look at their records before dismissing)

Nothing funny here.  Who decides at what point they stop being a youngster? Certainly not you.  How old was Vardy when he made his debut for England and where was he playing when he was Bradshaw's age? (Conference)

Stupid retort in my opinion.

[richierich333]

I'm happy to be proven wrong but Church will do absolutely nothing at the tournament which we all deep down know (even the guys supporting his inclusion). I don't think there is another player going to this tournament (possible OFW which I'm not bothered by) who is going because he's popular with the other guys and not picked on his footballing ability.

[alarch]

Apr 5, 2016 10:37:10 GMT welshiron said:

Bradshaw went to Walsall as a reject

Bradshaw signed from Shrewsbury when they were relegated to League 2, so I'm not sure where you get the "reject" bit from.

Incidentally, Bradshaw's scoring rate in the last two seasons is better than a goal every two games - which is widely accepted as the mark of a top striker. Before you point out that he's gained that record at League One level, that's better than no record at any level.

[umcb14]

I actually think the whole 'team spirit' thing is slightly irrelevant anyway. I was critical of Coleman for not giving Bradshaw more of a chance in the friendlies - but that's gone now, so you've got to go with current form.

If we had to start a game with one of them, no I wouldn't look forward to it being Church, but as has been pointed out, that's extremely unlikely anyway. Church did come on vs Northern Ireland, made a good run, won a penalty, and scored it confidently. And that's the best piece of form over the two games. You then look at club level, and Church is consistently scoring for Aberdeen (did so again last weekend) - whilst I'm not a fan of the SPL, it's certainly a higher standard than League 1. If Ward's form at Aberdeen earlier in the season was good enough to earn him praise, you can't then discount Church's form there.

Church being a good penalty taker is also an important factor I think, as it could come down to that, and I'd rather he was taking one than Bradshaw. So even if you completely ignore Church's advantage when it comes to team spirit, he's still ahead of Bradshaw for the role that they'll be playing.

[alarch]

Have you seen Bradshaw's penalties in the goal highlights for the last two seasons? Every penalty (yes every one) - he sends the goalie the wrong way. That shows a tremendous measure of composure. Church's penalty was good - but only just beat the goalie. So if we were to make the decision on who should go based on penalty taking capabilities...

[Deleted]

Apr 5, 2016 13:58:40 GMT richierich333 said:

I'm happy to be proven wrong but Church will do absolutely nothing at the tournament which we all deep down know (even the guys supporting his inclusion). I don't think there is another player going to this tournament (possible OFW which I'm not bothered by) who is going because he's popular with the other guys and not picked on his footballing ability.

Yes, I wonder how many other countries are taking players who clearly add nothing to the team on the pitch and are selected because they are a good character to have in the dressing room. Perhaps Church does an hour of stand up comedy while they are all getting changed to get them in a good mood.

[alarch]

Is the SPL of a higher standard than League One? Debatable. Celtic are a top Championship, bottom Premier League outfit at best. Then you have a gulf between them and the rest. I would guess that the average for the league is probably lower Championship at best.

4 goals in 8 games is decent - but how does that compare to Bradshaw's 32 goals from 63 appearances over two seasons? Short term streak versus consistent goal getting. Gomis scored 4 goals for Swansea at the start of the season - and hasn't since. So a short scoring streak doesn't provide much of an evidential basis for squad inclusion.

[Deleted]

Apr 5, 2016 14:13:15 GMT umcb14 said:

I actually think the whole 'team spirit' thing is slightly irrelevant anyway. I was critical of Coleman for not giving Bradshaw more of a chance in the friendlies - but that's gone now, so you've got to go with current form.

If we had to start a game with one of them, no I wouldn't look forward to it being Church, but as has been pointed out, that's extremely unlikely anyway. Church did come on vs Northern Ireland, made a good run, won a penalty, and scored it confidently. And that's the best piece of form over the two games. You then look at club level, and Church is consistently scoring for Aberdeen (did so again last weekend) - whilst I'm not a fan of the SPL, it's certainly a higher standard than League 1. If Ward's form at Aberdeen earlier in the season was good enough to earn him praise, you can't then discount Church's form there.

Church being a good penalty taker is also an important factor I think, as it could come down to that, and I'd rather he was taking one than Bradshaw. So even if you completely ignore Church's advantage when it comes to team spirit, he's still ahead of Bradshaw for the role that they'll be playing.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. There are obviously decent enough teams in there like Celtic and Aberdeen, but the crap st the bottom of the table would probably struggle against league one opposition.

And lets be fair here, isn't it funny how Church has his chance at Reading, Charlton and MK Dons and yet suddenly finds his scoring boots at Aberdeen? This suggests to me he has perhaps found his natural level...and it ain't the Championship.

[umcb14]

Apr 5, 2016 15:31:47 GMT alarch said:

Have you seen Bradshaw's penalties in the goal highlights for the last two seasons? Every penalty (yes every one) - he sends the goalie the wrong way. That shows a tremendous measure of composure. Church's penalty was good - but only just beat the goalie. So if we were to make the decision on who should go based on penalty taking capabilities...

No, admittedly not. But sending the goalie the wrong way is luck really, isn't it, it's 50/50, unless he waits until the last second like Hazard? If so that is very impressive. I'd still prefer Church in a shoot-out, I still think experience counts a lot in that situation. The pressure on Bradshaw in a shoot-out situation, especially if he had been controversially selected over Church, would be huge.

But that's a very hypothetical argument anyway, I still think Church is in pole position regardless of penalties, he can't do more than score for his club at the moment, and for us in the friendlies. You'd have to have very strong reasons to drop a long time member of the squad for someone new. Church obviously has his limitations and isn't good enough to play 90 mins at this level, but to drop him from the squad now would be a bit extreme for me.

Don't get me wrong though, I absolutely believe that Bradshaw will be more than a decent player, and should start to be part of the set-up from the start of the WC qualifiers, probably at the expense of Church.

[umcb14]

I'd say so, yes. Aberdeen are the closest thing to Celtic, who despite struggling recently, have done well in the Champions League on occasion. It was a massive one off but I'd like to see a League 1 team beating Barcelona no matter how lucky they get. And like I said, Ward was getting plaudits for his Aberdeen performances, so you've got to be fair in that regard. I'm not saying that Bradshaw's level is definitely League 1, and it's very possible that he will be a better player than Church, but at the moment the evidence isn't there, or certainly not enough to choose him for a major championship.

[Deleted]

Playing at one of the top two/three clubs in the SPL it is so much easier to shine as it's not just the individual player, but every individual player in the team that is stronger than the comparatively poorer opposition. The obvious problem in judging talent in the SPL is that there is such a footballing class divide among the teams. It's hard to make a comparison with the English leagues.

Hopefully the Welsh staff saw enough positive things in Bradshaw during the training sessions that at least has him in contention. Assuming they liked what they saw. The thing is though, in one of the recent interviews with Coleman on the FAW youtube channel, he said he had a pretty conclusive idea of what his ideal 23 would be. I think we all know more or less what that squad might look like and doubt Bradshaw would be in it.

But who knows, a couple of injuries and Bradshaw could get in by default...

[welwyn]

Apr 5, 2016 15:49:17 GMT umcb14 said:

I'd say so, yes. Aberdeen are the closest thing to Celtic, who despite struggling recently, have done well in the Champions League on occasion. It was a massive one off but I'd like to see a League 1 team beating Barcelona no matter how lucky they get. And like I said, Ward was getting plaudits for his Aberdeen performances, so you've got to be fair in that regard. I'm not saying that Bradshaw's level is definitely League 1, and it's very possible that he will be a better player than Church, but at the moment the evidence isn't there, or certainly not enough to choose him for a major championship.

Comparing THAT Celtic team (Forster, Van Dijk, Wanyama, Ledley, Samaras, Hooper) with the current one is a complete misnomer. That side was one that could possibly stay up in the top flight. Celtic's ability has been on a serious downward spiral from just about the end of the Lennon reign and I don't see the slide stopping anytime soon, because that squad is so much weaker. They, Aberdeen and maybe Rangers are the only teams in Scotland that would have a cat in hells chance of staying up in the Championship.

I see a true four team-title race in the SPL next term between the Old Firm, Aberdeen & Hearts and it isn't because those latter three are suddenly vastly better, it is because Celtic are vastly worse. 

[Sincere]

Apr 5, 2016 14:01:34 GMT alarch said:

Apr 5, 2016 10:37:10 GMT welshiron said:

Bradshaw went to Walsall as a reject

Bradshaw signed from Shrewsbury when they were relegated to League 2, so I'm not sure where you get the "reject" bit from.

Incidentally, Bradshaw's scoring rate in the last two seasons is better than a goal every two games - which is widely accepted as the mark of a top striker. Before you point out that he's gained that record at League One level, that's better than no record at any level.

Agree with all these points. You have beat me to it. I would also like to add, Hal Robson-Kanu regularly plays for Reading, but as a Left Midfielder... So who says he will be up to scratch to play up top, in favour of a guy who is banging goals as a striker in League One, Bradshaw, a guy who is also getting his head on most things in the Scottish Prem, Church... And the safe bet, Vokes?

As a striker, you are taught to find the corners of the net, something Bradshaw does regularly. No matter what level you play at, the goals remain the same. Unlike Vokes/Church, he isn't a target man, he will create by getting in behind defences. For me, Bradshaw has to go as he gives us something different, that our two target men styled lads, Vokes and Church, do not give us. Even as a late sub, a tired centre back will hate having to track down a pacy striker. Against Slovakia, we could use Bradshaw to get in behind the slow defenders, whilst against Russia, we would need a target man, as Kuzmin and Komborov are rapid. In fact, most of their side is, which is scary, considering Ledley will have to keep up with Mamayev or Dzageov.

[umcb14]

Apr 5, 2016 22:49:01 GMT welwyn said:

Apr 5, 2016 15:49:17 GMT umcb14 said:

I'd say so, yes. Aberdeen are the closest thing to Celtic, who despite struggling recently, have done well in the Champions League on occasion. It was a massive one off but I'd like to see a League 1 team beating Barcelona no matter how lucky they get. And like I said, Ward was getting plaudits for his Aberdeen performances, so you've got to be fair in that regard. I'm not saying that Bradshaw's level is definitely League 1, and it's very possible that he will be a better player than Church, but at the moment the evidence isn't there, or certainly not enough to choose him for a major championship.

Comparing THAT Celtic team (Forster, Van Dijk, Wanyama, Ledley, Samaras, Hooper) with the current one is a complete misnomer. That side was one that could possibly stay up in the top flight. Celtic's ability has been on a serious downward spiral from just about the end of the Lennon reign and I don't see the slide stopping anytime soon, because that squad is so much weaker. They, Aberdeen and maybe Rangers are the only teams in Scotland that would have a cat in hells chance of staying up in the Championship.

I see a true four team-title race in the SPL next term between the Old Firm, Aberdeen & Hearts and it isn't because those latter three are suddenly vastly better, it is because Celtic are vastly worse. 

I'm not comparing that team with the current one, but that's the potential standard of the SPL, quality sides are produced there sometimes. I don't see how saying 'Celtic, Aberdeen and maybe Rangers are are the only teams in Scotland that would have a cat in hells chance of staying up in the Championship' strengthens the argument at all really, because that's impossible to know. Maybe you're right, but Coleman can't be expected to pick a still unproven player on that sort of vague hypothetical basis. 

As I've said, I really hoped that Bradshaw would get more of a chance in the friendlies, but because he didn't, you've got to think of the role they'll be playing in the Euros, which is 15/20 mins off the bench, and when asked to play that role in the friendlies, Church had more of an impact than Bradshaw. Bradshaw has done well for Walsall, and earned his chance for a call-up to the friendlies, but I can't see how a lively 15mins against Ukraine has then suddenly propelled him into someone who should definitely be in the final squad.

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2016 8:44:48 GMT umcb14 said:

Apr 5, 2016 22:49:01 GMT welwyn said:

Comparing THAT Celtic team (Forster, Van Dijk, Wanyama, Ledley, Samaras, Hooper) with the current one is a complete misnomer. That side was one that could possibly stay up in the top flight. Celtic's ability has been on a serious downward spiral from just about the end of the Lennon reign and I don't see the slide stopping anytime soon, because that squad is so much weaker. They, Aberdeen and maybe Rangers are the only teams in Scotland that would have a cat in hells chance of staying up in the Championship.

I see a true four team-title race in the SPL next term between the Old Firm, Aberdeen & Hearts and it isn't because those latter three are suddenly vastly better, it is because Celtic are vastly worse. 

I'm not comparing that team with the current one, but that's the potential standard of the SPL, quality sides are produced there sometimes. I don't see how saying 'Celtic, Aberdeen and maybe Rangers are are the only teams in Scotland that would have a cat in hells chance of staying up in the Championship' strengthens the argument at all really, because that's impossible to know. Maybe you're right, but Coleman can't be expected to pick a still unproven player on that sort of vague hypothetical basis. 

As I've said, I really hoped that Bradshaw would get more of a chance in the friendlies, but because he didn't, you've got to think of the role they'll be playing in the Euros, which is 15/20 mins off the bench, and when asked to play that role in the friendlies, Church had more of an impact than Bradshaw. Bradshaw has done well for Walsall, and earned his chance for a call-up to the friendlies, but I can't see how a lively 15mins against Ukraine has then suddenly propelled him into someone who should definitely be in the final squad.

No and that is what has really got my goat with this whole Bradshaw situation- that Coleman can't say that he has fully explored all the options available to him to resolve the problem of where our goals will come from in the absence of Bale or if he is off form.

We have known for a while that Church and Vokes are not goal scoring centre forwards and there is no-one else realistically available at Championship level. Meanwhile Bradshaw has been scoring goals consistently in league two for a while and we only get our first look at him in the last 20 minutes of the last game for players to stake their claim for a place in the squad for the finals. Really disappointed that we don't at this point we don't know more about what he offers when we have known for quite some time what Church and Vokes offer and their case has only got weaker since. It wouldn't have hurt to have had Bradshaw on the pitch at some point vs Andorra and vs the Netherlands and to have played at least a half vs Ukraine (injury permitting).

[iot]

Apr 6, 2016 10:04:02 GMT @storm said:

Apr 6, 2016 8:44:48 GMT umcb14 said:

I'm not comparing that team with the current one, but that's the potential standard of the SPL, quality sides are produced there sometimes. I don't see how saying 'Celtic, Aberdeen and maybe Rangers are are the only teams in Scotland that would have a cat in hells chance of staying up in the Championship' strengthens the argument at all really, because that's impossible to know. Maybe you're right, but Coleman can't be expected to pick a still unproven player on that sort of vague hypothetical basis. 

As I've said, I really hoped that Bradshaw would get more of a chance in the friendlies, but because he didn't, you've got to think of the role they'll be playing in the Euros, which is 15/20 mins off the bench, and when asked to play that role in the friendlies, Church had more of an impact than Bradshaw. Bradshaw has done well for Walsall, and earned his chance for a call-up to the friendlies, but I can't see how a lively 15mins against Ukraine has then suddenly propelled him into someone who should definitely be in the final squad.

No and that is what has really got my goat with this whole Bradshaw situation- that Coleman can't say that he has fully explored all the options available to him to resolve the problem of where our goals will come from in the absence of Bale or if he is off form.

We have known for a while that Church and Vokes are not goal scoring centre forwards and there is no-one else realistically available at Championship level. Meanwhile Bradshaw has been scoring goals consistently in league two for a while and we only get our first look at him in the last 20 minutes of the last game for players to stake their claim for a place in the squad for the finals. Really disappointed that we don't at this point we don't know more about what he offers when we have known for quite some time what Church and Vokes offer and their case has only got weaker since. It wouldn't have hurt to have had Bradshaw on the pitch at some point vs Andorra and vs the Netherlands and to have played at least a half vs Ukraine (injury permitting).

Let's remember that Bradshaw was ruled out of the NI game because of injury and that might also be the reason he was only given 20 mins against Ukraine. You say it's disappointing that we don't know more about what he can offer and I agree with that. However, Coleman and the coaching team do know a lot about what he brings to the table. Osian Roberts stated in an interview last November (I think) that they'd been to watch him play for Walsall around 5-6 times and they've probably had someone to watch him as many times since. On top of watching him live in probably 10+ games for his club, they've also had him in two squads for around ten days cumulatively where they've been able to see what he offers in training and probably tested him in different patterns of play. I don't think there's any grounds to question the Welsh coaching setup re the way they've monitored his progress and ultimately their selection decision on Bradshaw.

If Bradshaw was a player we knew quite a bit about and truly understood how good he is, and that he had shown to be a better option than Church, it would be fair enough to complain about his non-inclusion in the squad. But, most people think he should be a cert in the squad based on watching him live for 20mins and a couple of 5mins youtube best-bits clips. The clamouring for him is totally over the top and frankly, quite laughable. 

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2016 12:55:50 GMT iot said:

Apr 6, 2016 10:04:02 GMT @storm said:

No and that is what has really got my goat with this whole Bradshaw situation- that Coleman can't say that he has fully explored all the options available to him to resolve the problem of where our goals will come from in the absence of Bale or if he is off form.

We have known for a while that Church and Vokes are not goal scoring centre forwards and there is no-one else realistically available at Championship level. Meanwhile Bradshaw has been scoring goals consistently in league two for a while and we only get our first look at him in the last 20 minutes of the last game for players to stake their claim for a place in the squad for the finals. Really disappointed that we don't at this point we don't know more about what he offers when we have known for quite some time what Church and Vokes offer and their case has only got weaker since. It wouldn't have hurt to have had Bradshaw on the pitch at some point vs Andorra and vs the Netherlands and to have played at least a half vs Ukraine (injury permitting).

Let's remember that Bradshaw was ruled out of the NI game because of injury and that might also be the reason he was only given 20 mins against Ukraine. You say it's disappointing that we don't know more about what he can offer and I agree with that. However, Coleman and the coaching team do know a lot about what he brings to the table. Osian Roberts stated in an interview last November (I think) that they'd been to watch him play for Walsall around 5-6 times and they've probably had someone to watch him as many times since. On top of watching him live in probably 10+ games for his club, they've also had him in two squads for around ten days cumulatively where they've been able to see what he offers in training and probably tested him in different patterns of play. I don't think there's any grounds to question the Welsh coaching setup re the way they've monitored his progress and ultimately their selection decision on Bradshaw.

If Bradshaw was a player we knew quite a bit about and truly understood how good he is, and that he had shown to be a better option than Church, it would be fair enough to complain about his non-inclusion in the squad. But, most people think he should be a cert in the squad based on watching him live for 20mins and a couple of 5mins youtube best-bits clips. The clamouring for him is totally over the top and frankly, quite laughable. 

I could accept that answer if it didn't leave us wondering exactly what Church must do in training. When he actually got on the pitch Bradshaw looked better than the previous encumbent to most posters on here so I am not sure I have as much faith in the coaching staff as I would like to have. I suspect there is a fair amount of nepotism in the setup, or at the very least over-valuing of what Church brings in terms of character which is at play just as much as a failure on Bradshaw's part to train well. Either way, this is obviously pure speculation, from what I could see with my own eyes Bradshaw had a better impact than Church on the Ukraine defence and surely how a player goes on the pitch is the most important aspect of all?

All in all this argument is just going round in circles and is ultimately futile because we all know Church will be picked - and probably not entirely on footballing ability. I really hope we don't end up having to rely on him to do anything other than give the ball away because if we do Coleman could end up facing some pretty tough questions (from those who aren't just happy to be at the finals).

[welshiron]

Wes Burns was man of the match for Fleetwood last night, scoring again.

He now has 5 goals in 10 games playing for a side at the bottom of the league, compare that with Bradshaw 6 in last 17 ( including penalties)

He also has a far better scoring record than Bradshaw playing for the U21s 6 goals in 16 games compared to Bradshaw who got 1 in 8 games

Maybe this is a player who if his form continues could be an outsider for France as he can play wide or through the middle. He is getting more game time than George Williams and making a bigger impact in the same league

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2016 14:59:22 GMT welshiron said:

Wes Burns was man of the match for Fleetwood last night, scoring again.

He now has 5 goals in 10 games playing for a side at the bottom of the league, compare that with Bradshaw 6 in last 17 ( including penalties)

He also has a far better scoring record than Bradshaw playing for the U21s 6 goals in 16 games compared to Bradshaw who got 1 in 8 games

Maybe this is a player who if his form continues could be an outsider for France as he can play wide or through the middle. He is getting more game time than George Williams and making a bigger impact in the same league

You were making a big song and dance about the level Bradshaw was playing at and are now advocating Burns?! Strewth.

Burns has as much chance of getting picked as I have.

[marsvolta]

I love the fact that the biggest debate on here leading up to the Euros is which lower division player we take to be our reserve striker.