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Post by richierich333 on Apr 1, 2016 12:57:02 GMT
Every time I hear Church's name over the loudspeaker a little bit of me dies
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Post by iot on Apr 1, 2016 13:07:50 GMT
I can't speak for anyone else, but when I see Church's name on the team list, my heart sinks. So there is a natural tendency to cast around in desperation for alternatives. I think a reasoned case can be made for Bradshaw - but there's no denying that there's a big negative driver in the background. As for Coleman, ultimately he will be judged in the round. If he includes Church and leaves Bradshaw out I'll be disappointed. But if that were offset by the inclusion of the likes of Huws, Joniesta and George Williams then I'll be content. Some of his decisions baffle me, but I don't expect him to think just like me, and for me to agree with all his decisions. He could (and is) still be doing a very good job in spite of the odd blindspot. Mostly agree with that apart from the 'blindspot' bit. He has a far greater insight than us so it's probably the other way around. Let's not forget that he's made a few outlandish calls that have paid off e.g. starting Jazz against Belgium and Gunter as a cb - not many would have agreed with that beforehand but it worked really well. |
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Post by alarch on Apr 1, 2016 13:59:45 GMT
You are indeed a "true believer" iot.
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Post by iot on Apr 1, 2016 14:25:36 GMT
No, not at all alarch. I think Coleman is far from perfect. However, I also think that us fans are all guilty of thinking we know far more than we actually do about football matters and the goings on in the Welsh setup.
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Post by alarch on Apr 1, 2016 15:53:56 GMT
That's undeniably true iot - but if we were to circumscribe our comments based on our level of expertise then forums such as this would be pretty barren places.
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Post by welshiron on Apr 4, 2016 7:35:35 GMT
I see a lot of you disagree with my U21 comparison, well to be honest it is flawed but I would say it is much more of an indicater than running around for 15 mins and "getting involved" on your debut.
Two other points
1. Church made more of an impact as a sub V NI than Bradshaw did
2. Church has scored 4 in 8 for Aberdeen so is currently in better scoring form in Bradshaw, you can argue all day about who plays in the strongest league.
I am not a Church fan and hope he plays only a cameo in France but would 100% pick him ahead of Bradshaw.
Yes Church is limited but nobody can question his commitment to our country, can the same be said about Bradshaw!
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Post by richierich333 on Apr 4, 2016 7:57:31 GMT
A patched up NI side was probably just about shallow enough for him to keep his head above water. Anything superior to this in terms of quality opposition and he really stands out (not in the good way, more like a sore thumb).
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Post by phillygaz on Apr 4, 2016 8:00:10 GMT
Wasn't particularly patched up. Coming up against Cathcart, Macauley, Evans and McNair is more of a challenge than SPL or League 1.
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Post by welshiron on Apr 4, 2016 8:00:40 GMT
There is also Wes Burns who is scoring a goal every couple of games for a side struggling in league 1.
He has a good U21 record and pace to burn so I would probably prefer to see him in the squad ahead of Bradshaw
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Post by welshiron on Apr 4, 2016 8:02:06 GMT
A patched up NI side was probably just about shallow enough for him to keep his head above water. Anything superior to this in terms of quality opposition and he really stands out (not in the good way, more like a sore thumb). He was fouled by one of the mainstays of their defence, a defence which has done well against better teams than us when he has been playing |
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Post by welshiron on Apr 4, 2016 8:10:06 GMT
For all the Bradshaw fans
6 goals in 17 games since his return in January, failed to score both times against teams from the championship
Face facts at the moment he is not good enough, you can argue all day whether he is better than Church and he might turn out to be but at the moment Coleman would be mad to lose all the experience Church brings for an unproven league 1 striker
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Post by Sincere on Apr 4, 2016 8:58:47 GMT
There is also Wes Burns who is scoring a goal every couple of games for a side struggling in league 1. He has a good U21 record and pace to burn so I would probably prefer to see him in the squad ahead of Bradshaw Burns is a right winger, but has mad pace. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 9:09:26 GMT
For all the Bradshaw fans 6 goals in 17 games since his return in January, failed to score both times against teams from the championship Face facts at the moment he is not good enough, you can argue all day whether he is better than Church and he might turn out to be but at the moment Coleman would be mad to lose all the experience Church brings for an unproven league 1 striker If that 'experience' had any positive effect for us then I might be inclined to agree with you. Apart from winning a penalty (which for all the vaunting of the NI defence was a soft giveaway because Church was going nowhere) what has he done in a Welsh shirt? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 9:16:02 GMT
Actually I will re-phrase that. What does Church actually offer us in terms of skill set? Because to my mind it isn't like you can point to any particular strength and say that at least he offers us that, only the vague intangible known as 'experience'.
He isn't a potential target man like Vokes. He makes the odd run although Bradshaw seemed to have him beat for mobility and intelligence in that respect. He very rarely gets himself in a position where he can get on the end of a chance. He doesn't add anything to our general build up play or hold the ball up particularly well. The ball goes up to him and usually comes back straight away via the opposition. Just what are his strengths other than being a warm body with a few caps to his name?
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Post by richierich333 on Apr 4, 2016 9:59:17 GMT
There is also Wes Burns who is scoring a goal every couple of games for a side struggling in league 1. He has a good U21 record and pace to burn so I would probably prefer to see him in the squad ahead of Bradshaw Just as I thought he was breaking into the Championship with Bristol City, he gets dropped and loaned out to League 1. Should we be worried? Is it his age or attitude? Hopefully it is simply them preferring old heads for the relegation fight rather than young kids. |
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Post by richierich333 on Apr 4, 2016 10:03:02 GMT
Actually I will re-phrase that. What does Church actually offer us in terms of skill set? Because to my mind it isn't like you can point to any particular strength and say that at least he offers us that, only the vague intangible known as 'experience'. He isn't a potential target man like Vokes. He makes the odd run although Bradshaw seemed to have him beat for mobility and intelligence in that respect. He very rarely gets himself in a position where he can get on the end of a chance. He doesn't add anything to our general build up play or hold the ball up particularly well. The ball goes up to him and usually comes back straight away via the opposition. Just what are his strengths other than being a warm body with a few caps to his name? Someone mentioned his 'runs in behind the defence'...a notable skill IF you can get on the end of a pass or beat the offside trap...or cross. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 11:05:24 GMT
Actually I will re-phrase that. What does Church actually offer us in terms of skill set? Because to my mind it isn't like you can point to any particular strength and say that at least he offers us that, only the vague intangible known as 'experience'. He isn't a potential target man like Vokes. He makes the odd run although Bradshaw seemed to have him beat for mobility and intelligence in that respect. He very rarely gets himself in a position where he can get on the end of a chance. He doesn't add anything to our general build up play or hold the ball up particularly well. The ball goes up to him and usually comes back straight away via the opposition. Just what are his strengths other than being a warm body with a few caps to his name? Someone mentioned his 'runs in behind the defence'...a notable skill IF you can get on the end of a pass or beat the offside trap...or cross. I wouldn't know as we never see him run in behind the defence, so I would contend that that sort of ability is useless to us. I realise that Bradshaw is that type of player also, but as he showed against the Ukraine he looks to be able get involved in build up play whereas Church is not as effective linking up with others. If we can't even play to Church's one solitary strength then the case for picking him effectively comes down to the fact that he has won x number of caps and so has lots of experience. To me it seems absolutely shambolic that any team in the Euros could be going there with a player chosen on such shallow merit. |
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Post by alarch on Apr 4, 2016 11:26:00 GMT
The 5 strikers option would keep everybody (apart from Dummett, Henley and Matthews) happy. Apart from Collins all our other defenders have pretty solid records when it comes to injury (Williams and Gunter especially so). Would it be too big a risk to go with 7 defenders - and so freeing up the option of having the limited Church and the gambling selection Bradshaw?
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Post by welshiron on Apr 4, 2016 11:59:08 GMT
Someone mentioned his 'runs in behind the defence'...a notable skill IF you can get on the end of a pass or beat the offside trap...or cross. I wouldn't know as we never see him run in behind the defence, so I would contend that that sort of ability is useless to us. I realise that Bradshaw is that type of player also, but as he showed against the Ukraine he looks to be able get involved in build up play whereas Church is not as effective linking up with others. If we can't even play to Church's one solitary strength then the case for picking him effectively comes down to the fact that he has won x number of caps and so has lots of experience. To me it seems absolutely shambolic that any team in the Euros could be going there with a player chosen on such shallow merit. Not as shambolic as picking a player with 18 mins experience and the 9th highest scorer in league 1 Remember team spirit has been a massive part of us qualifying and these guys could be away together for 6-8 weeks so when we have question marks who is the best player I would always go for guy with experience who helped us qualify and is well respected member of the squad. We are not comparing Church with Pele for f's sake it's Tom Bradshaw of Shrewsbury and Walsall, a guy who refused to play for the U21s who no club in a higher league signed in January. Despite his obvious limitations Church has played at a higher level, currently playing for a team going for the title which brings pressure. Going forward who knows Bradshaw may turn out to be another Vardy but the odds are very slim. Until he plays at a higher level or is scoring a lot more than he is he won't become a regular for Wales |
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Post by welshiron on Apr 4, 2016 12:02:15 GMT
The 5 strikers option would keep everybody (apart from Dummett, Henley and Matthews) happy. Apart from Collins all our other defenders have pretty solid records when it comes to injury (Williams and Gunter especially so). Would it be too big a risk to go with 7 defenders - and so freeing up the option of having the limited Church and the gambling selection Bradshaw? Personally think we need the extra defender we would only need one injury and one suspension to be down to 5 if we only take 7. We only play 1 up front and at the moment it would be HRK, then Vokes and probably then Bale, I can't see Church (or Bradshaw) having much game time so to take both would be a waste in my opinion I think the 8th defender will be Dummett but he needs to get back playing |
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Post by richierich333 on Apr 4, 2016 12:20:46 GMT
I wouldn't know as we never see him run in behind the defence, so I would contend that that sort of ability is useless to us. I realise that Bradshaw is that type of player also, but as he showed against the Ukraine he looks to be able get involved in build up play whereas Church is not as effective linking up with others. If we can't even play to Church's one solitary strength then the case for picking him effectively comes down to the fact that he has won x number of caps and so has lots of experience. To me it seems absolutely shambolic that any team in the Euros could be going there with a player chosen on such shallow merit. Not as shambolic as picking a player with 18 mins experience and the 9th highest scorer in league 1 Remember team spirit has been a massive part of us qualifying and these guys could be away together for 6-8 weeks so when we have question marks who is the best player I would always go for guy with experience who helped us qualify and is well respected member of the squad. We are not comparing Church with Pele for f's sake it's Tom Bradshaw of Shrewsbury and Walsall, a guy who refused to play for the U21s who no club in a higher league signed in January. Despite his obvious limitations Church has played at a higher level, currently playing for a team going for the title which brings pressure. Going forward who knows Bradshaw may turn out to be another Vardy but the odds are very slim. Until he plays at a higher level or is scoring a lot more than he is he won't become a regular for Wales Bradshaw USED TO play for Shrewsbury, so did Joe Hart. How does his previous club back up your point? Absolutely no relevance to anything. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 12:58:11 GMT
I wouldn't know as we never see him run in behind the defence, so I would contend that that sort of ability is useless to us. I realise that Bradshaw is that type of player also, but as he showed against the Ukraine he looks to be able get involved in build up play whereas Church is not as effective linking up with others. If we can't even play to Church's one solitary strength then the case for picking him effectively comes down to the fact that he has won x number of caps and so has lots of experience. To me it seems absolutely shambolic that any team in the Euros could be going there with a player chosen on such shallow merit. Not as shambolic as picking a player with 18 mins experience and the 9th highest scorer in league 1 Remember team spirit has been a massive part of us qualifying and these guys could be away together for 6-8 weeks so when we have question marks who is the best player I would always go for guy with experience who helped us qualify and is well respected member of the squad. We are not comparing Church with Pele for f's sake it's Tom Bradshaw of Shrewsbury and Walsall, a guy who refused to play for the U21s who no club in a higher league signed in January. Despite his obvious limitations Church has played at a higher level, currently playing for a team going for the title which brings pressure. Going forward who knows Bradshaw may turn out to be another Vardy but the odds are very slim. Until he plays at a higher level or is scoring a lot more than he is he won't become a regular for Wales The thing is it is all very well going on about how Church has played at a higher level blah blah blah but what tangible value does that actually give us? I don't see any evidence of this on the pitch for Wales and in fact, his contribution on the whole over the two friendlies was shown up by a player who doesn't have the 'experience' and hasn't played at these higher levels yet who displayed more promise of better things in 20 minutes than Church did in 90. Yes Church is now under pressure to score against league one quality defences, in that sense he is hardly any better off than Bradshaw who is under pressure to promote his team from league one! Maybe we should call up Morison because using your logic he has scored goals at a higher level than both Church and Bradshaw, but we won't because even though Morison has scored goals in the prem we know what he offers at international level. It is the same with Church - he is not an international footballer and most likely never will be. Bradshaw *might* be, we don't know. Given a lack of a standout candidate to challenge HRK and Bale for the striker positions it comes down to Balancing the known and the unknown- which seems a straightforward choice to make to me. |
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Post by ae15 on Apr 4, 2016 14:13:54 GMT
Up to when Conor Washington signed for QPR in January he had scored 10 goals for Peterborough and Bradshaw had scored 9. Now Washington is scoring against very decent teams at international level of a similar standard to those we are playing at the Euros. He hasn't yet scored for QPR either though! It doesn't matter what level these guys play at, internationals are very different and Bradshaw has a proven goalscoring record.
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Post by bale-droed on Apr 4, 2016 14:56:13 GMT
Up to when Conor Washington signed for QPR in January he had scored 10 goals for Peterborough and Bradshaw had scored 9. Now Washington is scoring against very decent teams at international level of a similar standard to those we are playing at the Euros. He hasn't yet scored for QPR either though! It doesn't matter what level these guys play at, internationals are very different and Bradshaw has a proven goalscoring record. that's a good point. Nothing more to add. |
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Post by iot on Apr 4, 2016 15:07:08 GMT
Up to when Conor Washington signed for QPR in January he had scored 10 goals for Peterborough and Bradshaw had scored 9. Now Washington is scoring against very decent teams at international level of a similar standard to those we are playing at the Euros. He hasn't yet scored for QPR either though! It doesn't matter what level these guys play at, internationals are very different and Bradshaw has a proven goalscoring record. Disagree, the level you're playing at does matter. Chris Venables is a proven goalscorer in the WPL - second highest this season. Is he in contention for a place in the squad? No, because he's not playing at a high enough level. You can always find exceptions to the rule (e.g. Vardy and Washington to a much lesser extent) but the general rule is the level you're playing at is a fair reflection of your capabilities - unless, of course, you're absolutely ripping the league apart as Ched Evans was doing in his final season with Sheffield (where he had twice as good a goalscoring record as Bradshaw). |
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Post by ae15 on Apr 4, 2016 16:04:17 GMT
Up to when Conor Washington signed for QPR in January he had scored 10 goals for Peterborough and Bradshaw had scored 9. Now Washington is scoring against very decent teams at international level of a similar standard to those we are playing at the Euros. He hasn't yet scored for QPR either though! It doesn't matter what level these guys play at, internationals are very different and Bradshaw has a proven goalscoring record. Disagree, the level you're playing at does matter. Chris Venables is a proven goalscorer in the WPL - second highest this season. Is he in contention for a place in the squad? No, because he's not playing at a high enough level. You can always find exceptions to the rule (e.g. Vardy and Washington to a much lesser extent) but the general rule is the level you're playing at is a fair reflection of your capabilities - unless, of course, you're absolutely ripping the league apart as Ched Evans was doing in his final season with Sheffield (where he had twice as good a goalscoring record as Bradshaw). You knew what I meant mate, no need to bring in ridiculously picky examples. |
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Post by Tim P on Apr 4, 2016 18:36:20 GMT
Unless we are struck down by injuries neither Church or Bradshaw would get many, if any, minutes. Therefore you look at the value they bring as squad members - it's well known that Church is a popular player, one who understands his place in the pecking order, and keeps the group in good spirits. If Coleman feel that Bradshaw isn't better than Church then it's a no brainer as to who he should pick.
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Post by cadno on Apr 4, 2016 20:11:49 GMT
To see what Church brings to the table you should re-watch our friendly vs the Netherlands in 2014, good performance from him.
We're going to play 5 at the back, so we'll probably take 8 defenders - like the Netherlands did at the last World Cup.
Bradshaw would be my "wildcard", but I doubt he'll go ahead of Church
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 20:32:42 GMT
IIRC Church was mainly utilised as a goalscoring sub in our breakthrough u21 team.
He has looked more effective used in this role more recently, for example v Israel in the last 10 minutes..... plus he works well with Ramsey.
He has known these boys for 》10 years now. I think Bradshaw will get his chance in the WC campaign if he keeps playing well - this is basically what Coleman said during the last double header.
Who knows..... churchy may score the sudden death penalty that wins the last 16 or QF knockout followed by a pile on that makes us all flip our collective tops.
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Post by iot on Apr 5, 2016 7:48:13 GMT
Disagree, the level you're playing at does matter. Chris Venables is a proven goalscorer in the WPL - second highest this season. Is he in contention for a place in the squad? No, because he's not playing at a high enough level. You can always find exceptions to the rule (e.g. Vardy and Washington to a much lesser extent) but the general rule is the level you're playing at is a fair reflection of your capabilities - unless, of course, you're absolutely ripping the league apart as Ched Evans was doing in his final season with Sheffield (where he had twice as good a goalscoring record as Bradshaw). You knew what I meant mate, no need to bring in ridiculously picky examples. The only point I was making was that we shouldn't take Bradshaw just because he might be the next Vardy/Washington because in all likelihood he won't be. He's far more likely to be the next Jermaine Easter - I'm sure he had a similar record in his first couple of seasons at that level and look how he turned out! I agree with Tim P, it doesn't really matter (in terms of ability alone) which one we take because neither are likely to have any impact on our campaign. I've been toing and froing as to who I think should go and based on ability alone, Bradshaw probably edges it (not that any of us really know how capable he is). However, Church has been with all of our key players in Welsh squads for the last ten years and the camaraderie in the group has been key to our success. I'm not saying if he's left out of the squad for Bradshaw our key players will throw a strop/go on strike, but they might feel bad for him and it might affect morale. It's not a risk worth taking for someone (Bradshaw) who isn't likely to make a difference at the tournament. |
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