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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 12:14:46 GMT
Speaking of striking prospects I was just reading about that lad that Swansea loaned to Newport who hit a hat trick on his debut after coming on as a sub in the 60th minute. Turns out he is a Scottish under 21. Nice to see Swansea doing their bit for Wales at youth level...
Even more reason to hope Bradshaw is the real deal.
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Post by cymruramdcfc on Nov 29, 2015 12:21:34 GMT
Be interesting January transfer time if any one from higher level come in for him considering his goals he putting in.
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Post by nathan1710 on Nov 29, 2015 13:51:49 GMT
Be interesting January transfer time if any one from higher level come in for him considering his goals he putting in. I've heard that Birmingham and Norwich are looking at him. |
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Post by phillygaz on Nov 29, 2015 15:32:28 GMT
Got Any better ideas Gaz? Or shall we ask fat John to get his boots on because he scored 71 goals in the 74/75 season?[/quote] I'm not sure I understand the point about fat John but here are my suggestions: 1. Accept that we currently have no strikers who are likely to ever be top level international performers. 2. Persevere with Robson-Kanu, Lawrence, Church and Vokes who, being Championship level players, do the best they can despite their limitations. 3. If the above are injured bring Bradshaw into the squad with no expectation that he is likely to offer any more than the players named above at this point in time. 4. If Bradshaw moves to a Championship club and gets in the team put him in the squad with the same expectation as point 3. 5. If he does really well and scores goals in the Championship put him in the squad with slightly higher hopes and expectations. 6. In the meantime stop discussing Bradshaw like the only thing stopping him being revealed as the next Toto Scillatchi is Coleman's stubborn refusal to pick him. In other words - accept that what is almost certainly Coleman's thinking regarding Bradshaw is a reasonable position and really not that controversial. |
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Post by llannerch on Nov 29, 2015 21:15:50 GMT
Got Any better ideas Gaz? Or shall we ask fat John to get his boots on because he scored 71 goals in the 74/75 season? I'm not sure I understand the point about fat John but here are my suggestions: 1. Accept that we currently have no strikers who are likely to ever be top level international performers. 2. Persevere with Robson-Kanu, Lawrence, Church and Vokes who, being Championship level players, do the best they can despite their limitations. 3. If the above are injured bring Bradshaw into the squad with no expectation that he is likely to offer any more than the players named above at this point in time. 4. If Bradshaw moves to a Championship club and gets in the team put him in the squad with the same expectation as point 3. 5. If he does really well and scores goals in the Championship put him in the squad with slightly higher hopes and expectations. 6. In the meantime stop discussing Bradshaw like the only thing stopping him being revealed as the next Toto Scillatchi is Coleman's stubborn refusal to pick him. In other words - accept that what is almost certainly Coleman's thinking regarding Bradshaw is a reasonable position and really not that controversial. [/quote] But, like, you know, Jamie Vardy was at Fleetwood. Or something |
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Post by cadno on Nov 30, 2015 11:51:50 GMT
Vardy is in the England squad because he is scoring for fun in the EPL. Not because anyone is gambling on him as a late developer. I hope Bradshaw proves to be the missing link but "knowing where the back of the net is" in League 1 proves zero. He is a player to keep an eye on but totting up his goals against Crewe and Swindon does not make him our secret weapon for the finals.0 Got Any better ideas Gaz? Or shall we ask fat John to get his boots on because he scored 71 goals in the 74/75 season? Bradshaw deserves a chance. I'm in no doubt that he can step up and score plenty in the Championship. But I think Vokes was only 24 when he scored 20 goals in the Championship 13/14 season, he's had a terrible injury so I have high hopes for him at the Euros with a full season behind him. |
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Post by toshfan on Nov 30, 2015 12:31:01 GMT
Bradshaw took his goal against Bradford brilliantly. Lovely control.
The equaliser from Lee Evans was even better.
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Post by joio on Nov 30, 2015 15:22:11 GMT
Got Any better ideas Gaz? Or shall we ask fat John to get his boots on because he scored 71 goals in the 74/75 season? I'm not sure I understand the point about fat John but here are my suggestions: 1. Accept that we currently have no strikers who are likely to ever be top level international performers. 2. Persevere with Robson-Kanu, Lawrence, Church and Vokes who, being Championship level players, do the best they can despite their limitations. 3. If the above are injured bring Bradshaw into the squad with no expectation that he is likely to offer any more than the players named above at this point in time. 4. If Bradshaw moves to a Championship club and gets in the team put him in the squad with the same expectation as point 3. 5. If he does really well and scores goals in the Championship put him in the squad with slightly higher hopes and expectations. 6. In the meantime stop discussing Bradshaw like the only thing stopping him being revealed as the next Toto Scillatchi is Coleman's stubborn refusal to pick him. In other words - accept that what is almost certainly Coleman's thinking regarding Bradshaw is a reasonable position and really not that controversial. [/quote] I'm happy with Robson-Kanu, Vokes and Lawrence but like many others I believe that Bradshaw deserves his chance especially over somebody like Church. What is the point of persevering with Church when we know what he's capable of (or not capable of!)? What's wrong with giving an opportunity to a striker who's being linked with the likes of Norwich and Birmingham, and more importantly somebody who's scoring goals? If Lawrence hadn't played against the Dutch we wouldn't have known what he's capable of on the international stage. After his performance against the Dutch he's given us an extra option - something we desperately need. But can we honestly say that Church gives us another option if we needed to change things from the bench? Perhaps Bradshaw could but we don't know that yet. However, I can't see anything to suggest that Bradshaw wouldn't offer more than Church if he had a chance. Until he gets that opportunity I think it's quite foolish for us to presume that he wouldn't bring something else to the table especially when we desperately need a goal scorer. If Bradshaw is deemed as bad, or worse than Church, then no problem we keep Church in the squad for the Euros. However, what's wrong with giving it a go? Sticking to what we know and not consider other possibilities is a very Welsh thing and I don't mean that in the football sense. Since 2007 Church has scored 36 league goals in over 200 appearances with many of those games at a level lower than the Championship. In the last two years Church has scored 5 in 55 matches and Bradshaw has scored 30 in 58 matches. I know they're playing at different levels but I'm not sure if the gap is as wide as some try to make out. From the 12 clubs promoted from League one since 2010 only two clubs have gone back down. Nine are still in the Championship and Bournemouth of course are in the Premier League. |
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Post by llannerch on Nov 30, 2015 17:52:47 GMT
I've moved on from Bradshaw.
Marley Watkins is the new Bradshaw
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Post by nathan1710 on Nov 30, 2015 18:14:34 GMT
Got Any better ideas Gaz? Or shall we ask fat John to get his boots on because he scored 71 goals in the 74/75 season? I'm not sure I understand the point about fat John but here are my suggestions: 1. Accept that we currently have no strikers who are likely to ever be top level international performers. 2. Persevere with Robson-Kanu, Lawrence, Church and Vokes who, being Championship level players, do the best they can despite their limitations. 3. If the above are injured bring Bradshaw into the squad with no expectation that he is likely to offer any more than the players named above at this point in time. 4. If Bradshaw moves to a Championship club and gets in the team put him in the squad with the same expectation as point 3. 5. If he does really well and scores goals in the Championship put him in the squad with slightly higher hopes and expectations. 6. In the meantime stop discussing Bradshaw like the only thing stopping him being revealed as the next Toto Scillatchi is Coleman's stubborn refusal to pick him. In other words - accept that what is almost certainly Coleman's thinking regarding Bradshaw is a reasonable position and really not that controversial. I'm happy with Robson-Kanu, Vokes and Lawrence but like many others I believe that Bradshaw deserves his chance especially over somebody like Church. What is the point of persevering with Church when we know what he's capable of (or not capable of!)? What's wrong with giving an opportunity to a striker who's being linked with the likes of Norwich and Birmingham, and more importantly somebody who's scoring goals? If Lawrence hadn't played against the Dutch we wouldn't have known what he's capable of on the international stage. After his performance against the Dutch he's given us an extra option - something we desperately need. But can we honestly say that Church gives us another option if we needed to change things from the bench? Perhaps Bradshaw could but we don't know that yet. However, I can't see anything to suggest that Bradshaw wouldn't offer more than Church if he had a chance. Until he gets that opportunity I think it's quite foolish for us to presume that he wouldn't bring something else to the table especially when we desperately need a goal scorer. If Bradshaw is deemed as bad, or worse than Church, then no problem we keep Church in the squad for the Euros. However, what's wrong with giving it a go? Sticking to what we know and not consider other possibilities is a very Welsh thing and I don't mean that in the football sense. Since 2007 Church has scored 36 league goals in over 200 appearances with many of those games at a level lower than the Championship. In the last two years Church has scored 5 in 55 matches and Bradshaw has scored 30 in 58 matches. I know they're playing at different levels but I'm not sure if the gap is as wide as some try to make out. From the 12 clubs promoted from League one since 2010 only two clubs have gone back down. Nine are still in the Championship and Bournemouth of course are in the Premier League. [/quote] Great stats mate. |
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Post by biwmares on Nov 30, 2015 20:36:33 GMT
Bradshaw may get the opportunity to move to Brentford now as they have appointed Walsall manager Dean Smith as their new boss.
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Post by welwyn on Nov 30, 2015 22:55:45 GMT
Bradshaw may get the opportunity to move to Brentford now as they have appointed Walsall manager Dean Smith as their new boss. Their recruitment policy doesn't work like that. |
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Post by ontheroadagain on Dec 1, 2015 20:35:37 GMT
Gone off injured tonight after 27 minutes. Hopefully not too bad.
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Post by cymruramdcfc on Dec 2, 2015 18:51:39 GMT
Gone off injured tonight after 27 minutes. Hopefully not too bad. Probably worn out scoring . Hope its nothing serious as he is on verge of a break throu be bad for him to lose out now |
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Post by alarch on Mar 30, 2016 23:05:47 GMT
In light of Bradshaw's showing against Ukraine it's worth looking at the YouTube clips of Bradshaw's goals this season and last: 2014/15: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPGR0qNr0tA2015/16: www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K2PHmPg9LMWhat's striking (no pun intended) about his goals is that so many are composed finishes - several one on ones with the goalie. The stand out goal was the goal he scored against Donny back in September - a superb chip over the goalie from just outside the box (48 seconds in). The last goal in this season's reel is pretty tasty too - great technique. There's a fair diversity of goals in there, including headers, penalties (in every one he sends the goalie the wrong way) and opportunistic strikes. No blistering strikes, but he looks a well-rounded striker - which certainly tallies with his showing against Ukraine, where his link-play was outstanding. I probably shouldn't do say this - but the only highlights reel for Simon Church is from 2011 - and features as many misses as goals... |
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Post by jonnylitts on Mar 31, 2016 7:29:06 GMT
Just watched the 15/16 video.
Scored a variety of goals.
Highlights for me: sublime chip over the goalkeeper and, although it doesn't look that much, the one where he pulls back to give himself space just before his teammate shoots. He duly puts away the rebound.
What's clear from the video is that he knows where the net is and has an instinct to be in the right place.
Church is a blunt instrument with no attacking guile.
Unless this is part of Cookie's plan to unleash Bradshaw when nobody will know anything about him and that's why he gave him only 18mins...
(Please let this be the case and Simon Church can polish his boots at home)
Edit: just watched the 14/15 goals and what's really impressive is where the ball ends up 9 times out of 10: the corner of the net.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 10:20:35 GMT
I recall I wasn't impressed by his finishing on the highlights reel from last season.
I would also remind people that Morison's highlights reel is really impressive (for a lump he had a real deft touch) and look how he turned out!
That being said Bradshaw would have to be really awful to be comparable or worse that Church. He needs and deserves more minutes on the pitch in Welsh shirt.
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Post by welshiron on Mar 31, 2016 12:08:30 GMT
I can't say I'm a fan of Simon Church but this hysteria regarding Bradshaw beggers belief.
A few points
Don't people think they monitored Bradshaw in training looking how he fared against Ash, Chester etc. He may well of been out of his depth.
Bradshaw has played for Wallsall and Shrewsbury so the comparisons with David Healy are well wide of the mark
Our success has been built on team spirit and unless we are bringing in someone definitely better then we should stick with the players who got us there.
and finally the best way to compare them is to look at their records when they played at the same level
Wales U21a
Bradshaw 8 caps 1 goal
Church 15 caps 8 goals
Hardly a compelling case for Bradshaw
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 12:40:26 GMT
I can't say I'm a fan of Simon Church but this hysteria regarding Bradshaw beggers belief. A few points Don't people think they monitored Bradshaw in training looking how he fared against Ash, Chester etc. He may well of been out of his depth. Bradshaw has played for Wallsall and Shrewsbury so the comparisons with David Healy are well wide of the mark Our success has been built on team spirit and unless we are bringing in someone definitely better then we should stick with the players who got us there. and finally the best way to compare them is to look at their records when they played at the same level Wales U21a Bradshaw 8 caps 1 goal Church 15 caps 8 goals Hardly a compelling case for Bradshaw Fair point, although I would like to have seen how Bradshaw would have fared had he played alongside Ramsey and co. It is worth considering that Bradshaw played in a much weaker under 21 side. |
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Post by nathan1710 on Mar 31, 2016 18:24:48 GMT
I can't say I'm a fan of Simon Church but this hysteria regarding Bradshaw beggers belief. A few points Don't people think they monitored Bradshaw in training looking how he fared against Ash, Chester etc. He may well of been out of his depth. Bradshaw has played for Wallsall and Shrewsbury so the comparisons with David Healy are well wide of the mark Our success has been built on team spirit and unless we are bringing in someone definitely better then we should stick with the players who got us there. and finally the best way to compare them is to look at their records when they played at the same level Wales U21a Bradshaw 8 caps 1 goal Church 15 caps 8 goals Hardly a compelling case for Bradshaw He scored a hatrick against forest? I believe? That shows he can play at a higher level. I think if he doesn't get into the Championship with Walsall this season he will end up there with someone else this summer. |
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Post by alarch on Mar 31, 2016 22:46:09 GMT
I can't say I'm a fan of Simon Church but this hysteria regarding Bradshaw beggers belief. A few points Don't people think they monitored Bradshaw in training looking how he fared against Ash, Chester etc. He may well of been out of his depth. Bradshaw has played for Wallsall and Shrewsbury so the comparisons with David Healy are well wide of the mark Our success has been built on team spirit and unless we are bringing in someone definitely better then we should stick with the players who got us there. and finally the best way to compare them is to look at their records when they played at the same level Wales U21a Bradshaw 8 caps 1 goal Church 15 caps 8 goals Hardly a compelling case for Bradshaw So you really think that the "best way to compare them" is to compare their few U21 appearances as opposed to many, many more at league level? What I will say about Church is that when he first came on the scene he looked an exiting prospect. His performances in the U21 play-offs against England impressed me a lot, but sadly he just hasn't kicked on. In fact, he looks less impressive now than he did then. Perhaps the Welsh management team see something in training that us fans never get to see, but any objective assessment of his performances at club and international level can hardly be favourable. It's too easy to dismiss players simply on the basis of the level they are currently playing at. Of course, the majority of players will be playing at roughly the level that their ability merits. But you will get the odd player who have much greater capability, which hasn't been realised for a number of possible reasons, one might be that they are still young and are on an upward trajectory (e.g. Alli at MK Dons), secondly their development may have been blighted by injury, or thirdly their skillset or physique doesn't match up to expectations of what a professional footballer in the British game should possess (e.g. Britton and Rangel at Swansea, Lallana at Southampton - all previously League One players). With his injury history, and still only 23 Bradshaw satisfies the first two criteria, and it's too early to say whether or not he satisfies the third. I'm not aware that Church has much in the way of injuries and is now 27, so it's very hard to make a case for him showing a Vardyesque late development. What you see with Church is very probably what you'll get from now on. Ultimately it's all down to a question of judgement. Before I saw him play against Ukraine I was a bit sceptical about Bradshaw's merits - even though he caught my eye as a 16 year old playing for Aberystwyth in the Welsh Cup final. Whilst acknowledging there's not a lot to go on on the basis of a 20 minute performance, my gut feeling about him is that he can do a job for us - as much based on his link play as anything else. He completed 8 out of 9 passes - all crisp and controlled and usable by the recipient. I would argue that Bradshaw's credentials are stronger than George Williams', if you compare their respective club game times - and yet there's a good chance that the latter will be selected for France - presumably on the basis that they (correctly in my opinion) discern something exceptional about George. If the likes of George Williams and Emyr Huws can be selected on the basis of very little game time professionally or for Wales then why not Bradshaw? The case for Bradshaw certainly isn't compelling, but the case for finding an alternative to Church is. |
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Post by richierich333 on Apr 1, 2016 8:01:50 GMT
The Alli comparison is a good one. When they annihilated Man Utd in the cup this was the springboard to bigger and better things for him. Without that result he could very well still be at Stadium: MK, in relative obscurity, who's to know. I know I had never heard of him before that. My point is not all players particularly younger ones, are in League 1 or lower because that is their true level.
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Post by richierich333 on Apr 1, 2016 8:07:06 GMT
I can't say I'm a fan of Simon Church but this hysteria regarding Bradshaw beggers belief. A few points Don't people think they monitored Bradshaw in training looking how he fared against Ash, Chester etc. He may well of been out of his depth.Bradshaw has played for Wallsall and Shrewsbury so the comparisons with David Healy are well wide of the mark Our success has been built on team spirit and unless we are bringing in someone definitely better then we should stick with the players who got us there. and finally the best way to compare them is to look at their records when they played at the same level Wales U21a Bradshaw 8 caps 1 goal Church 15 caps 8 goals Hardly a compelling case for Bradshaw Just have to pick you up on the point about training: What the hell is Church doing in training that we are all unaware of then. I doubt very much he's nutmegging Ash, beating Collins in the Air and doing a rabona over Chester's head before lobbing 6ft5 Hennessey to the delight of an onlooking Coleman ...''well done my son...well done''. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2016 8:55:01 GMT
I can't say I'm a fan of Simon Church but this hysteria regarding Bradshaw beggers belief. A few points Don't people think they monitored Bradshaw in training looking how he fared against Ash, Chester etc. He may well of been out of his depth.Bradshaw has played for Wallsall and Shrewsbury so the comparisons with David Healy are well wide of the mark Our success has been built on team spirit and unless we are bringing in someone definitely better then we should stick with the players who got us there. and finally the best way to compare them is to look at their records when they played at the same level Wales U21a Bradshaw 8 caps 1 goal Church 15 caps 8 goals Hardly a compelling case for Bradshaw Just have to pick you up on the point about training: What the hell is Church doing in training that we are all unaware of then. I doubt very much he's nutmegging Ash, beating Collins in the Air and doing a rabona over Chester's head before lobbing 6ft5 Hennessey to the delight of an onlooking Coleman ...''well done my son...well done''.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2016 8:59:22 GMT
The pass completion alarch highlighted is the pertinent stat here. Even if he doesn't score at least Bradshaw can get involved positively.
I would be interested in seeing Church's passing stats as to my eye whenever the ball goes up to him it comes straight back.
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Post by iot on Apr 1, 2016 9:14:08 GMT
I can't say I'm a fan of Simon Church but this hysteria regarding Bradshaw beggers belief. A few points Don't people think they monitored Bradshaw in training looking how he fared against Ash, Chester etc. He may well of been out of his depth. Bradshaw has played for Wallsall and Shrewsbury so the comparisons with David Healy are well wide of the mark Our success has been built on team spirit and unless we are bringing in someone definitely better then we should stick with the players who got us there. and finally the best way to compare them is to look at their records when they played at the same level Wales U21a Bradshaw 8 caps 1 goal Church 15 caps 8 goals Hardly a compelling case for Bradshaw So you really think that the "best way to compare them" is to compare their few U21 appearances as opposed to many, many more at league level? What I will say about Church is that when he first came on the scene he looked an exiting prospect. His performances in the U21 play-offs against England impressed me a lot, but sadly he just hasn't kicked on. In fact, he looks less impressive now than he did then. Perhaps the Welsh management team see something in training that us fans never get to see, but any objective assessment of his performances at club and international level can hardly be favourable. It's too easy to dismiss players simply on the basis of the level they are currently playing at. Of course, the majority of players will be playing at roughly the level that their ability merits. But you will get the odd player who have much greater capability, which hasn't been realised for a number of possible reasons, one might be that they are still young and are on an upward trajectory (e.g. Alli at MK Dons), secondly their development may have been blighted by injury, or thirdly their skillset or physique doesn't match up to expectations of what a professional footballer in the British game should possess (e.g. Britton and Rangel at Swansea, Lallana at Southampton - all previously League One players). With his injury history, and still only 23 Bradshaw satisfies the first two criteria, and it's too early to say whether or not he satisfies the third. I'm not aware that Church has much in the way of injuries and is now 27, so it's very hard to make a case for him showing a Vardyesque late development. What you see with Church is very probably what you'll get from now on. Ultimately it's all down to a question of judgement. Before I saw him play against Ukraine I was a bit sceptical about Bradshaw's merits - even though he caught my eye as a 16 year old playing for Aberystwyth in the Welsh Cup final. Whilst acknowledging there's not a lot to go on on the basis of a 20 minute performance, my gut feeling about him is that he can do a job for us - as much based on his link play as anything else. He completed 8 out of 9 passes - all crisp and controlled and usable by the recipient. I would argue that Bradshaw's credentials are stronger than George Williams', if you compare their respective club game times - and yet there's a good chance that the latter will be selected for France - presumably on the basis that they (correctly in my opinion) discern something exceptional about George. If the likes of George Williams and Emyr Huws can be selected on the basis of very little game time professionally or for Wales then why not Bradshaw? The case for Bradshaw certainly isn't compelling, but the case for finding an alternative to Church is. I'm not sure on some of your reasoning there alarch. You correctly say the general rule is that the level played at (i.e. League 1 in this case) reflects the players' abilities but with some exceptions to that rule. However, you then go on to say we should take a punt on Bradshaw in the hope that he is the exception to that rule which doesn't really stack up. He hasn't even stood out in League 1 and is only eighth on the topsocrers list. You've also, in my opinion, read far too much into his cameo appearance against Ukraine. I agree that he did well, but I think Lawrence showed even nicer touches and movement in his first couple of game for us and he hasn't looked anywhere near ready for this level since then. As I've consistently said, i'm happy if Bradshaw is picked ahead of Church but let's not make him out to be more than what he is and let's not overreact if/when Church is chosen ahead of him. |
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Post by Sincere on Apr 1, 2016 10:24:14 GMT
Speaking of striking prospects I was just reading about that lad that Swansea loaned to Newport who hit a hat trick on his debut after coming on as a sub in the 60th minute. Turns out he is a Scottish under 21. Nice to see Swansea doing their bit for Wales at youth level... Even more reason to hope Bradshaw is the real deal. Swansea City told Newport County that they couldn't loan Oli McBurnie again, and a week later they loaned him to our rivals, Bristol Rovers, and he debuted for them against us. A lot of County fans detest the Jacks for that. As for Tom Bradshaw, if he isn't on the plane, I would be gutted. It is great to see a lad progressing from the Welsh Prem to the national side. From a technical view: Shooting accuracy - TB, Strength - SC, Speed - TB, Link-up play- TB, Attacking positioning - TB, Stamina - TB, Heading - SC... I could go on, but overall, I feel Tom Bradshaw would be a better person to take to France. The major stumbling block for me is the fact that Simon Church has helped us qualify, and now we will possibly ditch him. Bradshaw has to be a Championship player next season. |
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Post by alarch on Apr 1, 2016 11:01:42 GMT
I'm not sure on some of your reasoning there alarch. You correctly say the general rule is that the level played at (i.e. League 1 in this case) reflects the players' abilities but with some exceptions to that rule. However, you then go on to say we should take a punt on Bradshaw in the hope that he is the exception to that rule which doesn't really stack up. He hasn't even stood out in League 1 and is only eighth on the topsocrers list. You've also, in my opinion, read far too much into his cameo appearance against Ukraine. I agree that he did well, but I think Lawrence showed even nicer touches and movement in his first couple of game for us and he hasn't looked anywhere near ready for this level since then. As I've consistently said, i'm happy if Bradshaw is picked ahead of Church but let's not make him out to be more than what he is and let's not overreact if/when Church is chosen ahead of him. I've come up with some evidence-based arguments for why Bradshaw should be included - so to say that I went "on to say we should take a punt on Bradshaw" simply ignores the arguments I've presented. Pretty much everybody agrees that the case for Bradshaw isn't tremendously strong - but this is set against a very strong argument against Church's non-inclusion. You also state that Bradshaw hasn't stood out in League 1 - basing this simply on the fact that he's eighth in the top-scorers list (incidentally his 15 goals are only 6 behind the top-scorer's tally. He also has an impressive 64% shot on target ratio). And yet you (like me) know next to nothing about his all-round game. It's pretty clear that Bradshaw isn't a front-man, and I suspect he's much less of an out-and-out goalscorer, and rather has is more involved in creating goals. I don't know this is true - but if his cameo against Ukraine is anything to go by this would be unsurprising. The thing about Church is that he doesn't seem to be one thing or the other. He's not a target man in the way Vokes or HRK are, and yet he doesn't seem well suited to playing off the main striker either. I can't recall ever seeing Church drop into deeper areas to pick up and lay off the ball as Bradshaw did the other night. Church's one and only thing seems to be to play on the shoulder and make runs across the defensive line. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but he seems very limited, and contributes next to nothing to build-up play. What would satisfy me is knowing that the choice in which forwards go to France isn't already made. If the likes of Church and Bradshaw have been told that their place isn't assured and that they will be closely monitored between now and the Euros, and that they have every chance of going, then I would be content. It will be much easier to support Church's inclusion if a convincing case can be made for him being there on merit. No one has yet made that case. |
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Post by iot on Apr 1, 2016 11:34:07 GMT
I'm not sure on some of your reasoning there alarch. You correctly say the general rule is that the level played at (i.e. League 1 in this case) reflects the players' abilities but with some exceptions to that rule. However, you then go on to say we should take a punt on Bradshaw in the hope that he is the exception to that rule which doesn't really stack up. He hasn't even stood out in League 1 and is only eighth on the topsocrers list. You've also, in my opinion, read far too much into his cameo appearance against Ukraine. I agree that he did well, but I think Lawrence showed even nicer touches and movement in his first couple of game for us and he hasn't looked anywhere near ready for this level since then. As I've consistently said, i'm happy if Bradshaw is picked ahead of Church but let's not make him out to be more than what he is and let's not overreact if/when Church is chosen ahead of him. I've come up with some evidence-based arguments for why Bradshaw should be included - so to say that I went "on to say we should take a punt on Bradshaw" simply ignores the arguments I've presented. Pretty much everybody agrees that the case for Bradshaw isn't tremendously strong - but this is set against a very strong argument against Church's non-inclusion. You also state that Bradshaw hasn't stood out in League 1 - basing this simply on the fact that he's eighth in the top-scorers list (incidentally his 15 goals are only 6 behind the top-scorer's tally. He also has an impressive 64% shot on target ratio). And yet you (like me) know next to nothing about his all-round game. It's pretty clear that Bradshaw isn't a front-man, and I suspect he's much less of an out-and-out goalscorer, and rather has is more involved in creating goals. I don't know this is true - but if his cameo against Ukraine is anything to go by this would be unsurprising. The thing about Church is that he doesn't seem to be one thing or the other. He's not a target man in the way Vokes or HRK are, and yet he doesn't seem well suited to playing off the main striker either. I can't recall ever seeing Church drop into deeper areas to pick up and lay off the ball as Bradshaw did the other night. Church's one and only thing seems to be to play on the shoulder and make runs across the defensive line. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but he seems very limited, and contributes next to nothing to build-up play. What would satisfy me is knowing that the choice in which forwards go to France isn't already made. If the likes of Church and Bradshaw have been told that their place isn't assured and that they will be closely monitored between now and the Euros, and that they have every chance of going, then I would be content. It will be much easier to support Church's inclusion if a convincing case can be made for him being there on merit. No one has yet made that case. In a toss up between Bradshaw and Church I'd probably go for Bradshaw too. I haven't rated Church at all since his promising breakthrough fizzled out and always despair when he starts for us. However, the evidence to suggest Bradshaw is an improvement is extremely weak and your 'evidence-based arguments', in my opinion, is also exaggerated. On balance I'd go for Bradshaw but I don't like the exaggeration of his ability and likely impact on the team and I don't like the way many are using this to have a massive go at Coleman. 'Pretty much everybody agrees that the case for Bradshaw isn't tremendously strong' - If this were true I wouldn't have a problem but there have been some on here suggesting that his inclusion should be a given and are adamant that he'll have a far greater impact than Church and Vokes when there is no strong evidence to suggest this is the case. |
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Post by alarch on Apr 1, 2016 12:17:33 GMT
I can't speak for anyone else, but when I see Church's name on the team list, my heart sinks. So there is a natural tendency to cast around in desperation for alternatives. I think a reasoned case can be made for Bradshaw - but there's no denying that there's a big negative driver in the background.
As for Coleman, ultimately he will be judged in the round. If he includes Church and leaves Bradshaw out I'll be disappointed. But if that were offset by the inclusion of the likes of Huws, Joniesta and George Williams then I'll be content. Some of his decisions baffle me, but I don't expect him to think just like me, and for me to agree with all his decisions. He could (and is) still be doing a very good job in spite of the odd blindspot.
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