Rhys Williams

[flynnfan]

misses out on the world cup. shame for the lad- I feel really sorry for him ;D

[marsvolta]

i'm never quite sure if i want him to fall flat on his face or turn into a huge superstar to ensure that we learn our lesson and tie all dual qualified players to us so it doesnt happen again.(then again,we didnt learn from hargreaves)

[Tim P]

yes, me too flynny ;D .

i am so sad for him. i feel his pain as if it were mine. i want to reassure him that everything will be okay. i want to do anything i can in order to make this summer easier.

karma truly is a bitch. fact.

although, i should add: i do think, ultimately, he made the right decision. if it was the other way round, i would be applauding a Welsh lad for keeping it real - in the end.

still stinks that he went back on his word though. or, simply used the u21s all along.

so, HA-HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA it is.

[saints19]

I would support a player who stuck to what he felt was his true country consistently, even when better options might have seemed available. But that's the opposite of what Williams did; Welsh when it suited him, then Australian when it didn't.

[cymruunedig]

Exactly, Rhys Williams used our Welsh U21s (easier and more convenient to play in Europe than play U21 games in Tokyo, Seoul and Bahrain I guess), threw a tantrum when he didn't get a cap on his first call-up, and then threw in his lot with Australia.

I've no sympathy for the guy whatsoever. Incidentally, I have no problem with David Jones or Ryan Shawcross, two players who could play for Wales but have categorically said they feel English and would only aim to be part of the English set-up. Nothing wrong with that, it's what they feel and good luck to them. I'd rather see this honest attitude than mercenaries like Hargreaves and Williams!

Enjoy your Foster's on the beach this summer Rhys

[llannerch]

Jun 4, 2010 9:32:12 GMT cymruunedig said:

I'd rather see this honest attitude than mercenaries like Hargreaves and Williams!

I've never had a problem with Hargreaves. He never played for us at U21 level. He played only a handful of friendlies at U18 level for us. A kid plays a couple of games for the first country to show an interest and is labelled a mercenary . Jimmy Shoulder wasn't surprised he jumped ship at the time so get over it

[flynnfan]

Yeah, I don't have such big problem with Hargreaves either. The difference with Williams was all his talk of 'Wales gave me chance' and 'I owe it to Wales' etc

[saints19]

I have no problem with Shawcross, save that he injured Ramsey (curse him for that).

Hargreaves did play for us at under-18s, which to me is being a mercenary and whoring yourself out to the best apparent option. Frankly, I don't know what nationality Hargreaves really considers himself. I'd guess it'd be Canadian but I guess he was never going to play for them.

[llannerch]

Jun 4, 2010 17:09:34 GMT saints19 said:

Hargreaves did play for us at under-18s, which to me is being a mercenary and whoring yourself out to the best apparent option.

"Whoring yourself out" vs "being flattered at the first country to show an interest". Definitely the latter

[llannerch]

Jun 4, 2010 17:09:34 GMT saints19 said:

Frankly, I don't know what nationality Hargreaves really considers himself. I'd guess it'd be Canadian but I guess he was never going to play for them.

So a person can only have one nationality? It's not possible to have dual nationality, or more, and have equal allegiance to both/all?

[saints19]

Clearly Hargreaves doesn't have equal allegiance to all his nationalities, as he ran off to the English set-up at the first sight of interest. If he'd genuinely felt equally Welsh and English logic would suggest that he'd stick to his first choice.

What, incidentally, is the difference between "whoring yourself out" and "being flattered at the first country to show an interest"?

[Tim P]

honestly, i dont imagine hargreaves has any kind of national alleigance. he is a mercenary, pue and simple - and in his case, i dont really blame him. but more fool any english fan who truly believes he gives a shit about them.

[llannerch]

So where do people stand on, say, Ben Thatcher or Fredi Kanoute?

Or Koumas?

[Tim P]

ben thatcher - clearly did not give a shit about Wales.

kanoute - i would refer you to an article/interview with spur's essou-ekotu in the guardian. basically, there is a generation of french-africans who feel like aliens in france and consider themselves african.

koumas - i think his problems go beyond football in all honesty.

[llannerch]

Jun 7, 2010 16:14:08 GMT Tim P said:

kanoute - i would refer you to an article/interview with spur's essou-ekotu in the guardian. basically, there is a generation of french-africans who feel like aliens in france and consider themselves african

But applying the Hargreaves logic, Fredi is a mercenary because he played for France at U21 before switching to Mali. No?

And Thatcher was clearly being mercenary - as soon as playing for Wales got to much hassle and there wasn't a tournament at the end of it, he quit

[Tim P]

i disagree, they are different cases.

hargreaves, i suggest, has no feeling of allegieance to anyone. so, he's a mercenary - and i dont blame him really.

kanoute, i suggest, has complex identity issues. technically, he is french of african descent. but what does he feel?

ofcourse, it could be suggested that kanoute chose mali as he felt he had no chance, especially at the time, of getting into the french team. however, this one example, doesnt take away from the general argument put forward by assou-ekotu.

[flynnfan]

Just been reading about a footballer called Joe Baker, who was the first England international to represent them never having played in the English system ( Owen Hargreaves is the only one since). He was born in Liverpool to Scottish parents because his father was serving in the navy there at the time. When he was still a baby they moved back up to Scotland, where he grew up, learnt his football, played for Scotand schoolboys, signed for Hibs and became a star. Presumably he also spoke with a Scottish accent, considered himself Scottish and would have wanted to play for them( although these are only guesses) ...yet due to his English birthplace, he was only eligable to play for England! ( he won around 7 caps, scored a few goals and nearly made the 66 world cup squad) Bizarrely, his brother Gerry played for the USA because his father was working in New York at the time of his birth! This situation that existed till the early 70s (you can only play for the country where you were born) was clearly ridiculous, so I have absolutely no problem with the parent/ Grandparent rule. I also support the new 'school rule'- it clearly makes sense in my mind.

Where I do have a problem with is countries being able to naturalise players (mainly Brazilians) after they have only spent a short time in that country and only went there to play for football in the first place - ie Eduardo playing for Croatia after being there less than 3 years. Guererro paying for Poland after living there for around 2. This is something that should be severly tightened up and standardised across the world - maybe you can only play for a country if you have lived and worked there for at least 6 years.

I also have a problem with the rule that says you can play for any UK nation if you were born outside the UK and hold a British passport. I know we've gained good players like Eric Young and John Robinson with this rule, but it still doesn't mke much sense to me.

[Tim P]

agree with all of that.

there is a lot of money, comparitavely speaking, in azerbaijani football - i wouldnt be surprised to see their team made up of at least 50% brazillian players in five years time. seems odd.

the naturalisation law is flawed in my opinion. as soon as you qualify, you can move to another league in another country - thus totally breaking any tangible link to your international side.

seriously, will eduardo EVER set foot in croatia again for anything other than international appearances?

[saints19]

Excellent points Trendy. Azeri football is improving thanks to oil cashish, and they will probably rely on 'naturalised' players in the immediate future. They had a couple in the last campaign - Fabio Luis Ramin (Brazilian) and the Russian guy who I remember. If we have to play them in future (we're not due, since we've played them in two recent groups), I would obviously prefer if they had to rely on true Azeris alone.

I also agree with flynnfan's points about tightening up the naturalisation laws and UK passport laws.

[flynnfan]

I think the naturalisation thing is an issue that could well come to a head at some point in the near future- perhaps even at this world cup. Imagine, for example, the fuss there would be in Brazil if Cacau scores the goal for Germany that puts them out. (Incedentally, I don't have a big problem with Cacau playing for the Germans beacuse he's been there for ten years, only made his debut last year at the age of 28, never represented Brazil at all and he speaks very good German)

[llannerch]

It's not football associations that naturalise players but government authorities. If the Polish authorities wants to naturalise a Brazilian after 3 years, but the Russian are happy to do it after 18 months, that's a matter for the respective governments. FIFA can do sweet fanny adams about it.

Of course, if governments want to break their own rules to do it to pander to a football association, they can do. FIFA can't touch em

[llannerch]

Jun 7, 2010 18:32:34 GMT flynnfan said:

maybe you can only play for a country if you have lived and worked there for at least 6 years.

Who would enforce it? Conceivably FIFA could ask associations to honour a gentleman's agreement but it couldn't bind any associations to it.

[flynnfan]

I'm pretty sure FIFA can do something about it, and I think someone from FIFA recently said something about how they're going to have to do something about it, otherwise several European and oil-rich arab nations' football teams will turn into Brazil B teams.

Didn't Kevin Pieterson have to live and play cricket in the UK for several years (4 perhaps?) before playing for England? And this is despite him having an English mother, which presumably meant he had a British passport long before he could play for England (?) So the 2 things can be seperated. I don't know for sure, but I guess he had to wait to play for England because of ICC regulations. Surely FIFA can do the same?

[saints19]

Jun 8, 2010 21:32:47 GMT llannerch said:

It's not football associations that naturalise players but government authorities. If the Polish authorities wants to naturalise a Brazilian after 3 years, but the Russian are happy to do it after 18 months, that's a matter for the respective governments. FIFA can do sweet fanny adams about it.

Of course, if governments want to break their own rules to do it to pander to a football association, they can do. FIFA can't touch em

Surely governments set citizenship laws but FIFA/UEFA set eligibility criteria? Governments cannot directly put people forward for the national team. If FIFA wanted to make eligibility laws more strict (such as allowing qualification for a national team only on the grounds of birth, parental heritage or spending a given number of years of compulsory education in that country, they would have the power to do so?

[llannerch]

But who is FIFA? The member associations...the smaller of which will wish to scale back eligibility rules to make fewer players available for selection in the future? Course not. And since in the case of UEFA, Platini's main constituency is the smaller European nations the continental associations are unlikely to go for it either

[flynnfan]

I'm pretty sure that someone from FIFA did say something recently about doing something about this, but I can't find the quote anywhere. If it keeps going the way it is, the likes of Azerbaijan and Qatar will become Brazil B teams, and international football will become a bit of a joke.

[llannerch]

Jun 23, 2010 12:20:25 GMT flynnfan said:

and international football will become a bit of a joke.

To managers in the top divisions of England, Italy, Spain, etc it already is

[llannerch]

Jun 23, 2010 12:20:25 GMT flynnfan said:

I'm pretty sure that someone from FIFA did say something recently about doing something about this, but I can't find the quote anywhere.

Hate to be cyncial but FIFA is more interested in being seen to do something about this

[flynnfan]

yeah, I think you're probably right on both these points.

It's just frustrating. In recent years we've lost games to Poland because of goals scored by a Nigerian (Olisadebe) and a Brazilian (Guerreiro) who, as far as I'm aware have no Polish family and had only gone to Poland in the first place to play professional football. The thing is, the whole naturalisation of players puts us at a real disadvantage, because you simply cannot become a Welsh citizen, because there is no such thing (sorry Trendy) Jay Bothroyd for instance, could spend the rest of his career at Cardiff City- he will never become a Welsh citizen though, he'll always be 'British' (for all I know he probably still lives in Englad anyway and commutes to training).

[Tim P]

no, i agree - in legal terms, there isn't such a thing.

this will change over time, but in footballing terms, and for the foreseeable future, we are at a disadvantage.