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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 15:24:49 GMT
Blake had the odd decent game but should never hace played ahead of Collins Blake wasn't good enough for championship football whereas Collins has played most of his career in the top flight. Don't know if that is the reason behind Collins not playing much but to be dropped for an inferior player with a piss poor attitude would make most people question, why bother. But then if Speed brought back Collins and Collins had another howler and we lost then all of a sudden Blake would be the best thing ever and Speed gets the blame for changing a team that was getting results. A lesser player can fit in better in the context of the team and if you are getting results then it doesn't matter who the XI are and all pros should be wise enough to understand and appreciate that. As it was, can you recall how Collins seized the opportunity when he returned to the fold under Coleman? Oh yeah, he got sent off and single handedly derailed our campaign before it had even begun. In that respect, I am very tempted to say I would rather have a Blake who is consistently average (attitude aside) than a guy who on his day is very good but who can also piss your entire campaign up the wall in a second. |
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Post by alarch on Jan 20, 2015 17:52:15 GMT
Collins is an immensely frustrating player. At his best he's imperious and one of our better players. If you could guarantee that he could play at that level there wouldn't be a question about his place in the Welsh team. Trouble is, selecting him is a bit like playing Russian Roulette. When he's good he's very good, when he's bad he's a complete liability. And there's no knowing in advance which James Collins will turn up.
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Post by squatter1 on Jan 20, 2015 18:30:54 GMT
Collins is an immensely frustrating player. At his best he's imperious and one of our better players. If you could guarantee that he could play at that level there wouldn't be a question about his place in the Welsh team. Trouble is, selecting him is a bit like playing Russian Roulette. When he's good he's very good, when he's bad he's a complete liability. And there's no knowing in advance which James Collins will turn up. So let's open this one up again - what's the evidence for his 'complete liability' again? So, we have the red card against Belgium, check. Are we including him being beaten for the goal away to Montenegro? What else? |
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Post by Baxter Cymru on Jan 20, 2015 18:38:55 GMT
Slip against england at home, didn't he give away a penalty in that game to?
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Post by welshwizard79 on Jan 20, 2015 19:32:42 GMT
Slip against england at home, didn't he give away a penalty in that game to? First 10 minutes. Foul on Ashley Young. He is a diver mind but it effectively killed the game and atmosphere. They scored again soon after and it was all over. I'm not a Collins hater he's a very good defender and has had more good games than crap games for Wales it's just his record for turning up has been pretty poor. However, he seemed a positive part of the squad in Belgium and needs to come in and do a good job no Chester is out. Come on Ginge  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 19:53:00 GMT
Collins is an immensely frustrating player. At his best he's imperious and one of our better players. If you could guarantee that he could play at that level there wouldn't be a question about his place in the Welsh team. Trouble is, selecting him is a bit like playing Russian Roulette. When he's good he's very good, when he's bad he's a complete liability. And there's no knowing in advance which James Collins will turn up. So let's open this one up again - what's the evidence for his 'complete liability' again? So, we have the red card against Belgium, check. Are we including him being beaten for the goal away to Montenegro? What else? The penalty against England was nothing short of moronic and predictable. I recall where I was when it was given, thinking "I'll bet its Collins". And it was. His bad reputation also stems from how he is always sliding in last minute, a symptom of his sending off v Belgium. Hes just so reckless and as a result has you on the edge of your seat because you know he is going to do something stupid because its a feature of his 'robust' playing style. |
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Post by squatter1 on Jan 20, 2015 21:36:51 GMT
Okay, so far we've got:
"In his ten year national career, James Collins has proved a total liability because he got sent off once, and gave a penalty away once."
Think we need a few more examples before we can say there's a pattern there.
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Post by richard137 on Jan 20, 2015 21:57:33 GMT
Where playing Israel next not Spain away!
Collins will be fine if fit! We also have Dummet who is a similar player to Chester versatile and confident on the ball.
Personally all being fit i see us taking all 3 points in march
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 22:01:12 GMT
Okay, so far we've got: "In his ten year national career, James Collins has proved a total liability because he got sent off once, and gave a penalty away once." Think we need a few more examples before we can say there's a pattern there. His attendance record also deserves mention. He has a poor number of caps for all his years in the game. The 'whys' of this are immaterial, if the guy has a poor attendance record then he cant be relied upon to be the spine of a team, hence why I am so glad we have Chester, you dont see him diving in all over the place, being reckless. I would say 'and he turns up' although thats probably very unfair after only 5 appearances when we have been doing alright. Collins is a squad player at this point in time and given his history I think thats the best place for him. I hope that when required is fit and does a professional job. |
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Post by bellamyroundsbuffon on Jan 20, 2015 23:47:43 GMT
Chester at right back is a tempter to try, that's for sure. But it should be noted he's played there for Hull only under desperate circumstances - ie when all their dedicated RBs were out. I guess if he starts playing there more often, we should take note, but currently I think he should only really be seen as a back-up in that slot. Really not sure what he would offer going forward in an overlapping role, for example. Agree with this. Maybe only try him there in an away tie we can't afford to lose where defence is paramount. |
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Post by bellamyroundsbuffon on Jan 20, 2015 23:52:14 GMT
Aye, Israel is a huge game, we should definitely go for a win. Fingers crossed no major injuries. Can't see why we can't get 3 points out there, especially if there are no injury problems. Having looked at their squad, we are by far a better team on paper. Most of their players play in the Israeli top flight. One or two in La Liga and Ligue 1. Not sure what kind of standard the Israeli top flight is in comparison to the Prem. Have to say, I would take a draw away as long as we beat them at the CCS. I'm not so sure we can be too over-confident. Watched them on the telly in Six Nations Bar after the Belgium game and they decimated Bosnia. Played really, really well. On their own patch we can't be expecting them to not give us a game. |
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Post by welshiron on Jan 21, 2015 9:03:45 GMT
Blake had the odd decent game but should never hace played ahead of Collins Blake wasn't good enough for championship football whereas Collins has played most of his career in the top flight. Don't know if that is the reason behind Collins not playing much but to be dropped for an inferior player with a piss poor attitude would make most people question, why bother. But then if Speed brought back Collins and Collins had another howler and we lost then all of a sudden Blake would be the best thing ever and Speed gets the blame for changing a team that was getting results. A lesser player can fit in better in the context of the team and if you are getting results then it doesn't matter who the XI are and all pros should be wise enough to understand and appreciate that. As it was, can you recall how Collins seized the opportunity when he returned to the fold under Coleman? Oh yeah, he got sent off and single handedly derailed our campaign before it had even begun. In that respect, I am very tempted to say I would rather have a Blake who is consistently average (attitude aside) than a guy who on his day is very good but who can also piss your entire campaign up the wall in a second. Laughing my head off, you would rather have Blake than Collins in your team, and as for Blake being consistent, do you mean consistently pissed? Your football knowledge must be up there with the greats as you seem to know more than any manager who has had them at club level Collins nearly 300 games, mainly in the top division Blake just over a 100 mainly in the lower leagues He should never have been picked ahead of Collins on the back of one or two good games. How many of you want Cotterill to start after he played so well against Cyprus or James Wilson who did noting wrong in Belgium |
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Post by yanto on Jan 21, 2015 10:00:09 GMT
just to give a little context to the difficulty of being a CB and getting the blame. Which defender away to Croatia, after being given specific instructions given the wet, shitty pitch, to twat it into the stands if in doubt, played a shit pass to allow Croatia to score and effectively end the game? And no it was not Collins. No one is referencing shit refs, but acknowledging divers. Come on give him a break, top guy, top player will give his all for us. End of.
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Post by matty on Jan 21, 2015 11:12:28 GMT
But then if Speed brought back Collins and Collins had another howler and we lost then all of a sudden Blake would be the best thing ever and Speed gets the blame for changing a team that was getting results. A lesser player can fit in better in the context of the team and if you are getting results then it doesn't matter who the XI are and all pros should be wise enough to understand and appreciate that. As it was, can you recall how Collins seized the opportunity when he returned to the fold under Coleman? Oh yeah, he got sent off and single handedly derailed our campaign before it had even begun. In that respect, I am very tempted to say I would rather have a Blake who is consistently average (attitude aside) than a guy who on his day is very good but who can also piss your entire campaign up the wall in a second. Laughing my head off, you would rather have Blake than Collins in your team, and as for Blake being consistent, do you mean consistently pissed? Your football knowledge must be up there with the greats as you seem to know more than any manager who has had them at club level Collins nearly 300 games, mainly in the top division Blake just over a 100 mainly in the lower leagues He should never have been picked ahead of Collins on the back of one or two good games. How many of you want Cotterill to start after he played so well against Cyprus or James Wilson who did noting wrong in Belgium The difference between storms argument and yours is that his is backed up with facts whereas yours is clouded by prejudice. Darcy was playing well in a Welsh team doing well – there was no need to change personnel just because somebody was playing at a higher club level. You don’t like Darcy and nothing will change your opinion – we get that. To make flippant remarks insinuating he was “consistently drunk” whilst playing – do you really think in todays game with the gps / heart rate monitors and other technology used that someone could get away with being drunk or hungover? Why let the obvious facts get in the way of your story though. |
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Post by welshiron on Jan 21, 2015 11:47:36 GMT
Matty, it is not fact that Blake was playing consistantly well for Wales, that is opinion, in my opinion he had one stand out game against England, a game which we lost.
FACT : Darcy Blake has played about 100 games in 8 years, mainly in the lower leagues
FACT : He has had more than one manager question his attitude / professionalism
For me you play your best team and in my opinion at no stage were Wales a better team picking Blake ahead of Collins.
FACT : Collins has played over 300 league games, majority in the premiership
FACT : Collins is still playing in the premier league
FACT : Darcy Blake is without a club and been sent home by Newport when they seemed to be the only club showing an interest
I have never met either of the players and have no prejudice against Blake, although I never rated him as a player, he didn't seem to have a suitable position, not tall enough for a centre half and not quick enough to be a full back
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Post by welshiron on Jan 21, 2015 11:49:16 GMT
Matty
Should James Wilson have kept his place after Belgium?
Would you have picked Cotterill in Belgium?
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Post by flynnfan on Jan 21, 2015 12:08:30 GMT
Okay, so far we've got: "In his ten year national career, James Collins has proved a total liability because he got sent off once, and gave a penalty away once." Think we need a few more examples before we can say there's a pattern there. Let's look at it this way... (and please, correct me if you think I am wrong) I can't remember James Collins having a single good game for Wales between Denmark away in Nov 2008 (1.0 win) and Macedonia home Oct 2013 (1.0 win) Even games he played that we won in that period, like the 2-0 away in Leichtenstein in Oct 2009, he was dodgy. I remember one of their forwards (who's probably a banker or postman or something) skipping right through the heart of our defence, before dragging his shot horribly wide with glory beckoning... So, unless I'm corrected, James Collins didn't have a single good game at international level for fully FIVE YEARS. Having said that, since the Macedonia game, he's generally been superb- both in terms of performances and attitude. Long may it continue. |
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Post by matty on Jan 21, 2015 13:40:49 GMT
Matty, it is not fact that Blake was playing consistantly well for Wales, that is opinion, in my opinion he had one stand out game against England, a game which we lost. FACT : Darcy Blake has played about 100 games in 8 years, mainly in the lower leagues FACT : He has had more than one manager question his attitude / professionalism For me you play your best team and in my opinion at no stage were Wales a better team picking Blake ahead of Collins. FACT : Collins has played over 300 league games, majority in the premiership FACT : Collins is still playing in the premier league FACT : Darcy Blake is without a club and been sent home by Newport when they seemed to be the only club showing an interest I have never met either of the players and have no prejudice against Blake, although I never rated him as a player, he didn't seem to have a suitable position, not tall enough for a centre half and not quick enough to be a full back I can't disagree with any of your points but I will say the Darcy of now is not the Darcy of then. Darcy kept Collins out and many on here, me included, agreed with Speed's decision. There are some players who will automatically walk back into a Welsh side, even a successful side, but Collins is not one of those. My defence of Darcy is as much my argument against the guy he kept out. |
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Post by matty on Jan 21, 2015 13:55:10 GMT
Matty Should James Wilson have kept his place after Belgium? Would you have picked Cotterill in Belgium? I would have picked Cotterill in Belgium yes. I thought Coleman made the right decision but ultimately Cotterill didn't play well in circumstances very different to those of the previous Cyprus game. Wilson was at fault if my memory serves me right for the Belgium goal? I was at the game and have not seen it on tv since so apologies if I'm mistaken. Either way he came on for James Collins who was playing well so I would naturally have kept Collins in the team, but Wilson did ok and would definitely have deserved a place in the squad. |
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Post by welshiron on Jan 21, 2015 13:57:52 GMT
The Darcy of old was never a good player I'm afraid as shown by the standard of football he has played and the level he played them at
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 14:00:31 GMT
But then if Speed brought back Collins and Collins had another howler and we lost then all of a sudden Blake would be the best thing ever and Speed gets the blame for changing a team that was getting results. A lesser player can fit in better in the context of the team and if you are getting results then it doesn't matter who the XI are and all pros should be wise enough to understand and appreciate that. As it was, can you recall how Collins seized the opportunity when he returned to the fold under Coleman? Oh yeah, he got sent off and single handedly derailed our campaign before it had even begun. In that respect, I am very tempted to say I would rather have a Blake who is consistently average (attitude aside) than a guy who on his day is very good but who can also piss your entire campaign up the wall in a second. Laughing my head off, you would rather have Blake than Collins in your team, and as for Blake being consistent, do you mean consistently pissed? Your football knowledge must be up there with the greats as you seem to know more than any manager who has had them at club level Collins nearly 300 games, mainly in the top division Blake just over a 100 mainly in the lower leagues He should never have been picked ahead of Collins on the back of one or two good games. How many of you want Cotterill to start after he played so well against Cyprus or James Wilson who did noting wrong in Belgium Hey, I never picked him. Speed did. But obviously you know better than him- thats cool. I won't go back and dig up old posts and shall simply put my trust in you that while we were on that brief run you were on here apoplectic about what a travesty it is that we were winning games with a waster like Blake in the team. |
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Post by welshiron on Jan 21, 2015 14:20:51 GMT
To be honest I think Speed was wrong on this
Managers make mistakes and Speed had very little managerial experience.
Ask yourself why premiership clubs under various managers have played Collins regulary whilst no premiership manager ever took a chance on Blake.
Maybe Speed knew more than all of them.
I too don't have time to dredge up all posts but I would be sure that at no stage would I have picke Blake ahead of Collins if both fit
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Post by matty on Jan 21, 2015 14:25:24 GMT
The Darcy of old was never a good player I'm afraid as shown by the standard of football he has played and the level he played them at Darcy was decent and Championship standard at worst. Nothing spectacular no, but solid and hard working. His weakness - and you've touched on it already - was that he was never a natural centre back or full back, but could do a job in either position. Ultimately there were players who specialised in either position who would come back in and put Darcy back out in the cold again. It made a refreshing change to see Speed stick with Darcy at centre back because the easy decision was to put Collins back in, but to me and many others Darcy did deserve to keep his place. Anyway this is old news and I'll end it with something I am sure we both agree on - Darcy won't be anywhere near the Wales team ever again. |
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Post by squatter1 on Jan 21, 2015 14:26:26 GMT
Speed was also wrong in making Ramsey captain at such a young age and when he was struggling to come back from a leg break.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 14:31:57 GMT
But then its hardly a new concept is it to play players that complement each other rather than their best XI on paper. If it was all about picking your best XI then football management would be a lot simpler than it is. Its about finely nuanced combinations on the pitch.
There is also a saying: "never change a winning team".
For a while Blake was on his game, his problems started later culminating in that performance against Serbia. I don;t think that negates the caps he rightly earned previously under Speed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 15:51:33 GMT
Speed was also wrong in making Ramsey captain at such a young age and when he was struggling to come back from a leg break. was he? It didn't seem like that after we thrashed Norway squatter. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 15:55:06 GMT
But then its hardly a new concept is it to play players that complement each other rather than their best XI on paper. If it was all about picking your best XI then football management would be a lot simpler than it is. Its about finely nuanced combinations on the pitch. There is also a saying: "never change a winning team". For a while Blake was on his game, his problems started later culminating in that performance against Serbia. I don;t think that negates the caps he rightly earned previously under Speed. Correct. Although after hearing some of the stuff I have been told about Darcy, I could perfectly understand why Collins would be pissed off.....subsequent to his performance against England at Wembley. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 16:02:04 GMT
But then its hardly a new concept is it to play players that complement each other rather than their best XI on paper. If it was all about picking your best XI then football management would be a lot simpler than it is. Its about finely nuanced combinations on the pitch. There is also a saying: "never change a winning team". For a while Blake was on his game, his problems started later culminating in that performance against Serbia. I don;t think that negates the caps he rightly earned previously under Speed. Correct. Although after hearing some of the stuff I have been told about Darcy, I could perfectly understand why Collins would be pissed off.....subsequent to his performance against England at Wembley. I don't think he can have any complaints. FF makes a good point that he hasn't had a good game for Wales in ages up to that point. Its sad that to get the best out of Collins you have to get in a public spat with him. Since he has been brought back in he has been a lot better. Perhaps he is now mentally focused on playing for Wales rather than going through the motions? Who knows. He has stiff competition at the moment in Chester- will he continue to turn up in light of that? Again, who knows. At least we can take comfort that if he plays v Israel it will be in his best interests to play well as Chester at the moment hasnt put a foot wrong and made himself almost indispensible. |
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Post by flynnfan on Jan 21, 2015 16:54:07 GMT
Speed was also wrong in making Ramsey captain at such a young age and when he was struggling to come back from a leg break. was he? It didn't seem like that after we thrashed Norway squatter. He was growing into the role (I said as much after the Norway game) Speed's death (understandably) had a big impact. I think Coleman was right to hand Williams the captaincy following the Serbia debacle but I hope Ramsey is appointed captain again in future. |
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Post by jbt95 on Jan 21, 2015 16:56:54 GMT
Speed was also wrong in making Ramsey captain at such a young age and when he was struggling to come back from a leg break. was he? It didn't seem like that after we thrashed Norway squatter. He had only just turned 20. I'd say no to give the captaincy to anybody at that age really. Most young captains are about 23/24 not just out of their teens. It's not like he had loads of caps either because of his broken leg. |
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