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Post by squatter1 on Jan 21, 2015 17:35:10 GMT
Speed was also wrong in making Ramsey captain at such a young age and when he was struggling to come back from a leg break. was he? It didn't seem like that after we thrashed Norway squatter. When things are going well is when you don't need your captain so much. Fast forward to 6-1 in Serbia and what kind of captain did you see there? |
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Post by cadno on Jan 21, 2015 17:42:59 GMT
was he? It didn't seem like that after we thrashed Norway squatter. When things are going well is when you don't need your captain so much. Fast forward to 6-1 in Serbia and what kind of captain did you see there? It worked under Speed, it needed to be changed under Cookie, simple. |
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Post by squatter1 on Jan 21, 2015 18:11:58 GMT
Under Speed there were no pressure games - we were already out of qualifications, there was nothing to lose.
The first pressure came when the new tournament began - even more so when it started going off the rails.
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Post by cadno on Jan 21, 2015 18:13:20 GMT
Under Speed there were no pressure games - we were already out of qualifications, there was nothing to lose. The first pressure came when the new tournament began - even more so when it started going off the rails. Great point. |
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Post by squatter1 on Jan 22, 2015 10:21:59 GMT
So, we are up to:
"James Collins is a complete and utter liability because in his 10 year Wales career:
a) he got sent off once
b) he gave a penalty away once
c) he almost let that bloke from Luxemburg score
d) Flynnfan can't remember him having a good game between 2008 and 2013
e) He hasn't played as many games as some other players
Any more damning evidence for the rap sheet?
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Post by matty on Jan 22, 2015 11:33:41 GMT
So, we are up to: "James Collins is a complete and utter liability because in his 10 year Wales career: a) he got sent off once b) he got a red card once c) he almost let that bloke from Luxemburg score d) Flynnfan can't remember him having a good game between 2008 and 2013 e) He hasn't played as many games as some other players Any more damning evidence for the rap sheet? Whats the difference between a and b? Didn't he slip for the first NI goal at Millenium too? Anyway does a mistake need to lead to a goal, almost a goal or a sending off to show that someone is a liability? I remember the first few minutes of the Croatia game at Swansea and he lost sight of a straight forward pass to him (something like that) and straight away put us under unneeded pressure. Nothing came of it but his lack of concentration scares me. Saying that I think he is a top defender most of the time, and we will definitely need him if we are to get anywhere near qualifying. I like the guy and even though I am contradicting myself I think both sides have valid points. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 11:38:47 GMT
So, we are up to: "James Collins is a complete and utter liability because in his 10 year Wales career: a) he got sent off once b) he got a red card once c) he almost let that bloke from Luxemburg score d) Flynnfan can't remember him having a good game between 2008 and 2013 e) He hasn't played as many games as some other players Any more damning evidence for the rap sheet? Thats a very disingenuous summary and I suspect you know it - particularly the 'He hasn't played as many games as some other players'. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 11:44:47 GMT
So, we are up to: "James Collins is a complete and utter liability because in his 10 year Wales career: a) he got sent off once b) he got a red card once c) he almost let that bloke from Luxemburg score d) Flynnfan can't remember him having a good game between 2008 and 2013 e) He hasn't played as many games as some other players Any more damning evidence for the rap sheet? Whats the difference between a and b? Didn't he slip for the first NI goal at Millenium too? Anyway does a mistake need to lead to a goal, almost a goal or a sending off to show that someone is a liability? I remember the first few minutes of the Croatia game at Swansea and he lost sight of a straight forward pass to him (something like that) and straight away put us under unneeded pressure. Nothing came of it but his lack of concentration scares me. Saying that I think he is a top defender most of the time, and we will definitely need him if we are to get anywhere near qualifying. I like the guy and even though I am contradicting myself I think both sides have valid points. I think you have nailed it Matty - the root cause of why he is a liability is because he doesn't concentrate and I think circumstances are proof of this. Why do we always see him play well at club level and yet struggle internationally? I would suggest that he has competition at club level. At international level there is often no pressure on him for the shirt. He knows his reputation alone is enough for him to win a cap. So he coasts through games not putting in a proper shift like he should. I wonder if that is the reason why he is often sliding in to make up for not being there in the first place? When he lost his place to Blake and had some competition he didn't seem to take kindly to it. The spat with Coleman seemed to lay down a gauntlet to him, for the first time in a Wales shirt he was under pressure to come in and prove (if only to the manager) that he still has what it takes. Is it any surprise that he was switched on for that game and put in a hell of a shift? For me 'concentration' is the key word in all of this. When he wants to, he can play very well in a Wales shirt. Can those performances be coaxed out consistently? |
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Post by flynnfan on Jan 22, 2015 11:47:16 GMT
Looks like Chester will be out till April. So Collins will have to put in a good performance in Israel.
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Post by flynnfan on Jan 22, 2015 11:48:29 GMT
d) Flynnfan can't remember him having a good game between 2008 and 2013
---------
That's FIVE YEARS btw. Can you remember him having a good game for Wales in that time?
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Post by squatter1 on Jan 22, 2015 12:12:52 GMT
d) Flynnfan can't remember him having a good game between 2008 and 2013 --------- That's FIVE YEARS btw. Can you remember him having a good game for Wales in that time? Not really, that was a particularly shitty period - Giggs just joined every other senior player in retiring because Toshack had alienated them all. Wales reduced to playing non-league centre backs and the youngest sides we've ever put out. There are several players who I can't remember having a good game during that period. The point I'm interested in is whether James Collins is in fact, as some on here maintain, "a complete and utter liability". I'm still awaiting the evidence to support that claim. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 12:27:43 GMT
d) Flynnfan can't remember him having a good game between 2008 and 2013 --------- That's FIVE YEARS btw. Can you remember him having a good game for Wales in that time? Not really, that was a particularly shitty period - Giggs just joined every other senior player in retiring because Toshack had alienated them all. Wales reduced to playing non-league centre backs and the youngest sides we've ever put out. There are several players who I can't remember having a good game during that period. The point I'm interested in is whether James Collins is in fact, as some on here maintain, "a complete and utter liability". I'm still awaiting the evidence to support that claim. And we have provided evidence  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 12:28:22 GMT
Perhaps if you disagree you could state your case as to why you do?
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Post by squatter1 on Jan 22, 2015 12:51:52 GMT
My case is that the sentence "James Collins is a complete an utter liability because in his 10 year Wales career he got sent off once, gave away a penalty once, and wasn't great between 2008-2013 in some people's opinion" holds no water. It's driven by resentment towards Collins driven by a perceived lack of commitment, and perhaps the fact he was a Cardiff player.
Collins is not a liability. Being a centre back in a succession of shit Wales teams will put you under pressure and mistakes will occasionally happen. Among every single Welsh defender we have, he has played at a higher level more consistently than any other. He is arguably still our best CB, certainly for particular types of games when we expect an aerial threat.
Given how he has gone out of his way to reaffirm his commitment to Wales even after being publically hung out to dry by his manager, the way he celebrated the Belgium game etc, people round here should be f*cking grateful he's waiting patiently in the wings now that Chester is out. The long-term grudge-bearing capacity of some fans is frankly boring.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 13:01:37 GMT
people round here should be f*cking grateful he's waiting patiently in the wings now that Chester is out. The long-term grudge-bearing capacity of some fans is frankly boring. As a Welsh football fan who like many others would regard pulling on the jersey as the ultimate priviledge I am really pleased and grateful that Collins has......."waited patiently". I am, and have been "waiting patiently" for us to achieve something of note for 4 decades mate. |
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Post by llannerch on Jan 22, 2015 13:17:56 GMT
d) Flynnfan can't remember him having a good game between 2008 and 2013 --------- That's FIVE YEARS btw. Can you remember him having a good game for Wales in that time? This game in late 2008: news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/7665093.stmCollins' first game since recovering from a cruciate injury and he was an absolute titan |
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Post by texan on Jan 22, 2015 13:32:36 GMT
Collins is a very good player, however having seen him over his career its obvious he's a slower than average learner (in football terms) and is slow to adapt, he requires repetition and familiarity to thrive.
Whilst other players can come together for Wales and train for a few days, adapt their styles to suit each other and the manager's requirements and get on with it, Collins usually needs more than a week's prep. With WHU he gets that and we see him at his best, however with Wales its often the case he's not fully clued up with his defence's movements and his colleagues' duties. Very often he thinks a team mate's covering someone when they're not, when he realises his error he tries to react quickly and sometimes makes a hash of it. Add to this the constant change in Welsh personnel from game to game in the mid to late 00's and its hardly any wonder his performances were all over the shop.
Ironically I think if we qualified and had that month together prior to the tournament Collins would probably develop into our outstanding centre-back!
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Post by llannerch on Jan 22, 2015 14:03:22 GMT
Much of Collins' career has been played alongside a pacier centre back, most notably Danny Gabbidon, but also the likes of Tomkins and Ferdinand (not sure at Villa). I believe he plays the percentages and sometimes takes, what he perceives to be calculated, risks thinking that he is safe in the knowledge that his partner will cover him. Perhaps it is not that he his error-prone but rather he isn't as good at calculating the risk as he might be. Whatever, he is an automatic squad pick and but for Chester's fine form would be in our first XI. He gets a chance, it appears based on today's news, vs Israel and if he holds onto the shirt at Chester's expense for NI and Belgium then there'd be no complaints from me
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 15:10:49 GMT
people round here should be f*cking grateful he's waiting patiently in the wings now that Chester is out. The long-term grudge-bearing capacity of some fans is frankly boring. As a Welsh football fan who like many others would regard pulling on the jersey as the ultimate priviledge I am really pleased and grateful that Collins has......."waited patiently". I am, and have been "waiting patiently" for us to achieve something of note for 4 decades mate. Touche. I would also like to place on record my thanks to James Collins for turning up occasion and taking time out from his busy schedule to play for his country. That guy Bale could learn a thing or two from him. The prosecution rests. |
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Post by flynnfan on Jan 22, 2015 16:05:43 GMT
d) Flynnfan can't remember him having a good game between 2008 and 2013 --------- That's FIVE YEARS btw. Can you remember him having a good game for Wales in that time? This game in late 2008: news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/internationals/7665093.stmCollins' first game since recovering from a cruciate injury and he was an absolute titan November 2008 (Denmark away) - October 2013 (Macedonia home) Agree he was superb in that game in Germany... but that was early 2008. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 16:12:58 GMT
Agree he was superb in that game in Germany... but that was early 2008. dead rubber. |
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Post by flynnfan on Jan 22, 2015 16:15:07 GMT
Nah.. it was the 3rd or 4th game in the group that one. |
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Post by toshfan on Jan 22, 2015 16:36:41 GMT
Is there confusion between the games against Germany in 2007 & 2008. I do not really dig the whole 'dead rubber' thing but that notwithstanding, 2007 was the last game of those qualifiers, whereas the game in 2008 was number four. It was not long after the stunning performance out in Russia when we lost 2-1 or long before the awful 0-2 loss to Finland. |
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Post by toshfan on Jan 22, 2015 16:41:30 GMT
It is fascinating how polarised opinion on Collins is. His challenge against Belgium in 2012 was deeply frustrating and do epitomise the worst features of his game. However, his performance against Macedonia at home in 2013 was outstanding and I saw him more comfortable with the ball than I had previously.
Was delighted to see him come over the fans out in Belgium a couple of months ago. He seemed to be part of the moment even though he had not played.
With no Collins, he has to play out in Israel in my view. But it strengthens my preference for a 4-1-4-1 formation. Having Allen in front of him could really work well.
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Post by llannerch on Jan 22, 2015 16:50:55 GMT
November 2008 (Denmark away) - October 2013 (Macedonia home) Agree he was superb in that game in Germany... but that was early 2008. No it was October 2008. We played Germany in Frankfurt on November 2007. Collins was injured fpr pretty much the entire intervening period |
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Post by flynnfan on Jan 22, 2015 16:56:29 GMT
November 2008 (Denmark away) - October 2013 (Macedonia home) Agree he was superb in that game in Germany... but that was early 2008. No it was October 2008. We played Germany in Frankfurt on November 2007. Collins was injured fpr pretty much the entire intervening period To clarify, I meant earlier than November 2008, when he had a good game vs Denmark away. I maintain that between that Denmark game (19/11/08) and Macedonia (11/10/13) Collins didn't have a single good game for Wales - a period of very nearly five years. |
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Post by squatter1 on Jan 22, 2015 17:10:41 GMT
Okay, if I agree that:
for a five year period, Collins did not perform well for Wales. It should be noted that the team by and large did not perform well in this period, in fact it was a complete nadir, leading to our lowest ever FIFA ranking, I believe?
Will you agree that: suggestions that Collins is a liability have been blown out of all proportion, and he is in fact arguably the best defender we have.
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Post by toshfan on Jan 22, 2015 17:59:34 GMT
Okay, if I agree that: for a five year period, Collins did not perform well for Wales. It should be noted that the team by and large did not perform well in this period, in fact it was a complete nadir, leading to our lowest ever FIFA ranking, I believe? It was a period when Welsh Football needed to be saved and it was saved by John Toshack. I disagree with the first and second half. You overlooked my 'middle of the road' contribution above (and it is rare I get the chance to do 'middle of the road') and I do not think that he is a liability but there have been examples of lapsed concentration and poor discipline have not helped. But he has, in more recent games, come good. As for the best defender, no would not go that far. Both Ash & Chester are better for us in my opinion. |
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Post by Jamie-Bins on May 22, 2015 10:55:34 GMT
He's out of Belgium game before the squad has even been announced, gutted.
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Post by ae15 on May 22, 2015 12:08:06 GMT
Well that means it's either a back four:
Gunter Chester Williams Taylor
Or a Back Five:
Gunter Chester Williams Dummett Taylor
Unless anyone else has a different idea.
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