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Post by marsvolta on Apr 7, 2020 22:02:02 GMT
Shame I can't click that link because of who that's with. Basically talks about his mixed feelings about winning the play off with Charlton as he knew how much it meant to Sunderland fans. Main point of interest for us is the fact that Stuart Pearce had a meeting with him when he was 17 and tried to get him to choose England but he says the meeting was over in a minute as his mind was made up to play for Wales after speaking to Gary Speed. |
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Post by rangers15 on Apr 8, 2020 7:47:48 GMT
i know its a pointless question - but where would Jonny be if it wasn't for all the injuries?!
Fair play to him though... he just keeps on going. even being down in league one, for him to still come back and get into the starting XI for Cymru shows his determination and talent.
Think he would have been a big part of the euros if they had been this summer, especially with Allen injured. Just hope the guy has a injury-free res of his career.
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Post by iot on Apr 12, 2020 17:28:52 GMT
i know its a pointless question - but where would Jonny be if it wasn't for all the injuries?! Fair play to him though... he just keeps on going. even being down in league one, for him to still come back and get into the starting XI for Cymru shows his determination and talent. Think he would have been a big part of the euros if they had been this summer, especially with Allen injured. Just hope the guy has a injury-free res of his career. It's difficult to say. I've loved Joniesta since he first came on the scene. His dribbling play is brilliant to watch, hence the comparison with iniesta. His ability in tight spaces and drawing defenders in is great and he also has really good technique with his control and passing. However, there's a reason why, despite being similar in style, he's nowhere near iniesta's ability. I put it down to his poor vision and decision making. He constantly opens up play through excellent initial play, but rarely has the vision to see the final pass or makes the right decision re whether to pass, where to pass or whether to take it on himself. That might have come had he had a sustained period of time injury-free to build up that understanding, but we'll never know. |
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Post by conwy10 on Apr 13, 2020 15:02:56 GMT
i know its a pointless question - but where would Jonny be if it wasn't for all the injuries?! Fair play to him though... he just keeps on going. even being down in league one, for him to still come back and get into the starting XI for Cymru shows his determination and talent. Think he would have been a big part of the euros if they had been this summer, especially with Allen injured. Just hope the guy has a injury-free res of his career. I think he’d be a Premier League player for sure. Probably playing for Crystal Palace, or Brighton, Norwich, Burnley etc. In terms of Wales I think he’d have stayed in the first team moving between holding midfield, attacker and striker. He is amazing at what he does. Keeps possession, draws fouls, take pressure off the team. I can see a Premier League team finding that an asset if they’ve been under pressure for most of the match. |
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Post by cymruramdcfc on Apr 15, 2020 10:21:40 GMT
the game he got injured v derby was the best i seen him live. his battling performance out shone every one.
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Post by iot on Jun 30, 2020 18:41:01 GMT
What's going on with Joniesta? He's been on the bench every game since the break, suggesting he's fully fit, but only made one or two brief sub appearances. They're currently drawing 0-0 against cardiff with 70mins gone and have brought on a handful of subs, none of which is joinesta. Do they not consider him good enough for the championship these days?
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Post by allezlesrouges on Jun 30, 2020 21:54:50 GMT
He was regular before the break, and his injury, I'd just suggest that either he's not 100% at the moment, or they just happen to be using a different tactic since the restart and he hasn't seen game time. I wouldn't worry about his quality - he's still a good player. We'll see how it goes for him at the start of next season.
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Post by fiveattheback on Jun 30, 2020 21:59:16 GMT
What's going on with Joniesta? He's been on the bench every game since the break, suggesting he's fully fit, but only made one or two brief sub appearances. They're currently drawing 0-0 against cardiff with 70mins gone and have brought on a handful of subs, none of which is joinesta. Do they not consider him good enough for the championship these days? They were happy with a draw from the get go, no chance he was coming on unless Cardiff scored |
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Post by cadno on Jul 1, 2020 8:24:10 GMT
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Post by sleepy on Jul 1, 2020 9:42:19 GMT
Bowyer says "That’s the thing, some people come back fitter than others. The break wasn’t kind to Jonny, let’s say" Been on the pies and stella? |
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Post by cadno on Jul 8, 2020 16:45:12 GMT
Back in the starting line up yesterday and played well according to Charlton fans!
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Post by manulike on Jul 8, 2020 18:03:11 GMT
Back in the starting line up yesterday and played well according to Charlton fans! Yes. Seen most of his 55'. Not quite as fluid as his usual self, but to be expected due to lack of game time. I was more impressed by Adam Matthews. Thought he really played well, despite the loss
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Post by manulike on Aug 5, 2020 20:30:08 GMT
ummmm ... well ... I'm no over the moon, but ...
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Post by iot on Aug 5, 2020 20:48:48 GMT
I can still see him making Welsh squads. He offers something different to our other players. When we're sluggish and want to up the tempo he's the perfect player to bring off the bench like he did against azerbaijan at home. He's unlikely to get better at this point and develop his game as we all hoped in terms of transforming the good build-up play into more of an end product, but the contribution he can make is enough to merit a squad place imo
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Post by 1gwaunview on Aug 6, 2020 11:34:50 GMT
Good to see he's got another contract at Charlton (he said he likes it there).
Someone should work with him on his end product and shooting, if he then stayed fit he'd be an even more valuable member of the squad.
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Post by cadno on Oct 1, 2020 11:11:05 GMT
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Post by gimli on Oct 1, 2020 12:16:28 GMT
It's always been his biggest weakness (apart from his injury-proneness). He'll be 27 next week and he's only scored 4 senior goals. And he doesn't really get that many assists either. I love the guy, but an attacking goal-scoring midfielder he is not. And I don't think that's likely to change now. He'd be best served being moulded into deeper lying, Joe Allen-esque player. Probably should have happened earlier in his career tbh. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 1, 2020 12:41:16 GMT
His value is in his ability to retain the ball in the final third with his dribbling. If he also had goal-making quality he'd be a Premier League player - simple as. For his qualities he's such a useful player for us, as the ability to retain ball high up the pitch is invaluable at international level. That being said it's a good thing Bowyer is trying to improve him in an area where he's weak. It was pleasing to see him get the assist against Bulgaria & I'd love to see him get a goal for us one day
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Post by alarch on Oct 1, 2020 22:33:44 GMT
I'm not convinced that Bowyer's approach will work. Yes, it would be great if Joniesta could chip in with more goals and assists - but Bowyer seems to be saying that his contribution as it stands isn't good enough to merit him starting in a League One outfit - which is a nonsense. Charlton's current league position doesn't suggest to me that the approach is being rewarded. This really interesting article on Dennis Bergkamp illustrates the limitation of being overly focussed on stats: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54299158"When I played, the stats were basic and I didn't pay much attention to them for a long time. I had a discussion with Arsene once about them, and he said to me, because I was in my 30s: 'I can see from your stats that your level is dropping after 60 or 70 minutes, that's why I take you off most of the time.' I said: 'OK, boss, but your statistics don't show that even at 80% I can make the important pass before the goal.' I always called it the pre-assist - the moment that splits the defence and leads to a goal, even if it isn't the final pass. Of course, even then you could take something out of the numbers - mostly physical data about the distance covered in a game and things like that - but ideally you have to combine that side of it with the intelligent, technical side and that still seems very difficult, even though things have progressed. With some players, their numbers do not do them justice. For example, Liverpool's Roberto Firmino is a player now who you have to see yourself to appreciate what he brings to his team. David Silva was another when he was at Manchester City, with his passing rate and how he set the tempo for them to play. Stats are another window into the game, but it is not the only way. I still think your eyes make the definite decision on certain things, and then the stats can help you - maybe to prove that you see it right. One day, perhaps, all the stats you need will be there, but for now I know which players I love watching." Understandably, Bergkamp is more interested in the greats of the game - but what he says about the limitations of stats, and the absence of certain stats - such as the pre-assists he alludes to, applies equally to more limited players - with Jonny Williams being a good example. Leon Britton was another for Swansea. In his 7 or so seasons in the Premier League he didn't score a single goal, and I think only managed one assist. Even his defensive stats were a mixed bag. Fantastic on pass completion, excellent on interceptions, but unsurprisingly, considering his diminutive stature, poor in aerial battles and tackling. But anybody who understands anything about football who saw him play regularly will know he was absolutely central to Swansea's success, and was a far superior player in comparison to his successor Jack Cork - a solid Premier League all-rounder pro, who's stats no doubt will have been better than Britton's. How do you measure a quality touch that quickly transitions a team from defence to attack? Until that sort of stat can be produced players of the ilk of Britton and Joniesta will always be short-changed. |
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 1, 2020 22:49:00 GMT
Yeah and to be fair the way we look at stats is changing to be a bit more in depth. For example the expected goals statistic you often see now is a very useful stat that gives you a bit more of a clue as to who has dominated the game than possession stats do in reality.
Assist stats can also be misleading. I remember one season Bale was being compared to Walcott years back. I saw people banging on about Walcott having something like 7 assists to Bale's 3 and using this to justify that he was a better creator than Bale. However if you just looked at the chance created column you could see that Bale had created 20 clear-cut chances to Walcott's 10. To me this stat shows how it's easy to manipulate stats to suit an agenda, and oftentimes surface level stats aren't really telling you much about what's going on
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Post by iot on Oct 1, 2020 22:50:16 GMT
I'm not convinced that Bowyer's approach will work. Yes, it would be great if Joniesta could chip in with more goals and assists - but Bowyer seems to be saying that his contribution as it stands isn't good enough to merit him starting in a League One outfit - which is a nonsense. Charlton's current league position doesn't suggest to me that the approach is being rewarded. This really interesting article on Dennis Bergkamp illustrates the limitation of being overly focussed on stats: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54299158"When I played, the stats were basic and I didn't pay much attention to them for a long time. I had a discussion with Arsene once about them, and he said to me, because I was in my 30s: 'I can see from your stats that your level is dropping after 60 or 70 minutes, that's why I take you off most of the time.' I said: 'OK, boss, but your statistics don't show that even at 80% I can make the important pass before the goal.' I always called it the pre-assist - the moment that splits the defence and leads to a goal, even if it isn't the final pass. Of course, even then you could take something out of the numbers - mostly physical data about the distance covered in a game and things like that - but ideally you have to combine that side of it with the intelligent, technical side and that still seems very difficult, even though things have progressed. With some players, their numbers do not do them justice. For example, Liverpool's Roberto Firmino is a player now who you have to see yourself to appreciate what he brings to his team. David Silva was another when he was at Manchester City, with his passing rate and how he set the tempo for them to play. Stats are another window into the game, but it is not the only way. I still think your eyes make the definite decision on certain things, and then the stats can help you - maybe to prove that you see it right. One day, perhaps, all the stats you need will be there, but for now I know which players I love watching." Understandably, Bergkamp is more interested in the greats of the game - but what he says about the limitations of stats, and the absence of certain stats - such as the pre-assists he alludes to, applies equally to more limited players - with Jonny Williams being a good example. Leon Britton was another for Swansea. In his 7 or so seasons in the Premier League he didn't score a single goal, and I think only managed one assist. Even his defensive stats were a mixed bag. Fantastic on pass completion, excellent on interceptions, but unsurprisingly, considering his diminutive stature, poor in aerial battles and tackling. But anybody who understands anything about football who saw him play regularly will know he was absolutely central to Swansea's success, and was a far superior player in comparison to his successor Jack Cork - a solid Premier League all-rounder pro, who's stats no doubt will have been better than Britton's. How do you measure a quality touch that quickly transitions a team from defence to attack? Until that sort of stat can be produced players of the ilk of Britton and Joniesta will always be short-changed. Playing the devil's advocate, I remember watching Moneyball (not sure if you've watched it, but it's based on how a baseball team used a completely stats-based approach to their recruitment and had great success) and that sounds exactly like what the opponents to a stats-based approach had to say. All the dinosaur scouts were adamant that watching players and using your eyes is a far better way to judge players than looking at their stats. But the point of the film is that we all have our biases and misconceptions, and stats cuts through all of that. Of course it depends on the effectiveness of the measures used and it might not be as easy to implement such an approach in footie as it is in baseball. But at the same time it could be that bergkamp was simply excusing his own lack of workrate and productivity, and that you're trying to excuse joniesta's poor output. As I say, just playing devil's advocate... |
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Post by alarch on Oct 1, 2020 23:01:10 GMT
You've misunderstood me if you think I'm anti-stats. Far from it - but there are limitation to stats, and certain types of players fall foul of that more than others, especially those with high technical ability and silky touch. There will probably a way eventually of properly measuring speed in transition, which is such a key ingredient in the modern game and Britton was World class at (no exaggeration). Joniesta's contribution is somewhat different, but if it wasn't for his injection of tempo and his ability to dribble through defensive lines, we wouldn't have beaten Azerbaijan in Cardiff and we would probably be contesting the play-offs.
I'm all for the clever use of stats. Brentford have been excellent at identifying talented individuals who haven't been outstanding at the headline stats (goals and assists) but whose underlying stats on chance creation and such like, suggested a much greater potential. It's an approach that has been richly rewarding for them - and pound for pound they must be one of the best performers in the English pyramid on the back of it.
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Post by cadno on Oct 1, 2020 23:38:59 GMT
God I loved watching Leon Britton play!
Jonny has been superb on the international stage at times, Scotland away, Croatia home(2013) Slovakia 2016 stand out. I agree he brings a lot to a game which stats don't really justify.
I've said it before, the emergence of Kieffer Moore and a more direct game plan was the main reason we turned our campaign around, but I'd suggest our second most influential player was Joniesta who didn't really play in the earlier games... He helped tilt things in our favour Vs Azerbaijan and Croatia home particularly. Thankfully RG seems to understand his quality, which is good to see.
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Post by richierich333 on Oct 2, 2020 7:18:21 GMT
It's hard to disagree with Bowyer about end product and ultimate contribution. I remember Terry Venables saying about Joe Cole at the start of his career that 'he was nibbling at the game and not getting involved where it counts'. However when he started to get more assists and goals he became a top player. Unfortunately this hasn't happened for Jonny. I agree with Gimli and someone should have moved him a bit deeper but unfortunately it could prove difficult at this stage.
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Post by TheWelshWay on Oct 2, 2020 9:01:02 GMT
In Ice Hockey they have 1st assist and 2nd assist - this is to recognise the importance of the through pass that creates the opportunity. A player that flicks on a beautiful cross to another player for a tap in gets the assist and goal, while the one that created it all doesn’t get recognised. like you say, all for stats, but only when stats go beyond the surface.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Oct 2, 2020 9:16:09 GMT
In Ice Hockey they have 1st assist and 2nd assist - this is to recognise the importance of the through pass that creates the opportunity. A player that flicks on a beautiful cross to another player for a tap in gets the assist and goal, while the one that created it all doesn’t get recognised. like you say, all for stats, but only when stats go beyond the surface. I didn't know that but that's a brilliant idea. So often you'll see a defence splitting ball from De Bruyne to put Sterling in behind who then squares the ball for an open goal tap in for Aguero. Sterling gets the assist & the really impressive piece of skill that created the goal isn't acknowledged or reflected in the stats. I'd bet money as well that if someone made a compilation of all of De Bruyne's '2nd assists' they'd be many wonderful passes in there. Someone needs to tell these stats companies to keep track of it |
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Post by gimli on Oct 2, 2020 9:29:15 GMT
I don't mean to downplay Jonny's contribution referring to his lack of goals and assists. As I said above, I love the guy and I agree that his ability to keep possession is invaluable. But if he's being played as an attacking midfielder, that's one attacking position in the line-up being taken by a player who won't score or assist. Which is why I'd like to see him played deeper in the Allen/Britton role, and then the more attacking role can be taken by someone with more of a goal threat so we get the best of both worlds.
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Post by iot on Oct 2, 2020 9:47:11 GMT
In Ice Hockey they have 1st assist and 2nd assist - this is to recognise the importance of the through pass that creates the opportunity. A player that flicks on a beautiful cross to another player for a tap in gets the assist and goal, while the one that created it all doesn’t get recognised. like you say, all for stats, but only when stats go beyond the surface. I didn't know that but that's a brilliant idea. So often you'll see a defence splitting ball from De Bruyne to put Sterling in behind who then squares the ball for an open goal tap in for Aguero. Sterling gets the assist & the really impressive piece of skill that created the goal isn't acknowledged or reflected in the stats. I'd bet money as well that if someone made a compilation of all of De Bruyne's '2nd assists' they'd be many wonderful passes in there. Someone needs to tell these stats companies to keep track of it I believe that Opta do collect 2nd assist stats. I remember Gareth Crooks used to use it to justify including Wilshere in his BBC team of the week column, and most people would mock him for doing so. I'm not sure about it personally. It's never going to be an exact science and there will be examples where it's the second, third, fourth or fifth pass before the goal which is the most impressive and won't be included in the stats. But taken in the round over a succession of games, provided you have appropriate measures, any quirks should be ironed out. |
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Post by richierich333 on Oct 2, 2020 10:34:35 GMT
In Ice Hockey they have 1st assist and 2nd assist - this is to recognise the importance of the through pass that creates the opportunity. A player that flicks on a beautiful cross to another player for a tap in gets the assist and goal, while the one that created it all doesn’t get recognised. like you say, all for stats, but only when stats go beyond the surface. I didn't know that but that's a brilliant idea. So often you'll see a defence splitting ball from De Bruyne to put Sterling in behind who then squares the ball for an open goal tap in for Aguero. Sterling gets the assist & the really impressive piece of skill that created the goal isn't acknowledged or reflected in the stats. I'd bet money as well that if someone made a compilation of all of De Bruyne's '2nd assists' they'd be many wonderful passes in there. Someone needs to tell these stats companies to keep track of it De Bruyne is getting plenty of plaudits to be fair. It's not like Sterling and Aguero get all the praise leaving De Bruyne going unnoticed but I take your point anyway. |
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Post by alarch on Oct 2, 2020 11:00:13 GMT
I don't mean to downplay Jonny's contribution referring to his lack of goals and assists. As I said above, I love the guy and I agree that his ability to keep possession is invaluable. But if he's being played as an attacking midfielder, that's one attacking position in the line-up being taken by a player who won't score or assist. Which is why I'd like to see him played deeper in the Allen/Britton role, and then the more attacking role can be taken by someone with more of a goal threat so we get the best of both worlds. This is a point I've made for a long time. His skillset is better suited to playing centrally. He's certainly got the work ethic and willingness to tackle and get stuck in. Whether or not he has the necessary discipline and reading of the game is another matter - but until he's given deployed in that role on a consistent basis we'll never know. His contribution against Azerbaijan in particular came from dropping deep to pick up the ball and driving at the opposition. His dribbling ability and short-pass distribution is top-notch - so we should look to make the best of it. Perhaps he would be best deployed in a three, either a 4-3-3 or a 5-3-2, where the defensive responsibilities aren't as great as in the pair in front of the back four in a 4-2-3-1. |
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