Ian Rush

[quetzal]

Euro Champions Van Basten, Gullit, Rijkaard Holland, W Germany who who go on to win Italia 90 and Finland.

[Deleted]

Sept 7, 2015 16:04:07 GMT quetzal said:

Euro Champions Van Basten, Gullit, Rijkaard Holland, W Germany who who go on to win Italia 90 and Finland.

Christ how was the draw done in those days? I can't believe Holland and West Germany could be in the same group!

We really are owed a bit of luck from that alone, nightmare stuff.

[stu]

The EBC love to ridicule our failure and dilute any glory. I heard them going on about how Ashley Williams would guide us to the Euros despite being an 'Anglo'. It's standard practice of colonialists to make people know their place and not get above their station.

[quetzal]

Or how did two teams qualify from a group of 4? W Germany qualified on some dodgy best placed runner up or something

[mrpicton79]

Sept 7, 2015 16:16:21 GMT quetzal said:

Or how did two teams qualify from a group of 4? W Germany qualified on some dodgy best placed runner up or something

Looks like the top 2 from all but one of the groups went through back then en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA) but yeah horrible group, notable how much harder all the groups looked in those days mind.

[rossettred]

I heard Hartson's interview on the radio and he doesn't mention the qualifying format.

In the 2004 qualifying campaign the side he was in finished second in the group.

And In the current 2016 format you qualify finishing second.

And there's a good chance now, we will qualify in second place !

His argument didn't stack up for me.

[scoop76]

Sept 7, 2015 16:01:44 GMT @storm said:

Its typical Welsh hand wringing.

Now we are on the verge of success we have to use it as a platform for more apologising for being the plucky underdog that never made it.

Hartson and Bellers queueing up to tell all and sundry on 5 live that they weren't good enough when it mattered. Bellamy stating that he wasn't good enough as a player really depressed me because the circumstances were so much different back then. Not to mention the often overlooked matter of the crucial Serbia away game being postponed at a time when we had a fully fit squad and confidence was high.

Without diminishing what this squad have achieved, I reckon we would have qualified from this group with Hughes team provided Bosnia collapsed like they have done now. Plus 2nd place being automatic is a luxury Hughes team never had.

What was our 1990 group, out of interest?

Although Serbia-Montenegro who were second seeds collapsed - losing to Azerbaijan and then 3-0 to Finland. Italy were a bit all over the place too at times - losing in Cardiff with Inzaghi and Vierri unavailable, then also drawing with Azerbaijan. We had a chance to top the group too of course, but we drew with Finland in the penultimate game a few days after the difficult night in Milan.

Agree it was a shame that Hughes team didn't have the luxury of an automatic second place available to them.

[scoop76]

Sept 7, 2015 18:53:22 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Sept 7, 2015 16:16:21 GMT quetzal said:

Or how did two teams qualify from a group of 4? W Germany qualified on some dodgy best placed runner up or something

Looks like the top 2 from all but one of the groups went through back then en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA) but yeah horrible group, notable how much harder all the groups looked in those days mind.

The other groups look slightly harder in hindsight. Remember Iceland, Greece, Finland, Norway, Albania and Turkey were all considered "minnows" back then! And of course Ireland qualified for their first World Cup.
Our group was the hardest I'd say, although fair play to Romania for topping a group with that great Denmark team in it, and to Scotland for qualifying from a group with Yugoslavia and France.

[Deleted]

Sept 7, 2015 20:27:35 GMT scoop76 said:

Sept 7, 2015 16:01:44 GMT @storm said:

Its typical Welsh hand wringing.

Now we are on the verge of success we have to use it as a platform for more apologising for being the plucky underdog that never made it.

Hartson and Bellers queueing up to tell all and sundry on 5 live that they weren't good enough when it mattered. Bellamy stating that he wasn't good enough as a player really depressed me because the circumstances were so much different back then. Not to mention the often overlooked matter of the crucial Serbia away game being postponed at a time when we had a fully fit squad and confidence was high.

Without diminishing what this squad have achieved, I reckon we would have qualified from this group with Hughes team provided Bosnia collapsed like they have done now. Plus 2nd place being automatic is a luxury Hughes team never had.

What was our 1990 group, out of interest?

Although Serbia-Montenegro who were second seeds collapsed - losing to Azerbaijan and then 3-0 to Finland. Italy were a bit all over the place too at times - losing in Cardiff with Inzaghi and Vierri unavailable, then also drawing with Azerbaijan. We had a chance to top the group too of course, but we drew with Finland in the penultimate game a few days after the difficult night in Milan.

Agree it was a shame that Hughes team didn't have the luxury of an automatic second place available to them.

Hughes let himself down that night. I recall listening to updates from the Italy Serbia game and hearing that inexplicably, Serbia had equalised. This gave us 10 minutes to go for top spot, albeit with 10 men, against Finland. I don't know whether Hughes knew about this, which if he didn't was a failing, if he did there was no discernible change in our approach which was a failing.

It was typical Welsh football, settle for a draw and go in the play offs because we couldn't dream hard enough to imagine we could finish top. After all, its not like we could have been knocked out of them by a team like Russia....

In that sense, we definitely weren't good enough, but thats more a reflection of the manager's dour pragmatism than the ability of the players.

[scoop76]

Sept 7, 2015 20:43:27 GMT @storm said:

Sept 7, 2015 20:27:35 GMT scoop76 said:

Although Serbia-Montenegro who were second seeds collapsed - losing to Azerbaijan and then 3-0 to Finland. Italy were a bit all over the place too at times - losing in Cardiff with Inzaghi and Vierri unavailable, then also drawing with Azerbaijan. We had a chance to top the group too of course, but we drew with Finland in the penultimate game a few days after the difficult night in Milan.

Agree it was a shame that Hughes team didn't have the luxury of an automatic second place available to them.

Hughes let himself down that night. I recall listening to updates from the Italy Serbia game and hearing that inexplicably, Serbia had equalised. This gave us 10 minutes to go for top spot, albeit with 10 men, against Finland. I don't know whether Hughes knew about this, which if he didn't was a failing, if he did there was no discernible change in our approach which was a failing.

It was typical Welsh football, settle for a draw and go in the play offs because we couldn't dream hard enough to imagine we could finish top. After all, its not like we could have been knocked out of them by a team like Russia....

In that sense, we definitely weren't good enough, but thats more a reflection of the manager's dour pragmatism than the ability of the players.

I always remember the PA announcer (not Ali Yassine that night) announcing after that Finland game that Italy had drawn and adding - "And Wales have qualified for the play-offs!!" in a very excited voice when we'd just missed the chance to go back to the top of the group. Lots of people cheered, but I was gutted.

[Deleted]

Sept 7, 2015 20:51:18 GMT scoop76 said:

Sept 7, 2015 20:43:27 GMT @storm said:

Hughes let himself down that night. I recall listening to updates from the Italy Serbia game and hearing that inexplicably, Serbia had equalised. This gave us 10 minutes to go for top spot, albeit with 10 men, against Finland. I don't know whether Hughes knew about this, which if he didn't was a failing, if he did there was no discernible change in our approach which was a failing.

It was typical Welsh football, settle for a draw and go in the play offs because we couldn't dream hard enough to imagine we could finish top. After all, its not like we could have been knocked out of them by a team like Russia....

In that sense, we definitely weren't good enough, but thats more a reflection of the manager's dour pragmatism than the ability of the players.

I always remember the PA announcer (not Ali Yassine that night) announcing after that Finland game that Italy had drawn and adding - "And Wales have qualified for the play-offs!!" in a very excited voice when we'd just missed the chance to go back to the top of the group. Lots of people cheered, but I was gutted.

Ditto. Distinctly small time mentality, that was why we didn't deserve to qualify.

[richierich333]

Sept 7, 2015 21:30:26 GMT @storm said:

Sept 7, 2015 20:51:18 GMT scoop76 said:

I always remember the PA announcer (not Ali Yassine that night) announcing after that Finland game that Italy had drawn and adding - "And Wales have qualified for the play-offs!!" in a very excited voice when we'd just missed the chance to go back to the top of the group. Lots of people cheered, but I was gutted.

Ditto. Distinctly small time mentality, that was why we didn't deserve to qualify.

We didn't qualify cos were pi$$ poor from the first Serbia M game onwards and had no plan B.  Nothing to do with 'small time mentality' or not going for top spot.  I was there and I cheered with everyone else at hearing that we were in the playoffs. I won't be apologizing for that, nor should anyone else.

[llannerch]

I'm sorry but Hughes blew it. We all thought he was a hero at the time because he appeared to be in light of the absolute clusterfuck that had been the Gould era and the meagre pickings historically before that. Time has not been kind to his reign. He fucked up. Simple.

To be fair he was a novice coach and was learning in the job so perhaps it was inevitable but there were so many mistakes that they can't be a coincidence, or considered bad luck, or be down to circumstance. He should hold his hand up, and never has. In one respect it's quite big of Bellamy, Sav, Hartson et al to say it never happened 'because they weren't good enough'; but they are all in debt to Hughes so much (how much in signing-on fees do Sav and Bellamy owe him?) that they can't bring themselves to criticise him. So actually it's quite cowardly

[Deleted]

Sept 8, 2015 9:32:59 GMT richierich333 said:

Sept 7, 2015 21:30:26 GMT @storm said:

Ditto. Distinctly small time mentality, that was why we didn't deserve to qualify.

We didn't qualify cos were pi$$ poor from the first Serbia M game onwards and had no plan B.  Nothing to do with 'small time mentality' or not going for top spot.  I was there and I cheered with everyone else at hearing that we were in the playoffs. I won't be apologizing for that, nor should anyone else.

Each to their own, I can't cheer the uncertainty of play offs when first was there for the taking. You can end up with nothing for finishing second, as we did. Sneaking into the play offs in the last game is an achievement, throwing away first through sheer negligence is not.

[helipad138]

I remember being very disappointed with Hughes's attitude after the Italy defeat. He seemed to resign himself to finishing 2nd when he should have come out and said we are going to go all out to win our last two games so we can take advantage if Italy slip up.

[alarch]

We've sneaked into the play-offs with two games to spare this time. There's progress for you.

[Deleted]

Sept 8, 2015 16:21:35 GMT alarch said:

We've sneaked into the play-offs with two games to spare this time. There's progress for you.

I don't call this sneaking, we kicked the play off's front doors in and marched straight through the lobby headed for the lifts to first place.

I really hope we aim big now and go for first place. I suspect that means winning in Bosnia which I can't see us doing.

[squatter1]

Sept 7, 2015 20:43:27 GMT @storm said:

Sept 7, 2015 20:27:35 GMT scoop76 said:

Although Serbia-Montenegro who were second seeds collapsed - losing to Azerbaijan and then 3-0 to Finland. Italy were a bit all over the place too at times - losing in Cardiff with Inzaghi and Vierri unavailable, then also drawing with Azerbaijan. We had a chance to top the group too of course, but we drew with Finland in the penultimate game a few days after the difficult night in Milan.

Agree it was a shame that Hughes team didn't have the luxury of an automatic second place available to them.

Hughes let himself down that night. I recall listening to updates from the Italy Serbia game and hearing that inexplicably, Serbia had equalised. This gave us 10 minutes to go for top spot, albeit with 10 men, against Finland. I don't know whether Hughes knew about this, which if he didn't was a failing, if he did there was no discernible change in our approach which was a failing.

It was typical Welsh football, settle for a draw and go in the play offs because we couldn't dream hard enough to imagine we could finish top. After all, its not like we could have been knocked out of them by a team like Russia....

In that sense, we definitely weren't good enough, but thats more a reflection of the manager's dour pragmatism than the ability of the players.

Jesus Storm, where do you get this stuff from!!:
"It was typical Welsh football, settle for a draw and go in the play offs because we couldn't dream hard enough to imagine we could finish top."

When you say: "we definitely weren't good enough, but that's more a reflection of the manager's dour pragmatism than the ability of the players."

Don't you think this had a little to do with it: "This gave us 10 minutes to go for top spot, albeit with 10 men"

Hughes gets unfair treatment on here. He took over after perhaps the most embarrassing period in Welsh football and turned it round immediately in his first job in management. We should be thankful more than we are critical. I'm sure he did make mistakes, but he shouldn't be remembered as the guy who blew a golden opportunity, rather the guy that created a golden opportunity.

To finish above Serbia and Finland, and to lose out by a single goal over two legs to Russia after the debacle of the preceding years was a fantastic achievement.

[mrpicton79]

Sept 8, 2015 9:32:59 GMT richierich333 said:

Sept 7, 2015 21:30:26 GMT @storm said:

Ditto. Distinctly small time mentality, that was why we didn't deserve to qualify.

We didn't qualify cos were pi$$ poor from the first Serbia M game onwards and had no plan B. Nothing to do with 'small time mentality' or not going for top spot. I was there and I cheered with everyone else at hearing that we were in the playoffs. I won't be apologizing for that, nor should anyone else.

We qualified for the play offs by virtue of the way we started the campaign, not because of any 'achievements' that night against Finland, we had a glorious second chance at automatic qualification and blew it, simple as that. Anyone celebrating that night was celebrating failure.. "yay we aren't gonna qualify again! effing brilliant!!"

[scoop76]

Sept 8, 2015 17:56:37 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Sept 8, 2015 9:32:59 GMT richierich333 said:

We didn't qualify cos were pi$$ poor from the first Serbia M game onwards and had no plan B. Nothing to do with 'small time mentality' or not going for top spot. I was there and I cheered with everyone else at hearing that we were in the playoffs. I won't be apologizing for that, nor should anyone else.

We qualified for the play offs by virtue of the way we started the campaign, not because of any 'achievements' that night against Finland, we had a glorious second chance at automatic qualification and blew it, simple as that. Anyone celebrating that night was celebrating failure.. "yay we aren't gonna qualify again! effing brilliant!!"

I remember being absolutely gutted that night after the Finland game, far more upset than I was after Milan. Sat in the pub and didn't want to talk to anyone. Finishing second in a group with Italy was still a considerable achievement, but missing the chance that night to go back to the top of the group was gutting. We could have played Serbia-Montenegro at home knowing a win would have put us into the finals. Instead we knew that even a win in the final match would almost mean the play-offs.

Having said that the campaign was still incredible, given how awful 1994 to 2001 had been. Hughes made us hard to beat and at least restored some of the belief that had been totally lost in the 1990s.

[saints19]

Let's be honest, Hughes took us to second place in a qualifying group, and beat a world class team in a competitive game. If he'd been playing under today's rules we'd have made it comfortably. Even though we had our best squad of players for some time, it was still an achievement to finish ahead of two decent sides.

Just look at this squad of players and even though we have world class talent, it's still taken us basically 3 campaigns with essentially the same group to (almost certainly) get the job done. This group has been around for three campaigns, the Euro 2012 one in which we lost our first four games and eventually finished 4th after winning 3 out of our last 4, then the defensively diabolical last campaign in which we finished fifth after being bottom seeds.

Put in that light Hughes's achievement was almost as worthy as this group's, it's just that the rules have changed now so we will qualify if we finish second, as seems likely.

[richierich333]

Sept 8, 2015 17:56:37 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Sept 8, 2015 9:32:59 GMT richierich333 said:

We didn't qualify cos were pi$$ poor from the first Serbia M game onwards and had no plan B. Nothing to do with 'small time mentality' or not going for top spot. I was there and I cheered with everyone else at hearing that we were in the playoffs. I won't be apologizing for that, nor should anyone else.

We qualified for the play offs by virtue of the way we started the campaign, not because of any 'achievements' that night against Finland, we had a glorious second chance at automatic qualification and blew it, simple as that. Anyone celebrating that night was celebrating failure.. "yay we aren't gonna qualify again! effing brilliant!!"

This makes no sense at all.  If we were already out before kicking a ball in the playoffs (which you did not know at that point by the way), why did we bother watching the playoffs, why did UEFA bother to do the draw and why did the players bother turning up?  We had a 0-0 draw away at Russia and still had every chance of qualifying ...what on earth are you talking about?

[mrpicton79]

Sept 9, 2015 15:20:02 GMT richierich333 said:

Sept 8, 2015 17:56:37 GMT mrpicton79 said:

We qualified for the play offs by virtue of the way we started the campaign, not because of any 'achievements' that night against Finland, we had a glorious second chance at automatic qualification and blew it, simple as that. Anyone celebrating that night was celebrating failure.. "yay we aren't gonna qualify again! effing brilliant!!"

This makes no sense at all. If we were already out before kicking a ball in the playoffs (which you did not know at that point by the way), why did we bother watching the playoffs, why did UEFA bother to do the draw and why did the players bother turning up? We had a 0-0 draw away at Russia and still had every chance of qualifying ...what on earth are you talking about?

Come on we're Wales, we were never going to get Latvia in the play offs, that's not how it works and you know it.

[Deleted]

Sept 10, 2015 17:00:44 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Sept 9, 2015 15:20:02 GMT richierich333 said:

This makes no sense at all. If we were already out before kicking a ball in the playoffs (which you did not know at that point by the way), why did we bother watching the playoffs, why did UEFA bother to do the draw and why did the players bother turning up? We had a 0-0 draw away at Russia and still had every chance of qualifying ...what on earth are you talking about?

Come on we're Wales, we were never going to get Latvia in the play offs, that's not how it works and you know it.

Yes, its funny how in the TOTALLY UNSEEDED draw for that play off, that the unseeded teams were still successfully paired up with the teams that would have been seeded had seeding been used. Warm balls all over the place.

[mrpicton79]

Sept 10, 2015 17:38:06 GMT @storm said:

Sept 10, 2015 17:00:44 GMT mrpicton79 said:

Come on we're Wales, we were never going to get Latvia in the play offs, that's not how it works and you know it.

Yes, its funny how in the TOTALLY UNSEEDED draw for that play off, that the unseeded teams were still successfully paired up with the teams that would have been seeded had seeding been used. Warm balls all over the place.

Yeah I'd like to know what the odds would have been on all 5 of the stronger teams each drawing one of the 5 weaker teams in an unseeded draw, pretty long I'd imagine.

[alarch]

I'd love to see a video of that draw - because my recollection of it is that it was the dodgiest draw I've ever seen. If my dodgy memory serves me correctly the balls were taken out of the bowl by an UEFA official, and at no stage were the balls agitated. It would be very easy to disprove this. Anybody in the media with access to the footage?

[flynnfan]

This is a good thread. In 1992, only 7 teams qualified to join the hosts in the Euros. Just the group winners. And we were in a group with the re-unified Germany. So despite finishing 2nd, ahead of Belgium, we didn't even get a play off...

[quetzal]

The record is now with Bale but Rushie carried the record for what must be over 20 years. The Germany goal was the most memorable. But what goal was the most aesthetically pleasing to the eye? Its a hard one because Rushie was more of a deadly poacher. Can´t remember to many outside of the box.

[zakbaby]

Maybe Scotland away in 85? Great finish from him.

[joseywales37]

Id say Germany goal because of the first touch was amazing and the finish also top notch