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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 6, 2019 9:30:05 GMT
My take is that Joe was a very underrated player when he was playing in the Prem, and probably deserved to go to a better club than Stoke. It looked like Stoke was a pretty safe bet at the time as they were establish in the Prem and started to spend money on players like Shaqiri. Unfortunately for Joe it backfired.
Joe is still one of our top performers, however, I say this with the caveat that he isn't playing quite as well as he did in the 2016 qualifiers and tournament. I remember watching him against Belgium at the CCS and thinking he looked top class. Since dropping down to the Championship I feel he has lost a bit of top level edge to his game. With this in mind he's still one of our best and most important players. Unfortunately, the only way I can see him getting back up to the Prem is if Swansea get promoted and end up signing him. Fingers crossed this does happen.
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Post by cadno on Nov 6, 2019 10:26:50 GMT
Can hardly blame him for that. Clearly hoping a top 6 or other Premier League side would come in for him. The difference a Joe Allen could make to Arsenal, or Man U... Really? Why didnt they sign him then. Think your opinion is a little one eyed. Also a lit of clubs between Arsenal and Stoke in the table with little or no interest. Joe does a great job for us but is not as good as you think I think would prefer Joe Allen to Fred, Matic, Guenduzi, and maybe Xhaka...
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Joe Allen
Nov 6, 2019 11:48:32 GMT
via mobile
Post by welshiron on Nov 6, 2019 11:48:32 GMT
But no top managers or their counterparts have. You must no more than then.
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Post by fiveattheback on Nov 6, 2019 11:54:00 GMT
Really? Why didnt they sign him then. Think your opinion is a little one eyed. Also a lit of clubs between Arsenal and Stoke in the table with little or no interest. Joe does a great job for us but is not as good as you think I think would prefer Joe Allen to Fred, Matic, Guenduzi, and maybe Xhaka... I'm all for bigging our players up, but this is ridiculous. If Allen was as good as those players he wouldn't be propping up the Championship at Stoke
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Post by underwood on Nov 6, 2019 12:36:19 GMT
Joe gave the ball away in Vienna for Austria to equalise (having scored a blinder in the first half). That’s the summary of his misdemeanours for Wales.
He never lets us down & is pivotal to the way we play. I couldn’t care less what he’s doing in his club career as long as he continues to be our most consistent performer.
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Post by iot on Nov 6, 2019 13:14:51 GMT
Joe gave the ball away in Vienna for Austria to equalise (having scored a blinder in the first half). That’s the summary of his misdemeanours for Wales. He never lets us down & is pivotal to the way we play. I couldn’t care less what he’s doing in his club career as long as he continues to be our most consistent performer. He also gave the ball away for the belgium goal at the euros. He was also out of position for the two goals we conceded against slovakia and croatia. He also lost the ball numerous times in those two games. He was also very ineffective against azerbaijan at home. I love joe allen, but take the blinkers off. He's streets ahead of all our other deep lying midfield options, but his performance levels haven't been as high these past couple of years.
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Post by CrackityJones on Nov 6, 2019 13:18:59 GMT
One thing's for sure is that whatever problems Wales have right now they don't lie with Joe Allen.
Right now, Wales’ biggest problem lies with Joe Allen being suspended due to another avoidable booking.
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Post by johnoster on Nov 6, 2019 13:54:31 GMT
Joe gave the ball away in Vienna for Austria to equalise (having scored a blinder in the first half). That’s the summary of his misdemeanours for Wales. He never lets us down & is pivotal to the way we play. I couldn’t care less what he’s doing in his club career as long as he continues to be our most consistent performer. He also gave the ball away for the belgium goal at the euros. He was also out of position for the two goals we conceded against slovakia and croatia. He also lost the ball numerous times in those two games. He was also very ineffective against azerbaijan at home. I love joe allen, but take the blinkers off. He's streets ahead of all our other deep lying midfield options, but his performance levels haven't been as high these past couple of years.
He was tracking his man (Hamsik) to the back post for the Slovakia goal, let's get the facts straight.
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Post by cadno on Nov 6, 2019 14:06:56 GMT
But no top managers or their counterparts have. You must no more than then. Ridiculous argument
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Post by alarch on Nov 6, 2019 17:35:35 GMT
Joe gave the ball away in Vienna for Austria to equalise (having scored a blinder in the first half). That’s the summary of his misdemeanours for Wales. He never lets us down & is pivotal to the way we play. I couldn’t care less what he’s doing in his club career as long as he continues to be our most consistent performer. He also gave the ball away for the belgium goal at the euros. He was also out of position for the two goals we conceded against slovakia and croatia. He also lost the ball numerous times in those two games. He was also very ineffective against azerbaijan at home. I love joe allen, but take the blinkers off. He's streets ahead of all our other deep lying midfield options, but his performance levels haven't been as high these past couple of years. You're well wide of the mark. If anyone was to blame for the Belgium goal it was Ramsey for dropping back into the defensive line, giving Naingolan loads of space to shoot: www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2yV8qo6PSMAs johnoster pointed out Allen was giving a man-marking job on Hamsik - which he executed well - and was tracking him at the back post for the Slovakian goal. Ampadu was to blame for dropping back to form a defensive line of seven with no defensive mid at the edge of the box. For the Croatian goal Allen was ineffectual, but again Ampadu was in a better position to track the players at the edge of the box - but showed a lack of awareness and was attracted to the ball. I watched both games twice and he didn't lose the ball "numerous" times. Against Azerbaijan at home he didn't have his best game, but that was in the context of a tactical plan that was very poor as we know, and it took Joniesta's dribbling ability to break the low block. Against Belarus Allen was terrific, and showed all the naysayers that he is still very much capable of dynamic, controlling performances. He may not quite be at the level he was at in Euro2016, but I don't see any evidence of any reduction in his capability. That's the key question, has he lost his mojo? I don't see that at all. Form is temporary, class is permanent.
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Post by alarch on Nov 6, 2019 18:07:39 GMT
Allen was also excellent against Slovakia - and that illustrated perfectly how Allen plays his best football when he plays alongside an effective partner who also cherishes the ball. Ledley did this job very well for us for the Euro2016 campaign, Ampadu did that job when we beat ROI 4-1, and Smith did that job against Slovakia. Allen shines as the most important cog amongst many in a well-oiled machine.
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Post by iot on Nov 6, 2019 19:33:19 GMT
He also gave the ball away for the belgium goal at the euros. He was also out of position for the two goals we conceded against slovakia and croatia. He also lost the ball numerous times in those two games. He was also very ineffective against azerbaijan at home. I love joe allen, but take the blinkers off. He's streets ahead of all our other deep lying midfield options, but his performance levels haven't been as high these past couple of years. You're well wide of the mark. If anyone was to blame for the Belgium goal it was Ramsey for dropping back into the defensive line, giving Naingolan loads of space to shoot: www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2yV8qo6PSMAs johnoster pointed out Allen was giving a man-marking job on Hamsik - which he executed well - and was tracking him at the back post for the Slovakian goal. Ampadu was to blame for dropping back to form a defensive line of seven with no defensive mid at the edge of the box. For the Croatian goal Allen was ineffectual, but again Ampadu was in a better position to track the players at the edge of the box - but showed a lack of awareness and was attracted to the ball. I watched both games twice and he didn't lose the ball "numerous" times. Against Azerbaijan at home he didn't have his best game, but that was in the context of a tactical plan that was very poor as we know, and it took Joniesta's dribbling ability to break the low block. Against Belarus Allen was terrific, and showed all the naysayers that he is still very much capable of dynamic, controlling performances. He may not quite be at the level he was at in Euro2016, but I don't see any evidence of any reduction in his capability. That's the key question, has he lost his mojo? I don't see that at all. Form is temporary, class is permanent. Well, against belgium i distinctly remember allen trying to play a crossfield ball and getting it horribly wrong (it didn't even lift off the ground), resulting in a belgium counter which led to the goal. Yes, others were at fault, ramsey for naively dropping back as much as he did, and perhaps even henessey for his poor footwork. I only intended to pick out some examples where allen has been less than flawless, which is what the poster was implying. I think his performance levels have dropped considerably overall over the past year or two and tried to pick out some the biggest / most critical examples of that.
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Post by alarch on Nov 6, 2019 21:35:34 GMT
What I would agree with is that there have a few games where Allen hasn't shined as brightly and consistently as he did during the Euro 2016 campaign. But there have also been games where he's excelled, at his best, or close to his best level. The common denominator in those games have been that he's been assisted with excellent performances from his other defensive mids. Think Ampadu vs ROI at home, Smith vs Slovakia, Morrell vs Belarus. Equally, in games where Allen has been less prominent, as in the recent double header, Ampadu had poor games.
Going back to the Euro2016, Ledley's consistent performances, and safe distribution allowed Allen more opportunity to express his creative abilities, perfectly illustrated by his assist for Ramsey's goal vs Russia. Unlike maverick Bale, and to a lesser extent Ramsey, Allen impresses the most in a team that is functioning well. Hopefully Ampadu will be closer to being up to speed by the Hungary game - in which case we may see the best of both.
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Joe Allen
Nov 7, 2019 10:52:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by welshiron on Nov 7, 2019 10:52:26 GMT
What I would agree with is that there have a few games where Allen hasn't shined as brightly and consistently as he did during the Euro 2016 campaign. But there have also been games where he's excelled, at his best, or close to his best level. The common denominator in those games have been that he's been assisted with excellent performances from his other defensive mids. Think Ampadu vs ROI at home, Smith vs Slovakia, Morrell vs Belarus. Equally, in games where Allen has been less prominent, as in the recent double header, Ampadu had poor games. Going back to the Euro2016, Ledley's consistent performances, and safe distribution allowed Allen more opportunity to express his creative abilities, perfectly illustrated by his assist for Ramsey's goal vs Russia. Unlike maverick Bale, and to a lesser extent Ramsey, Allen impresses the most in a team that is functioning well. Hopefully Ampadu will be closer to being up to speed by the Hungary game - in which case we may see the best of both. So he needs other players to make him look good?.. shouldn't it be the other way around with him as the senior player
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Joe Allen
Nov 7, 2019 11:00:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by welshiron on Nov 7, 2019 11:00:10 GMT
What I would agree with is that there have a few games where Allen hasn't shined as brightly and consistently as he did during the Euro 2016 campaign. But there have also been games where he's excelled, at his best, or close to his best level. The common denominator in those games have been that he's been assisted with excellent performances from his other defensive mids. Think Ampadu vs ROI at home, Smith vs Slovakia, Morrell vs Belarus. Equally, in games where Allen has been less prominent, as in the recent double header, Ampadu had poor games. Going back to the Euro2016, Ledley's consistent performances, and safe distribution allowed Allen more opportunity to express his creative abilities, perfectly illustrated by his assist for Ramsey's goal vs Russia. Unlike maverick Bale, and to a lesser extent Ramsey, Allen impresses the most in a team that is functioning well. Hopefully Ampadu will be closer to being up to speed by the Hungary game - in which case we may see the best of both. So he needs other players to make him look good?.. shouldn't it be the other way around with him as the senior player Joe also only played in 5 of the euro 2016 qualifiers and picked up 3 bookings. We were unbeaten in the 5 games he missed picking up 11 points.
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Post by 1gwaunview on Nov 7, 2019 11:54:43 GMT
So he needs other players to make him look good?.. shouldn't it be the other way around with him as the senior player Joe also only played in 5 of the euro 2016 qualifiers and picked up 3 bookings. We were unbeaten in the 5 games he missed picking up 11 points. That squad was cohesive and better organised than the current, even if comparisons of the individual players involved then and now don't confirm that.
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Post by alarch on Nov 7, 2019 21:44:18 GMT
So he needs other players to make him look good?.. shouldn't it be the other way around with him as the senior player Joe also only played in 5 of the euro 2016 qualifiers and picked up 3 bookings. We were unbeaten in the 5 games he missed picking up 11 points. Lies, damn lies and statistics. Allen was absent in both games against Cyprus - and we struggled to win both, he was also absent in the dismal draw at home to Israel and the 2-0 victory at home over Andorra - that's 10 of the 11 points - the other coming in a somewhat fortunate 0-0 draw at home to Bosnia. He also played a major part in getting the key results against Belgium home and away, and away to Israel. He was also named in the team of the tournament - forgotten that already? And he was our most consistent performer in the World Cup qualifying campaign. So much so, that ROI targeted him, and when he left the pitch so did our chances of qualifying for the play-offs. Apart from that then yes, he's been totally rubbish for us...
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Post by alarch on Nov 7, 2019 21:49:52 GMT
What I would agree with is that there have a few games where Allen hasn't shined as brightly and consistently as he did during the Euro 2016 campaign. But there have also been games where he's excelled, at his best, or close to his best level. The common denominator in those games have been that he's been assisted with excellent performances from his other defensive mids. Think Ampadu vs ROI at home, Smith vs Slovakia, Morrell vs Belarus. Equally, in games where Allen has been less prominent, as in the recent double header, Ampadu had poor games. Going back to the Euro2016, Ledley's consistent performances, and safe distribution allowed Allen more opportunity to express his creative abilities, perfectly illustrated by his assist for Ramsey's goal vs Russia. Unlike maverick Bale, and to a lesser extent Ramsey, Allen impresses the most in a team that is functioning well. Hopefully Ampadu will be closer to being up to speed by the Hungary game - in which case we may see the best of both. So he needs other players to make him look good?.. shouldn't it be the other way around with him as the senior player You clearly don't understand the possession game. Xavi, Iniesta and Messi - the holy trinity - were all fantastic players in their own right - but the synergy they generated together took Barcelona, and football, to another level. Although Barcelona are still a very good side they've been nowhere near the same level since age caught up with Xavi. Teams playing a possession game excel because they are better than the sum of their parts. To get the best out of the likes of Britton for Swansea, or Allen for Wales, you need a critical mass of quality players who can look after the ball, to create the close-passing triangles which are the bedrock of the passing game. If only we could clone Joe Allen we'd be sorted...
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Post by cadno on Nov 8, 2019 0:31:53 GMT
Matt Smith, Morrell and Sheehan have shades of Joe Allen in them! I haven't seen Burton or Levitt play as much but they're also tidy footballers by the sounds of it. Welsh football is in a good place I think...
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Post by alarch on Nov 8, 2019 9:34:04 GMT
Matt Smith, Morrell and Sheehan have shades of Joe Allen in them! I haven't seen Burton or Levitt play as much but they're also tidy footballers by the sounds of it. Welsh football is in a good place I think... When you look at Ledley his track-record prior to the Euro 2016 campaign didn't suggest he could play the role of a highly disciplined defensive mid whose role was to win the ball back and distribute the ball conservatively. He performed that role very well, so if he can do it then so it's quite possible that the likes of Smith, Morrell and Sheehan can do so too. We don't need world beaters, just players with an excellent work-rate, an ability to read the game well and to look after the ball.
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Post by welshiron on Nov 8, 2019 9:37:57 GMT
But no top managers or their counterparts have. You must no more than then. Ridiculous argument Why?
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Post by welshiron on Nov 8, 2019 9:40:18 GMT
So he needs other players to make him look good?.. shouldn't it be the other way around with him as the senior player You clearly don't understand the possession game. Xavi, Iniesta and Messi - the holy trinity - were all fantastic players in their own right - but the synergy they generated together took Barcelona, and football, to another level. Although Barcelona are still a very good side they've been nowhere near the same level since age caught up with Xavi. Teams playing a possession game excel because they are better than the sum of their parts. To get the best out of the likes of Britton for Swansea, or Allen for Wales, you need a critical mass of quality players who can look after the ball, to create the close-passing triangles which are the bedrock of the passing game. If only we could clone Joe Allen we'd be sorted... How many clones to you want? Need a couple of players who score goals.
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Post by welshiron on Nov 8, 2019 9:45:25 GMT
Joe also only played in 5 of the euro 2016 qualifiers and picked up 3 bookings. We were unbeaten in the 5 games he missed picking up 11 points. Lies, damn lies and statistics. Allen was absent in both games against Cyprus - and we struggled to win both, he was also absent in the dismal draw at home to Israel and the 2-0 victory at home over Andorra - that's 10 of the 11 points - the other coming in a somewhat fortunate 0-0 draw at home to Bosnia. He also played a major part in getting the key results against Belgium home and away, and away to Israel. He was also named in the team of the tournament - forgotten that already? And he was our most consistent performer in the World Cup qualifying campaign. So much so, that ROI targeted him, and when he left the pitch so did our chances of qualifying for the play-offs. Apart from that then yes, he's been totally rubbish for us... I didn't say anything about France he was excellent you brought up the qualifiers and I pointed out he only played half the games including Andorra away where we were lucky and Bosnia where we got beat. That's leaves 3 good games out of 10. Think you need to read my previous posts which show I rate him. However, unlike you I can see he isnt as good as Xavi etc. He is playing for a team bottom of the championship FACT. He has been dropped by that team FACT A big problem is we miss Ledley a player slagged off by many on here.
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Post by welshiron on Nov 8, 2019 9:46:34 GMT
Matt Smith, Morrell and Sheehan have shades of Joe Allen in them! I haven't seen Burton or Levitt play as much but they're also tidy footballers by the sounds of it. Welsh football is in a good place I think... None of those players have really played above league one level yet.
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Post by alarch on Nov 8, 2019 9:48:15 GMT
Ledley isn't playing for any team, not even a Conference one FACT. Happy now?
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Post by cadno on Nov 8, 2019 9:49:32 GMT
Matt Smith, Morrell and Sheehan have shades of Joe Allen in them! I haven't seen Burton or Levitt play as much but they're also tidy footballers by the sounds of it. Welsh football is in a good place I think... None of those players have really played above league one level yet. Smith and Morrell have done alright in important internationals though, Sheehan hasn't proved himself at that level, but they're all young, I think they will all be at least decent Championship players.
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Post by welshiron on Nov 8, 2019 9:50:17 GMT
That's why we miss him.
I wasnt advocating a call up.
Ledley was vital to that team and if you cant see that you no nothing about football, unless it's a possession game apparently.
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Post by welshiron on Nov 8, 2019 9:51:19 GMT
None of those players have really played above league one level yet. Smith and Morrell have done alright in important internationals though, Sheehan hasn't proved himself at that level, but they're all young, I think they will all be at least decent Championship players. They have done ok but so did Vaulks. It is too big a step up in my opinion to do regularly.
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Post by allezlesrouges on Nov 8, 2019 9:53:57 GMT
Smith and Morrell have done alright in important internationals though, Sheehan hasn't proved himself at that level, but they're all young, I think they will all be at least decent Championship players. They have done ok but so did Vaulks. It is too big a step up in my opinion to do regularly. I don't really understand what you are proposing as an alternative to Smith/Morrell etc?
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Post by cadno on Nov 8, 2019 9:54:39 GMT
Because I could pretty much use that to argue anything, 'so and so is higher up and disagrees so you must be wrong', obviosuly managers are better qualified but it doesn't mean fans can't question wt they do. And anyway, Joe Allen isn't the first player to be unlucky not to make it at a top club, and he won't be the last, sometimes big clubs miss out, sometimes they don't.
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