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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2011 23:27:53 GMT
Declined to write an essay for us this time, did you? FFS Saints dont tempt him! Is there going to be lots of abuse hurled at Tosh then? Its a strange one really, an absolute legend as a player.....but is it fair to say he did his best as manager? He doesnt seem as pro-active as he should have been, very poor presence at matches and at the time we put up with his defensive attitude and wing backs because we didnt know any better- although Speed has the benefit of a decent group, is it fair to say that if managed better and allowed to play without fear we could have got better results? |
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Post by saints19 on Oct 12, 2011 0:09:29 GMT
I hope Toshack doesn't recieve any boos. OK, he didn't ulimately deliver results but plenty a Welsh manager has achieved less than him statistically. Only Hughes in this era has a better record. And he gave it his all, his all just happened not to be good enough.
Hopefully fans will realise that. I'm sure most will politely applaud him.
As to whether he could have got better results had he played without fear, without question we needed to go for it more often, but we also lacked a bit of luck at crucial times in games. Most of our competitive games under Toshack were close games. It's only really the Finland games in the 2010 campaign where I turned the TV off seriously disappointed with our efforts.
Comparing Speed and Toshack is impossible because Speed has a better group than Toshack did for the majority of his reign. He has much better squad, not only in having the benefit of more players but also in having the lads closer to their peak ages. Bale at 17 to 19 was quite raw, whereas now he's looking the real deal.
Also as far as Toshack's tactics are concerned it's worth noting that our style under Speed (4-5-1 with Bale/Bellamy as wingers) was played by Toshack with the same players in the opening game of the campaign v Montenegro. I seem to recall us attacking Montenegro in that game too. Perhaps it was not a case of Toshack per se being obsessed with defensive football, perhaps he just felt that was the best chance we had with a limited group of players.
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Post by jonathandearth on Oct 12, 2011 7:11:26 GMT
Yes,Toshack does not deserve any abuse.
He did his best with what he had as a manager. He took over when players were shamefully retiring from Wales - including Gary Speed. And unlike Speed he never had 15 Premiership players to choose from.
He choose the wrong 5 years to be manager.
And a geat player for Wales - my first football hero.
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Post by blogdroed on Oct 12, 2011 10:18:05 GMT
I hope Toshack doesn't recieve any boos. OK, he didn't ulimately deliver results but plenty a Welsh manager has achieved less than him statistically. Only Hughes in this era has a better record. Actually, statistically speaking Tosh's record is better than Hughes' record |
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Post by njdragon on Oct 12, 2011 10:49:23 GMT
I hope Toshack doesn't recieve any boos. OK, he didn't ulimately deliver results but plenty a Welsh manager has achieved less than him statistically. Only Hughes in this era has a better record. Actually, statistically speaking Tosh's record is better than Hughes' record I cant imagine it is when you just take qualifiers into account... |
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Post by blogdroed on Oct 12, 2011 11:41:14 GMT
Perhaps not, but that's not what was claimed.
Also let's not forget that Hughes' record was actually quite rubbish - even in the 2004 campaign we only won four of our eight games
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Post by blogdroed on Oct 12, 2011 11:44:18 GMT
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Post by stu on Oct 12, 2011 11:45:54 GMT
If you look at it realistically if we didn't have Toshack in charge then we wouldn't have the first XI we have now. My only real gripe is that Toshack would have been better in a more directorial role. In other words in charge of getting the set up in place but not actually dealing with the players or the coaching.
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Post by njdragon on Oct 12, 2011 12:07:43 GMT
tosh's qualifcation wins - northern ireland, azerbajan, lichtenstein, slovakia, cyrpus, san marino
Speed - montenegro, switzerland, bulgaria
Hughes - Italy, finland, azebaijan, Belarus
Any others?
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Post by njdragon on Oct 12, 2011 12:13:25 GMT
juts another point to add
tosh's losses altogether were 24 while hughes was 14
8 draws v 15 for hughes - so the win percentage does give the full story as we were picking up points still.
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Post by ontheroadagain on Oct 12, 2011 12:14:41 GMT
San Marino away was dire.
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Post by blogdroed on Oct 12, 2011 12:24:29 GMT
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Post by blogdroed on Oct 12, 2011 12:27:07 GMT
Cutting out friendly results their records in qualifiers were:
Tosh: P29 W10 D3 L16
Hughes: P26 W6 D10 L10
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Post by stu on Oct 12, 2011 13:00:53 GMT
Out of curiosity can someone make a list of how many players Toshack gave a first cap to and how many Hughes gave a first cap to?
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Post by njdragon on Oct 12, 2011 13:06:32 GMT
tosh 33pts out of 29 qualifiers
hughes 28pts out of 26 qualifiers
Pretty close
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Post by Baxter Cymru on Oct 12, 2011 13:18:52 GMT
You could argue the results speed has picked up monte, the swiss and last night are more impressive than san marino, cyprus ect ect that tosh achieved
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Post by saints19 on Oct 12, 2011 14:08:34 GMT
I would agree with that Baxter but Speed undoubtedly has a better squad to work with than Toshack did. Can't compare an all-Premiership XI with teams containing Carl x2 and a 17-year-old Lewin Nyatanga.
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Post by njdragon on Oct 12, 2011 14:25:45 GMT
tosh had giggs, bellamy, savage, davies, koumas, delaney, gabbidon, ricketts, hartson, james collins, danny collins, earnie, P jones - all at his disposal when he first came into the job. All experienced internationals.
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Post by saints19 on Oct 12, 2011 14:50:34 GMT
That is an incredibly misleading post.
Savage retired immediately, having been left out of one squad, which everyone here just about agrees was petulant to say the least. Ricketts was not then an experienced international, if he had even made his debut at that point (it was in 2005, Toshack may actually have been the man to give it to him) nor was Danny Collins. Even James Collins had perhaps 12-15 caps so was hardly experienced even compared to today's squad which averages more than that despite having a young average age. Paul Jones was way past his best and soon went into coaching, Delaney hardly ever played for Tosh and soon retired due to injury.
Only Hartson, Bellamy, Giggs, Earnshaw, Davies, Koumas and Gabbidon stayed on to form anything like a nucleus of experienced players. Of those, Giggs was to retire in 2007 (Czech Rep home game), Hartson had a year earlier in 2006 (one year into Toshack's six year reign), Koumas was notoriously inconsistent in turning up and trying hard, and Gabbidon suffered long-term injury problems. So really, out of your original 13-man claim, only Davies, Bellamy, and Earnshaw actually were consistently available to Toshack.
I suppose you'll blame Toshack for the retirements. I'm not sure he was personally responsible for any retirements except Savage (70-30 Savage's fault) D Collins (50-50) and Parry (mostly Parry). So basically, you can't compare Toshack's hand with Speed's hand.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2011 17:27:56 GMT
Parry (mostly Parry). So basically, you can't compare Toshack's hand with Speed's hand. Yeah, Parry had a tantrum when he was left in the replacements for Russia away three years back. Played better without that him match either way, no big loss to be honest! |
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Post by georgetm1 on Oct 12, 2011 17:41:27 GMT
I was watching some old Welsh footy vids I recorded a while back and whilst watching the after match interviews the mood of the players and management were monotone and depressing even when they won. The style of play was also too defensive, negative and Tosh never played the team to its strengths. If he manages Macedonia the same way he did with us I can't see him lasting long. Thanks to him though our young team has a lot of international experience, but thank christ he is out.
If any one in the future starts thinking of complaining about Wales winning badly or getting a draw, just remember those 5-6 years of pure crap we had to endure and how the FAW did fuck all to rectify it.
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Post by blogdroed on Oct 12, 2011 18:10:30 GMT
I wouldn't agree with that to be honest - definitley much more Tosh than Collins |
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Post by gabbidonsphysio on Oct 22, 2011 23:52:37 GMT
Did anyone see him on the Wolves v Swans coverage earlier? He actually criticised Brendan Rodgers for bringing on a third centre back towards the end of the game, saying that "I wasn't keen on that. It gives the wrong impression, that you're content to hang on to what you've got".
3 words immediately sprang to mind:
STEVE, EVANS, MOSCOW.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2011 0:02:27 GMT
Did anyone see him on the Wolves v Swans coverage earlier? He actually criticised Brendan Rodgers for bringing on a third centre back towards the end of the game, saying that "I wasn't keen on that. It gives the wrong impression, that you're content to hang on to what you've got". 3 words immediately sprang to mind: STEVE, EVANS, MOSCOW. LOL! Yep, that's what went through my mind an all. Mind you, despite his hyprocrisy, he was spot on, the replacements of Gower and indeed Dyer and Britton was costly, very costly but never mind! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2011 0:11:28 GMT
Thats Toshack all over though, full of talk just like he was when Hughes was in charge. One of the biggest hypocrites going.
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Post by flynnfan on Oct 23, 2011 10:03:08 GMT
That's up there with Giggs' 'Wales need more experience' comment! I just wish whoever he was on with had been knowledgable enough about Welsh football to bring up the Steve Evans in Moscow debacle.
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Post by gabbidonsphysio on Oct 24, 2011 22:53:49 GMT
Ironically it was Dave Jones, who probably wasn't watching the Russia game as it was about 2 days after the two of them almost got into a fist fight over Paul Parry's availability. Paul Parry for Christ's sake!
Its amazing how quickly woulds can heal when there's a bit of Sky Sports cash on the table.
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Post by flynnfan on Oct 26, 2011 20:37:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2011 20:45:00 GMT
How many caps did Nyatanga get from Tosh? Apparently he is out of his depth at Bristol City, who are as poor a side as you can find in the championship
Tosh started alright but he ultimately took us backwards and turned us into a laughing stock. He may have brought youngsters through but he did so injudiciously, giving any old sod with Welsh heritage under the age of 21 a chance to get hold of caps they never earnt.
Defensive tactics, the inability to get a shot on goal, fannying about and trying to sell it to the fans as 'attractive' continental football........the guy was a total and utter failure.
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Post by raptor on Oct 26, 2011 21:44:38 GMT
Tosh took the kick and rush out of us.
Tosh got rid of some right moaning tits.
Tosh gave youth and lots of it a chance.
Tosh deserves credit.
Big man management issues spoiled the project.
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